The Andantes: The Motown Girl groups gave them some serious problems

**luke** · 01-09-2012, 08:09 PM

The Blossoms and Sweets seem to be holding up well.

**franjoy56** · 01-09-2012, 11:40 PM

Well lets be clear here the Supremes, The Marvelettes and Vandellas all had great hit records with their
own backing vocals covering those songs well without the andantes thank you, It was just a company

decision to make the records sound smoother or records with a choral feel. Take for instance
the songs come and get thes memories, beechwood 45789, please mr. postman, playboy, baby love, come see about me, heat wave, quicksand, nowhere to run, back in my arms again as well as the accompanying albums that accompanied these hits these songs are genuine girl group records, later on Berry and or the powers that be decided to bring the andantes in to glorify those tracks and in many cases it had already taken place on their songs but the backgrounds of the genuine singers are featured here and that is the foundation of the girl groups sound at MOTOWN, the andantes came in after the genuine sound had been created. AFTER hearing wha the Andantes did for Mary Wells records particularly the My Guy album it was inevitable that they be heard on the sups, marvs and vandellas later on as well as the velevelettes whether we like it or not, lets face it they had a beautiful sound, but it does not take away from what mary, flo, catherine, juanita, wanda, rosalind, annette, and betty created first. .

**milven** · 01-10-2012, 10:05 AM

When the Andrews Sisters recorded in the 40's, they did not have any background singers. It was just them. Patti Andrews was lead singer. In the song below, she starts out the song, but then then Maxene and LaVerne join in and sing in harmony. Their harmony and sound is distinct and unique. When they sing in harmony, they are a true group with a unique group sound.

In the fifties, the McGuire Sisters did have background singers on many of their hits. Phyllis was the lead singer, but through most of the song, her sisters Dorothy & Christine sang along side her in harmony. And again, when they sang in harmony, their sound was distinct and unique. But, in the song below, you will hear male voices singing background while the Mc Guires sing in harmony. In fact, there is even a point where the male singers are doing the lead and the Mc Guires are doing the background.

And check out how groups sang on TV back in the day. They stood side by side and sang together in harmony. When Phyllis had a solo spot, the two girls stepped back and the camera moved in on Phyllis.
Quite a difference from the Supremes when sometimes it appeared that Mary and Cindy were standing an airport field apart.

I see nothing wrong with augmenting the sound of a group with background singers. But to replace the group and have just the lead with session singers is deceptive.

And does anyone know if the three Tops are on Just Ask The Lonely ? All I hear is Levi and a bunch of woman singers.

**skooldem1** · 01-10-2012, 10:29 AM

Singers standing shoulder to shoulder while singing is so old fashioned. I'm glad this all changed during the Rock Era. If the Supremes had continued to sing this way- like on the Ed Sullivan show [[Come See about Me) that would have been sooo boring. They were a Rock act, not the Andrew sisters.

**skooldem1** · 01-10-2012, 10:34 AM

To a certain degree it most certainly does take away from the girls [[Florence and Mary). Florence more than Mary, as it turns out Florence was the one replaced most of the time, while Mary still did her vocals. We have all heard with our own ears, Florence sounding great, to Florence sounding not so great. I wonder if her problem was consistency?

**motony** · 01-10-2012, 11:10 AM

maybe it was tardiness, too busy with her large family & their needs & not focused to get to the studio on time.If a singer was late Motown sure had others to step in to sing the part.Time is money.

**stingbeelee** · 01-10-2012, 12:05 PM

Milven; the other three tops are on "Ask The Lonely" but sing lower than usual; if you listen to the accapella version of the song on the Singing Machine accapella CD's, you can hear them better.

selinasian · 01-10-2012, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by ralpht

Royalties are NOT paid to back-up singers. They are paid for the session and nothing more.

Were they paid again if their vocals were re-used? For example, I remember reading that some Supremes tracks were originally recorded by Kim Weston and the Andantes and all that was done was Diana's voice was added to the original track including the Andantes vocals.

**jobeterob** · 01-10-2012, 02:59 PM

Session singers would usually be paid for the session - come to work, you get $150 for 3 hours work. They might not have a clue where their background work would end up and perhaps the producers didn't know either.

That is how they get paid; not royalties.

A more interesting legal question might be "should a group member be paid royalties when they were not on the released record"? Their contract probably says they get paid for sales when they are on the record. So, a question might be "did Motown NOT pay the group member when they knew the Andantes were singing as opposed to Flo, Mary, Cindy, Annette, Lois, and any number of Marvelettes? Knowing Motown, they probably didn't pay them. Maybe this is what some of the disputes were about.

But as I recall Cindy and all the Vandellas other than Martha never got any royalties anyway. They were employed Supremes and Vandellas.

