Why didn't Motown like Mary Wilson?

[TheMotownManiac]

A few corrections...

2.) Yes, she was tardy but it never showed in her work. For all the talk that she was late to things, she never missed her mark. Diana even said that Mary kept her on her toes. She may have been late, but she was no slouch. The woman was on her game.

4.) Not sure what Deke was remembering, but the Farewell album we hear is the last show. It wasn't the highly edited show with pieces and parts from other nights he has said it was. There were edits to the Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In medley because some celebrities didn't want to be featured on the album and maybe that's what he remembered in terms of the amount of hours and work of editing but the things we hear on the album are from the last night and the things we hear Mary saying are what was there that night. The ladies clearly had champagne before the show and were just letting things flow, but nothing comes close to being out of line, unprofessional or inexcusable.

but the topic of conversation is not if mary was good at her job or not it is why Motown did not like her. And the unprofessionalism of keeping people waiting and waiting and waiting is enough to piss people off. And that’s in any profession, and it doesn’t matter how good someone is. Read about the making of the Judy Garland show. Are anybody that worked with her the ladder years especially. People do not like waiting and it makes them not like someone they might otherwise like.. There’s no excuse for this. It’s just simply a fact.

I don’t know why would make up such a total, a lengthy lie about the farewell show. But he told her to more people than just me. What is your source that unequivocably that the released farewell album was only from the last show? I think I’m going to need at least some convincing because Deek didn’t just mention this, we had a pretty lengthy conversation about it because of course it was great dirt and I was asking a lot of questions. For a guy who is making up the story he sure had a lot of answers ready. And if you look at the picture of them in the booth after the show on January 14, Mary is raising her glass and diana is directing her glass away from her as if she might be afraid it might spill on her. That’s how it looks to me . Or at least looks like it could be that. And I’ve said this before but, I don’t know one person, who either personally heard, or knows anyone who heard mary ever express happiness for any of diana ross’s solo successes. I think Mary‘s feelings got the best of her that night.


but I think all of this discussion might also be backwards. I think the question should be, “why would Motown like mary wilson?”

if by the word like we are meaning, appreciating and nurturing and marketing the talent of mary wilson…

Some folks act as if Motown somehow owed Mary or anyone at Motown something. record, Companies are notoriously callous. They are not living things. They don’t have hearts or feelings or consciousness or anything. They have a balance sheet. Motown was a business, and they didn’t see a good investment in her. It was nothing personal, like any business they would invest in what they thought they could make a nickel on. on top of that, there may have been personal feelings, one way or another at the upper echelon, actually believe there was that. But, either way, they would’ve exploited her if they felt it was worth their while. I think that, we as supreme fans, naturally want to see the people that have brought us so much pleasure do well, and it might cloud our judgment as far as the commercial viability of a certain act or a certain record.

when I read threads about the viability of red hot, for example, it makes me wonder what’s going on at the Tommy Boyce and Bobby hart page, Terry jacks page, etc., There’s usually a good reason why a record doesn’t hit and I don’t believe it’s because of promotion for the most part. And that includes 99% of diana ross’s failures as well. don’t leave me this way as a great example of that. I don’t know how much promotion it got or didn’t get, but it limped up the chart so slowly, it would’ve lost the race to the tortoise and the hare. it is a prime example of a great record growing naturally.

[Ollie9]

A few corrections...

2.) Yes, she was tardy but it never showed in her work. For all the talk that she was late to things, she never missed her mark. Diana even said that Mary kept her on her toes. She may have been late, but she was no slouch. The woman was on her game.

4.) Not sure what Deke was remembering, but the Farewell album we hear is the last show. It wasn't the highly edited show with pieces and parts from other nights he has said it was. There were edits to the Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In medley because some celebrities didn't want to be featured on the album and maybe that's what he remembered in terms of the amount of hours and work of editing but the things we hear on the album are from the last night and the things we hear Mary saying are what was there that night. The ladies clearly had champagne before the show and were just letting things flow, but nothing comes close to being out of line, unprofessional or inexcusable.

I absolutely agree brad. To honestly think Gordy looked upon Mary with a jaundiced eye because she was noble and brave enough to try and protect her colleagues over who drove that station wagon is utterly ridiculous. If anything it proved even then she possessed loyalty and a sense of fairness, principles often found lacking in her work colleague..
Mary was always the complete professional when performing on stage, whether with the Supremes or solo. Something which cannot always be said of M’s Ross.
It’s really quite baffling Motown’s lack of vision and interest in Mary’s potential.
Would it perhaps have detracted from Diana’s fame and uniqueness if another ex-Supreme had also found success. Only Gordy knows the answer.

[sup_fan]

i think the old station wagon story isn't so much about 1 specific incident back in 1961 or whenever. it was about who you were "with." Mary even mentioned this. that Berry knew mary was also 100% tied to "The Supremes" whereas he was interested in those that were loyal to HIM. This story just might be to illustrate that broader point. Maybe there was more to this than we realize. not saying B and M didn't get along - i'm sure they had tons of fun times along the years. But B knew that M wasn't "totally loyal to him" and so he wasn't 100% interested in her

so it's probably less about the specifics of the station wagon and more about the broader relationship between the two

[BayouMotownMan]

As usual we have strayed off the basic point of Motown not liking Mary. I will maintain that was not the case.

To my recollection Deke Richards did say the released set was mostly from the last show, with a few songs being subbed in from previous performances because of mixing issues. I never heard anything about Mary Wilson being difficult during this process. What Mary was doing was trying to enjoy herself at a time when she was worried about her own future. That was generally how Mary handled stress; she partied. I think BradSupremes has the more factual post. While Deke may have said some things about Mary, he was always in Diana's corner far more than Mary's.

