The Supremes vs The Andantes 1960-1967

[RanRan79]

Yeah, yeah, I know, you’re probably saying “Oh gosh, not another Andantes thread!” Sorry, but this one is a must.

So the argument on the table is that the Andantes recorded as the Supremes more than Florence and Mary did during Flo’s time in the group. I don’t believe that’s true and I’m going to lay out my case for you, the jury, against the accusation by going over all the Supremes albums released during the Flo years.

My priority is to deal with the official releases during that time. If I end up with the time, I may also do known outtakes. But again, my priority is what hit the street, what the public at the time- or rather who the public at the time- was hearing as Supremes.


Meet the Supremes- The original quartet and trio are on every song. “He’s 17” may have an Andante or other added vocalist in the harmony. My suspicion is that Raynoma herself is on the record. Flo and Mary= 11. Andantes= zero with an asterisk.

Where Did Our Love Go- Flo and Mary are on all the songs. There is question that they aren’t on “Run”. I hear what sounds to me like Florence, as well as HDH is all on this song. Flo and Mary= 12. Andantes= zero, but will admit there’s a slim chance they are on “Run”.

A Bit of Liverpool- Flo and Mary= 11. Andantes= zero.

Supremes Sing Country Western and Pop- The Andantes are added onto and/or singing along with Flo and Mary throughout the album. The only songs I don’t hear Andantes on are “You Didn’t Care”, “Lazy Bones”, “Sunset” and “Rock and Roll Banjo Band”. Flo and Mary= 11. Andantes= 7.

We Remember Sam Cooke- Flo and Mary= 11. Andantes= zero.

More Hits- Mary is on every song. Florence is on every song except “Mother Dear”. The Andantes are on “Stop”. Marlene is on “Mother Dear”. Mary= 12. Flo= 11. Andantes= 1.5.

Merry Christmas- I still swear I hear Flo on “Santa”, but I won’t officially count it. Flo and Mary= “zero”. Andantes= 12.

At the Copa- Flo and Mary= 13. Andantes= zero.

I Hear a Symphony- Diana has two solos. Flo and Mary are on every cut except “Without a Song” and “Any Girl In Love”, both of which have the Andantes instead. Flo and Mary= 8. Andantes= 2.

Supremes A Go Go- Diana has one solo. Flo is on every cut except “Hurry” and “Put Yourself In My Place”. Mary is on every cut except “Put Yourself In My Place”. The Andantes are on “Place” and Marlene is on “Hurry”. Flo= 9. Mary= 10. Andantes= 1.5.

Edit: I forgot that the Andantes are on "Come and Get These Memories" along with Mary and Flo. That would make it Andantes= 2.5.

Supremes Sing HDH- Flo and Mary are on every cut except “Same Old Song” and “No Stopping Us”, which is the Andantes. The Andantes are added onto “Love Is Here”, “Heat Wave” and “Going Down”. Flo and Mary= 10. Andantes= 2+3.

Supremes Sing Rodgers and Hart- Flo and Mary= 12. Andantes= zero.

Supremes Greatest Hits 1&2- Flo and Mary are on every cut except “There’s No Stopping Us Now”. The Andantes are added onto “Stop In the Name of Love”. Flo and Mary= 19. Andantes= 1.5.

Now, I’ve laid out my case for the jury. Anyone willing to argue against my findings? If so, please list which particular findings you dispute.

After final arguments, the jury will deliberate and come to a united consensus of the forum to state in finality whether or not the Andantes were on more Supremes records than the Supremes themselves. Thank you.

[Boogiedown]

this is nice to see. the integrity of the group largely remains intact until 1967.... [if adding voices to embellish Mary's and Flo's is considered acceptable. ] Maybe after the Christmas album was made, Florence did threaten to kick some ass .

then: ???

maybe it was intentional ... to erase any distinctive "Supremes" sound so that the only voice that mattered was DRs. Then Ross could go "solo" but continue with a sound that was still backed up by the needed additional voices ... only now they no longer had to credit them [the whoevers] as the Supremes .

[floyjoy678]

Ran I don't know if you were involved with the Yahoo groups years ago but somehow I ended up exchanging emails with Martha Reeves, Mary Weiss, Ronnie Spector and Louvain Demps. I wish I saved them, there was a lot of great info relayed to me.


I agree with most of your list but Louvain did say two songs where there is an Andante or two helping out Mary and Flo that is not on your list. I will not say which two songs they are as I know there's some people here that will twist my words around to diminish Mary and Flo's contributions.

[Boogiedown]

Ran I don't know if you were involved with the Yahoo groups years ago but somehow I ended up exchanging emails with Martha Reeves, Mary Weiss, Ronnie Spector and Louvain Demps. I wish I saved them, there was a lot of great info relayed to me.


I agree with most of your list but Louvain did say two songs where there is an Andante or two helping out Mary and Flo that is not on your list. I will not say which two songs they are as I know there's some people here that will twist my words around to diminish Mary and Flo's contributions.

but that would be a cover-up.:[[
It wouldn't be some people that diminish M & Fs contributions.... that would fall at the feet of Motown. How do your words get twisted? Truth is truth.

