When did Rhythm and Blues die?

**homebody** · 10-01-2011, 05:52 PM

Ok I like Comtemporary R&B its not traditional but it still has rhythm.I dislike new jack swing its too rap/hip hop influenced almost like pop rap just with singing not real soulful lyrics.TLC were not R&B because they sang about sex like to an extent like trying to look hood,Do you think New Jack Swing like "poison" by Bell Biv Devoe which has rap all over it changed soul music entirely.I never knew exactly what was rhythm and blues and how does "R&B" title supposed to mean that the newer R&B had any relation to traditional Rhythm and blues because that and hip hop are two separate genres.I actually liked 1980's R&B with synthesizers it didn't have that rap influence and it was proper evolution after disco diedit sounded better but do you think if new jack swing never existed rhythm and blues would still exist.

**soulster** · 10-01-2011, 07:34 PM

New Jack swing died waaaaaay back in 1991. R&B never died.

smark21 · 10-02-2011, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by homebody

Ok I like Comtemporary R&B its not traditional but it still has rhythm.I dislike new jack swing its too rap/hip hop influenced almost like pop rap just with singing not real soulful lyrics.TLC were not R&B because they sang about sex like to an extent like trying to look hood,Do you think New Jack Swing like "poison" by Bell Biv Devoe which has rap all over it changed soul music entirely.I never knew exactly what was rhythm and blues and how does "R&B" title supposed to mean that the newer R&B had any relation to traditional Rhythm and blues because that and hip hop are two separate genres.I actually liked 1980's R&B with synthesizers it didn't have that rap influence and it was proper evolution after disco diedit sounded better but do you think if new jack swing never existed rhythm and blues would still exist.

So I take it was in 1991-92 that you officially became bitter and old because the popular culture had left you behind? YOu seemed obsessed with the topic as you've started several threads on it the past few days. Many R and B songs are about having sex. It's just in earlier times, the word "love" was used as an euphemism for "fuck" because of censorship.

**Motown4Ever518** · 10-09-2011, 10:06 PM

I think in the late seventies most of the labels in the haste to turn a buck, recorded anything without regards to quality, then to protect the investment made in the recording, promoted the product via any means to recoup the original expenses. They were successful producing sub par music because when the only thing you hear on the airwaves, or in the clubs is sub par music you begin to accept it. What followed is that people making the records following the trends kept in the same vein, which continued the cycle and before long we are where we are now with regards to R&B.

My 13 year old and her friends playing a Wii singing game where they sang only Top 40 songs because with adults in the vicinity those were the only songs that were clean, and they knew there would be problems if they sang the R& B songs.

Nelson George wrote a book, The Death of Rhythm and Blues, as well as one of the earliest and best Motown books, Where Did Our Love Go. In the former, he sums it up best that R& B died when 3 generations of a family could and did listen to the same music. But on the other hand, don't assume that this music was squeaky clean. Leon Haywoods "I want To Do Something Freaky To You", Marvin Gayes "You Sure Love To Ball", I don't know how I would answer my childs question of what do those songs mean, yet they were very big in the 70's and on the radio.

In closing, R&B went into decline when it lost it's range. Motown, Stax, Philly International, were 3 record companies from different parts of the country that sold most of the R&B into the 70's. But within those 3 companies,they produced a wide range of sounds. Currently because of the dollars involved, R&B record companies are only interested in one thing, sales. The public has voted by supporting what is currently available. If you want artistic achievement, I suggest you start listening to Jazz.

**marv2** · 10-09-2011, 10:07 PM

Rhythm and Blues has never died. It's being played right now somewhere........

**Motown4Ever518** · 10-09-2011, 10:09 PM

Marv 2, you are right.

**daddyacey** · 10-10-2011, 03:58 AM

Homebody ,
It seems to me that you don't like Rap specifcally, and I can understand that because although I come from the the area that Rap originated from and have a family member that was a pioneer in the rap genre, I like some early M.C. type rap ,but don't agree with raps inclusion in some R&B and New Jack productions. Early New Jack productions at its initial inception did not have any Rap included in it. Keith Sweat and early Teddy Riley Guy ,Johnny Kemp and Heavy D projects did not have Rap incorporated into them. The rap in New Jack was incorporated by Puffy and the explicit sex was incorporated later by R. Kelly. New Jack was concieved as Hip Hop's groove and instrumental style without the yack yack of Rap ,for Dancers who did not want the distraction of someone talking over the groove , the cut of the music. Somewhere along the line ,raps were included in New Jack tracks and other R&B as a crossover tool ,to satisfy a industry demographic and increase sales. There are many TLC ,EnVouge ,Bobby Brown ,New Edition etc tracks that are excellent tracks, without the raps included in them. TLC's "Creep" for one ,a good number of SWV's cuts also. New Jack is a dirivative of R&B. Like as an analogy ,fried chicken and smothered chicken. One has gravy and one don't. You have to fry chicken first to get smothered chicken. New jack is just fried chicken,[[R&B) and smothered with gravy to make it New Jack. In the end ,it's still just chicken.