**skooldem1** · 01-10-2012, 03:05 PM

Well it certainly does make you wonder. Maybe that's why when Florence was kicked out of the group she only got a few thousand dollars. She wasn't on as many "records" as we think.

Cheaper to pay a flat salary for a session singer with no rights to royalties.

**1382hitsville** · 01-10-2012, 03:20 PM

The Supremes could sing harmony. Diana and Mary both has written about that in their books. Some occasions Berry was meeting some businesspartners and asked the Supremes to sing on the spot.

Here is something funny [[posted here before, but relevant to this post), the Supremes with the Andrew Sisters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgTsBsSngrc

**milven** · 01-10-2012, 04:06 PM

The Supremes sound great in harmony. Too bad they did not do it more often. They came off much better singing the Andrews songs than the Andrews singing the Supremes. I love the Supremes but wish that they sang more harmony instead of lead singer and two barely can hear miked down singers

Another great example of Supremes harmony is Mary Sherrie and Cindy singing the National Anthem without music

**motony** · 01-10-2012, 05:49 PM

one thing I noticed back in the day when Diana Ross went "solo" that there were more backgrounds singing upfront then there had been on Supremes records in a long time. getting back to the pay question...keep in mind that the money from the concert appearances went to Motown, the artists were getting a weekly check so think about all those Supremes sold out engagements & they were getting about $300.00 each a week...like Mary Wells said in the Unsung episode "Wheres all the money"?

**BayouMotownMan** · 01-10-2012, 05:50 PM

I can hear Mary and Cindy on most of the Supremes/Temptations recordings. Usually it was the Supremes with only two or three Temptations doing the backing vocals so as not the drown the girls out. The Andantes have said they recall singing on some of the duet recordings. I believe I'm Gonna Make You Love Me and Impossible Dream does have other voices, but the backgrounds are mixed so far back it's truly hard to tell.

I always felt both duet lps were sub par. I was disappointed in them at the time of their release and still rarely listen to these tracks. They were mostly unimaginative covers of predominantly Jobete songs...a windfall for Mr. Gordy. The best track to me was Why [[Must We Fall In Love). Only the Brits appreciated that song. The release of The Weight as a single was disastrous. It simply was not single material

**motown_david** · 01-10-2012, 06:22 PM

The old chestnut about the Vandellas being employed adn not receiving royalties is just not true - or at least not in the early days of their existance.

I have seen Annette Helton's original contract and she signed directly to Motown, as did Roz Holmes. Niether of the girls was employed by Martha but rather by Motown. The royalties for their tracks are still shared equally by the 3 group members and she still receives regular royalty statements for all the tracks she sings on, which go up to June 1964, when she retired from the group, as she was 6 months pregnant with Derek, her first child. Her last recording session as a Vandella was for Jimmy Mack and Third Finger Left Hand - not a bad way to finish your recording career at Motown.

I also know that Roz receives her royalty cheques regularly from Motown to this day.

Betty's first session was for Dancing In The Street a couple of weeks later. Cal Street of the Velvelettes told a very good friend of mine that she accompanied Betty to this session as she was so nervous recording as a Vandella for the first time. She was also employed directly by Motown after serving a short trial period. Betty told me this herself last year in Detroit when we had the pleasure of meeting her.

I believe that later Vandellas were employees of the group and receive no royalties from Motown, although I have no direct proof of this as I have with Annette and Roz.

It's amazing how stories become facts just because they appear on the Internet. The truth is often something quite different.

**soulballad** · 01-10-2012, 07:39 PM

The Andantes are on the duets albums. IMO the songs below are the songs that I can hear Andantes

1) Try It
2) Funky Broadway
3) Sweet Inspiration
and I think I'll Try Something New and I'm Gonna Make You Love mixed with Mary and Cindy.
4) Sing A Simple Song
5) For Better Or Worse

I'm sure there are more.

**jobeterob** · 01-10-2012, 09:12 PM

Motown David............does Martha Reeves not say in interviews that all the Vandellas were employed? I thought I'd seen interviews where she said that..............and of course, even if she did, it doesn't necessarily mean it was true. Perhaps it became true for later day Vandellas.

I believe people on here have stated Cindy got royalties too but I think it might have said opposite in some books. And I think there was a thread on here on this.

The first two Sups & Tempts duets albums were huge hits and they were excellent albums, I thought. How could you ever beat Dennis Edwards doing THAT version of I'm Losing You on TCB. And a lot of the cuts on Join the Tempts were excellent - Gonna Make You Love Me, Impossible Dream, Funky Broadway and a lot more of them. On Broadway and Together were a lot weaker.

I'm surprised at how many cuts you say the Andantes were on. Now I'm starting to question the voices I've heard for all these years and wonder who I really heard.