[Ollie9]

this is nice to see. the integrity of the group largely remains intact until 1967.
maybe it was intentional ... to erase any distinctive "Supremes" sound so that the only voice that mattered was DRs.

I think there is more than a little truth in that….
So many fans enjoy those early recordings for what became known as the Supremes sound.
It’s significant that the signature of all three women was featured on the cover of “More Hits”, proving the appeal of a group featuring three distinctive voices.
I think the role of the Andantes is occasionally overplayed by some to downplay Mary and Flo’s contribution and involvement to the groups recording success. It’s all about Diana after all.
Ran’s list looks pretty accurate to me in proving that Flo and Mary were featured on the bulk of those recordings made during that time frame.

[carlo]

There have been just a few threads in the past, on this subject [sarcasm ], where other members contributed lists and/or quantified the number of recordings on which the Andantes appeared on. I am including the links below to the most helpful threads/posts, as reference. I don't think we will ever have a 100% correct list, solely based on listening to the recordings, but I would generally agree with what was previously presented in these threads below. It is clear that Mary and Flo sang on the bulk of the recordings up until 1967. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed or intentionally trying to stir the pot by purposely posting incorrect statements.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...the-Background

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...185#post424185

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...724#post405724

[SatansBlues]

Did you intend to leave out all the unreleased material?

[antceleb12]

Very interesting thread!

I’ve also always sworn I could hear Flo on “Santa Clause is Coming to Town,” even with the knowledge that they did not provide background vocals.

That being said, I’m not convinced Flo is singing on “I Hear a Symphony” [[the song). Especially after listening to the alternate extended mix on the IHAS Expanded album, it sounds like Mary and possibly Marlene.

What I find interesting is, in my view, I think Motown took a little more effort in the early years to make the Andantes’ presence on Supremes records a little more subtle. Meaning that they were added to add body to the sound, but Mary and Flo were still driving the background. Then once the Supremes started going out on the road more and more focus was put on Diana, it seemed less of a priority to preserve the original DMF blend.

[RanRan79]

Ran I don't know if you were involved with the Yahoo groups years ago but somehow I ended up exchanging emails with Martha Reeves, Mary Weiss, Ronnie Spector and Louvain Demps. I wish I saved them, there was a lot of great info relayed to me.


I agree with most of your list but Louvain did say two songs where there is an Andante or two helping out Mary and Flo that is not on your list. I will not say which two songs they are as I know there's some people here that will twist my words around to diminish Mary and Flo's contributions.

I don't know how many Yahoo Groups I belonged to, but of the Motown ones, I really was only active in the Flo Ballard group.

Please list what two songs you're referring to. The worst that could happen is someone is going to disagree. Maybe I only speak for myself, but as a lover of history, whenever a subject is presented, I like to have all the facts. And if something is in dispute, I like knowing what both sides have to say. I want to believe that most of us in the forum are this way. I really would love to know what two songs Louvain says they're with Flo and Mary on. Like when Brad- or was it Danman- pointed out to me that Marlene is on "Mother Dear" and "Mr. Sandman" instead of Flo. I hated to learn that, particularly about "Mr. Sandman" as I really like it, but kind of couldn't care less about "Mother Dear" or who is or isn't on it as I don't like it [[the More Hits version). When I went back to listen to them both, I went "doh!" in my Homer Simpson voice because it sure does sound like Marlene. So your information would certainly be appreciated, whether I hear additional voices or not.

[RanRan79]

I think there is more than a little truth in that….
So many fans enjoy those early recordings for what became known as the Supremes sound.
It’s significant that the signature of all three women was featured on the cover of “More Hits”, proving the appeal of a group featuring three distinctive voices.
I think the role of the Andantes is occasionally overplayed by some to downplay Mary and Flo’s contribution and involvement to the groups recording success. It’s all about Diana after all.
Ran’s list looks pretty accurate to me in proving that Flo and Mary were featured on the bulk of those recordings made during that time frame.

That's how I feel too Ollie, but sometimes I have to wonder if maybe I'm just being too sensitive. But now we have posts that are outright saying the Andantes were on more Supremes songs than Flo and Mary. I think the legacy of Flo and Mary deserved an examination.

[RanRan79]

There have been just a few threads in the past, on this subject [sarcasm ], where other members contributed lists and/or quantified the number of recordings on which the Andantes appeared on. I am including the links below to the most helpful threads/posts, as reference. I don't think we will ever have a 100% correct list, solely based on listening to the recordings, but I would generally agree with what was previously presented in these threads below. It is clear that Mary and Flo sang on the bulk of the recordings up until 1967. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed or intentionally trying to stir the pot by purposely posting incorrect statements.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...the-Background

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...185#post424185

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...724#post405724

I thought I had done this before! Thanks Carlo. Geez, I went into way more detail in that first thread. Good grief! I guess I had the time.

That's a lot of information. It'll be interesting to go back over it and see if any of my selections have changed. Certainly "Mother Dear" and "Mr. Sandman" have.

[RanRan79]

Did you intend to leave out all the unreleased material?

You must have missed this part: "My priority is to deal with the official releases during that time. If I end up with the time, I may also do known outtakes. But again, my priority is what hit the street, what the public at the time- or rather who the public at the time- was hearing as Supremes."