**jsmith** · 10-10-2011, 06:16 AM

I can't stand rap [[no musical talent or singing prowess needed to make rap records) and am not too keen on modern R&B.
The downward trend started for me when drum machines & synthasised strings / brass started to take over and things just got worse when what an artist looked like for the video became more important than what they sounded like on the actual track.
Plus, record companies no longer get behind a talent & actually promote them ... unless you're someone like Beyonce you just get lost in the shuffle [[where are the Mary J Blige, Alicia Keys, Calvin Richardson and Ann Nesby like singers with regards to landing major label contracts these days).
Don't get me wrong, there are still loads of great singers [[Marcell & the Truth for example) + lots of bands who play fine R&B [[soul) styled sets ... BUT ... they aren't being signed & promoted by the majors.
The likes of Daptone & similar specialist labels do a fine job, the majors just don't.
Till the accountants stop deciding who gets signed / retained, black music will never return to the days when quality tracks were on the charts every week.

**motony** · 10-10-2011, 08:17 AM

when they quit using real singers & real muscians to make "music"

**soulster** · 10-10-2011, 09:45 PM

I have no problem with rap. I like quite a bit of it from the late 70s to today. So, I am not biased.

I also grew up and love with R&B from the 60s and 70s, so I am not biased.

I do not mind any music or rap with risque/naughty/pornographic lyrics, or subject matter, so I am not biased.

I am a musician, a drummer. But, I enjoy and understand the use of drum machines, sampling, and sequencers. So, I am not biased.

I grew up with singers and vocal stylists. I also like the effects of using vocoders and autotune. So, I am not biased.

I listen to my beloved oldies as well as new pop hits. So, I am not biased.

**dave_clegg** · 10-11-2011, 05:29 AM

I agree with you John, as far as I am concerned they left the C out of rap!!

**Motown4Ever518** · 10-15-2011, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

I have no problem with rap. I like quite a bit of it from the late 70s to today. So, I am not biased.

I also grew up and love with R&B from the 60s and 70s, so I am not biased.

I do not mind any music or rap with risque/naughty/pornographic lyrics, or subject matter, so I am not biased.

I am a musician, a drummer. But, I enjoy and understand the use of drum machines, sampling, and sequencers. So, I am not biased.

I grew up with singers and vocal stylists. I also like the effects of using vocoders and autotune. So, I am not biased.

I listen to my beloved oldies as well as new pop hits. So, I am not biased.

As a fellow drummer, I agree with a lot of what you stated, except for the lyrical, subject matter that is commonplace these days.

As far as the evolution of musical genres goes, time, as the Blackbirds said in 1976 is moving on. As much as that song for example, is so jamming that it is hard to stand still while listening to it, if you played it at party today, most of the dance devotes would laugh and leave the dance floor. Pick a style and what was all the rage in at one point, was replaced by something else and is now out. In Jazz, how much interest would be generated by the public at large over a new a Ragtime release? Or a crowded arena of Country Music fans would not appreciate the drumless C+W songs of the 40's.

At this site, we buy the re-issues, of albums that some of us have had in LP, 8-Track, Cassette, and CD. We wait with baited breath for TCMS 1972, the next installment of the Marvellettes LP series, or More Hits, by The Supremes. All I am saying is that while I don't go out of my way to listen to todays R+B, there is still some good music being produced, perhaps not as much as I would like, but that is why we can access the electronic device of our choice, with the music that we choose.

**robb_k** · 10-15-2011, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by homebody

Ok I like Comtemporary R&B its not traditional but it still has rhythm.I dislike new jack swing its too rap/hip hop influenced almost like pop rap just with singing not real soulful lyrics.TLC were not R&B because they sang about sex like to an extent like trying to look hood,Do you think New Jack Swing like "poison" by Bell Biv Devoe which has rap all over it changed soul music entirely.I never knew exactly what was rhythm and blues and how does "R&B" title supposed to mean that the newer R&B had any relation to traditional Rhythm and blues because that and hip hop are two separate genres.I actually liked 1980's R&B with synthesizers it didn't have that rap influence and it was proper evolution after disco diedit sounded better but do you think if new jack swing never existed rhythm and blues would still exist.

Shouldn't this be on the SDF General Forum, as opposed to Thee SDF Motown Forum? After all, I think it's a bit much to blame Motown for "the death of R & B"!

