Funny Girl - help or hinder?

[sup_fan]

some of the FG tracks rotated through a playlist i had going and it got me wondering. The goal was to help further establish Diana as a multi-faceted and multi-talented artist. and certainly having the girls perform the bulk of a musical score was a brave and unique undertaking.

But without the benefit of the screen or stage to accompany the music, you're missing a lot of the context. So songs like I'm the Greatest Star and His Love Makes Me Beautiful can come across odd, bordering on egotistical. in the show, these moments were used for Fanny/Barbra to demonstrate her resilience, how she wasn't going to be push down. they're like I Have Confidence in Sound of Music. but without that context, yikes

and then there's the issue that the show really was crafted on Broadway for Barbra and had been widely acknowledged that it was really a 1-woman show with a few things here are there for supporting players. but mostly just about the 1.

So was the project just pushing things too far for DRATS? the name change had already raised eyebrows about Diana and her solo aspirations.

[bradsupremes]

some of the FG tracks rotated through a playlist i had going and it got me wondering. The goal was to help further establish Diana as a multi-faceted and multi-talented artist. and certainly having the girls perform the bulk of a musical score was a brave and unique undertaking.

But without the benefit of the screen or stage to accompany the music, you're missing a lot of the context. So songs like I'm the Greatest Star and His Love Makes Me Beautiful can come across odd, bordering on egotistical. in the show, these moments were used for Fanny/Barbra to demonstrate her resilience, how she wasn't going to be push down. they're like I Have Confidence in Sound of Music. but without that context, yikes

and then there's the issue that the show really was crafted on Broadway for Barbra and had been widely acknowledged that it was really a 1-woman show with a few things here are there for supporting players. but mostly just about the 1.

So was the project just pushing things too far for DRATS? the name change had already raised eyebrows about Diana and her solo aspirations.

This was Berry's pet project for Diana. He was blinded by ambition on this one, not thinking or seeing clearly on the demand, need, or want for something like this. I understand what he was attempting to do, but frankly it wasn't needed or warranted. Ultimately it backfired because it became one of the group's poorest charting albums. Although she gives some really incredible vocal performances on this album, it should have been never happened or been shelved. I agree that without the context, the songs don't really work on their own as a collective tribute album. I enjoy the album both in the original form and in the Diana-Mary-Cindy mix, but I think it was probably best not to release this album and let Love Child and the Temptations duets shine.

[BayouMotownMan]

As it turns out it neither helped nor hindered the trio's popularity.

The group had been on a steady decline in 1968. This lp did not reverse that.

At the end of the year, the TCB special plus Love Child put the trio back on top with stellar sales of the soundtrack, the duet lp and the Love Child lp as well. FG was not part of this massive comeback.

As someone said earlier, the project was ill-conceived and was capitalizing on someone else's success.

[sup_fan]

the image of Diana Ross standing on the Ed Sullivan stage proclaiming - I'm The Greatest Star. even with the little bit of lead in lines/dialog can't offset the really out of place context of the moment. Frankly if the group just performed Don't Rain On My Parade, it would have probably been a more successful tv spot. wouldn't have necessarily changed the outcome of the album of course

i don't know what other "concept" album might have worked at this time. Hair? and do it with the Temps maybe instead of GIT or Together. or maybe in retrospect doing some sort of salute to more traditionally black artists or jazz, maybe as a set up for Lady.

[marybrewster]

I think there's a lot of moving parts to this question:

Wasn't there talk that Berry want to make Diana "the white Barbra Streisand"? What were the recording dates of FG? It was released in August of 1968 [[wasn't the talk that BG wanted it released before the Original Broadway Cast Recording in hopes to trump it?).

And wasn't it around this time that the Supremes were being perceived as "not being black enough"? This release certainly did the group no favors to combat that.

For all intent and purposes, isn't this basically a Diana solo record? The worst charting DMF/DMC album?

Berry was so blinded by Diana that he literally could have sunk her after this bomb. Luckily the Temptations and the Clan bounced her back.

It's really these FG performances on Sullivan that made you KNOW that it's DIANA ROSS andthesupremes.

[sup_fan]

i believe all of the recording sessions took place in July of that year. so just a month prior.

Jules Styne said he wanted to record the 3 women in front of a live orchestra. At least that concept would have been interesting.

[RanRan79]

This wasn't needed or wanted, as Brad says. Definitely a case of Gordy doing too much. It should have been shelved.

There was enough room in the stage show and on their television appearances to showcase that Diana was more than a girl group lead singer. At this point, albums were moving away from these showbiz concepts. Music was changing. The focus should have been on crafting successful albums that resonated with the public.

And then the label was cannibalizing itself, or rather the label was forcing the group to cannibalize itself. They released the TOTT live lp and the FG lp on the same day. TOTT might have done much better without FG in competition, although FG wasn't much competition anyway. And then Join and Love Child were forced into competition. I have to believe that LC would have done so much better if it didn't have to compete with Join and then TCB. There's no other reason an album titled by one of the biggest hits of the year, with a tracklist with few covers and a hipper tone than some of the group's other stuff, wasn't a top 10 smash, other than fans went for the pairing of the two groups over the one.

