I wasn't suggesting Zimmerman didn't have good sense, I don't know anything about the man other than what I've read and I've heard good as well as bad.
Personally, I think we need to concentrate more on the law that may have contributed to all of this. Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not, whether kids should wear hoodies or listen to certain types of music shouldn't be the dominant issue. After all my years on this earth, talking about who is and who isn't a racist hasn't changed a damn thing. We can't legislate away hate but we need to pay more attention to the things that ARE being legislated....that's something we can change if we are proactive as oppose to reactive.
Last edited by jillfoster; 03-25-2012 at 01:05 AM.
...or, extremely over zealous....again, I don't know the mental state of Zimmerman, I can assume all kinds of things based on what he's done but to say for certain what his problem is, I'm not even going to try and speculate at this point.
The other day I was telling a friend about someone I knew a long time ago. She joined the police academy and went through all the training. The last test had to do with some kind of simulation about distinguishing the bad guys from the good.....in the simulation she emptied her revolver on the good guys...not a good thing to do and she ended up sitting at a desk as oppose to having a revolver on the street. This was years ago and I don't know what happened to her but I do know up until that point I thought she was quite sane and rational. Thank goodness it was only a simulation but this is someone I never would think would be irrational but yet...she showed irrational behavior. Zimmerman's state of mind is for a judge and jury to decide ....IF...we ever get to that point and we all should get involved to help it get to that point but we need to stay focus and stop letting the BS sidetrack us. As the saying goes, concentrate on the things we can change, not the things we can't. That's how I see it but people will do, what people will do....shrugs
Goodnight JillFoster, I'm out.
Last edited by Roberta75; 03-25-2012 at 01:34 AM.
The bastard never even tried to help Martin after he shot him. So much for Sean Hannity's outrageous "accidental shooting" theory. It also blows away the "self-defense" argument.
'I’m telling you that my mission is to save kids’ lives in the real world,' Rivera said | AP Photo
By MJ LEE | 3/23/12 1:51 PM EDT
Geraldo Rivera said his son Gabriel is “ashamed” of Rivera’s controversial comments about Trayvon Martin and his hoodie from earlier in the day, the Fox News host admitted to POLITICO.
“Gabriel broke my heart. He’s my oldest, 32, and he just told me that for the first time in his life he’s ashamed of what I wrote on [Fox News Latino],” Rivera said in an email.
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Rivera touched off a media firestorm when he said on “Fox & Friends” and his blog that Martin — who was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain last month — wouldn’t have been attacked if he had not been wearing a hoodie.
“I am urging the parents of black and Latino youngsters particularly to not let their children go out wearing hoodies,” the Fox News host said. “I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”
In his long monologue on the air, Rivera had mentioned his other son, 24-year-old Cruz. “When you see a kid walking down the street, particularly a dark-skinned kid like my son Cruz, who I constantly yelled at when he was going out wearing a damn hoodie or those pants around his ankles,” he said, before penning an article that appeared on the Fox News Latino website soon after.
In his email to POLITICO, Rivera said that he tried his best to convey to Gabriel where he was coming from.
“I wrote him, and I’m telling you that my mission is to save kids’ lives in the real world,” the Fox News host said. “We can bluster and posture all day long about the injustice of it all, but despite what Roland Martin or even my son Gabriel Miguel Rivera says, every hoodie should come with a warning like cigarettes, ‘caution wearing this could get you killed.’”
But Gabriel didn’t respond well to his father’s explanation.
“Gabriel wrote back to say I’ve gone viral for all the wrong reasons,” Rivera wrote in another email, with an unhappy face icon at the end of the sentence.
But despite his son’s reaction (Cruz, unlike his older brother, isn’t mad at him about the comments, Rivera said), the TV and radio personality said he has no intention of taking back what he said. “No I don’t retract a word of it because I’m concerned with saving kids’ lives.” he said.
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FOX News Irresponsibly Selling Dangerous Hoodies
I can't believe FOX News is still selling these. posted about 2 days ago
UPDATE: It looks FOX News has pulled their insanely dangerous sweatshirt! The world is a safer place!
You will note that Geraldo said black and latino youth shouldn't wear hoodies. It's all good with him if a caucasion fellow does so. With that being said, if I see a brother wearing a Fox Network hoodie, I will have to stifle the impulse to smack him, myself.