[Ollie9]

i think the old station wagon story isn't so much about 1 specific incident back in 1961 or whenever. it was about who you were "with." Mary even mentioned this. that Berry knew mary was also 100% tied to "The Supremes" whereas he was interested in those that were loyal to HIM. This story just might be to illustrate that broader point. Maybe there was more to this than we realize. not saying B and M didn't get along - i'm sure they had tons of fun times along the years. But B knew that M wasn't "totally loyal to him" and so he wasn't 100% interested in her

so it's probably less about the specifics of the station wagon and more about the broader relationship between the two

I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.
I think it’s easy to cherry pick certain events and read into them what you would prefer to believe.
The bottom line with Motown and Mary’s relationship is that the company simply didn’t consider her voice as being commercial enough to invest in. Mr Gordy never being one to let his heart rule his head.

[jobeterob]

Beautiful wasn’t enough to make it worthwhile to invest in. The voice wasn’t commercial enough and maybe Mary didn’t want it enough or work hard enough at it. I’d never heard stories about her being late but there were stories about going on holiday instead of being around for recording Love Child.

It wasn’t just Motown - no real recording contract ever developed, no well known producer actually worked with her and most of all, there were no hits

[BayouMotownMan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;795719]I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I spoke to enough people at Motown, and Randy Taraborrelli wrote about this, that Diane Ross was a very ambitious young lady and nothing was sacred. If at any point in the early days that Gordy told her he wanted to make her a solo star and that she had to ditch the other two, not a doubt in my mind she'd have done it. Would Mary have done it? Maybe not, she has said however that had she been the boss's girl she might have done similar to Diana, though in a different fashion. Florence probably would not have done it.

Diana Ross has said when questioned about the inter-group turmoils that the biggest problem was that they were not relatives, "like the Jackson 5." And that was where her loyalties lied. She stuck by herself and her family first and foremost. Each lady had a different reason for being in The Supremes. Flo enjoyed singing and it was a hobby that became a job. She never, I don't think, expected the group to hit the massive success they achieved. Florence loved children and marriage and family would have suited her more than being a star. Mary, coming from a broken home, saw the Supremes as her adopted family. She has said that she thought she, Flo and Diane would always be together, which was unrealistic on her part. Diane Ross merely saw the Supremes as a stepping stone to something greater.

When the girls were still teenagers Diane Ross one day in the studio told Mary and Flo, "I'm gonna get him." Mary said they looked around thinking it was one of the other male singers. When they realized it was Gordy she was referring to, they laughed at her. He was old enough the be her father. But she wanted the fame and knew he was the one to get her there. She wasn't attracted to him so much physically as it was his power and creativity. It would be Arne Naess that became the big love of her life. It was he that got Ross to pull back from her obsession with stardom and career far more than the other men in her life. Though that only lasted a few years in the 1990s...long enough the derail Ross's recording career to a level she has never recovered from.

I think all of us work with a Diana Ross. Maybe it's a man, but there has always been someone at a company sucking up to the boss for special favors and perhaps sexual payoffs. I quickly add that you don't get to be where Cher, Streisand or Ross is by being nice. Diana Ross was the type of person where, as Mary said, if you were running a race with her and you tripped and fell, Diana would keep going and you had to get back up on your own the way she does. You either stand behind Diana Ross, maybe beside her, but never in front of her. If you were in her way you'd get mowed down. That's what makes a superstar.

[Spreadinglove21]

but the topic of conversation is not if mary was good at her job or not it is why Motown did not like her. And the unprofessionalism of keeping people waiting and waiting and waiting is enough to piss people off. And that’s in any profession, and it doesn’t matter how good someone is. Read about the making of the Judy Garland show. Are anybody that worked with her the ladder years especially. People do not like waiting and it makes them not like someone they might otherwise like.. There’s no excuse for this. It’s just simply a fact.

I don’t know why would make up such a total, a lengthy lie about the farewell show. But he told her to more people than just me. What is your source that unequivocably that the released farewell album was only from the last show? I think I’m going to need at least some convincing because Deek didn’t just mention this, we had a pretty lengthy conversation about it because of course it was great dirt and I was asking a lot of questions. For a guy who is making up the story he sure had a lot of answers ready. And if you look at the picture of them in the booth after the show on January 14, Mary is raising her glass and diana is directing her glass away from her as if she might be afraid it might spill on her. That’s how it looks to me . Or at least looks like it could be that. And I’ve said this before but, I don’t know one person, who either personally heard, or knows anyone who heard mary ever express happiness for any of diana ross’s solo successes. I think Mary‘s feelings got the best of her that night.


but I think all of this discussion might also be backwards. I think the question should be, “why would Motown like mary wilson?”

if by the word like we are meaning, appreciating and nurturing and marketing the talent of mary wilson…

Some folks act as if Motown somehow owed Mary or anyone at Motown something. record, Companies are notoriously callous. They are not living things. They don’t have hearts or feelings or consciousness or anything. They have a balance sheet. Motown was a business, and they didn’t see a good investment in her. It was nothing personal, like any business they would invest in what they thought they could make a nickel on. on top of that, there may have been personal feelings, one way or another at the upper echelon, actually believe there was that. But, either way, they would’ve exploited her if they felt it was worth their while. I think that, we as supreme fans, naturally want to see the people that have brought us so much pleasure do well, and it might cloud our judgment as far as the commercial viability of a certain act or a certain record.

when I read threads about the viability of red hot, for example, it makes me wonder what’s going on at the Tommy Boyce and Bobby hart page, Terry jacks page, etc., There’s usually a good reason why a record doesn’t hit and I don’t believe it’s because of promotion for the most part. And that includes 99% of diana ross’s failures as well. don’t leave me this way as a great example of that. I don’t know how much promotion it got or didn’t get, but it limped up the chart so slowly, it would’ve lost the race to the tortoise and the hare. it is a prime example of a great record growing naturally.

Based on this reply perhaps the thread should be called "Why Did Motown tolerate Mary Wilson for so long?"

[BayouMotownMan]

Based on this reply perhaps the thread should be called "Why Did Motown tolerate Mary Wilson for so long?"

So that she would not lash out at Diana and Gordy in the press...which she eventually did.

It is a tribute to Scherrie Payne that the ladies got another recording contract in 1974. Motown was done with the group. But Scherrie started getting rave reviews and Motown had to take note.