**motony** · 01-10-2012, 09:26 PM

thank you, motown-david as I know you really know Roz & Annette. I also beleive it is just Roz & Annette on the first several records & the whole Heat Wave LP.

**marv2** · 01-11-2012, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by roger

I can't help but think that if the whole Motown phenomenon had happened ten or fifteen years earlier it would have been called BERRY GORDY'S BIG BAND and we wouldn't even be having these discussions .. we would just all appreciate the great vocalists, songwriters and musicians involved!!

After all .. wasn't Motown in the '60s a communal effort? My understanding is that early in their career THE SUPREMES sang back up for MARVIN GAYE and THE TEMPTATIONS .. THE VANDELLAS sang back up for MARVIN GAYE .. LEVI STUBBS [[uncredited) is on "When The Lovelight Starts Shining through His Eyes" by THE SUPREMES and "Teach Me Tonight" by STEVIE WONDER. All manner of singers sang back up for all manner of lead singers. The bottom line is that the music was great!!

And .. who seriously thinks that THE BEATLES sang and played ALL the parts on ALL their records? All those orchestral arrangements [[didn't some go backwards) .. were they being played by John, George, Paul and Ringo? I think not!! I believe that there were some "BEATLES" recordings that actually only included one or two of the group [[the vocalists) plus session musicians.

Personally I love Motown music, as a phenomenon, and if I find out that someone who was in a particular act wasn't actually singing on a particular one of that acts recordings it doesn't bother me one iota!!

Roger

You go Roger! You have it exactly right and thank you. You saved me from having to type all that out.

**marv2** · 01-11-2012, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Session singers would usually be paid for the session - come to work, you get $150 for 3 hours work. They might not have a clue where their background work would end up and perhaps the producers didn't know either.

That is how they get paid; not royalties.

A more interesting legal question might be "should a group member be paid royalties when they were not on the released record"? Their contract probably says they get paid for sales when they are on the record. So, a question might be "did Motown NOT pay the group member when they knew the Andantes were singing as opposed to Flo, Mary, Cindy, Annette, Lois, and any number of Marvelettes? Knowing Motown, they probably didn't pay them. Maybe this is what some of the disputes were about.

But as I recall Cindy and all the Vandellas other than Martha never got any royalties anyway. They were employed Supremes and Vandellas.

Ah, NO! In Mary Wilson's case, they had to pay her royalties on everything! In her contract Motown was forbidden from replacing her on Supremes recordings or in the group itself. Motown must have forgotten what they agreed to in their own contracts with the Supremes. It all came up again in the late seventies.

**marv2** · 01-11-2012, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by skooldem1

Well it certainly does make you wonder. Maybe that's why when Florence was kicked out of the group she only got a few thousand dollars. She wasn't on as many "records" as we think.

Cheaper to pay a flat salary for a session singer with no rights to royalties.

Then why is it that Diana Ross only got something like $250,000 when she left Motown in 1981? That was for all of her Supremes work and solo work........ Mary has said that her split from the Supremes [[Original Supremes) account was around $ 125,000 "tax-free American dollars" as Berry Gordy kept telling her! LOL!!!!

Florence was not the only one to get shaft.......... So drop your theory on Florence Ballard prescence on the Supremes recordings. She was on most of them as Andy has said.

**marv2** · 01-11-2012, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by motown_david

The old chestnut about the Vandellas being employed adn not receiving royalties is just not true - or at least not in the early days of their existance.

I have seen Annette Helton's original contract and she signed directly to Motown, as did Roz Holmes. Niether of the girls was employed by Martha but rather by Motown. The royalties for their tracks are still shared equally by the 3 group members and she still receives regular royalty statements for all the tracks she sings on, which go up to June 1964, when she retired from the group, as she was 6 months pregnant with Derek, her first child. Her last recording session as a Vandella was for Jimmy Mack and Third Finger Left Hand - not a bad way to finish your recording career at Motown.

I also know that Roz receives her royalty cheques regularly from Motown to this day.

Betty's first session was for Dancing In The Street a couple of weeks later. Cal Street of the Velvelettes told a very good friend of mine that she accompanied Betty to this session as she was so nervous recording as a Vandella for the first time. She was also employed directly by Motown after serving a short trial period. Betty told me this herself last year in Detroit when we had the pleasure of meeting her.

I believe that later Vandellas were employees of the group and receive no royalties from Motown, although I have no direct proof of this as I have with Annette and Roz.

It's amazing how stories become facts just because they appear on the Internet. The truth is often something quite different.

Motown_David wrote: "It's amazing how stories become facts just because they appear on the Internet. The truth is often something quite different."

That is so important for people to remember. Rational people that this. Thanks Motown David.