Alot of people of the older generation are sick and tired of everything they fought for, and marched for, and sometimes died for to just be thrown away like a used tampon because today's youth want to act like thugs, or they can STILL be good kids, but want to LOOK like thugs and act tough. It is a big problem, and nobody want to step up and admit it, theyr'e all a bunch of pussies who want to shift the blame to everyone else. But SOME people want to take responsibility, and get the community to straighten up and fly right
JillFoster, two things.....I have always found it annoying when a White person trouts out Bill Cosby to highlight their POV....I'm not impressed with a Black person doing it either. He's just one Black man, with one opinion...he's not the soul-keeper of Black thought.....two....I have a suggestion, not a demand but a simple suggestion.
There are groups and organizations all over the country working together
to make sure the pressure and spotlight stays on this case in order to
investigate the law, the Sandford Police Dept and to see Zimerman behind bars
and stand trial….why not place your energy and resources on that as oppose
to trying to dictate what people should wear….and on a side note, I thought about
you today as I put on my hoodie and walked out the house to do errands…sue
but...if you want to focus on hoodies, music and all that jazz...go right ahead...don't see how it will bring justice to Trevon, but do what you gotta do.
No, Ms. M... it won't bring justice to him. Absolutely not. but if one voice becomes another, then another... that is how change is affected, and maybe another boy in the future will not have his life cut short by some nutball. Having said that, that Stand your ground law may be the thing that lets Zimmerman walk... but tell me, if that law didn't exist, do you think Zimmerman would not have fired on the boy? I think he still would have. I just don't want the "Castle doctrine" to be thrown out in a knee jerk reaction to this. People tend to get all emotional and throw the baby out with the bathwater. BTW... do you have a person that you consider to be the soul-keeper of black thought?
Last edited by jillfoster; 03-25-2012 at 11:23 PM.
JillFoster, all to often young Black men are gunned down because their Black not because they are wearing a hoodie...Mr Cosby's son was wearing a rolex watch at the time of his murder....time to speak out against Rolex watches too.
BTW.. We all have out beliefs and thoughts, I can agree, I can disagree but I speak for me.
Last edited by jillfoster; 03-25-2012 at 11:36 PM.
JillFoster I truly believe it's dangerous and downright ignorant to say a young man can't dress in the manner he feels without getting killed...hell, being Black will get you killed, being gay will get you killed, being a Muslim will get you killed, being in the wrong place at the wrong time will get you killed....it's about the person pulling the trigger Jill Foster...
I don't care for the style of dress a lot of people sport but I don't going around killing people because of it...do you?
JillFoster, you need to get out more often. I can think of a dozen young men that wear that garb and are doing very well in school...many of them on the honor role....I can think of twice that many who wear suits doing the week and that garb on the weekends and they are doing quite well for themselves too....how can that be JillFoster?
I get the dress for success and impress mantra but the idea you're pushing does nothing but confirm the ideas of way too many ignorant people who shoot first and judge later. You want to help a young bother, then become a mentor, help him to understand the importance of personal responsibility and an education....focus on those things and everything else will fall into place...focus on the way he dresses and I'll guarantee he tunes you out.
We live in a country where we are 12% of the population, the perception of us has always been skrewed!
Last edited by jillfoster; 03-26-2012 at 12:11 AM.
We have an extremely intelligent Black man holding the highest office in this country...he wears mom jeans but no hoodie and has received more death threats than any president in history...why do you think that is JillFoster?
I always enjoy debating you JillFoster, you stand up for what you believe in and can take as well as you give. I respect that. No worries about the Bitch or the Ms...I define me, no words or anyone else.
Mom jeans?? ROFL.
Steve, the extreme right has been working to push the Republican party further to the right for years. We were too busy focusing on the BS to notice and in 2010 it came back to bite us in the arse.
Of course they did! Their hoodie now conflicts with their narrative!UPDATE: It looks FOX News has pulled their insanely dangerous sweatshirt! The world is a safer place!
The woman who threw flour at the talentless Kim Kardashian got arrested but the man who killed Trayvon Martin roams free? There is something very wrong with this picture.
