Is it doo wop, vocal group harmony, street corner harmony or what??

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

This could be an interesting discussion. How do you define the term "doo wop"?

The artists who performed the songs call it R&B. Authors of books on the subject have different definitions. People who love the music define it differently.

I can tell you, my boss, Eugene Pitt [[Jive Five) says no one has ever given him a satisfactory definition of the term. Little Anthony of The Imperials hates the term and says he's never sung a note of doo wop in his life. He says he sings R&B.

The term doo wop was coined in the 1970's by a DJ named Gus Gossert, long after the songs often called doo wop were recorded.

With the above in mind, how do you define "doo wop". I'll save my definition until I've read some of yours.

Thanks.

~~Mary~~

[Jerry Oz]

Great question, and one that I'm hardly able to answer to my own satisfaction, let alone yours. But I'd start by suggesting that any R&B/Rock song that bases its rhythm as much on three-part [[or more) background harmony is a great way to start my definition.

[skooldem1]

The term "doo-wop" is credited to have first appeared in print in 1961 in the Chicago Defender, when fans of the music coined the term during the height of a vocal harmony resurgence.[2] The phrase was attributed to radio disc jockey Gus Gossert but Gossert suggested "doo-wop[[p) was already in use [before me] to categorize the music in California."[3]

I found this on wikipedia. The link below has more information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doo-wop

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

Hi Jerry,

I agree. It is very difficult to define and I've asked the same question in other places. I've never seen two people define it exactly the same, even among authors who have written books on the subject.

I tend to think of "doo wop" as more of an era than a true musical genre. I agree with my boss and others who call it R&B, vocal group harmony or street corner harmony. Some DJ's and other officiandos refuse to call the music "doo wop", preferring the other terms instead. Felix Hernandez always refers to the music as street corner harmony.

The late Ronnie Italiano, who founded the United Group Harmony Association [[UGHA), always called the music vocal group harmony. He is considered one of the true experts on the music and brought many of the groups who retired, or were no longer working, back to the forefront through his organization and by putting on shows.

~~Mary~~

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

[QUOTE=skooldem1;149171]The term "doo-wop" is credited to have first appeared in print in 1961 in the Chicago Defender, when fans of the music coined the term during the height of a vocal harmony resurgence.[2] The phrase was attributed to radio disc jockey Gus Gossert but Gossert suggested "doo-wop[[p) was already in use [before me] to categorize the music in California."[3]

Hi skooldem,

I've seen the wikipedia definition before and noticed they used a number of sources to put their write up together. I have some of those books and no two authors agree completely about the definition.

Gus Gossert may not have coined the term, as he points out, but the use of the term was not common until he used it in the 1970's, when most of the artists who recorded the music were no longer recording.

Thanks for posting the link. There's a lot of information in there to give folks some food for thought regarding the question.

~~Mary~~

[robb_k]

I heard the term, "Doo Wop", around 1959 or 1960, referring to vocal group harmony ballads.

I would call it "R & B Vocal Group Harmony" .

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

Hi robb,

You and I are in agreement. The term "R&B Vocal Group Harmony" is a much more accurate description of the music.

Street corner harmony is an acceptable description of acappella and those groups who literally began singing on street corners, but R&B vocal group harmony is inclusive of all the music from that era.

~~Mary~~

[juicefree20]

No matter what they call it, it will always be good old R&B. I do believe that this is made somewhat cloudier due to the Pop groups who adopted the style. You have some Doo Wop that has an R&B sensibility & you have Doo Wop that seems to have more of a Pop sensibility.

But no matter what side it leans toward, you've got to admit that this is some great music & the vocal skills of the vast majority of the Doo Wop groups have held up extremely well.

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

Hi juice,

You make an excellent point. Some of the music does have more of a pop sensibility. Groups like Dion & The Belmonts, Jimmy Beaumont & The Skyliners, Larry Chance & The Earls, Johnny Maestro & The Crests/Brooklyn Bridge, Randy & The Rainbows and The Duprees and others fit into that catagory.

The vocal skills of the groups and the lead singers have held up well and some of the greatest singers come from old R&B. To name just a few off the top of my head ~~ Jackie Wilson, Clyde McPhatter, Rudy West, Johnny Maestro, Hank Ballard, Anthony Gourdine and Eugene Pitt.

In those days you really had to be able to sing. I know Eugene has told me about appearances where they could do up to 5 shows a day with very little down time in between. Not for the faint of heart or voice!

~~Mary~~

[imnokid]

I've always called Group harmony singing R&B if by black groups, and doo wop if by whites.