**marv2** · 01-11-2012, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Motown David............does Martha Reeves not say in interviews that all the Vandellas were employed? I thought I'd seen interviews where she said that..............and of course, even if she did, it doesn't necessarily mean it was true. Perhaps it became true for later day Vandellas.

I believe people on here have stated Cindy got royalties too but I think it might have said opposite in some books. And I think there was a thread on here on this.

The first two Sups & Tempts duets albums were huge hits and they were excellent albums, I thought. How could you ever beat Dennis Edwards doing THAT version of I'm Losing You on TCB. And a lot of the cuts on Join the Tempts were excellent - Gonna Make You Love Me, Impossible Dream, Funky Broadway and a lot more of them. On Broadway and Together were a lot weaker.

I'm surprised at how many cuts you say the Andantes were on. Now I'm starting to question the voices I've heard for all these years and wonder who I really heard.

Cindy Birdsong did receive royalties. She also signed them away when she negotiated her release from Motown she opted for a lump sum cash payout.

You can go and on building up this myth in your mind about the Andantes, but I know and many others know that they did not record all of the hits! On the other hand, the Funk Brothers DID!

**motown_david** · 01-11-2012, 07:13 AM

Yes, Jobeterob, Martha has said that in interviews and she has even told me that herself. However, the truth is that she is talking about the Vandellas in later years and she does in fact employ them herself. Lois and Delphine, for example, are employed by her. But the original grouping and Betty do receive their third share of royalties for the records they are on. As I said, I've seen Annette's contract with Motown and she banks her royalty cheaues with glee for the work she did many years ago. Long may it continue! I'll speak with her about all of this again when my wife and I vacation with Annette and her husband in May. She is a very good friend and has been for many years now. We had the pleasure of their company last year when we took Dann and Annette around the UK for two weeks. She has some great stories to tell of the early years of Motown and I'm encouraging her to write them all down.

**motony** · 01-11-2012, 08:51 AM

Roz, Annette & Martha on Marvins "Stubborn Kinda Fellow" "Hitchike" & "Pride & Joy" are the same voices as "Come & Get These Memories" "Heatwave" & Quicksand".

**motown_david** · 01-11-2012, 11:20 AM

The 3 ladies are so very proud of their work as Marvin's backing vocalists, Tony. There is a Hip-O CD crying to come out that features them on bv duty with various stars in the early days of Motown. LaBrenda Ben, Eddie Holland, Mable John, Bunny Paul, Morrocco Muzic Makers and Saundra Edwards all benefited from their bvs. Annette told me that they were kept very busy in the studio in the early days of Hitsville - sometimes on bv duty, sometimes on handclaps and footstomps for which they were paid $5 a session. I guess though that when success came to the group the Andantes took over their duties.
I've just bought a 45 on Ebay called I Think Of You by Mike Hanks and the Del Phis on the Mah's label. Once again their sound is evident and Annettte's comment when I sent her an mp3 of the song was that she can hear their original lead singer, Gloria Jean, loud and clear. She had never heard the track since hearing the playback at the original session in about 1961. The Del Phi / Vandella sound is unmistakable.
Do I come over as an enthusiast for the group? You betcha.

**chidrummer** · 01-12-2012, 10:24 PM

posted by roger:

"And .. who seriously thinks that THE BEATLES sang and played ALL the parts on ALL their records? All those orchestral arrangements [[didn't some go backwards) .. were they being played by John, George, Paul and Ringo? I think not!! I believe that there were some "BEATLES" recordings that actually only included one or two of the group [[the vocalists) plus session musicians."

Funny you should mention that, roger. The Beatles are the most documented group in Rock history. The question you just asked can be found in at least three different books concerning the group's recording history - The Beatles Recording Sessions by Mark Lewisohn [[who actually knows more about the group's activities than the surviving Beatles), Recording The Beatles by Brian Kehew & Kevin Ryan [[a much more technical treatment of the recording gear and methods used in studio 2 at Abbey Road) and The Beatles on Parlophone Records by Bruce Spizer [[a meticulous biographer of the Beatles' career).

Between those books one can easily answer virtually any question that can be answered about who did what, when, where, how and why. I wish Motown's output would be given such exhaustive and revered treatment. That would be amazing.

**jobeterob** · 01-13-2012, 12:03 AM

Awesome, Motown David, thank you for the reply.

Tell Annette again that Motown was never better than when the Vandellas were singing "don't pass up this chance, it sounds like a new romance, a heat wave" and they will always be remembered for it.

Glad to hear about the royalties.

Tony............wasn't it the Supremes on Stubborn Kind of Fellow or am I getting too mixed up from all of the Andantes information?

**motony** · 01-13-2012, 12:15 PM

No, the Vandellas were on Marvins first LP including the hits Stubborn Kinda Fellow Hitchike & Pride & Joy. Supremes were on Youre a Wonderful One & Can I Get A Witness.