Wow.. she threw flour and got arrested? That is ridiculous.
My main problem with your contention Jill Foster, is that I don't personally see a hoodie as the dress of thugs. Interestingly, Treyvon Martin had his hood on in the rain, which I think is reasonable. I see dozens of college kids wearing them around campuses and, black or white, none of them strikes me as "dressing like thugs". I guess it's the context of who is whering the clothing combined with where they are. That being said, Zimmerman saw a black kid in a hoodie in HIS neighborhood and that raised his radar. I'm thinking the hoodie only reinforced his idea that he was a crook; had he been wearing a leisure suit, it wouldn't have discouraged the incident.
Joe Oliver. Remember that name. IF you have not heard it yet, you will. Mr. Oliver was n MSNBC this afternoon with Chris Matthews. He is a personal friend of George Zimmerman. He claims that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor. He claims that Trayvon threw a punch that broke Zimmerman's nose which caused Zimmerman to fear for his life, which in turned caused him to shoot the kid dead.
I wasn't surprised to see them find the "black" friend whom would speak out to tell us how ''wonderful'' Mr. Zimmerman is. Nor was I surprised to see the latest argument offered by Zimmerman's lawyer that he was assaulted.
It's all bullshit.
Here's a question that the good lawyer & everyone else has to answer in order to satisfy me...
If Zimmerman had the right to stand his ground while taking it upon himself to play mall cop, didn't Trayvon have the right to stand HIS own ground against someone whom was following him AGAINST the suggestion of the police dispatcher?
And if as was reported Zimmerman was following him in a car, then exactly how & why did it come to be that Zimmerman found himself on the OUTSIDE of his car so that Trayvon could've attacked him, as he asserts?
By this stupid law, if Zimmerman got out of his car to confront Trayvon, did not Trayvon also reserve the right to stand his ground? And considering the fact that this guy took it upon himself to follow this "DANGEROUS" young man who was armed with a pack of Skittles, is it unreasonable to take it one step further & take an educated guess that he got out of his car seeking to be confrontational simply because he knew that he was packing a gun & believed that that stupid law would protect him should matters escalate?
If he was so deeply concerned about where the young man was going, why didn't he keep his silly ass in his car & simply follow him as he had been doing all along?
Perhpas he'd have gotten the answer to his question, but perhaps that wouldn't have proven satisfactory to him, as he had his own agenda all along?
This law is stupid because it gives anyone with mental issues, or simply an agenda of their own ammunition to shoot anyone of their choosing, simply due to "threats" both real or imagined, or simply someone whom they don't like, counting on this law to bail them out, as is obviously the case here.
And why is it always the case that this kind of crap only seems to happen to people of color? And were it not for the internet, this whole thing would likely have been swept under the rug.
As for those pointing out that Zimmerman is of mixed ethnicity, that means absolutely NOTHING. People of ANY ethnicity can be bigots & have racist tendencies. He didn't shoot another hispanic, he shot a young UNARMED black male. So his ethnicity is of little import to me because it's for damn certain that Zimmerman isn't black. And if his remark "They always get away with it" doesn't speak to his mindset & possible agenda, then exactly what does.
Exactly who are the "THEY" to whom he was referring...The Smurfs?
How long will people choose to make excuses for & defend the indefensible?
Now for Geraldo's dumb-assed statement because he really shouldve known better.
As I recall it, most of the horifficaly heinous crimes have been committed NOT by black kids wearing hoodies, but by some wearing 3 piece-suits & some kids wearing trenchcoats or dressed like Rambo.
So should we see a kid dressed in a trenchcoat, should someone automatically assume that he or she is about to blow up their school & blow out their brains because other kids wearing trenchcoats tried to wipe out their school(s)?
Just wondering where we draw the line as regards the clothing profile angle?
The bottomline is: He (Zimmerman) chased that kid down and shot him like an animal. He had no regard for the pleading for his life, for help. He shot him anyway! He would not shoot a dog that way.
One more thing, when Chris Matthews brought up the part of the tape where Zimmerman mutters "F-ing Coon", Mr. Oliver tried to explain that away as not being racist. He said that it and the term "goon" are terms of endearment in areas like Louisiana and in general among young adults. So, based on his comments, are we now t o assume that Mr. Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon Martin with a gun to show him love?