I barely had time to do what I did. Had I gone over all the unreleased material during the Flo years, I might still be writing. Now that I see that Carlo has linked to an earlier thread I did on the subject, it looks like I did go into outtakes on there, so I really don't feel the need to do it here. I will say, just going off the top of my head, the Andantes are not on any of the Meet the Supremes outtakes, and there may be one WDOLG outtake that the Andantes might be added onto in addition to Flo and Mary [["Send Me No Flowers"). I do think the Andantes use increased with outtakes recorded in 1965 and up to when Flo left. Without counting, I'm betting more Andantes songs were vaulted than released at the time.

[RanRan79]

Very interesting thread!

I’ve also always sworn I could hear Flo on “Santa Clause is Coming to Town,” even with the knowledge that they did not provide background vocals.

That being said, I’m not convinced Flo is singing on “I Hear a Symphony” [[the song). Especially after listening to the alternate extended mix on the IHAS Expanded album, it sounds like Mary and possibly Marlene.

What I find interesting is, in my view, I think Motown took a little more effort in the early years to make the Andantes’ presence on Supremes records a little more subtle. Meaning that they were added to add body to the sound, but Mary and Flo were still driving the background. Then once the Supremes started going out on the road more and more focus was put on Diana, it seemed less of a priority to preserve the original DMF blend.

Interesting take on "I Hear A Symphony". I believe Flo is on it, but I'll give it a further examination and see if my ears have been deceived. Lol

[floyjoy678]

Well since I Hear A Symphony was brought up, Louvain did say she helped out Mary and Flo with that one.

She also said Jackie helped out on Run, Run, Run and Lovelight. I still hear Flo loud and clear on those, but you can hear Jackie's heavy sound in there too.

[sup_fan]

it's pretty clear in the early years that the As were really just used to enhance the vocals and give the record a more full sound.

I believe the As are also on Lovelight but they're more in the background. on Run, they're there in full force.

what is also curious are some of the inconsistencies. seems like on Back In My Arms they wanted a fuller sound so they layered two M and F vocal takes. sounds amazing. so why didn't they just do that more often? like on Stop and Symphony where it seems, again, they wanted a fuller sound.

on Whisper they used the Mary Wells backing track but had M and F record their own backing vocals. but then on Any Girl In Love [[which i believe was intended for Kim Weston) they just kept the As backing vocals

[blackguy69]

It’s already been mentioned that Jackie filled in . Doesn’t sound like all three was there.

it's pretty clear in the early years that the As were really just used to enhance the vocals and give the record a more full sound.

I believe the As are also on Lovelight but they're more in the background. on Run, they're there in full force.

what is also curious are some of the inconsistencies. seems like on Back In My Arms they wanted a fuller sound so they layered two M and F vocal takes. sounds amazing. so why didn't they just do that more often? like on Stop and Symphony where it seems, again, they wanted a fuller sound.

on Whisper they used the Mary Wells backing track but had M and F record their own backing vocals. but then on Any Girl In Love [[which i believe was intended for Kim Weston) they just kept the As backing vocals

[Boogiedown]

Well since I Hear A Symphony was brought up, Louvain did say she helped out Mary and Flo with that one.

She also said Jackie helped out on Run, Run, Run and Lovelight. I still hear Flo loud and clear on those, but you can hear Jackie's heavy sound in there too.

Well that didn't exactly open the sky with a cloudburst and lightning.
But thanks for adding an additional piece to the puzzle with your insider knowledge.

[Boogiedown]

it's pretty clear in the early years that the As were really just used to enhance the vocals and give the record a more full sound.

But is this just a nice way of saying the Supremes vocals didn't cut it when left on their own??

Actually this doesn't bother me when the intent is to get a better or as you say "more full" sound on the record. The actual Supremes are carrying the weight.

So then comes this Christmas album .....it must have been a logistics issue. For one thing it was never material that would be incorporated into the act .... to be performed by them. In those days I'm not even sure they realized this album would be dragged out again year after year ... Maybe they planned for it to be pressed once for that Christmas and that would be it ...

[sup_fan]

if you've not already, check out the original version of Lazy Bones on the Motown Unreleased 1963 and compare to the released version on the album. DMF absolutely sing it beautifully but the effect of the added vocals way back in the mix gives the overall recording a presence that the original just didn't have. i'll be the first to admit i really know nothing about sound engineering or recording studio witchcraft lol. i also know nothing about the technological developments of recording techniques. I don't know if there were other ways they could have simulated this effect. i don't know how easy it was/was not to layer vocals back in 1963. but in the end, i think the released version stands up the best

now compare the unreleased Funny How Time with the released version. There's so much more going on in the backing vocals of the released version. Why they didn't do more with M and F? i don't know. clearly given the vocal work they did on Sunset, Lazy, etc it wasn't a matter of the producer thinking "hmm M and F can't really cut it, they can't handle what i have in mind." I would think it was more a matter of "ok we cut this song and now it's actually moving into QC and getting ready to be included on an album release. the current product is good but needs a bit more oomph. let's add some additional backing vocals." when they would do something like that, they could have certainly gone and scheduled M and F for more time. then they would have had to schedule rehearsal time, get things in order, etc. and but 65 the availability of M and F might have been a challenge. the As also had excellent skills in coming up with what to sing. often the producer did NOT have to say "i want you to sing exactly this..." it might be the producer said "hey i need something to fill in here - can you guys come up with something and let's just record it and go." and then the As would work it out, lay it down and they're done.