[Soul Sister]

Hey Mary,
You already know how I feel, lol, and I agree with you it's not a genre but more specific to the era during the 1950's.
If I'm understanding Juice, we too are on the same page only you said it more diplomatic than I would put it.
Kevin, yes, my thoughts exactly.
My opinion don't mean anything but having lived during those times here's how I look at it.......
*** Jump Blues had a baby it was called Rock & Roll, a term coined by Alan Freed [[sung 'mostly' by white acts who admired Blues singers, Jump Blues & Rhythm & Blues Artists). They say "Imitation is the strongest form of flattery".
*** R & B [[urban street corner harmony) had a baby and some D.J. called it Doo-Wop [[which is to me is white harmonizing groups such as The Duprees, The Mello-Kings, etc...along with the groups Mary named, which are mostly Italian guys from the city but not exclusively Italian). Some of these groups range from very good to boring.
Great "R & B" groups who sang on the corner where idolized by the Doo-Wop groups [[ again "imitation is the strongest form of flattery"). Great R & B Groups like The Moonglows & Spaniels [[blow style harmony), The Harptones, The Heartbeats, The Flamingoes, & The Dells, along with the great R&B groups Mary mentioned who were among the best!
Urban blues & urban R&B came straight out of the hood [[or the inner-cities) sung by black Artists.
*** To me R&B was the originator for the sub-catagory Doo-Wop, even though I think of Doo-Wop as an era specific to certain groups, today it's gotten so twisted that people think it's actually a genre. Go figure? No,the genre is and has always been R&B [[once called race music).
R & B groups from mid 1940's [[as in The Five Keys) to the mid 1960's as in groups like Little Anthony & The Imperials, The Jive Five, The Manhattans, The MadLads, & The Intruders among the best, to name a few.
Just my humble opinion born out of my experiences.

,
S.S.
***

[soulster]

It's all just R&B. Perhaps the term "doo wop" just makes some people feel more comfortable about it being R&B, allows them to separate themselves from it. In other words, they are running away from it's Blackness, just like when they took the "roll" out of rock, and changed it from "R&B" to "disco", and then to "dance".

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

All great comments. Thank you, imnokid, Soul Sister and soulster.

The issue for me is I don't think "doo wop" is a musical genre, but some try to make it such. I think vocal group harmony is a musical genre.

Some authors say it goes all the way back to barbershop quartets. They all include the Black & the White groups we've talked about. The general consensus is so-called doo wop began in the 1940's with groups like the Mills Brothers and the Ink Spots. I would call the Mills Brothers a jazz vocal group harmony group, not a "doo wop" group. That gets to the heart of my objection to the term "doo wop" as a musical genre, rather than an era as part of vocal group harmony, which to me is the musical genre.

I agree the term R&B vocal group harmony applies more to Black groups, and pop vocal group harmony applies more to the White groups who recorded during a period from the 1940's to the early 1960's. Again, that time period goes along with my thinking that "doo wop" is more of an era than a musical genre.

I think all the terms are an effort to define a specialized style as vocal group harmony evolved from the days of the barbershop quartets.

I knew this make an interesting discussion and I thank all of you for your thoughtful contributions. I hope we hear from more members of the forum. You all know your music!!

~~Mary~~

[paladin]

Interesting thread, I really don't have a definition but I know it when I hear it. To me the emphasis of songs that were labeled doo-wop always highlighted the voices, both the lead and certainly the background harmony over the music that accompanied the tune. I've always considered it a style of singing more than anything else. I wrote some things years ago suggesting and simultaneously asking the question , Did The Temptations Kill Doo-wop? I was met with some very interesting replies, most notably that "No they didn't, it was the Drifters" ...which at the time I asked the question, it was something I had not considered.

The genesis of my question was based upon The Temptations recording of "Baby, Baby, I Need You" which to those of you that are familiar will certainly realize that song has doo-wop written all over it, moreover they never made another record like it , nor did you hear doo-wop styled songs on the radio. They went into songs like The Way You Do The Things you Do, Girl Why You Wanna Make me Blue, My Girl, Don't Look Back etc.......and for me that's when the music changed. They could sing doo-wop styled songs with the best of them , but when the train left the station they were sitting with the engineer. Just a thought.........

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

Hi paladin,

The style of singing and the lack of heavy instumentation with emphasis on the voices is a good description IMO. Style is what it's all about, and there are several within the genre vocal group harmony. \

"The genesis of my question was based upon The Temptations recording of "Baby, Baby, I Need You" which to those of you that are familiar will certainly realize that song has doo-wop written all over it, moreover they never made another record like it , nor did you hear doo-wop styled songs on the radio. They went into songs like The Way You Do The Things you Do, Girl Why You Wanna Make me Blue, My Girl, Don't Look Back etc.......and for me that's when the music changed. They could sing doo-wop styled songs with the best of them , but when the train left the station they were sitting with the engineer. Just a thought......... "

It's a thought I tend to agree with and feel "doo wop" is more an era than a seperate genre of music. Also, very few of the doo wop era groups continued to record. Those that did, changed with the times to transition into soul, disco and other types of music.