Joe Oliver will be on 'Countdown With Keith Olbermann' tonight. He is getting entirely too much air time. The bottom line, as has been pointed out above several times, is that if Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car none of this would be going on. He should go back where he came from and shut up! He was not there that night and has nothing to base his statements on.
As I said, it's B.S. & the trotting out of a "black" guy to prove that a suspect couldn't possibly have racist tendencies is as old as the episode of Batman when Batman & Robin were fighting Kato & The Green Hornet & ended up as postage stamps & is equally as ludicrous.
And Oliver should've understood exactly why & how he was being used & should be ashamed of allowing himself to be used in such a manner.
And even if Zimmerman IS NOT a racist, the mere mention of the hoodie indicates that he harbors fears which are based upon race. If not that, then perhaps watching one too many "hood" movies, many of which WERE NOT written by blacks, or watching one too many music videos...videos which are not bankrolled by BLACKS, but by music conglomerates whom are guilty of pushing the negative envelope, so some can make of that what they will.
Regardless of how they try to spin this, it still seems to point the finger of guilt toward Mr. Zimmerman.
If they're going to try to invoke the right for him to stand his ground, then as he was the aggressor in following Trayvon, then it would appear as though the one whom had the right to stand his ground was Trayvon, as he was the one being pursued, would it not?
So, according to that law, it would appear as though if there were anyone whom had the right to shoot, it would've been Trayvon, as by their law, he would've been standing his ground against someone whom was actively pursuing HIM, not the other way around.
One of the criteria which is used in most shootings is "retreat". Most laws trip up people who shoot people in the back because the back being turned is an indicator that the victim is not being aggressive, as running away tends to be a passive movement. If Trayvon was walking away from Zimmerman, then Zimmerman is the one who's guilty of being aggressive. Note that at no point during the call to the dispatcher did Zimmerman suggest that Trayvon had confronted him, but rather that he (Zimmerman) was FOLLOWING Trayvon.
If Zimmerman was following Trayvon, then that would mean that whatever ground he believed himself to holding was ground that he willingly gave up the moment that he pursued Trayvon. In this case, common sense would dictate that as the pursued, Trayvon had the right to defend himself against someone whom was pursuing him for no reason other than the fact that he wanted to pursue Trayvon, or one of the voices inside of his head told him that Trayvon was a threat. Which didn't make it true for anyone other than himself. Even if he got out of that car & got punched in the head, Trayvon had every right to defend himself against some self-appointed Dudley Do Right who took it upon himself to walk up on a perfect stranger.
The pack of Skittles pretty much says it all, as does the old expression that if you give someone a rope, then he wants to be a cowboy..
Last edited by juicefree20; 03-26-2012 at 09:16 PM.
And as usually is the case, they've decided to attempt to demonize the victim by leaking a story that Trayvon had been arrested & them finding a trace of marijuana in his backpack, as though that has anything to do with this case. Hell, if they demonize everyone who's ever had a joint, then much of the free world would be in shackles right now.
Including some reporters, tv commentators & law enforcement agents.
That is nothing more than yet another shameless attempt to demonize a victim, as if mentioning that makes him the equivalent of Babyface Nelson or Nino Brown.
Frankly, it's disgusting, but unfortunately, it's nothing new. We've been here before. I can only imagine how the story would be written if the roles had been reversed & we all know what we'd be reading, as well as how it would be reported & there would be no excuses being made if Trayvon had been the one holding the gun.
All that I can say is that I hope Mr. Zimmerman drinks from the cup which he poured, the stupid law should be repealed & anyone who thinks that any of this is perfectly alright, then may they reap what they sow because their silence & acquiesence is a major part of the problem.
Enough of this crap is enough.
Well Jill/David, this is the first I ‘ve heard that your yahoo account was hacked by somebody and they used your account to make racial epithets against Susaye. Did you ever find out who the culprit was?
Back on topic, it doesn’t matter what he was wearing, Zimmerman saw a young black man and made a judgement, the first of many wrong choices that night. If he had just called the Police and then back off we wouldn’t be talking about this. The kid would either have been home before the cops came or else it would have been an ugly little incident that would have been an item on the local news at most. But Zimmerman took it to the extreme level because he profiled and reached the wrong conclusion.