[sup_fan]

This wasn't needed or wanted, as Brad says. Definitely a case of Gordy doing too much. It should have been shelved.

There was enough room in the stage show and on their television appearances to showcase that Diana was more than a girl group lead singer. At this point, albums were moving away from these showbiz concepts. Music was changing. The focus should have been on crafting successful albums that resonated with the public.

And then the label was cannibalizing itself, or rather the label was forcing the group to cannibalize itself. They released the TOTT live lp and the FG lp on the same day. TOTT might have done much better without FG in competition, although FG wasn't much competition anyway. And then Join and Love Child were forced into competition. I have to believe that LC would have done so much better if it didn't have to compete with Join and then TCB. There's no other reason an album titled by one of the biggest hits of the year, with a tracklist with few covers and a hipper tone than some of the group's other stuff, wasn't a top 10 smash, other than fans went for the pairing of the two groups over the one.

having read that one idea for the LC album was to focus on serious, mature, social songs. given what was released and what we've [[so far) received as potential songs for inclusion, I think that album would have been so dreary. But as LC was released, i think having the four "serious" songs all in a row didn't help the flow of the album. and sure, there is a tune or two i'd shuffle around. but i think if you just rejiggered it a little, it would have been an easy Top 10.

but you're right. the competition held back their chart performance. same with the 70s sups and the duets

[RanRan79]

having read that one idea for the LC album was to focus on serious, mature, social songs. given what was released and what we've [[so far) received as potential songs for inclusion, I think that album would have been so dreary. But as LC was released, i think having the four "serious" songs all in a row didn't help the flow of the album. and sure, there is a tune or two i'd shuffle around. but i think if you just rejiggered it a little, it would have been an easy Top 10.

but you're right. the competition held back their chart performance. same with the 70s sups and the duets

Did we ever get an actual track list for the proposed idea? I know there was a mockup for when the lp was to be titled Somethings You Never Get Used To, but I don't remember it having the social tone.

I think if you take "Love Child", "Keep An Eye", "Does Your Mama" and pair with:

Beginning of the End of Love
Wish I Knew [[completed and with backing vocals)
Can't You See It's Me
Will This Be the Day
With a Child's Heart
A House Is Not a Home
This Time Last Summer
I See a Rainbow
Beware of a Stranger

I think it could have been a mature, more serious album, mixing social commentary with adult themes, both ballads and up tempo cuts.

[sup_fan]

Did we ever get an actual track list for the proposed idea? I know there was a mockup for when the lp was to be titled Somethings You Never Get Used To, but I don't remember it having the social tone.

I think if you take "Love Child", "Keep An Eye", "Does Your Mama" and pair with:

Beginning of the End of Love
Wish I Knew [[completed and with backing vocals)
Can't You See It's Me
Will This Be the Day
With a Child's Heart
A House Is Not a Home
This Time Last Summer
I See a Rainbow
Beware of a Stranger

I think it could have been a mature, more serious album, mixing social commentary with adult themes, both ballads and up tempo cuts.

i don't believe we've ever heard of a full track listing. some of the unreleased tunes have been noted "intended for possible inclusion on Love Child." So of course i've done the producer thing and made up a potential album, using songs i think were mostly available around the time of release. one or two might have missed the release date though

Love Child [[and i would have gone ahead and used the longer version with the extra verse)
keep an eye
can't you see it's me
ain't no sun since you've been gone
with i knew
what becomes of the brokenhearted

the nitty gritty
how long has that evening train been gone
the beginning of the end of love
in the evening of our love
if you should walk away

[lucky2012]

I like the album and I'm personally glad it was not shelved. Among the group's specialty albums, imo, it is second only to Sing Rodgers & Hart in conception and production. I love how Diana Ross had progressed and matured vocally and I love and greatly appreciate having the EE version with Mary & Cindy's vocals included alongside the original album.

I think Motown should have released it perhaps in the spring of 1969. Supposedly, Barbra Streisand wasn't pleased about it. I wonder why it had to be released even before the premiere of the movie Funny Girl and around the same time of the movie soundtrack album? Definitely a mistake and miscalculation by Berry Gordy/Motown. By spring 1969, Barbra Streisand would have already won the Best Actress Academy Award and maybe the DRATS album might not have been a sore point.

Also, by spring 1969, because of TCB, Join the Temptations, the Ed Sullivan Supremes/Tempts performance, and the growing talk of her leaving, Motown's/Gordy's designs were assumed, if still resented by some. DRATS Sing Funny Girl would also have been a nice contrast to Love Child, just as Sing RH was a contrast to Sing HDH.

[daviddh]

i liked a few songs, Coronet Man but mostly this was a miss but a few really good performances by Diana.
i have no clue as to why Mary and Cindy's vocals were removed. just ridiculous.
this album was released at the same time as Talk of the Town. just way to much product out at one time. what was BG thinking. with the wrong head, imo.
i would just stick with LC and Join . no need for this .
it was like he was shoving DR down everybodys throat.
yes i am a Ross fan but i can be objective.