Eugene Pitt & The Jive Five are one of the few groups who transitioned. Eugene even changed the name from The Jive Five several times because he knew DJ's wouldn't play their songs under the original name. Eugene and various members of his group recorded under the names Ebony, Ivory & Jade, and as Sting [[during the disco era). They recorded soul and disco songs when most of the doo wop era groups did not. The Manhattans are another example of a group that transitioned and changed with the times.

Aaron Neville's new album "My True Story" is a hit and bringing some new audiences and attention to classic vocal group harmony songs and artists. He plans on doing 3 more albums with songs from the "doo wop" era. Aaron and producers Don Was & Keith Richards deserve a lot of credit for their efforts.

~~Mary~~

[marv2]

we always used the term "Doo Wops" in Detroit.

[mickeymac]

You know how it goes, its just a name to describe a music. I think the "doo wop" comes from the "boom, boom, dip dip, be bom, bang shang" etc. they sing on the records. I guess, I really dont know, I just listen to the records. I guess it makes it easier for people who are looking for certain records from the 50's and 60's.

[paladin]

Those that did, changed with the times to transition into soul, disco and other types of music.

Great word "transition" I knew I was missing something that would communicate what I wrote a lil better, thanks for the feedback.

Kdubya

[Soul Sister]

"Sha-Boom!" would have been better, from the Cord's 1954 record on the Cat label.

,
S.S.
***

[tjl]

I think there's a lot of truth in the thoughts shared on this thread - Juice as Soulster nailed it - - to me "Doo Wop" is an era in terms of today's branding - - but more then anything, it's a feeling.

That feeling you get when you hear The Harptones, The Moonglows, and The 5 Keys as R&B pioneer vocal groups that give you that same "feeling" when Nolan Strong & The Diablos sing "Since You've Gone". But to me, the evolution of that same "feeling" grows [[like a snow ball rolling) into The Miracles harmonizing "You Can Depend On Me", "I Cry" or of course, Claudette's lead on "After All".

Maybe more refined later in the 60s with songs like "The Stars" from The Ocapellas or "Together" from The Intruders and the ballads of The Dells [[both times around) but to me, doo wop is usually songs about love - what we long for it to be, what it would be like and what it means to each of us to share a connection with other souls in life.

Sure there's fast and fun tunes, and non-sensical lyrics that took the place of instruments - - [[one of my favorites -- Oodly Papa Cow, Papa Cow Cow) Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers, The Valentines, The Chantels, The Shirelles, early Marvelettes, early Orlons, early Tempts, The Originals, The Penguins, The Spaniels, The Drifters ..and The Drifters, The Heartbeats - they all have their vibe, pace and place in the genre.

Joe Grier & The Charts were here a couple days ago recording a new DVD with me - I think of "Deserie", "Dance Girl Dance" and "Zoop" as much of the era as The Cadillacs, The Cleftones & The Marcels. I'm also working on a "Reflections" DVD. Hearing these guys sing "Now The Parting Begins" brings to me that same feeling as Robert & Johnny singing "We Belong Together" or Don & Juan singing "What's Your Name" or The Dreamlovers & The Quinn-tones harmonies.

And of course the local NY/NJ and Philly pop groups from the Passions to The 4 J's, The Elegants to The Skyliners, The Duprees to The Rivieras. Gene Pitt & The Jive 5 with "These Golden Rings" and of course his "True Story". Somehow over the years - - whether more pop or to my personal tatses, more classic vocal group R&B..... these tunes now all fit together - - to those like us, that "get" and have "the feeling"....

[Soul Sister]

Well put, tjl.

S.S.
***

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

Excellent comments all. Thank you, marv2, mickeymac, paladin, S.S. and tjl.

Hi tj,

You hit the nail on the head with the comment "more than anything, it's a feeling". The doo wop era takes us back to our childhood and teenage years when everything seemed so much more simple, polite and less complicated. We all have great memories of those days and the nostalgic feelings that go with it.

The love songs with pretty melodies, sweet lyrics and great vocals have stood the test of time, with many becomming classics. Even the songs with some "naughty" lyrics like the Dominos "Sixty Minute Man" touched us where we lived. We had fun and good feelings with all those songs.

Thank you, tj, for your efforts in keeping the music alive with all the wonderful PBS specials you have produced. You allowed the nation to see many groups they hadn't seen or heard from for decades I have them all on video or DVD.

Thank you all. I have to figure a way to post this thread on Facebook where I have lots of friends who love the music. Everyone who posted has given some food for thought.

~~Mary~~