Would they still have used the Andantes if Flo stayed?

[sup_fan]

Mary is on those sessions where Flo was MIA - YCHL, Sincerely, etc.

as for things like Christmas and all, M and F just weren't scheduled to be in the studio. sure they might have been at Hitsville hanging out or whatever but there was a specific schedule as to what producers would be in what studio and who needed to be in there with them. it might be that they were only recording horns and strings for some track. or a whole slew of backing vocals. or they had a lead singer in town and 5 different producers were scheduled to record 9 different tunes with that 1 singer.

if M and F were in City X performing as The Supremes, they wouldn't even know what the latest albums/songs being planned for them would be. sometimes a producer might get the OK to spend the money on a ticket and fly to wherever a group was appearing and rent studio time/space locally. maybe Deke or Frank or Eddie would fly to NYC and have Diana join them for part of a day and knock out lead vocals for 7 tunes. and maybe they would also schedule time for the backing vocals too. or maybe those were already recorded. perhaps that track was actually originally assigned to the sups but maybe the producer was also thinking MRATV or maybe Kim Weston could do it. still TBD to some degree - so he goes ahead and has the As do the backing vocals because then all he needs is some lead to do the track. be it Diana Martha or Kim. then he can finish mixing the tune and present it to the QC meeting.

we all take this a bit more personal than i really think it was. this was more about Producer X hoping to get SOMETHING out on his name to make money. if he could get a superstar group like the Sups assigned to it, GREAT!! but MRATV, Brenda Holloway, the Spinners, the Tops, Tammi, etc - anyone and everyone just might get a hit. So it was about getting product out

[Boogiedown]

I would argue that you're making thin excuses for the inexcusable. The MOST IMPORTANT thing about a Supremes record is that it actually be the Supremes . Whatever it takes.

Or else just label the records: "Diana Ross and the Whoevers"

[sup_fan]

but you're looking at this from 2023. in 1965 no one anticipated that 50 years later people would care or want alt mixes or anything. no one anticipated that there would be a legacy with this music. people still thought that rock and roll was a "fad." Tons of artists had a hit or two and then into total obscurity.

look back at what the parents of the youth in 64 listened to - big bands. and their parents - ragtime or the jitterbug lol. or look at the artists that were huge pre-British invasion and where they were in 65.

this wasn't about artistic integrity, or creating music for the ages. what if a whole new musical genre emerged the next year and now motown was totally on the outs? and if they had waited a month or two just for M and F to be back in town to do a recording session, and what could have been a hit was now a bust?

no one thought this would last nearly as long as it did. even in the 70s when Cindy signed away her royalties, she was barely making anything anyway so what was there to lose? who would have anticipated the whole Big Chill phenomenon?

Hitsville was a 24/7 operation. every hour was being utilized to record and produce records for IMMEDIATE release. get the money today because who knows what tomorrow will bring. and so don't waste hours trying to coordinate for M and F to be free to record.

[Boogiedown]

with all due respect sup, integrity and honesty have nothing to do with how ones actions are perceived 50 years later. And I'm pretty sure those concepts are not recently born of these current months....

Can you name any other recording artists outside the Motown walls being this deceiving?*

If you name the Monkees ......well there you go !



* I know there were some Phil Spector shenanigans .....did he ever put any of his artists on TV pretending to be singing songs they weren't involved in ?? [Gary?]

[sup_fan]

i think nearly all girl groups had shenanigans going on. if you went into the Brill Building, they probably had infinite number of people singing on the Dixie Cups, the Shangri Las and every other group.

so i don't think it's an issue of integrity and honesty as much as chauvinism. R&R was a "man's world" and men dominated things. woman [[even today) are sorely under represented and back then it was hugely dismissive towards them. rock historians have long ignored the Girl Group Genre and phenomenon of the early 60s. this was the time when women often went to college simply for an M-R-S degree, were mostly teachers, nurses and librarians. stewardesses had to automatically resign when they married and would be fire for being above a set weight limit.

motown was acting no different than any other label. and actually, motown approached things in an almost revolutionary manner - berry was determined that he 'top star' would be a woman because he felt white audiences would relate more to a black female singer than a male. he zeroed in on Diana and as a result motown broke the mold for girl groups. no one group had the individualized attention on each member that MDF did. and yes, we've discussed a zillion times how M and F were disregarded. but what other female album cover in 1965 had an individual, autographed photo for each member?

so was what motown did 'right?' no. they misrepresented the singers that were on the record and sold us things that supposedly had DMF on it but only had D. but what about the records where DMF were on there but others were added? the A's on Lovelight, the A's and 10,000 others on Run, supposedly Marlene on Symphony along with DMF, Flo skipping sessions for YCHL, etc. Should they have adjusted the label for each one?