[Ollie9]

i liked a few songs, Coronet Man but mostly this was a miss but a few really good performances by Diana.
i have no clue as to why Mary and Cindy's vocals were removed. just ridiculous.
this album was released at the same time as Talk of the Town. just way to much product out at one time. what was BG thinking. with the wrong head, imo.
i would just stick with LC and Join . no need for this .
it was like he was shoving DR down everybodys throat.
yes i am a Ross fan but i can be objective.

I agree with most of your bullet points. It’s as if BG was incredibly nervous to have Diana out of the public’s collective conscious even for a moment.
Timing no no aside, i think FG a sparkling album that contains some of Diana’s very best vocals. It worked in proving she could indeed do it all, being the reason for its release.
It’s been reported that Diana had a Streisand fixation, so could very well have been her as much as Gordy who pushed to have it released before the film. Who knows?.
Way to much product at once, but far to good to be canned imo.

[marybrewster]

This was touched on in another thread, and I wonder if there is any merit to it: as the focus of the Supremes into DRATS became Diana, was it more cost effective to just mass produce mediocre product to keep her name and image in the public eye? How much did it cost from start to finish to release an album in 1968? Was the group still paying for their recording sessions? Maybe it was genius on BG's part to release 6 LP's on thr group in 1968, and 5 LP's on the group in 1969. Print DIANA ROSS in the biggest, boldest font possible, and include a picture of her head 10x the size of Mary and Cindy's.

[sup_fan]

This was touched on in another thread, and I wonder if there is any merit to it: as the focus of the Supremes into DRATS became Diana, was it more cost effective to just mass produce mediocre product to keep her name and image in the public eye? How much did it cost from start to finish to release an album in 1968? Was the group still paying for their recording sessions? Maybe it was genius on BG's part to release 6 LP's on thr group in 1968, and 5 LP's on the group in 1969. Print DIANA ROSS in the biggest, boldest font possible, and include a picture of her head 10x the size of Mary and Cindy's.

since the group was already superstars, they didn't have to worry quite as much about getting #1 hits. they could branch out a bit more. it's not that they didn't want hits but they weren't quite as overly concerned. now that's not saying that they would tolerate low charters - as we've all heard about the back to back to back [[relative) flops of In and Out, Forever and Some Things and how that brought about Love Child.

my understanding is that Berry wanted to branch the group/DR out into other media and outlets. So they did Tarzan, endorsed Humphrey, the tv specials, the FG album, guest spots for DR on various shows, dancing like on Hollywood Palace with Sam and Don Mckayle and also on TCB, hosting the Hollywood Palace, multi-contracts with Vegas showrooms, product endorsements like Coke and others.

Berry didn't want people to perceive of diana as simply a martha reeves or marilyn mccoo or just some other random singer. he wanted her to be firmly in with the top tier of the entertainment world. People like Dinah, Judy, Barbra, Frank, Sammy, Bill Cosby and others. it was about career longevity

[daviddh]

for the most part ,imo, this branching out back fired. people ,including me were put off by this pushing of Ross out front. on Bob Hope the Supremes comes out wearing white short dresses, Diana is the ONLY one singing while the other two just dance around her,
ridiculous.
her talent was already there and obvious to me.

[sup_fan]

for the most part ,imo, this branching out back fired. people ,including me were put off by this pushing of Ross out front. on Bob Hope the Supremes comes out wearing white short dresses, Diana is the ONLY one singing while the other two just dance around her,
ridiculous.
her talent was already there and obvious to me.

i think that's the Hollywood Palace episode in 67 where Cindy had her debut. they're wearing the short white dresses that were part of the FG photo shoots. diana is perched in a chair or something and wheeled out, while M and C stand next to her. it was the opening medley or song, mostly sung i think by Sammie Davis Jr. maybe Diana sings a quick line or something. but it's relatively quick

however your point is well stated. often they would be SO over the top in emphasizing Diana over the other two. and given how talented diana was and how mesmerizing on stage, it just wasn't necessary. and yeah, it came across as gratuitous.

[marybrewster]

since the group was already superstars, they didn't have to worry quite as much about getting #1 hits. they could branch out a bit more. it's not that they didn't want hits but they weren't quite as overly concerned. now that's not saying that they would tolerate low charters - as we've all heard about the back to back to back [[relative) flops of In and Out, Forever and Some Things and how that brought about Love Child.

my understanding is that Berry wanted to branch the group/DR out into other media and outlets. So they did Tarzan, endorsed Humphrey, the tv specials, the FG album, guest spots for DR on various shows, dancing like on Hollywood Palace with Sam and Don Mckayle and also on TCB, hosting the Hollywood Palace, multi-contracts with Vegas showrooms, product endorsements like Coke and others.

Berry didn't want people to perceive of diana as simply a martha reeves or marilyn mccoo or just some other random singer. he wanted her to be firmly in with the top tier of the entertainment world. People like Dinah, Judy, Barbra, Frank, Sammy, Bill Cosby and others. it was about career longevity

All misfires though. I mean, COME ON. Tarzan? Endorsing HH? Funny Girl?