[sup_fan]

So then comes this Christmas album .....it must have been a logistics issue. For one thing it was never material that would be incorporated into the act .... to be performed by them. In those days I'm not even sure they realized this album would be dragged out again year after year ... Maybe they planned for it to be pressed once for that Christmas and that would be it ...

my guess is that it was a logistics issue. Harvey Fuqua was the producer of these sessions and also headed up the Artist Dev program. some have said that he wasn't thrilled with M and F and their work ethic/approach in regards to the preparation for the Copa gig. maybe that colored things, since this was recorded barely a monthly after the end of the Copa run. there's the story that people felt they weren't working as hard as Diana. and then when all of the Xmas stuff was being prepared, supposedly M and F were on vacation while D was in the studio.

I'm just piecing this together from a bunch of various stories and statements in books, on here, etc. obviously i wasn't there to witness this in person.

also weren't the christmas things recorded in LA? or was that only the backing tracks? did diana do her parts in Detroit?

[bradsupremes]

also weren't the christmas things recorded in LA? or was that only the backing tracks? did diana do her parts in Detroit?

The tracks were cut in Los Angeles. Diana's vocals were done in Detroit.

[blackguy69]

I had to search to find this post from a few years back:


The liner notes to the 2017 CD reissue state that Diana worked through her vacation to do the lead solos and "the other girls" came in later to add their backgrounds and then the Andantes were added to the mix. The liner notes were written by Joe Marchese and the recordings produced by Andy and George. Had this not been true, I imagine Andy and George would have intervened to correct the record. Mary was dubbed into a "duet" on the Christmas Song, which is my singular favorite Mary vocal of them all, so clearly sang for the sessions. Not sure why this is still a debate.

my guess is that it was a logistics issue. Harvey Fuqua was the producer of these sessions and also headed up the Artist Dev program. some have said that he wasn't thrilled with M and F and their work ethic/approach in regards to the preparation for the Copa gig. maybe that colored things, since this was recorded barely a monthly after the end of the Copa run. there's the story that people felt they weren't working as hard as Diana. and then when all of the Xmas stuff was being prepared, supposedly M and F were on vacation while D was in the studio.

I'm just piecing this together from a bunch of various stories and statements in books, on here, etc. obviously i wasn't there to witness this in person.

also weren't the christmas things recorded in LA? or was that only the backing tracks? did diana do her parts in Detroit?

[sup_fan]

I had to search to find this post from a few years back:


The liner notes to the 2017 CD reissue state that Diana worked through her vacation to do the lead solos and "the other girls" came in later to add their backgrounds and then the Andantes were added to the mix. The liner notes were written by Joe Marchese and the recordings produced by Andy and George. Had this not been true, I imagine Andy and George would have intervened to correct the record. Mary was dubbed into a "duet" on the Christmas Song, which is my singular favorite Mary vocal of them all, so clearly sang for the sessions. Not sure why this is still a debate.

i adore mary's lead on Christmas Song too!! even if this was just sort of a "rehearsal" recording, this is one of her most engaging and lush leads. i don't know if there could be a better fit for her style and sound. and when she sings Merry Christmas as 1:42 i get chills

as for the who recorded the backing vocals, it is certainly possible that some could have included M and F. we all know the info in the booklets is only what we can find today. there are missing dates and sources. but the line your referring to in the booklet is a quote from Diana to a reporter back in the 60s. it isn't exactly being stated by the production team for this EE.

"I had been working hard and I had been doing a lot of sessions and lot of times I would make the sessions alone. I event took my vacation to do a whole Christmas album while the other girls went on vacation. But I figured I wanted to get the settled and straight. Then they came in and did the background later. the lead voice took more time to record than the background, so i never took a vacation" Diana Ross

yes it is certainly possible that M and F did actually come in. but it's also possible that Diana was just filling in the story for the sake of the interview. it was already a bit controversial that she even discussed this but it's out there. perhaps she made the statement on M and F just to smooth things out a bit.

from the data we have, backing vocals were recorded on 9/1, 9/9, 9/13, 9/16 and 9/21

we know that the group was in Philly on 9/10 and 11 and San jose 9/17 - 26.

[floyjoy678]

The Ronettes were probably the worst with replacing the background vocals. There's only a handful of songs that Estelle and Nedra are on. Neither of them are on the big hits like Be My Baby and Baby I Love You. And often, Phil would keep Ronnie in California to record and they'd send a look alike cousin out on tour to replace her on tour lol.