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;795739]

I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I spoke to enough people at Motown, and Randy Taraborrelli wrote about this, that Diane Ross was a very ambitious young lady and nothing was sacred. If at any point in the early days that Gordy told her he wanted to make her a solo star and that she had to ditch the other two, not a doubt in my mind she'd have done it. Would Mary have done it? Maybe not, she has said however that had she been the boss's girl she might have done similar to Diana, though in a different fashion. Florence probably would not have done it.

Diana Ross has said when questioned about the inter-group turmoils that the biggest problem was that they were not relatives, "like the Jackson 5." And that was where her loyalties lied. She stuck by herself and her family first and foremost. Each lady had a different reason for being in The Supremes. Flo enjoyed singing and it was a hobby that became a job. She never, I don't think, expected the group to hit the massive success they achieved. Florence loved children and marriage and family would have suited her more than being a star. Mary, coming from a broken home, saw the Supremes as her adopted family. She has said that she thought she, Flo and Diane would always be together, which was unrealistic on her part. Diane Ross merely saw the Supremes as a stepping stone to something greater.

When the girls were still teenagers Diane Ross one day in the studio told Mary and Flo, "I'm gonna get him." Mary said they looked around thinking it was one of the other male singers. When they realized it was Gordy she was referring to, they laughed at her. He was old enough the be her father. But she wanted the fame and knew he was the one to get her there. She wasn't attracted to him so much physically as it was his power and creativity. It would be Arne Naess that became the big love of her life. It was he that got Ross to pull back from her obsession with stardom and career far more than the other men in her life. Though that only lasted a few years in the 1990s...long enough the derail Ross's recording career to a level she has never recovered from.

I think all of us work with a Diana Ross. Maybe it's a man, but there has always been someone at a company sucking up to the boss for special favors and perhaps sexual payoffs. I quickly add that you don't get to be where Cher, Streisand or Ross is by being nice. Diana Ross was the type of person where, as Mary said, if you were running a race with her and you tripped and fell, Diana would keep going and you had to get back up on your own the way she does. You either stand behind Diana Ross, maybe beside her, but never in front of her. If you were in her way you'd get mowed down. That's what makes a superstar.

I agree with many of your points that Diana had potential to be ruthless as regards her career advancement. That’s why i was making the point that her loyalty might waver if asked to do something she truly believed was detrimental to that cause.
I have personally met Barbra Streisand and spoken with many who have worked with her over the years. They agree in that she has always treated people with the utmost respect and is devoid of diva tantrums. The fact she has worked with the same personal assistant for over Forty five years speaks volumes. A stark contrast to Diana.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;795761]

I agree with many of your points that Diana had potential to be ruthless as regards her career advancement. That’s why i was making the point that her loyalty might waver if asked to do something she truly believed was detrimental to that cause.
I have personally met Barbra Streisand and spoken with many who have worked with her over the years. They agree in that she has always treated people with the utmost respect and is devoid of diva tantrums. The fact she has worked with the same personal assistant for over Forty five years speaks volumes. A stark contrast to Diana.

when you talk to many of the people that have worked WITH diana, she's not an out of control diva. she's very demanding but also gives much. like to gil and her other conductors, her band and orchestra, her choreographers and producers of her specials and stage acts, her movie directors and costars

the stories we've mostly heard about are from people that work FOR her. assistants and the like.

the issue seems to be Diana is a total perfectionist. she demands it of herself and those around her. if you're the band leader, are very good at your job [[which if you're been hired by DR you undoubtedly are) and put on a good show, odds are you won't have temper tantrums thrown at you. your job is quite specific and quite clearly defined

but with an assistant, that clarity and definition of job is not always the case and so it can get much more challenging. in Randy's last DR book, he shares a lot of more intimate stories of Diana and her staff. and yes, some are pretty wild and uncomfortable but they aren't written quite as jaded as the CHMR versions. he also highlights that Diana very much knows all about her close associates - their families, their situations, their lives. she isn't always just a wild out of control diva. there were stories shared where she was quite giving to them. and most of these stories [[good and bad) are from the 80s when things were quite different with her. she was attempting to raise her young teenage children, prove her independence in her career, etc.

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;795763]

when you talk to many of the people that have worked WITH diana, she's not an out of control diva. she's very demanding but also gives much. like to gil and her other conductors, her band and orchestra, her choreographers and producers of her specials and stage acts, her movie directors and costars

the stories we've mostly heard about are from people that work FOR her. assistants and the like.

the issue seems to be Diana is a total perfectionist. she demands it of herself and those around her. if you're the band leader, are very good at your job [[which if you're been hired by DR you undoubtedly are) and put on a good show, odds are you won't have temper tantrums thrown at you. your job is quite specific and quite clearly defined

but with an assistant, that clarity and definition of job is not always the case and so it can get much more challenging. in Randy's last DR book, he shares a lot of more intimate stories of Diana and her staff. and yes, some are pretty wild and uncomfortable but they aren't written quite as jaded as the CHMR versions. he also highlights that Diana very much knows all about her close associates - their families, their situations, their lives. she isn't always just a wild out of control diva. there were stories shared where she was quite giving to them. and most of these stories [[good and bad) are from the 80s when things were quite different with her. she was attempting to raise her young teenage children, prove her independence in her career, etc.

So as long as you get on with the odd band conductor, it’s ok to treat your assistants like s—t by instructing them to avoid eye contact and writing a public letter to destroy their reputation and chances of future employment.
I was at Wembley Arena when’s she was screaming abuse at her band and kicking monitors off stage. Are you saying that’s understandable because that’s how singers raising a family and proving themselves act??.
Though not exclusive to Diana, that behaviour can never be justified by just wanting everything to be perfect. More the behaviour of spoilt, over indulged celebrity.

[bradsupremes]

I don’t know why would make up such a total, a lengthy lie about the farewell show. But he told her to more people than just me. What is your source that unequivocably that the released farewell album was only from the last show? I think I’m going to need at least some convincing because Deek didn’t just mention this, we had a pretty lengthy conversation about it because of course it was great dirt and I was asking a lot of questions. For a guy who is making up the story he sure had a lot of answers ready. And if you look at the picture of them in the booth after the show on January 14, Mary is raising her glass and diana is directing her glass away from her as if she might be afraid it might spill on her. That’s how it looks to me . Or at least looks like it could be that. And I’ve said this before but, I don’t know one person, who either personally heard, or knows anyone who heard mary ever express happiness for any of diana ross’s solo successes. I think Mary‘s feelings got the best of her that night.