[jobucats]

the image of Diana Ross standing on the Ed Sullivan stage proclaiming - I'm The Greatest Star. even with the little bit of lead in lines/dialog can't offset the really out of place context of the moment. Frankly if the group just performed Don't Rain On My Parade, it would have probably been a more successful tv spot. wouldn't have necessarily changed the outcome of the album of course

i don't know what other "concept" album might have worked at this time. Hair? and do it with the Temps maybe instead of GIT or Together. or maybe in retrospect doing some sort of salute to more traditionally black artists or jazz, maybe as a set up for Lady.

Diana Ross was always my favorite; however, it really 'irked' me when I saw this Funny Girl segment on the Ed Sullivan Show back in the day; and it continues to irk me now. Yes, this was from the popular at the time Broadway show; however, it was a slap in the face to Mary and Diana. I feel like many fans who watched it were unaware of the musical and just thought it was a celebration of "Diana Ross...the Greatest Star." Total blunder. With all that said, I do love the album.

[jobucats]

First of all, I do love both versions of "Funny Girl" with just the three ladies, and with the additional background vocals. Revisiting the expanded version and the booklet has angered me; yet has made me see the reason there are those folk with animosity toward Berry Gordy's obsession with Diana and her willingness to go along with his antics.

Even Jule Styne, who wrote the music, worked in studio with the ladies, and wrote the liner notes was bothered that additional background vocals were added to the production before its release. Seriously, this was a slap in Mary and Cindy's face. I wonder if they were given a copy of the tape with just their contribution? What it must have felt like to listen to it the first time to discover your vocals have been either deleted or cushioned with other background voices? Was the production any better with those additional background voices? Not to my ears.

This was way too obvious that this was a Diana Ross project and was released way too soon before her eventual exit.

[sup_fan]

First of all, I do love both versions of "Funny Girl" with just the three ladies, and with the additional background vocals. Revisiting the expanded version and the booklet has angered me; yet has made me see the reason there are those folk with animosity toward Berry Gordy's obsession with Diana and her willingly going along with his antics.

Even Jule Styne, who wrote the music, worked in studio with the ladies, and wrote the liner notes was bothered that additional background vocals were added to the production before it's release. Seriously, this was a slap in Mary and Cindy's face. I wonder if they were given a copy of the tape with just their contribution? What it must have felt like to listen to it the first time to discover your vocals have been either deleted or cushioned with other background voices? Was the production any better with those additional background voices? Not to my ears.

This was way too obvious that this was a Diana Ross project and was released way too soon before her eventual exit.

even the selection of this show as their next project screams "solo" because this show really has almost NOTHING besides the Fanny character. yes there's the mom and her love interest. but there's no real B plotline or secondary characters with any type of interesting story arc or even songs. most other big musicals do at least have memorable songs that include characters aside from the male and female leads. this is nearly a 1-woman show and that was something it was criticized a bit back in 64 or so when it hit broadway. of course Barbra was so sensational in it, most people and critics tended to forgive the show for that. but even then, it wasn't known for it's strong book or anything - it was known as a Barbra project

[sup_fan]

All misfires though. I mean, COME ON. Tarzan? Endorsing HH? Funny Girl?

i think those were all done to simply solidify the group in the mainstream. Clearly the girls and motown would not have endorsed Nixon! lol and in reading the Call Her Miss Ross recap of the endorsement, it was a bit of a clusterF. the press sort of hounded Diana about political positions. so yep - Berry and team didn't think that one through all the way

correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall that tv shows did as much with "celebrity guest stars" in the 60s as they started doing more in the 70s and exploded with shows like Love Boat built all around the idea of guest stars. Tarzan was a very big show at the time and so this would probably have been seen as sort of a big deal. sure the girls weren't very thrilling as nuns - their acting is wooden and the whole thing is rather contrived. but it did help jumpstart the talks with NBC on TCB. the ratings for Tarzan were through the roof.

[lucky2012]

First of all, I do love both versions of "Funny Girl" with just the three ladies, and with the additional background vocals. Revisiting the expanded version and the booklet has angered me; yet has made me see the reason there are those folk with animosity toward Berry Gordy's obsession with Diana and her willingly going along with his antics.

Even Jule Styne, who wrote the music, worked in studio with the ladies, and wrote the liner notes was bothered that additional background vocals were added to the production before it's release. Seriously, this was a slap in Mary and Cindy's face. I wonder if they were given a copy of the tape with just their contribution? What it must have felt like to listen to it the first time to discover your vocals have been either deleted or cushioned with other background voices? Was the production any better with those additional background voices? Not to my ears.

This was way too obvious that this was a Diana Ross project and was released way too soon before her eventual exit.

I love having both versions, too. Thank you, George Solomon & company! I will need to listen to the EE to see if I have a preference. Do you?

I love that Jule Styne worked with the group in the studio. As I'm reading Barbra Streisand's autobiography, I have a greater appreciation for the composer. It is very significant to me how he felt about not using Mary and Cindy. I think Berry Gordy/Motown wanted a more "polished" mainstream sound, but Jule Styne, the esteemed Broadway composer himself, felt Mary and Cindy were just fine.