Also I disagree with your assertion that the civil rights movement became unpopular with whites because African American youth embraced hip hop. Civil rights encountered resistance from the get go. And in the mid to late 60’s many additional whites, who may have not had objections to the goals of the early 60’s Southern movement to integrate buses and lunch counters, turned against the movement when it went North and took on issues related to economic injustice and lack of political power within African American communities.
You rightly bring up the 'trace of marijuana' in Trayvon's backpack. My question, rhetorical, is which is worse, marijuana, or assaulting a police officer, as Zimmerman had been accused of.
From what I've been reading, as well as some of the excuses being offered up, as long as he WAS NOT wearing a hoodie, then he was no threat to said officer.
Piggy-backing on what Smark said, the timeline for that is off.
Rap wasn't recognized by most & in fact most of the people whom you're speaking of didn't even know that Rap existed until "Rapper's Delight" came out in late 1979. Hip-Hop as we know it wasn't really a common phrase until the early part of the 80s, after good old "Reganomics" was in full swing.
Even prior to that, documentaries drive home the point that Civil Rights was never really popular with people who simply didn't understand why "those" people wanted to make trouble & make them look like "bad" people for wanting things to remain as they had always been.
As I recall it, they didn't seem to understand why we couldn't simply wait for that change to come & many of them had to be dragged kicking & screaming out of 1937 or thereabouts.
For reference, google up the progressive areas of my city known as Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Howard Beach, Gravesend & you'll notice that when they speak or post pictures of the "good old days", you'll discover a definite lack of color, as they too, wish that things could go back to the way that they were...
Or to paraphrase Machine, "no Blacks, no Jews, no Gays, no Asians, no Latinos, no East Indians, etc., etc., etc".
Unfortunately, I imagine that such rhetoric can be found in all such neighborhoods of the 50 states when reflecting upon those days & a perusal of just about any internet board or forum bears this out.
Not to mention the nasty statements which are written whenever any innocent young gay or person of color are murdered in the streets of "Anytown, USA".
Man, this whole story gets sadder and sadder and makes me angry the more I hear of the details. Sean Bell, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, that young man in the Bronx last month....Emmit Till! So, so many more that were murdered and mamed for no apparent reason other than their skin color/ race.
This guy George Zimmerman was not standing his ground when decided to pursue Trayvon. When he shot and killed him, it was not in self-defense, it was out of pure hatred. I am sure he really began to see red when this innocent kid did whatever he could to defend himself from a grown man outweighing him by 100-125 lbs. What kind of person can listen to and look at another human being screaming and begging for mercy and shoot them anyway with a 9mm gun? How can you develop that much hate in such a short timeframe for a complete stranger?
Why black people don't trust the police
By LZ Granderson, CNN Contributor
CNN) -- I don't trust cops and I don't know many black people who do. I respect them. I sympathize with them. I am appreciative of the work they do.
But when you've been pulled over for no good reason as many times as I have; when you've been in handcuffs for no good reason as many times as I have; when you run out to buy some allergy medication and upon returning home, find yourself surrounded by four squad cars with flashing lights and all you can think about is how not to get shot, you learn not to trust cops.
The first instance of injustice surrounding the Trayvon Martin tragedy occurred February 26, the night George Zimmerman decided to pursue, confront and ultimately shoot and kill Martin. The second started the moment the Sanford police failed to properly investigate what, given the 911 tapes, is clearly a questionable claim of self-defense made by Zimmerman. But seeing that Martin's parents were forced to sue the police department just to hear the tapes, it seems as if Zimmerman isn't the only questionable component in this case.
Thursday, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee stepped down "temporarily." On Wednesday, Sanford city commissioners had voted "no confidence" in him.
But at a town hall meeting hosted by the NAACP on Tuesday, Sanford's black residents said they lost confidence in the police long before because of the extensive history of prejudicial treatment in the area.
Law enforcement isn't easy. In fact, it is extremely dangerous. But that in no way excuses improper procedure and lies. And given the amount of effort put forth by the Sanford chief to exonerate Zimmerman, a volunteer neighborhood watchman with a history of 911 calls that suggests paranoia, versus efforts to find out the truth, it sure feels like another case of racial profiling and police trying to cover up an impropriety. The shooter may not have been a police officer, but the story of how the police handled this case is oh-so-familiar.