If you knew me, you'd know I don't make up lies just to prove a point. I have a degree in history and work for a museum, telling the truth and going back to facts is quite important to me. If the Farewell album was a highly edited album from various shows because Mary was a problem then I would say so. The master tapes say otherwise. What we hear is what happened at the show. And I never said Deke was making up the story. A lot of people misremember things. Like BayouMotownMan said, Deke told him the album is mostly the final show. There were some mixing issues similar to what happened with the Copa show so Deke brought Mary into the studio to dub over her two leads. If you listen closely, you can hear her live vocal underneath.

But to say I lie on here. I don't go for that.

[jobeterob]

You guys are good fellows and I don’t think either of you lie
- history and time changes things and people’s recollections

What I do sense since Mary’s passing is more public acknowledgment that she made a good living, she worked the Supremes name hard for herself, but she had some limits vocally and in terms of drive and confidence

For many years, she was my favourite Supreme. You used to be able to get a free picture of a Supreme out of Motown and I chose Mary. But I think I might identify with Diana’s drive more so now and I wasn’t impressed by Mary’s victim parade which damaged the Supremes a lot. I will always wish she had been more of an Otis Williams businessman and kept the Supremes alive.

[midnightman]

if only one could flick a switch.

haha ikr?

[marybrewster]

Mr Gordy never being one to let his heart rule his head.

He let something else rule his head.

[marybrewster]

If you knew me, you'd know I don't make up lies just to prove a point. I have a degree in history and work for a museum, telling the truth and going back to facts is quite important to me. If the Farewell album was a highly edited album from various shows because Mary was a problem then I would say so. The master tapes say otherwise. What we hear is what happened at the show. And I never said Deke was making up the story. A lot of people misremember things. Like BayouMotownMan said, Deke told him the album is mostly the final show. There were some mixing issues similar to what happened with the Copa show so Deke brought Mary into the studio to dub over her two leads. If you listen closely, you can hear her live vocal underneath.

But to say I lie on here. I don't go for that.

Bravo Brad.

My two cents is, everyone remembers things differently. Didn't one of the Andantes SWEAR they were on a Supremes cut, and it was proven otherwise? Mary herself mixed up facts. Diana as well. I'd never consider these inconsistencies to be "lies". You can't remember EVERYTHING from 20 and 30 and 40 and 50 years ago.

[jobeterob]

Bravo Brad.

My two cents is, everyone remembers things differently. Didn't one of the Andantes SWEAR they were on a Supremes cut, and it was proven otherwise? Mary herself mixed up facts. Diana as well. I'd never consider these inconsistencies to be "lies". You can't remember EVERYTHING from 20 and 30 and 40 and 50 years ago.

Exactly the case - remembrances aren’t infallible.

But how could Diana get mixed up - she never said anything lol

[milven]

Exactly the case - remembrances aren’t infallible.

But how could Diana get mixed up - she never said anything lol

And how could Mary get mixed up. She had those diaries that she could refer to.

Maybe it is us who are mixed up

[TheMotownManiac]

If you knew me, you'd know I don't make up lies just to prove a point. I have a degree in history and work for a museum, telling the truth and going back to facts is quite important to me. If the Farewell album was a highly edited album from various shows because Mary was a problem then I would say so. The master tapes say otherwise. What we hear is what happened at the show. And I never said Deke was making up the story. A lot of people misremember things. Like BayouMotownMan said, Deke told him the album is mostly the final show. There were some mixing issues similar to what happened with the Copa show so Deke brought Mary into the studio to dub over her two leads. If you listen closely, you can hear her live vocal underneath.

But to say I lie on here. I don't go for that.

I didn’t say anything of the kind. I never accused you of being dishonest- I didn’t infer it. I didn’t suggest it. I didn’t say it and I didn’t think it so you don’t have to go for it.. I said I don’t know why he would go to the trouble to make up such a lengthy lie about the farewell show. I think you should read that again. I will say again the conversation I had with Deke was lengthy and dealt in some specifics. Perhaps he misremembered, perhaps I misremembered, it’s also possible that you misremembered. This conversation didn’t seem like some casual fuzzy memory he had about an album he once worked on decades ago. he was talking to me about the toughest assignments He had at Motown, and mentioned the farewell album, and how it almost did not come out at all. He brought it up, not I. When I asked him why it might not have been released, he told me the story, the hours he spent on it, including trying to match sound levels from different shows. Wasn’t until that conversation that I learned they had recorded several shows. He told me the original plan was to have the farewell album come immediately after January 14, 1970 to capture the audience nostalgia and not interfere with the new acts’ products ..and the reason it took four months to chart is the amount of time he had to spend on it While working on the Jackson 5 and product for diana ross solo.

I didn’t know that you had listened to the master tapes from the final show.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;795771]

So as long as you get on with the odd band conductor, it’s ok to treat your assistants like s—t by instructing them to avoid eye contact and writing a public letter to destroy their reputation and chances of future employment.
I was at Wembley Arena when’s she was screaming abuse at her band and kicking monitors off stage. Are you saying that’s understandable because that’s how singers raising a family and proving themselves act??.
Though not exclusive to Diana, that behaviour can never be justified by just wanting everything to be perfect. More the behaviour of spoilt, over indulged celebrity.

no i was point out the differences. her perfectionism was total - in all aspects of her life. the role of the conductor is much more clearly defined than that of assistant. if you F up as the conductor, you better believe Diana will scratch your eyes out. but the odds of that happening are more remote. you know pretty much exactly what you need to do and deliver. but as the assistant, you have to read her mind and predict her thoughts. it's impossible and therefore will be continually plagued by problems.

so many of the stories of the problems with her come from her staff and not the musicians or directors or conductors she works with. most of the later do state that she's a hard worker but rewards generously. and they also tended to bear less of her wrath

[sup_fan]

Bravo Brad.