Revisiting the expanded version and the booklet has angered me... has made me see the reason there are those folk with animosity toward Berry Gordy's obsession with Diana and her willingly going along with his antics.

Reading this thread and others, I've come to realize how many here have really resented Berry Gordy's obsession with Diana. And I've come to understand why.

As a preteen fan, I loved the Supremes, as a group. I loved their music and their image. I also fell in love with Diana's voice. I have several favorite singers/vocalists, female and male, but none come close to Diana Ross. [Well, maybe Barbra, Aretha, Dionne, Dusty & Marvin come fairly close. ]

I was surprised, like everyone else, with the name change in 1967. But I had long thought that Diana's voice was not sufficiently recognized as the group's lead singer, and even among female vocalists in general. I guess for many, Berry Gordy's/Motown's ambitions and plans and the way they were executed, and Diana's complicitness, were excessive and outrageous [to say the least]. I was too young at the time to comprehend and understand.

Anyway, finally, I really appreciate this forum.

[sup_fan]

given Stynes work on broadway, I'm assuming he was more familiar with working with a specific ensemble of singers. even when there was a chorus. so he was accustomed to arranging for specific voices. he probably wouldn't have been directly involved in the soundtrack recordings. I don't know if shows typically included session singers to help "smooth" things out. with the movie Grease, it's my understanding that the cast recorded things like Summer Nights and maybe We Go Together. but i would guess they would not have used the stars of for ALL of the tunes. like Beauty School Dropout - i'm guessing that's not actually Stockard Channing, Dinah Manoff and others singing but female session singers.

[bradsupremes]

Everyone has stated solid points about this. There's no denying Diana's talent and the star quality she possesses and the certain "it" factor that set her apart from others, but the constant pushing of her and making her the focus of everything hurt her more than helped her. Gordy's love of her blinded him from making sensible decision that would have benefited her but also the group. It's one of the reasons why I love the "Do No Forsake" segment from the Bing Crosby special so much because its a real group effort done so well and shows you what they should have continued during those years. And it's no wonder why Mary, Flo and Cindy came to have such resentment from this period. Why Diana and especially Gordy never fully acknowledged that the ladies' feelings were merited is beyond me. It's something I wish Gordy admitted was a mistake on his part.

Even though I think this album was a mistake to have been made from the beginning, I do wish Gordy had listened to Styne's input and suggestions. Styne was quite a legend by this time and I think having it just be DMC and recorded in front of a live orchestra like most Broadway soundtracks were recorded at the time, may have given things a different flavor. I'm sure no one cared at the time when I listen to the original album now it is a bit jarring to hear three different sets of background vocals [[M&C, Andantes, Blackberries). Clearly the effort to keep things cohesive wasn't top of mind.

[Spreadinglove21]

In 1968 Diana Ross and the Supremes were supposedly one of the top acts in the US. A top act deserves to be associated with projects, that while in the commercial vein, have some sense innovation or novelty to them. Having them record the Funny Girl album and issued to compete with the movie soundtrack by Streisand and cast, was just tacky. It's something expected from a dubious fly by night record label looking for a quickie cash in by tying itselt to a high profile release in a bid to dupe the credulous members of the record buying public. Motown should have been better than that. If they wanted to give Diana Ross [[and the Supremes) a specialty standards/show tunes album that year, couldn't they have been more creative in coming up with a concept? Maybe an album of "Leading Lady" Broadway songs from various shows? A Funny Girl song could have been included, but there was no originality in having them do an album of just songs from Funny Girl. Sure, the arrangments are great, getting Jules Styne invovled [[no doubt he was paid well) and Diana's vocals were excellent, but it was still a tacky decision. Since the album didn't do well and came out with a glut of other DRATS albums that year it didn't hinder Ross or DRATS that much, but it was a wrong move.

[Ollie9]

It would be interesting to know just whose idea the album actually was, Gordy, Diana’s or perhaps both.

[sup_fan]

In 1968 Diana Ross and the Supremes were supposedly one of the top acts in the US. A top act deserves to be associated with projects, that while in the commercial vein, have some sense innovation or novelty to them. Having them record the Funny Girl album and issued to compete with the movie soundtrack by Streisand and cast, was just tacky. It's something expected from a dubious fly by night record label looking for a quickie cash in by tying itselt to a high profile release in a bid to dupe the credulous members of the record buying public. Motown should have been better than that. If they wanted to give Diana Ross [[and the Supremes) a specialty standards/show tunes album that year, couldn't they have been more creative in coming up with a concept? Maybe an album of "Leading Lady" Broadway songs from various shows? A Funny Girl song could have been included, but there was no originality in having them do an album of just songs from Funny Girl. Sure, the arrangments are great, getting Jules Styne invovled [[no doubt he was paid well) and Diana's vocals were excellent, but it was still a tacky decision. Since the album didn't do well and came out with a glut of other DRATS albums that year it didn't hinder Ross or DRATS that much, but it was a wrong move.

my guess is that they'd already sort of done that. they had the R&H collection which was a random array of tunes by the composers. then there was the canned From Broadway to Hollywood - again a random assortment. at least with FG they were focusing on 1 show and supposedly going through the array of feelings and situations that would have come with it. So it is at least a novel idea in that sense.

but yes, you're right that trying to beat Barbra's soundtrack was ill conceived.