[Boogiedown]

if you've not already, check out the original version of Lazy Bones on the Motown Unreleased 1963 and compare to the released version on the album. DMF absolutely sing it beautifully but the effect of the added vocals way back in the mix gives the overall recording a presence that the original just didn't have. i'll be the first to admit i really know nothing about sound engineering or recording studio witchcraft lol. i also know nothing about the technological developments of recording techniques. I don't know if there were other ways they could have simulated this effect. i don't know how easy it was/was not to layer vocals back in 1963. but in the end, i think the released version stands up the best

[RanRan79]

Well since I Hear A Symphony was brought up, Louvain did say she helped out Mary and Flo with that one.

She also said Jackie helped out on Run, Run, Run and Lovelight. I still hear Flo loud and clear on those, but you can hear Jackie's heavy sound in there too.

I can believe all three of those are true.

[RanRan79]

I'm surprised the folks who take every opportunity to suggest that Flo and Mary were so often replaced haven't popped in here to take issue with my findings. I would think they would at least call my post bunk and then present their own examination of the recordings, but...crickets. Go figure.

[Boogiedown]

supfan: "I had been working hard and I had been doing a lot of sessions and lot of times I would make the sessions alone. [sounds like the lack of importance of the "other girls" took place early on] I event took my vacation to do a whole Christmas album while the other girls went on vacation. But I figured I wanted to get the settled and straight. Then they came in and did the background later. the lead voice took more time to record than the background, so i never took a vacation" Diana Ross

this is still ambiguous, "they" does not automatically equate as it being Mary and Florence.

[sup_fan]

this is still ambiguous, "they" does not automatically equate as it being Mary and Florence.

i think it's rather clear. first of all, the As were a relatively well-kept motown secret. at least when it came to their being used on the girl group records. sure, well you listen to Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops and you hear the female voices, you knew other singers are on the record besides the men. but for the most part, it was a company secret that Mary, Cindy, Flo, Rosalind, Katherine and the rest weren't singing on their respective group recordings.

so in the earlier sentence she said "the girls." of course she wasn't referring to several random women on the street - she was referencing M and F. and then in the following sentence she says "they." so basic grammar rules would infer that the "they" is in reference to "the girls" in the prior sentence

[sup_fan]

I'm surprised the folks who take every opportunity to suggest that Flo and Mary were so often replaced haven't popped in here to take issue with my findings. I would think they would at least call my post bunk and then present their own examination of the recordings, but...crickets. Go figure.

haha cuz we've grown to ignore you Ran lol jk xoxox

i think most of your examples are relatively accurate. there were a couple of omissions but we've called those out - like Symphony and Lovelight.

in rereading it, i would say M and F are on Without A Song on Symphony. out of curiousity, what led you to believe it's the As

[Boogiedown]

supfan ---i think it's rather clear. first of all, the As were a relatively well-kept motown secret. at least when it came to their being used on the girl group records. sure, well you listen to Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops and you hear the female voices, you knew other singers are on the record besides the men. but for the most part, it was a company secret that Mary, Cindy, Flo, Rosalind, Katherine and the rest weren't singing on their respective group recordings.

so in the earlier sentence she said "the girls." of course she wasn't referring to several random women on the street - she was referencing M and F. and then in the following sentence she says "they." so basic grammar rules would infer that the "they" is in reference to "the girls" in the prior sentence

UNLESS of course one is intentionally manipulating basic grammar rules so that the listener can conclude falsely that she's meaning Flo and Mary as to not reveal the "company secret" Andantes.
Also since Diana was long done and gone and wasn't there .....how does she know who was in there doing the Christmas back-ups??

{Odd that even then Diana is distancing herself from Flo and Mary by not simply using their names when talking about them instead of as some distant acquaintances ....}


"several random women on the street" hee haw!

[sup_fan]

UNLESS of course one is intentionally manipulating basic grammar rules so that the listener can conclude falsely that she's meaning Flo and Mary as to not reveal the "company secret" Andantes.
Also since Diana was long done and gone and wasn't there .....how does she know who was in there doing the Christmas back-ups??

{Odd that even then Diana is distancing herself from Flo and Mary by not simply using their names when talking about them instead of as some distant acquaintances ....}


"several random women on the street" hee haw!

lol - can't you see Diana leaning out a window at Hitsville - "Hey you!! we need a few woman singers!! Get in here!" lol

i still think the fact that Diana even mentioned all of this was a bit surprising. like the interview where she sort of dogged Sullivan and said how they just rush her on and off the stage. and in that same interview Mary talked about how they needed to share the leads more and it was straining Diana's voice. After that interview [[i think it was Look in 66 or so) Berry supposedly scolded the girls and said they were far too candid.

[Boogiedown]

lol one of them was Syreeta and a star is born

i still think the fact that Diana even mentioned all of this was a bit surprising.

She's bitching. She's really upset that those other two girls [what are their names again??]
got to go on vacation and she didn't.

[Spreadinglove21]

So does anyone know if Diana Ross ever stood up for the integrity of the group's recordings and attempted to object to the use of the Andantes in place of MF/C on their recordings?

Or was she indifferent as to who was on background so long as she kept on singing lead on nearly all the recordings?

Or any evidence she advocated for the use of the Andantes in place of MF/C for whatever reasons?