My two cents is, everyone remembers things differently. Didn't one of the Andantes SWEAR they were on a Supremes cut, and it was proven otherwise? Mary herself mixed up facts. Diana as well. I'd never consider these inconsistencies to be "lies". You can't remember EVERYTHING from 20 and 30 and 40 and 50 years ago.

exactly. the group of superfans on here are committed to the history due to our insane devotion to this group. we've read everything we can get our hands on and commit it all to memory. we trade details, history and stories with one another. for fuck's safe, i built out a large Excel file with all of their recording sessions, tour dates, all of the chart positions for all singles and albums on Billboard, etc lol

the women themselves weren't superfans. this was their job. and sure they probably really loved it. but it wasn't an obsession and it was from a totally different position.

i've been working for decades and thoroughly enjoy my job but i know there are details that i've forgotten or overlooked or memory had clouded. doesn't me i don't care about my career, i've just not built out an excel file documenting every activity lol

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;796000]

no i was point out the differences. her perfectionism was total - in all aspects of her life. the role of the conductor is much more clearly defined than that of assistant. if you F up as the conductor, you better believe Diana will scratch your eyes out. but the odds of that happening are more remote. you know pretty much exactly what you need to do and deliver. but as the assistant, you have to read her mind and predict her thoughts. it's impossible and therefore will be continually plagued by problems.

so many of the stories of the problems with her come from her staff and not the musicians or directors or conductors she works with. most of the later do state that she's a hard worker but rewards generously. and they also tended to bear less of her wrath

I would say it’s a mixed bag, starting with the trouble she had getting along with other female performers while at Motown. Producer Gary Katz had said working with her was the low point of his career, while Anthony Perkins is quoted as saying she never let him forget it was her movie. There are of course others who have had no such problems.
I think the way she treated her employees was pretty abusive at times, and can’t just be dismissed as wanting everything perfect. She also managed to alienate most of the execs at RCA.
I would question the perfectionist tag, judging by the quality of the product she was turning out during the early 80’s, and lack of dedication to the task at hand as reported by Barry Gibb. Being demanding and/or a perfectionist being not one of the same.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;796023]

I would say it’s a mixed bag, starting with the trouble she had getting along with other female performers while at Motown. Producer Gary Katz had said working with her was the low point of his career, while Anthony Perkins is quoted as saying she never let him forget it was her movie. There are of course others who have had no such problems.
I think the way she treated her employees was pretty abusive at times, and can’t just be dismissed as wanting everything perfect. She also managed to alienate most of the execs at RCA.
I would question the perfectionist tag, judging by the quality of the product she was turning out during the early 80’s, and lack of dedication to the task at hand as reported by Barry Gibb. Being demanding and/or a perfectionist being not one of the same.

my guess is she was so hyper focused on proving herself, that she didn't need Berry and Motown, that it raised the perfectionism to new heights. and yet she was so sloppy when it came to her recording career. she was all over these new business efforts - her investments, cutting big deals with Vegas all by herself, the central park initiative, etc. But her cornerstone business of making music suffered. she got lazy with her vocals. wasn't willing to spend the time with top producers like Katz and the Gibbs and really give them the performances they wanted

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;796042]

my guess is she was so hyper focused on proving herself, that she didn't need Berry and Motown, that it raised the perfectionism to new heights. and yet she was so sloppy when it came to her recording career. she was all over these new business efforts - her investments, cutting big deals with Vegas all by herself, the central park initiative, etc. But her cornerstone business of making music suffered. she got lazy with her vocals. wasn't willing to spend the time with top producers like Katz and the Gibbs and really give them the performances they wanted

If i could ask her anything, i would love to know how she feels when reflecting on that time period, especially if she would have done anything differently.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;796057]

If i could ask her anything, i would love to know how she feels when reflecting on that time period, especially if she would have done anything differently.

she'd probably give some annoyingly MOR response about how valuable the whole "growth" experience was lol. Why Do Fools is [[i'm pretty sure) an all-time fav song of hers. so doing a remake of it was probably something she loved. i think she founds pretty great on the song but it's NOT the debut single for a whole new phase of a recording career. Mirror Mirror would have been better.

i'm guessing that she probably doesn't see how halfassed she was with her music. most people aren't that objective with themselves

[bradsupremes]

If there was one thing Diana wasn't good at was making the best choices for her own career. Even today there are things she does that I wish someone had told her to do differently e.g. a more heartfelt statement on Mary's death. And I get she's in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation no matter what she does. I understand an artist's desire to do things their own way. Who wouldn't? She's lived a long enough life to make her own decisions. But ultimately we don't always know what's best for ourselves. That was Diana's shortfall. The Wiz is a perfect example. Without someone like Gordy guiding her, she was left to her own devices and musically suffered at a time when her contemporaries like Dionne, Gladys, Aretha, and Patti were having huge resurgences in the 80s. That could have been her but instead she made some poor choices and her music charting career ended in 1986 as a result.

[jobeterob]

If there was one thing Diana wasn't good at was making the best choices for her own career. Even today there are things she does that I wish someone had told her to do differently e.g. a more heartfelt statement on Mary's death. And I get she's in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation no matter what she does. I understand an artist's desire to do things their own way. Who wouldn't? She's lived a long enough life to make her own decisions. But ultimately we don't always know what's best for ourselves. That was Diana's shortfall. The Wiz is a perfect example. Without someone like Gordy guiding her, she was left to her own devices and musically suffered at a time when her contemporaries like Dionne, Gladys, Aretha, and Patti were having huge resurgences in the 80s. That could have been her but instead she made some poor choices and her music charting career ended in 1986 as a result.

I somewhat agree although I’m not sure giving up some control would have changed things - she had been on top a very long time and things change; also Mary and Randy may have done damage.

But also the charting did continue - with Rod Stewart, with Blue which reached #2 on the Jazz Chart, with Christmas in Vienna - did it reach #1 somewhere? And the multiple #1’s on the Dance Chart

Also, it’s odd but The Wiz is now her most successful movie and will last forever.