[marybrewster]

i think those were all done to simply solidify the group in the mainstream. Clearly the girls and motown would not have endorsed Nixon! lol and in reading the Call Her Miss Ross recap of the endorsement, it was a bit of a clusterF. the press sort of hounded Diana about political positions. so yep - Berry and team didn't think that one through all the way

correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall that tv shows did as much with "celebrity guest stars" in the 60s as they started doing more in the 70s and exploded with shows like Love Boat built all around the idea of guest stars. Tarzan was a very big show at the time and so this would probably have been seen as sort of a big deal. sure the girls weren't very thrilling as nuns - their acting is wooden and the whole thing is rather contrived. but it did help jumpstart the talks with NBC on TCB. the ratings for Tarzan were through the roof.

To be fair, I looked at the top shows of 1967/1968/1969: the vast majority would not have worked with a Diana/Mary/Cindy appearance. Unless they would have made a splash on Andy Griffith or Bonanza, lol. However, there were several shows where they could have worked: The Lucy Show or Here's Lucy [[Joan Crawford famously was a guest star on one of them), Julia, or maybe the Beverly Hillbillies? Lol.

[floyjoy678]

As someone else said I don't think it helped nor hindered them. But I have to say the group had gotten incredibly corny by this point. Thank God they put out Love Child.

I do love the R&H set but think that should have been it with releasing albums with standards. They desperately needed to go in a new direction and they just kept on with the same old same old.

[RanRan79]

It would be interesting to know just whose idea the album actually was, Gordy, Diana’s or perhaps both.

I'd be interested in learning just how involved Diana was with plans for anything at this point. Was anything ever her brainchild? Or was it always Gordy saying "hey, I got an idea" and Diana going along because she felt Berry knew best?

[RanRan79]

As someone else said I don't think it helped nor hindered them. But I have to say the group had gotten incredibly corny by this point. Thank God they put out Love Child.

I do love the R&H set but think that should have been it with releasing albums with standards. They desperately needed to go in a new direction and they just kept on with the same old same old.

I agree, the R&H set should have been the last of the specialty albums. The focus should have been entirely on progressing the group's image in a changing music world. I think that could be accomplished while maintaining Diana's solo test run.

The only other "specialty" album that I would have been okay with the group doing post R&H is another Christmas album. I don't know why that wasn't on the to do list for the group- both DRATS and the 70s Supremes- nor why there wasn't a Christmas album from Diana in the 70s. I wonder if "This Christmas" was going to be the start of a Christmas album for her, or if it was always intended as a one off. I also wonder if it was her idea to do the song. I also wonder if she has a collection of Donny Hathaway albums that she regularly listens to. But that last one is neither here nor there. A Christmas album instead of LTISH or Ross78 would have been perfect.

[bradsupremes]

I'd be interested in learning just how involved Diana was with plans for anything at this point. Was anything ever her brainchild? Or was it always Gordy saying "hey, I got an idea" and Diana going along because she felt Berry knew best?

I would assume by this point she at least had to have had a clue into what Gordy wanted and in her effort to please him so much she went along, but it wouldn't surprise me if she gave him ideas. I'm sure she was certainly more involved in decision-making for something like this than Mary and Cindy were.

[sup_fan]

I agree, the R&H set should have been the last of the specialty albums. The focus should have been entirely on progressing the group's image in a changing music world. I think that could be accomplished while maintaining Diana's solo test run.

The only other "specialty" album that I would have been okay with the group doing post R&H is another Christmas album. I don't know why that wasn't on the to do list for the group- both DRATS and the 70s Supremes- nor why there wasn't a Christmas album from Diana in the 70s. I wonder if "This Christmas" was going to be the start of a Christmas album for her, or if it was always intended as a one off. I also wonder if it was her idea to do the song. I also wonder if she has a collection of Donny Hathaway albums that she regularly listens to. But that last one is neither here nor there. A Christmas album instead of LTISH or Ross78 would have been perfect.

i thought the original Merry Christmas continued to be released and was a strong seller. at least through the 60s. so since that was holding it's own, maybe they figured why bother investing in another set when the first is still selling just fine. i don't disagree that having a more mature singer would have been a nice contrast to the first Xmas set, which has them as more youthful. and of course i think having the Jean lineup doing something would be great too

perhaps the concept albums needed to evolve from being an MOR set like Sam Cooke or R&H to concepts like the original idea of Love Child with social commentary or our revised playlists that we've done on the NW set to be more cohesive and focusing on peace, love, nature and god

in some of the interviews MJC did, they talked about how the Touch album was Frank sort of working through the phases of love [[i'm sort of paraphrasing and trying to remember exactly what they said). so maybe concepts like that are more about artistic statement with their OWN music rather than always just highlighting their versatility singing other music

[BobbyC]

Broadway musical/TV soundtracks were HUGE business in the early sixties, when albums like Sound of Music, the Flying Nun and Funny girl hit #1 on the Pop charts. By 1968, that trend was severely waning, especially with the young people who actually bought records. I was a 70's kid, and I couldn't imagine anyone my age wanting to hear the Supremes or anybody else singing anything from Funny girl. To me, Hair was cool because of Aquarius was a great sound and the play had naked people in it! A Sound of Music and Funny Girl were the farthest thing from my mind. Berry was great at figuring out what old white people in dinner clubs wanted to see and hear, but by 1970 he was CLUELESS about what kids at the time wanted. He didn't want to release what's Going On so I rest my case.