It's the same story the nation heard from blacks in Los Angeles surrounding the 1991 Rodney King beating.
It's the same story heard from blacks in New York City surrounding the murder of Amadou Diallo, who was only carrying his wallet when he was shot 41 times by four plainclothes policemen in 1999.
That same story was heard in New Orleans, where black men were shot and killed for sport by police officers off the Danziger Bridge in 2005. The police department covered it up for two years before any arrests were made. Charges were even initially dismissed by the district judge before the Justice Department got involved and finally, last summer, officers were convicted.
And people wonder where the impetus behind NWA's "___ the Police" came from. I'll tell you where it came from. It came from knowing there are far more stories like Trayvon Martin's that the world never hears about. In fact, we almost didn't hear about this one. The nation heard the 911 tapes from last month's tragic shooting at Chardon High School in Ohio within 24 hours of the incident. Martin's parents had to file a lawsuit before they could hear the ones in this case.
If the police department had done everything it was supposed to do, if it was truly "PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time" as the letter released by the city manager states, then why hold back until there is national media attention?
The letter said the department was still investigating the case and didn't want to compromise it, but the authorities never brought Zimmerman in for questioning. They still haven't. They tested Martin's body for drugs and alcohol, but not Zimmerman's. The only person with a weapon was Zimmerman. Martin was unarmed.
Just like the victims in New Orleans, Diallo, King. ...
In 2010, the family of Sean Bell was awarded $7 million by the city of New York after five police officers sprayed his car with more than 50 bullets, killing him. He was unarmed and to be married the next day.
"No amount of money can provide closure, no amount of money can make up for the pain," his fiancee, Nicole Paultre Bell, said after the ruling. "We'll just try to learn how to live with it and move on."
Those are words members of the black community have to say to each other far too many times when it comes to treatment by the police.
I wish more commentators would speak on this Juice. The author of that bill and many Repubs tried to run from that daymn law but I knew it was going to come into play.If they're going to try to invoke the right for him to stand his ground, then as he was the aggressor in following Trayvon, then it would appear as though the one whom had the right to stand his ground was Trayvon, as he was the one being pursued, would it not?
And that article illustrates perfectly why these folks shouldn't continually adopt the "Circle the wagons" posture that they always do.
As pointed out, law enforcement is an extremely difficult job & must sometimes feel like a thankless job. Which is exactly why bad apples need to be weeded-out, rather than defended. The actions of a few bad apples tends to ruin the good work of the majority. And when good are always placed in the position of automatically defending the wrong deeds of a few, it leads to the distrust that we see today.
I defy anyone to show me decades worth of history where black or latino officers can kill unarmed, innocent whites & have their actions AUTOMATICALLY defended by not just their peers, but their city officials.
Please, someone...ANYONE direct me to where I can find decades worth of unarmed whites being murdered by police officers & I'll change my opinion & apologize.
But no one can provide such information because there are no decades worth of these "accidental" shootings occurring because those communities would never allow that to be the case & we all know that. But the attitudes of many here in America has proven that the lives of young black males means next-to-nothing. And for the record, this attitude CANNOT be blamed on Rap music,''hood'' movies, hoodies, nor any other such b.s., as the murder of Michael Stewart occurred before ''hood'' movies were a blip on the consciousness of America. Rap videos weren't being made just yet & "hood'' movies weren't & images of angry, dangerous, predatory, black males hadn't been presented to mainstream America via Rap videos & "hood'' movies.
And that crap is always defended now, just as was defended back in 1967 when The Algiers Motel Incident saw Detroit erupt in flames.
And never...NEVER is there any accountability for these incidents & if the UNARMED, INNOCENT victim stole a pack of cookies in the 3rd grade, they'll make sure that the media gets the info, if only to show that as early as the age of 8, this kid was destined to become a bad apple.
These kinds of attitudes has been around since the days of Rosewood & sorry-assed ecuses have never been in short supply whenever something such as this occurs.
For many, it's nothing more than the equivalent of N.I.M.B.Y. x 10 squared.