[floyjoy678]

I agree Brad regarding Diana's response to Mary's death. I'm sure her passing shook her up a bit. I think Flo's death shook her up quite a bit too and it seems like the best way she knew how to cope with it was to give it as little acknowledgement as possible. A strange way to cope with it but that's just my theory.

[RanRan79]

If there was one thing Diana wasn't good at was making the best choices for her own career. Even today there are things she does that I wish someone had told her to do differently e.g. a more heartfelt statement on Mary's death. And I get she's in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation no matter what she does. I understand an artist's desire to do things their own way. Who wouldn't? She's lived a long enough life to make her own decisions. But ultimately we don't always know what's best for ourselves. That was Diana's shortfall. The Wiz is a perfect example. Without someone like Gordy guiding her, she was left to her own devices and musically suffered at a time when her contemporaries like Dionne, Gladys, Aretha, and Patti were having huge resurgences in the 80s. That could have been her but instead she made some poor choices and her music charting career ended in 1986 as a result.

Aww man, Brad, Diana is the poster child for "Not Everybody Should Have Total Control", my latest documentary. Be on the lookout for it.

I understand her need for control. She was in her mid to late 30s and had never had the independence that comes with being an adult, not really. And I do think she made a few good decisions. Central Park comes to mind. Hooking up with Lionel again, and Daryl Hall, if only for a song, was also a good move, since they both resulted in two hit singles and helped her album go platinum [[or was it gold?). The RHRAB tv special was good, even though the album was a let down. Stolen Moments was brilliant. Finally doing a Christmas album was an accomplishment. So she had it in her to make good decisions, but she needed someone overseeing everything. Someone who would tell her that sound isn't where it's at; no, Diana, that producer hasn't had a hit in five years, get with this producer who is on fire right now; this script is great, do the movie instead of the karaoke style album you're trying to give the fans after a seven year wait; Diana this autobiography is trash, dish the dirt on Mary and return the favor...you know, stuff like that.

[marybrewster]

I agree Brad regarding Diana's response to Mary's death. I'm sure her passing shook her up a bit. I think Flo's death shook her up quite a bit too and it seems like the best way she knew how to cope with it was to give it as little acknowledgement as possible. A strange way to cope with it but that's just my theory.

I agree; I think Diana was some affected by both Flo's and Mary's passing, but for different reasons:

1976: That could have been me
2021: That inevitably will be me

[RanRan79]

I agree; I think Diana was some affected by both Flo's and Mary's passing, but for different reasons:

1976: That could have been me
2021: That inevitably will be me

I don't think Diana is that selfish. No doubt when Flo passed, she, like Mary, probably did let it cross their minds that if they hadn't played the game, they could have ended up like Florence, both financially and finally. I'm sure with Mary's passing there was also some thought to her own mortality, as often happens when people our own age pass away.

But I find it hard to believe that the overwhelming feeling Diana had when Florence and Mary passed away wasn't sadness. Despite the superhuman abilities we often subscribe to her, I believe Diana is prone to all the same emotional stuff the rest of us are. So she surely thought about how things went wrong between herself and Flo and Mary. Maybe she looks back and regrets certain things she said or did. She probably also thought about the good times they had. Remember, Diana can recall Flo and Mary as barely teenagers. That's such an interesting time of life, and for them to have been doing something extraordinary as actively chasing their dreams as singers at such a young age, surely that conjures up a ton of memories that are priceless to her.

If only she would write those memories down and sale them for a price. I'd buy it.

[sup_fan]

Diana was, is and always will be stuck in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation when it comes to M and F. This isn't to say that her decisions are always the best. but i honestly do not think she approached the death of either woman with a "what can i do to raise my publicity" as some writers and hateful fans have said [[note i don't think anyone here is really saying that currently).

with Flo's funeral, the gossip rags and books like CHMR tried to position the situation as Diana grandstanding and robbing the spotlight from poor flo even at her own funeral. Were some of her actions [[in hindsight) probably not the best decision - sure. but i honestly do not believe she arrived at the funeral with malicious intent. i believe she was truly grieving the loss of a person that had been a very close friend while growing up AND someone she had shared an incredible situation with professionally.

with mary's passing, again the same thing. if Diana had written sonnets and hours-long eulogies, people would have second guessed her integrity. if she kept it private, people would have hounded her for being cold and ignoring another person who, like flo, shared so much of her formative years. Do i think [[again in hindsight) could she have done some things differently? yes. but again, i do not believe she was like "good - mary's gone that bitch, at least i don't have to worry about more bad publicity from her" that's just not possible in my mind

[marybrewster]

I don't think Diana is that selfish. No doubt when Flo passed, she, like Mary, probably did let it cross their minds that if they hadn't played the game, they could have ended up like Florence, both financially and finally. I'm sure with Mary's passing there was also some thought to her own mortality, as often happens when people our own age pass away.

But I find it hard to believe that the overwhelming feeling Diana had when Florence and Mary passed away wasn't sadness. Despite the superhuman abilities we often subscribe to her, I believe Diana is prone to all the same emotional stuff the rest of us are. So she surely thought about how things went wrong between herself and Flo and Mary. Maybe she looks back and regrets certain things she said or did. She probably also thought about the good times they had. Remember, Diana can recall Flo and Mary as barely teenagers. That's such an interesting time of life, and for them to have been doing something extraordinary as actively chasing their dreams as singers at such a young age, surely that conjures up a ton of memories that are priceless to her.

If only she would write those memories down and sale them for a price. I'd buy it.

No, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm certain Diana Ross isn't stone and has "feels" like everyone else. I in no way was trying to diss DR. At least in this post.

My own personal thoughts are that I figured Mary would just live forever. I'll bet a lot of fans thought that way too, maybe even Diana. I think I once said it would be BG's passing that eventually would bring Diana and Mary back together, if only in the same room. I'm so glad there were a few opportunities towards the end that they were at least photographed together, smiling. Of course there will be those that pick apart how many teeth Diana was actually showing and ask for a definition of "smiling". Regardless, they looked happy to me.