[Ollie9]

Despite all the pros and cons, for me it remains a really good album that with the exception of “People” i prefer to the movie soundtrack.

[RanRan79]

It is a very good album. It was just the wrong step. Diana gives some great vocal performances throughout. I love her version of "People".

[daviddh]

To me honestly
Elvis outgrew Col Parker and should have ditched him in 1969 after opening at the Hilton.
Imo. The Supremes should have ditched BG , after TCB....
Did he think we really needed, Funny Girl
let The Sunshine In????Tarzan ,
BG didn't like Love Child
Didn't like Stoned Love
But wanted Dobbie Doo as a single.
Won't get into Last Time I Saw Him album.
BG wanted another mix of Ain't No Mountain High Enough. Then rushed out EIE.
BG lost his focus

[Ollie9]

It would be interesting to know of the thought's running through the minds of BG and Diana as they both gazed up at the film screen during that Funny Girl film premiere. ‘If only’ would be my guess.

[gman]

I haven't had time to read all the comments...yet..

I got the LP in 1969....I immediately loved side 2...other than If A Girl I didnt like side 1 much...I was 10...I was def a "fav side of a LP" person...I have a fav side of everything!

Looking back....'68 was a congested release year...what were there 7 LPs released? I guess if they had the foresight to know she'd do the remarkable Leading Lady Medley we may have not gotten this one at all...GIT was 3/4 waste...LL, Rythym of Life, and Diana and Dennis blazing singing on the Finale were all there was to listen to or watch on that mess...I do enjoy the Tempts medley from Fiddler some too....

[sup_fan]

To me honestly
Elvis outgrew Col Parker and should have ditched him in 1969 after opening at the Hilton.
Imo. The Supremes should have ditched BG , after TCB....
Did he think we really needed, Funny Girl
let The Sunshine In????Tarzan ,
BG didn't like Love Child
Didn't like Stoned Love
But wanted Dobbie Doo as a single.
Won't get into Last Time I Saw Him album.
BG wanted another mix of Ain't No Mountain High Enough. Then rushed out EIE.
BG lost his focus

from everything I've read, Berry LOVED love child. it was exactly what he was thinking would put the girls back on top, and it did.

I think the little lines about "this is the song our managers said would never make it" during Farewell and stuff was just publicity lip service about the rather scandalous nature of the song.

[bradsupremes]

from everything I've read, Berry LOVED love child. it was exactly what he was thinking would put the girls back on top, and it did.

I think the little lines about "this is the song our managers said would never make it" during Farewell and stuff was just publicity lip service about the rather scandalous nature of the song.

This is what I don't get about Gordy. He loved "Love Child," but apparently hated "Stoned Love." One is a song about a girl born out of wedlock afraid of repeating the same mistake and the other is about universal, spiritual love. And we know what a stickler he was about the image of the artists and Motown not delving into controversial topics.

[BobbyC]

I never heard that Berry hated Stoned Love

[sup_fan]

I never heard that Berry hated Stoned Love

i'm not sure if it was Frank Wilson or Barney Ales that told the story, but yeah it's been said he didn't like it

it possible that it's too cerebral. Berry was a fan of the old adage, KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. make the storyline believable, to the point, of the moment, direct. don't get all weird and fancy and confusing as that makes it harder for a general listener to pick up what the song is saying.

it's also been said by many people that Berry was very Black and White. a song was either a smash or garbage. no middle ground

so Stoned Love comes along with its unique imagery of a man on who's shoulders the world must depend. the various nature and god themes. while it's not a complex riddle, you do have to sort of listen to the lyrics to grasp it. i've had friends that are not familiar with the expanded body of the Supremes ask what the song was about when they just happen to hear it in my car or at home or whatever. they're used to Baby Love and Someday and You Keep Me Hanging On - songs that are about love and heartbreak. very straightforward.

[midnightman]

Funny Girl furthered the group's decline, as well as Motown's [[well Berry's, let's keep it 100) aspirations on Diana's emerging solo career. The material had not been hitting on anything and I think many longtime Supremes fans got turned off by songs like The Happening and In and Out of Love, songs that took them further away from the more soulful pop they were known for that was funky enough for black audiences and palatable for white audiences, so that didn't help them.

The arrival of Aretha Franklin to the pop mainstream as grittier soul music started to become a commercial force as well as James Brown's militant homegrown funk sound, psychedelic rock and soul and the debut of hard rock and what became heavy metal further put the Supremes out of the picture. Having Diana do numbers from Funny Girl and then doing TV specials with the Temptations - in which they couldn't have been any different from the more edgier Tempts if they tried, only just made Diana and the Supremes more square.