[SatansBlues]

The Ronettes were probably the worst with replacing the background vocals. There's only a handful of songs that Estelle and Nedra are on. Neither of them are on the big hits like Be My Baby and Baby I Love You. And often, Phil would keep Ronnie in California to record and they'd send a look alike cousin out on tour to replace her on tour lol.

I've read where Motown did the same thing, once early on with the Marvelettes and again with Mary Wells.

[sup_fan]

So does anyone know if Diana Ross ever stood up for the integrity of the group's recordings and attempted to object to the use of the Andantes in place of MF/C on their recordings?

Or was she indifferent as to who was on background so long as she kept on singing lead on nearly all the recordings?

Or any evidence she advocated for the use of the Andantes in place of MF/C for whatever reasons?

during most of this time, the recordings were all done separately. the dates that the lead vocals were recorded usually had nothing to do with when other parts of the track were being done. sometimes the lead was recorded with only the most bare bones of tracks. later strings, horns, additional instruments, backing vocals, etc were all added.

Diana was also recording zillions of tunes, most of which were never released. sometimes the Sups vocals were wiped out and another artist added vocals. i don't think she was necessarily aware of things, other than when Flo was a no show. she certainly wouldn't necessarily be worrying herself about whatever schedule was being built for M and F to record, diana had enough on her plate. Also neither she nor F or M really had any involvement with the finishing of a recorded product. the producers were the ones adding components, mixing things. Diana certainly wouldn't have been the one going into a studio and instructing HDH to turn the backing vocals on YCHL so far back into the mix.

and during the DMF years, there is only that 1 story from Randy of Flo supposedly demanding the additional vocalists being removed from [[supposedly) The Happening. i'm not sure this story is fully accurate. not because Randy was trying to stir up drama or anything bad but because there were so many instances of other vocalist being on Sup records, why cause a ruckus now? why this record?

supposedly for Symphony, M and F did their vocals WITH one of the As - marlene maybe? for nathan jones, it was JMC and Clydie. Flo certainly knew she didn't bother to show up for the YCHL session. and both she and M would have been aware of their [[supposedly) not singing any Xmas tunes.

i think this "territorial" nature is more fan imposed that something the girls were concerned with. again during the DMF years, it was more here and there rather than a majority of the time. and it really did seem to be about efficiency - get product out to drive sales.

during the DRATS years, it was a bit more blatant. and quite frankly also during the Jean years.

[RanRan79]

haha cuz we've grown to ignore you Ran lol jk xoxox

i think most of your examples are relatively accurate. there were a couple of omissions but we've called those out - like Symphony and Lovelight.

in rereading it, i would say M and F are on Without A Song on Symphony. out of curiousity, what led you to believe it's the As

Well you didn't ignore me Sup. Funny, but those others who make it a point to reply to me that the Andantes were the Supremes now all of a sudden want to ignore. I mean not one peep. I think that says a lot. Moving on...

It doesn't sound like Flo to me on "Without a Song". It could be Mary. It could also be both Mary and Flo, but I definitely hear who I think is either Louvain or Jackie very prominently, leading me to believe it's the Andantes and not Flo and/or Mary.

Does anyone have any good way of telling the difference among the individual Andantes voices? For instance, who's doing the "solo" parts on "Aint That Peculiar" or "My Guy"? Any other examples? It sucks that the one single the Andantes have has Ann Bogan on lead.

[bradsupremes]

Does anyone have any good way of telling the difference among the individual Andantes voices? For instance, who's doing the "solo" parts on "Aint That Peculiar" or "My Guy"? Any other examples? It sucks that the one single the Andantes have has Ann Bogan on lead.

They are few and far between but there are some moments where each Andante stands out. They all have speaking parts in Barbara McNair's version of "Fancy Passes."
Marlene: "That man is rare, Miss McNair."
Louvain: "Did he buy you a mink?"
Jackie: "And a caddy too?"
Marlene: "You're speaking of?"
Jackie: "Your Romeo?"

Louvain was the first soprano and belted out the high notes. She sings the solo intro on The Originals' "The Exodus Song" from 1972. You can pick her out belting the high note at the end of the Supremes' "MacArthur Park," doing the high "ahh" in "Love Child" and "Bernadette."

Marlene was a mezzo soprano and had a timbre that was a cross between Mary and Florence. She had a solo singing the intro to P.J.'s "T.L.C." from 1971. If you listen to "Sadie, Sadie" from the Supremes Funny Girl album, she's the prominent voice saying "I think she just got married." At the very beginning of the Supremes version of "Slow Down," she's singing the high "Slow down" and "how could she love him?" Of course, she's the soprano singing with Mary on "You Can't Hurry Love," "Reflections," "Sincerely." And the top part of "Mister Sandman." I always felt her and Mary sounded great together, a very nice blend into one unified sound/voice. I can see why Motown was considering her for Flo's replacement.

Jackie was the contralto, bottom voice of the group. Her voice was most distinctive. Very hard to describe it, but a very throaty sound. Some have said that sometimes the Andantes sounded like they were singing with marshmallows in their mouths, I think it was Jackie's voice that made it that way sometimes. - There is a moment in Soupy Sales' "MuckArty Park" after the instrumental break where she sings "ahh's" by herself. On the Marvelettes' "Someday We'll Be Together," she's the deep voice who holds the "together" for a bit longer than the others at the intro.