[jobeterob]

I can’t resist but to me, the last picture of the two seemed like Mary going “caught you finally” and Diana looked like she drank some milk after lemon being squeezed in her mouth.

But I will also say that in all the Motown get togethers, like Martha’s star, the Motown luminaries certainly seem to love and care for each other and there is none of the questioning and parsing the real fans do.

Surely it can’t be the fans reading too much in to too little??!!

[Spreadinglove21]

Fans reading too much into something re: anything Supremes related?!!! Perish the thought!

[jobeterob]

But here is one where Diana looks thrilled and happy

[RanRan79]

No, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm certain Diana Ross isn't stone and has "feels" like everyone else. I in no way was trying to diss DR. At least in this post.

My own personal thoughts are that I figured Mary would just live forever. I'll bet a lot of fans thought that way too, maybe even Diana. I think I once said it would be BG's passing that eventually would bring Diana and Mary back together, if only in the same room. I'm so glad there were a few opportunities towards the end that they were at least photographed together, smiling. Of course there will be those that pick apart how many teeth Diana was actually showing and ask for a definition of "smiling". Regardless, they looked happy to me.

Mary was so vivacious. She oozed life of the party. Here we are three years later and it still doesn't seem real. Whenever I watch an old Supremes performance, it seems so weird to think that the Mary in those videos is gone. Lord help me if anything ever happens to Diana. My prayer is that she keeps rockin until at least 100.

It's a comfort to me that in the end, Diana and Mary were communicating. Someone said they would email each other, while someone else recalls Mary texting Diana about concert tickets for someone. For Mary to have Diana's email and phone number suggests that whatever bad blood had existed, they did what they always did: come back together.

And of course you know folks are going to pick apart every little bit of them. Diana has that same "looks like it hurts" smile on her face in every smiling photograph I've seen of her from the past 20 years, even with her kids. She would have had the same smile on her face whether Mary was in the photographs or not. But Mary was in the photos, so why not say Diana looks uncomfortable? It makes for a better story than the one where all is well, apparently.

[Ollie9]

Not a criticism by any means, but i think Diana has always been totally immersed in her own family to have spent much time grieving over Mary Wilson. The two women had not been friends for many years, who were at the end of the day work colleagues from over fifty years ago.
With Flo i would imagine it was the shock of her passing at such a young age, with the funeral being almost a precursor to Motown 25.

[BayouMotownMan]

If there was one thing Diana wasn't good at was making the best choices for her own career. Even today there are things she does that I wish someone had told her to do differently e.g. a more heartfelt statement on Mary's death. And I get she's in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation no matter what she does. I understand an artist's desire to do things their own way. Who wouldn't? She's lived a long enough life to make her own decisions. But ultimately we don't always know what's best for ourselves. That was Diana's shortfall. The Wiz is a perfect example. Without someone like Gordy guiding her, she was left to her own devices and musically suffered at a time when her contemporaries like Dionne, Gladys, Aretha, and Patti were having huge resurgences in the 80s. That could have been her but instead she made some poor choices and her music charting career ended in 1986 as a result.

Totally valid, for the ETH I did on Ross I had a guy lined up who was an intern at RCA. He sat in on a meeting with her and execs when they were about to release the Eaten Alive lp I believe it was. I wanted him on the show so badly but he bowed out. He was no longer in the business and didn't want to have blow back, which I understood. I can say it was her ruthlessness that sidetracked her RCA career and when she went limping back to Berry Gordy it was too late, the damage was permanent. RCA lost their ARSES on Diana Ross.

[jobeterob]

Not a criticism by any means, but i think Diana has always been totally immersed in her own family to have spent much time grieving over Mary Wilson. The two women had not been friends for many years, who were at the end of the day work colleagues from over fifty years ago.
With Flo i would imagine it was the shock of her passing at such a young age, with the funeral being almost a precursor to Motown 25.

I agree completely

[jim aka jtigre99]

I admit when Mary passed I scrutinized Diana's reaction and announcements. I am sure she felt sadness of the loss of a childhood friend and former work colleague, after all they conquered quite a bit together. Mary passed during Covid and all of our mindsets were on family and life. Diana has always been focused on her family. I still know that despite not being close for many years and for the public disagreements that she felt like any of us would-shock, deep sadness and remembering all of the happy good times.
I still think Motown should have recognized in Mary they would have a balladeer. They didn't owe her anything but they missed the boat. The Hal Davis LP was not one that played to her strengths. Her follow ups that they declined were much better and You Dance My Heart Around The Stars and Love Talk had real potential to hit. That would have carved her solo career. Save Me was a better up-tempo sound than the disco of Red Hot but Green River reminded me of Red Hot. Still, besides Mary Motown squandered many talented female artists-Gladys Knight, Martha Reeves, Jean Terrell, Scherrie Payne, Susaye Greene among others. I do wonder if being an Ex-Supreme was a hindrance since there was a sound expected as a solo to have that same group sound which Mary didn't have. By the time she left Motown, the industry had passed on the Supremes and wondered if Mary was good why didn't Motown still have her or use her properly.

[marybrewster]

Not a criticism by any means, but i think Diana has always been totally immersed in her own family to have spent much time grieving over Mary Wilson. The two women had not been friends for many years, who were at the end of the day work colleagues from over fifty years ago.
With Flo i would imagine it was the shock of her passing at such a young age, with the funeral being almost a precursor to Motown 25.

I understand your sentiment, but I also think Diana isn't so oblivious that she thought of Mary as simply a "work colleague from over 50 years ago". You can't tell me every time she hits the stage with her Supremes Medley that Mary and Flo don't cross her mind, if only for a brief second.

[jobeterob]

I can see the possibility that Diana may have a thought or two of Mary and also Cindy and Florence when she does a Supremes song but I think she may be comfortable feeling that all of them and her are also the authors of their own misfortunes or fortunes. Diana might be comforted by the fact she worked her butt off and also got her butt worked off by Berry and that she helped all three Supremes during their lives as well as provided opportunities to Mary and Cindy.