They had Love Child and that sustained them for a minute but it only was a detour until the group crashed down completely as a commercial force. Things were never the same after 1967. So even if Funny Girl hadn't come out, they would've still struggled.

[sup_fan]

Funny Girl furthered the group's decline, as well as Motown's [[well Berry's, let's keep it 100) aspirations on Diana's emerging solo career. The material had not been hitting on anything and I think many longtime Supremes fans got turned off by songs like The Happening and In and Out of Love, songs that took them further away from the more soulful pop they were known for that was funky enough for black audiences and palatable for white audiences, so that didn't help them.

The arrival of Aretha Franklin to the pop mainstream as grittier soul music started to become a commercial force as well as James Brown's militant homegrown funk sound, psychedelic rock and soul and the debut of hard rock and what became heavy metal further put the Supremes out of the picture. Having Diana do numbers from Funny Girl and then doing TV specials with the Temptations - in which they couldn't have been any different from the more edgier Tempts if they tried, only just made Diana and the Supremes more square.

They had Love Child and that sustained them for a minute but it only was a detour until the group crashed down completely as a commercial force. Things were never the same after 1967. So even if Funny Girl hadn't come out, they would've still struggled.

the Temps were the perfect example of a group evolving and updating their style. but then Otis did mention that the temp's opening at Vegas bombed. the heavier stuff like Cloud 9 did not connect with the Vegas audiences and the ongoing problems with Paul and his alcoholism.

meanwhile the sups were losing their youth audience but getting long-term, high money contracts with the big showrooms

IMO there should have been a way for the groups to bridge both audiences. and the Sups probably should have been a no-brainer for this. the new sound with Jean reinvigorated the group. but they rested on that first change and didn't continue to evolve. they could have easily maintained 2 or so stage acts - one for Vegas that was more cabaret in design and one for other venues that cut the MOR stuff and focused more on their own material.

[midnightman]

Yeah the Tempts were basically hipper with the youth than the old Vegas crowd that was now being entertained by the Sups. Berry definitely should've found a way to make it that the two would successfully mesh in a way that would've pleased both their audiences instead of alienating them. Hooking up the Sups and Tempts in 1968 was like hooking up Dionne Warwick and Sly Stone. LOL

[RanRan79]

Yeah the Tempts were basically hipper with the youth than the old Vegas crowd that was now being entertained by the Sups. Berry definitely should've found a way to make it that the two would successfully mesh in a way that would've pleased both their audiences instead of alienating them. Hooking up the Sups and Tempts in 1968 was like hooking up Dionne Warwick and Sly Stone. LOL

Oh come on now, the Supremes were hipper than Dionne. Lol

I think the two groups complimented each other very well, but like Sup said, the Tempts did a much better job of progressing with the times, which certainly was due to no small part by Norman's progressive productions. When it came to DRATS, we always have to remember that this was Diana's test run. This was no longer three friends from the projects singing around the world. This was a solo star with a backing group. So Gordy's mind was totally focused on every little thing that would help Diana when she finally transitioned from the group. That meant not always viewing singles and quality albums as priorities. He had his sights set on Hollywood, and IMO this came as a detriment to both the music of DRATS and that of the solo Diana.

It made no sense that after "Love Child" blew up, that Gordy didn't commission "the Clan" [[who in their right mind chose that as a name?) to keep writing and producing for the group, especially after "Shame" was released to nauseating success. Dumb, dumb, dumb decision.

[sup_fan]

Oh come on now, the Supremes were hipper than Dionne. Lol

I think the two groups complimented each other very well, but like Sup said, the Tempts did a much better job of progressing with the times, which certainly was due to no small part by Norman's progressive productions. When it came to DRATS, we always have to remember that this was Diana's test run. This was no longer three friends from the projects singing around the world. This was a solo star with a backing group. So Gordy's mind was totally focused on every little thing that would help Diana when she finally transitioned from the group. That meant not always viewing singles and quality albums as priorities. He had his sights set on Hollywood, and IMO this came as a detriment to both the music of DRATS and that of the solo Diana.

It made no sense that after "Love Child" blew up, that Gordy didn't commission "the Clan" [[who in their right mind chose that as a name?) to keep writing and producing for the group, especially after "Shame" was released to nauseating success. Dumb, dumb, dumb decision.

the Clan started working on Shame in November. so once LC was becoming a monster hit, Gordy did have them back in the studios preparing the follow up

I have "the Clan" as the producers for a few more tunes: Witchi-Tai-To, Son of a Preacher Man, Hey Jude, Chained To Yesterday. But i think those are more Deke Tunes than "the Clan." The Clan was Deke, Frank, Pam Sawyer, Dean Taylor and Henry Crosby, all of which were heavily involved in other productions.

Henry did Take a Closer Look At Me, may His Love Shine, Western Union Man, No Matter what sign [[along with Berry), For Better or Worse with the Temps [[along with Frank)

And of course Pam was often working with Frank on Sup things