[Ollie9]

They are few and far between but there are some moments where each Andante stands out. They all have speaking parts in Barbara McNair's version of "Fancy Passes."
Marlene: "That man is rare, Miss McNair."
Louvain: "Did he buy you a mink?"
Jackie: "And a caddy too?"
Marlene: "You're speaking of?"
Jackie: "Your Romeo?"

Louvain was the first soprano and belted out the high notes. She sings the solo intro on The Originals' "The Exodus Song" from 1972. You can pick her out belting the high note at the end of the Supremes' "MacArthur Park," doing the high "ahh" in "Love Child" and "Bernadette."

Marlene was a mezzo soprano and had a timbre that was a cross between Mary and Florence. She had a solo singing the intro to P.J.'s "T.L.C." from 1971. If you listen to "Sadie, Sadie" from the Supremes Funny Girl album, she's the prominent voice saying "I think she just got married." At the very beginning of the Supremes version of "Slow Down," she's singing the high "Slow down" and "how could she love him?" Of course, she's the soprano singing with Mary on "You Can't Hurry Love," "Reflections," "Sincerely." And the top part of "Mister Sandman." I always felt her and Mary sounded great together, a very nice blend into one unified sound/voice. I can see why Motown was considering her for Flo's replacement.

Jackie was the contralto, bottom voice of the group. Her voice was most distinctive. Very hard to describe it, but a very throaty sound. Some have said that sometimes the Andantes sounded like they were singing with marshmallows in their mouths, I think it was Jackie's voice that made it that way sometimes. - There is a moment in Soupy Sales' "MuckArty Park" after the instrumental break where she sings "ahh's" by herself. On the Marvelettes' "Someday We'll Be Together," she's the deep voice who holds the "together" for a bit longer than the others at the intro.

Thanks for the breakdown brad. Interesting stuff.

[floyjoy678]

Flo knew Cindy was traveling with them at the Copa but then she was gone after that until the Flamingo engagement. So I wonder if after the Copa maybe Flo started to feel a little bit more secure about being back in the group.

It's said that Mary and Diana convinced Flo to come back. I can only imagine how that conversation went: "I know we just told you we don't want you in the group anymore...but for old times sake why don't you join us at the Copa?".

[sup_fan]

They are few and far between but there are some moments where each Andante stands out. They all have speaking parts in Barbara McNair's version of "Fancy Passes."
Marlene: "That man is rare, Miss McNair."
Louvain: "Did he buy you a mink?"
Jackie: "And a caddy too?"
Marlene: "You're speaking of?"
Jackie: "Your Romeo?"

Louvain was the first soprano and belted out the high notes. She sings the solo intro on The Originals' "The Exodus Song" from 1972. You can pick her out belting the high note at the end of the Supremes' "MacArthur Park," doing the high "ahh" in "Love Child" and "Bernadette."

Marlene was a mezzo soprano and had a timbre that was a cross between Mary and Florence. She had a solo singing the intro to P.J.'s "T.L.C." from 1971. If you listen to "Sadie, Sadie" from the Supremes Funny Girl album, she's the prominent voice saying "I think she just got married." At the very beginning of the Supremes version of "Slow Down," she's singing the high "Slow down" and "how could she love him?" Of course, she's the soprano singing with Mary on "You Can't Hurry Love," "Reflections," "Sincerely." And the top part of "Mister Sandman." I always felt her and Mary sounded great together, a very nice blend into one unified sound/voice. I can see why Motown was considering her for Flo's replacement.

Jackie was the contralto, bottom voice of the group. Her voice was most distinctive. Very hard to describe it, but a very throaty sound. Some have said that sometimes the Andantes sounded like they were singing with marshmallows in their mouths, I think it was Jackie's voice that made it that way sometimes. - There is a moment in Soupy Sales' "MuckArty Park" after the instrumental break where she sings "ahh's" by herself. On the Marvelettes' "Someday We'll Be Together," she's the deep voice who holds the "together" for a bit longer than the others at the intro.

that's a great way to describe jackie and the A's sound. On some songs, they lend a heaviness to the vocals. on Forever Came Today and In And Out, i think the heaviness overwhelms the song. the voices are bogged down. on Love Child though it works.

[sup_fan]

Flo knew Cindy was traveling with them at the Copa but then she was gone after that until the Flamingo engagement. So I wonder if after the Copa maybe Flo started to feel a little bit more secure about being back in the group.