**soulster** · 10-16-2011, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Motown4Ever518

As a fellow drummer, I agree with a lot of what you stated, except for the lyrical, subject matter that is commonplace these days.

As far as the evolution of musical genres goes, time, as the Blackbirds said in 1976 is moving on. As much as that song for example, is so jamming that it is hard to stand still while listening to it, if you played it at party today, most of the dance devotes would laugh and leave the dance floor. Pick a style and what was all the rage in at one point, was replaced by something else and is now out. In Jazz, how much interest would be generated by the public at large over a new a Ragtime release? Or a crowded arena of Country Music fans would not appreciate the drumless C+W songs of the 40's.

At this site, we buy the re-issues, of albums that some of us have had in LP, 8-Track, Cassette, and CD. We wait with baited breath for TCMS 1972, the next installment of the Marvellettes LP series, or More Hits, by The Supremes. All I am saying is that while I don't go out of my way to listen to todays R+B, there is still some good music being produced, perhaps not as much as I would like, but that is why we can access the electronic device of our choice, with the music that we choose.

I'm not sure where I was going with that last post, but I wanted trying to show that I keep an open mind when it comes to music, and am not stuck in a musical time-warp or think about it in "moral" terms.

I cannot call myself a true music lover if I do not keep my ear in the street, meaning that I try to keep up on what's happening out there in new music, whatever it may be. We didn't get to this point by wallowing in the old. Musicians keep going, so why don't the listeners? We don't have to like everything new, but we can at least give it a try.

I always look for CD or hi-rez versions of my favorite albums from the past, only to be disappointed in the sound quality. That is why I often stick with my vinyl rips. I'm not a completest, so I don't need every album or song by a favorite artist.

**marv2** · 10-16-2011, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by soulster

I'm not sure where I was going with that last post, but I wanted trying to show that I keep an open mind when it comes to music, and am not stuck in a musical time-warp or think about it in "moral" terms.

I cannot call myself a true music lover if I do not keep my ear in the street, meaning that I try to keep up on what's happening out there in new music, whatever it may be. We didn't get to this point by wallowing in the old. Musicians keep going, so why don't the listeners? We don't have to like everything new, but we can at least give it a try.

I always look for CD or hi-rez versions of my favorite albums from the past, only to be disappointed in the sound quality. That is why I often stick with my vinyl rips. I'm not a completest, so I don't need every album or song by a favorite artist.

I understand what you are saying as I too try to keep up with what is happening. However, just yesterday afternoon I was driving and on the radio they were playing Teddy Pendergrass' 1981 hit "My Latest, My Greatest Inspiration". I immediately thought of this thread.

Although, R&B has not died, we have lost a huge amount of artists that had created a lot of the most classic recordings. Time does that I suppose, but thinking how James Brown, Teddy, Marvin Gaye, Wilson Pickett, Luther, Levi,Michael and several of the Temptations have passed on, there really have not been many major new artists that have caught on with the public. I should mention Gerald Levert as he definitely belongs in my little role call here.

**soulster** · 10-16-2011, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Although, R&B has not died, we have lost a huge amount of artists that had created a lot of the most classic recordings. Time does that I suppose, but thinking how James Brown, Teddy, Marvin Gaye, Wilson Pickett, Luther, Levi,Michael and several of the Temptations have passed on, there really have not been many major new artists that have caught on with the public. I should mention Gerald Levert as he definitely belongs in my little role call here.

All the artists you mentioned are the greats, and I enjoy each one of them. Their music is part of my life's soundtrack. There aren't many artists who are carrying the torch who have caught the public's heart, and the retro bands just don't do it. But, even some of the top artists today have the goods, but they rarely ever use 'em. Usher, Bruno Mars, and Rihanna do, but the people on this forum pretty much reject the pop music they do. I don't mind the music, though.

**skooldem1** · 10-16-2011, 04:16 PM

Anthony Hamilton is pretty good.

**daddyacey** · 10-17-2011, 01:13 AM

"Anthony Hamilton is pretty good."
One of the better "new" performers. His voice reminds me of Otis Redding.

**marv2** · 10-20-2011, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

All the artists you mentioned are the greats, and I enjoy each one of them. Their music is part of my life's soundtrack. There aren't many artists who are carrying the torch who have caught the public's heart, and the retro bands just don't do it. But, even some of the top artists today have the goods, but they rarely ever use 'em. Usher, Bruno Mars, and Rihanna do, but the people on this forum pretty much reject the pop music they do. I don't mind the music, though.

R. Kelly, like him or not, at least he tries to keep the spirit of R&B fresh and alive.