Diana doesn’t do much looking back and I think she said Florence was her own worst enemy.

I think we’ve answered that it wasn’t that Motown didn’t like Mary - but her voice, her work ethic, her management skills, her choice of partners and managers just didn’t mesh up for major musical success. But she certainly was still a success - as a Supreme, as an author, as an activist for other artists, as an inspirational speaker.

[RanRan79]

I can see the possibility that Diana may have a thought or two of Mary and also Cindy and Florence when she does a Supremes song but I think she may be comfortable feeling that all of them and her are also the authors of their own misfortunes or fortunes. Diana might be comforted by the fact she worked her butt off and also got her butt worked off by Berry and that she helped all three Supremes during their lives as well as provided opportunities to Mary and Cindy.

Diana doesn’t do much looking back and I think she said Florence was her own worst enemy.

I don't even think it's that deep. I'm sure, like most of us when someone we know passes away, Diana looked back over her relationship with Florence and then Mary in totality, the good and the bad. I hardly think that every time she thinks of Flo or Mary that she thinks deeply about their lives and who authored what and who was their own worst enemy, which, btw, can be applied to Diana just as easily as it can be for the rest of us, as we are often our own worst enemies. I'm sure Flo and Mary cross Diana's mind when she sings one of their songs, or hears a song that reminds her of either of them, or runs into someone they all used to know, or sees someone who has a resemblance to either woman. Diana Ross is a human being no different than the rest of us, minus the hit songs. She do all the same stuff we do when it comes to the passing of loved ones.

[Ollie9]

I understand your sentiment, but I also think Diana isn't so oblivious that she thought of Mary as simply a "work colleague from over 50 years ago". You can't tell me every time she hits the stage with her Supremes Medley that Mary and Flo don't cross her mind, if only for a brief second.

She might well do, but i don’t think it adds up to much.

[Ollie9]

I can see the possibility that Diana may have a thought or two of Mary and also Cindy and Florence when she does a Supremes song but I think she may be comfortable feeling that all of them and her are also the authors of their own misfortunes or fortunes. Diana might be comforted by the fact she worked her butt off and also got her butt worked off by Berry and that she helped all three Supremes during their lives as well as provided opportunities to Mary and Cindy.

Diana doesn’t do much looking back and I think she said Florence was her own worst enemy.

I think we’ve answered that it wasn’t that Motown didn’t like Mary - but her voice, her work ethic, her management skills, her choice of partners and managers just didn’t mesh up for major musical success. But she certainly was still a success - as a Supreme, as an author, as an activist for other artists, as an inspirational speaker.

Diana commenting that Flo was her own worst enemy revealed a complete lack of understanding of someone suffering mental health problems. I would hope that she has since revised that opinion considering she experienced her own problems with mental health and alcohol addiction.
The fact Mary felt she needed a break around the time of “Love Child” in 1968 is not a concrete reflection of her work ethic. She was always the consummate professional as a Supreme, working her butt off over the years while touring as a solo act. It’s worth noting that sometimes hard work alone is not enough, and you need some element of luck to help you on your way.
Had Mary been gifted a little more of that, particularly regarding record companies who’s to say what might have been.

[floyjoy678]

I agree that Diana shouldn't have said that about Flo especially with Diana knowing about what Flo went through with the rape, etc.

And do you guys really think they were going to use Mary on "Love Child"? I just find that one hard to believe considering she hadn't been on single since "Reflections", over a year prior. I'm kinda glad she did take a vacation if that's the case though because that is my favorite of the backgrounds that the Andantes did.

[sup_fan]

I agree that Diana shouldn't have said that about Flo especially with Diana knowing about what Flo went through with the rape, etc.

And do you guys really think they were going to use Mary on "Love Child"? I just find that one hard to believe considering she hadn't been on single since "Reflections", over a year prior. I'm kinda glad she did take a vacation if that's the case though because that is my favorite of the backgrounds that the Andantes did.

i agree. even if mary HAD been in town, it's highly debatable that they'd have bothered to use her and Cindy. they were barely on half of the recordings at this time

and the issue of Mary's worth ethic isn't solely based on her deciding to go on vacation in fall 68. it's the supposed notion that she wasn't pushing herself to go that extra mile. she was enjoying herself, partying, going out every night, not dedicating tons of time to honing her craft. it's also a matter of perspective. mary was being a typical 22 year old - i'm sure most of us were going out and partying with friends at this age and not focusing 100% of your time on work. but from the perspective of Berry and seeing what Diana was doing, there's the conflict. Berry even mentions in his book how Diana DIDN'T want to go out because she wanted to preserve her voice, even though she too was a young girl and might have liked socializing. every time diana did something like really reinforced her 100% total commitment to her work, berry seems to have double down even more on his side.

and it just makes mary's actions look even less dedicated to her work.

[Ollie9]

i agree. even if mary HAD been in town, it's highly debatable that they'd have bothered to use her and Cindy. they were barely on half of the recordings at this time

and the issue of Mary's worth ethic isn't solely based on her deciding to go on vacation in fall 68. it's the supposed notion that she wasn't pushing herself to go that extra mile. she was enjoying herself, partying, going out every night, not dedicating tons of time to honing her craft. it's also a matter of perspective. mary was being a typical 22 year old - i'm sure most of us were going out and partying with friends at this age and not focusing 100% of your time on work. but from the perspective of Berry and seeing what Diana was doing, there's the conflict. Berry even mentions in his book how Diana DIDN'T want to go out because she wanted to preserve her voice, even though she too was a young girl and might have liked socializing. every time diana did something like really reinforced her 100% total commitment to her work, berry seems to have double down even more on his side.

and it just makes mary's actions look even less dedicated to her work.

Perhaps if BG had taken just a little more interest in Mary’s potential as opposed to being totally focussed on Diana alone she might have felt a little more motivated.
She was also probably less inclined to spend those nights resting her voice as she actually got to do very little singing away from background.
For one who was supposedly less dedicated to her work, Mary always shined onstage, pushing Diana to work just that little bit harder. A fact Diana herself has admitted to.