It's said that Mary and Diana convinced Flo to come back. I can only imagine how that conversation went: "I know we just told you we don't want you in the group anymore...but for old times sake why don't you join us at the Copa?".

was it D and M? i too would agree that would be a VERY awkward discussion. i wouldn't be surprised if WASN'T D and M that talked to flo about this. but maybe Ester or Gwen Gordy. the staff. here's the timeline as we mostly know it:

4/23/67 - Loyola Field House. this is the night M and D did a duet
4/29 - Hollywood bowl

so sometime between the 23nd and 29th i guess was this infamous meeting at Berry's house. the subsequent dates are below. so there wasn't much time to sit and contemplate things:

5/7 - Ed sullivan
5/11 - 24 Copa
5/21 What's My Line
5/22 Tonight Show
5/26 Armory Fieldhouse, Cincinnati
5/27 The Bruce Morrow Show NYC
5/29 Minneapolis Auditorium
5/30 Duluth Arena
6/1 - 10 Shoreham Hotel, DC
6/11 Symphony Hall, Newark NJ
6/13 - 26 Coconut Grove LA
6/29 - 7/19 Flamingo Hotel

As with pretty much every story about the group, there might be some revisions being done regarding this Berry meeting. it doesn't sound like it was a meeting like what we've heard about David Ruffin. maybe it was like "look i think your time as a Supremes is about over Flo, it's not working any more. We have a replacement ready for our next gig - Hollywood Bowl. but it's just that one. let's see if we can either really work things out or end it"

[RanRan79]

They are few and far between but there are some moments where each Andante stands out. They all have speaking parts in Barbara McNair's version of "Fancy Passes."
Marlene: "That man is rare, Miss McNair."
Louvain: "Did he buy you a mink?"
Jackie: "And a caddy too?"
Marlene: "You're speaking of?"
Jackie: "Your Romeo?"

Louvain was the first soprano and belted out the high notes. She sings the solo intro on The Originals' "The Exodus Song" from 1972. You can pick her out belting the high note at the end of the Supremes' "MacArthur Park," doing the high "ahh" in "Love Child" and "Bernadette."

Marlene was a mezzo soprano and had a timbre that was a cross between Mary and Florence. She had a solo singing the intro to P.J.'s "T.L.C." from 1971. If you listen to "Sadie, Sadie" from the Supremes Funny Girl album, she's the prominent voice saying "I think she just got married." At the very beginning of the Supremes version of "Slow Down," she's singing the high "Slow down" and "how could she love him?" Of course, she's the soprano singing with Mary on "You Can't Hurry Love," "Reflections," "Sincerely." And the top part of "Mister Sandman." I always felt her and Mary sounded great together, a very nice blend into one unified sound/voice. I can see why Motown was considering her for Flo's replacement.

Jackie was the contralto, bottom voice of the group. Her voice was most distinctive. Very hard to describe it, but a very throaty sound. Some have said that sometimes the Andantes sounded like they were singing with marshmallows in their mouths, I think it was Jackie's voice that made it that way sometimes. - There is a moment in Soupy Sales' "MuckArty Park" after the instrumental break where she sings "ahh's" by herself. On the Marvelettes' "Someday We'll Be Together," she's the deep voice who holds the "together" for a bit longer than the others at the intro.

Thank you Brad! And I love that you mention the "marshmallows" thing. I've never heard that, but it's an accurate description of what I have never been able to eloquently describe about some of the Andantes vocals, particularly in the late 60s.

[ejluther]

Does anyone know if The Andantes were instructed to try and sound like Mary and Flo? If this was addressed elsewhere, my apologies…

[RanRan79]

Does anyone know if The Andantes were instructed to try and sound like Mary and Flo?

I've not heard anything about how the Andantes approached this.

Some songs, like "Any Girl In Love", already had Andantes vocals on them when Diana recorded her lead. Some others may have also been done this way. But I'm not sure if there was any straight direction from anyone for the Andantes to sound specifically like Flo and Mary, as most of the stuff they cut either ended up as an album cut or vaulted, and we know that it seems no one at Motown took any real care in choosing album cuts, except for the specialty albums.

I think of the big three female groups at Motown, the A's had the best ability to mask themselves as Flo and Mary as I think the ladies in the group had similar voices to Flo and Mary. On the other hand, I find it's much more easier to distinguish the A's from the Vandellas [[Annette, Roz and Betty) and especially distinguish them from the Marvelettes. I think the only time I got fooled by the A's as Vandellas was "I'm Ready For Love".

[midnightman]

So does anyone know if Diana Ross ever stood up for the integrity of the group's recordings and attempted to object to the use of the Andantes in place of MF/C on their recordings?

Or was she indifferent as to who was on background so long as she kept on singing lead on nearly all the recordings?

Or any evidence she advocated for the use of the Andantes in place of MF/C for whatever reasons?

Honestly, I don't think any of them did. The schedules were way too tight for DMF to complain.

[midnightman]

Very interesting thread!

I’ve also always sworn I could hear Flo on “Santa Clause is Coming to Town,” even with the knowledge that they did not provide background vocals.

That being said, I’m not convinced Flo is singing on “I Hear a Symphony” [[the song). Especially after listening to the alternate extended mix on the IHAS Expanded album, it sounds like Mary and possibly Marlene.

What I find interesting is, in my view, I think Motown took a little more effort in the early years to make the Andantes’ presence on Supremes records a little more subtle. Meaning that they were added to add body to the sound, but Mary and Flo were still driving the background. Then once the Supremes started going out on the road more and more focus was put on Diana, it seemed less of a priority to preserve the original DMF blend.

Flo was on IHAS but a "third voice" was added with Flo and Mary. Likely one Andante. The same could said of YCHL, which did have Marlene in it. But the debate still rages if Flo was ever on that session. I think she was.