YCHL is my all time favorite song. by any artist of any time. yes i'm hugely disappointed that it's not DMF but actually DMM. but Flo was the one singing and dancing to the tune on Ed Sullivan for one of their most iconic performances. it was the sensational trio of DMF that made all of america love them in 1964 which lead to the amazing chart successes later like YCHL, LC, Reflections, Someday, etc that were unfortunately, in hindsight, not what they were assumed to be. if i had a magic wand and could go back and change things, i would. but to be honest, if that time machine existed, i would probably go back and focus on changing OTHER aspects of the Sups history. IMO the swapping of vocals isn't great but isn't the biggest problem with their history.

[Boogiedown]

sup_fan:
IMO the swapping of vocals isn't great but isn't the biggest problem with their history.

I can't imagine a bigger problem than being fakes. Do tell!!

Also I realize that there are artistic measures that are created in the studio in order to get that perfect result. As soon as you splice two vocal parts from two different takes to make it one ....that performance becomes "faked".
Also doubling up on an artist's voice was really common. Barry White wouldn't have his sound if he didn't sing over himself multiple times. Marvin Gaye. Barry Manilow. The Carpenters.
And adding back-up singers ?? Of course. As long as they are back-up singers and not instead-of singers.

I'm not arguing creativity to get a desired creative result. I love hearing the term "overproduced". It's meant to be a dig, but for me it means a lot of effort was put into the project.


Otherwise we would just get everyone in the room at the same time, singers and musicians, perform it once and record it ...and whatever the results: "that's it!!" ... the most real and pure performance possible.

Too bad the tambourine guy dropped his tambourine midway into it though.

[sup_fan]

I can't imagine a bigger problem than being fakes. Do tell!!

how about Flo going onto a Vegas stage drunk?

if we're talking fantasy and using a time machine, i would focus on something that could REALLY change their lives. like maybe Flo NOT leaving the group and motown and dying destitute

[sup_fan]

I can't imagine a bigger problem than being fakes. Do tell!!

Also I realize that there are artistic measures that are created in the studio in order to get that perfect result. As soon as you splice two vocal parts from two different takes to make it one ....that performance becomes "faked".
Also doubling up on an artist's voice was really common. Barry White wouldn't have his sound if he didn't sing over himself multiple times. Marvin Gaye. Barry Manilow. The Carpenters.
And adding back-up singers ?? Of course. As long as they are back-up singers and not instead-of singers.

I'm not arguing creativity to get a desired creative result. I love hearing the term "overproduced". It's meant to be a dig, but for me it means a lot of effort was put into the project.


Otherwise we would just get everyone in the room at the same time, singers and musicians, perform it once and record it ...and whatever the results: "that's it!!" ... the most real and pure performance possible.

Too bad the tambourine guy dropped his tambourine midway into it though.

you bring up an excellent point and one that i think the girls mentioned to fans and people. the magic of a studio is not something you can replicate live. i thought someone said that Cindy said it was so hard to make any attempt to do SL of NJ live because there was no way it would sound like the recording. manipulating the vocals with a synthesizer, layered vocal tracks, doubling of voices.

[captainjames]

[reese]

* I know there were some Phil Spector shenanigans .....did he ever put any of his artists on TV pretending to be singing songs they weren't involved in ?? [Gary?]

The Crystals appearing on SHIVAREE, lipsyncing their hit HE'S A REBEL, which was actually recorded by Darlene Love and the Blossoms.

[lucky2012]

The Crystals appearing on SHIVAREE, lipsyncing their hit HE'S A REBEL, which was actually recorded by Darlene Love and the Blossoms.

Thanks, reese. I remember seeing this as a kid. I was glad to finally see the Crystals, not knowing until years [decades!] later about Phil Spector's shenanigans. There's at least one other clip from a teen show with the Crystals lip-syncing to He's a Rebel. Even as a kid, I admired The Blossoms on Shindig, very impressed with their talent. He's a Rebel remains my favorite Darlene Love vocal. [I hear Christmas[Baby Please Come Home] too much this time of year, like Mariah Carey's All I Want for Christmas is You, which is even more exhausting].

[marybrewster]

with all due respect sup, integrity and honesty have nothing to do with how ones actions are perceived 50 years later. And I'm pretty sure those concepts are not recently born of these current months....

Can you name any other recording artists outside the Motown walls being this deceiving?*

If you name the Monkees ......well there you go !



* I know there were some Phil Spector shenanigans .....did he ever put any of his artists on TV pretending to be singing songs they weren't involved in ?? [Gary?]

The Crystal's "He's A Rebel" comes to mind. I've seen footage of LaLa singing lead, when indeed it's Darlene.

[captainjames]

To answer the original question on whether the Andantes would have been used and the answer is yes or someone else would have been in the background. I understand what Motown was doing but this the perfect opportunity to share what Cindy and Mary sounded like in the background.The fans didn't exactly get that. As Mary said she cashed every one of those checks and I get it and I always said thats Mary knowing it wasn't.

[Boogiedown]

exactly. whether its 1968 or 1988 or 2028 .... a scam's a scam.

[lakeside]

I found that when it became pretty much common knowledge that everyone that passed through Detroit may have been on the Supremes recordings....I became disenchanted as I always loved the background singers and thought I was hearing Mary and Flo or Mary and Cindy. I still listen, but the enthusiasm isn't there anymore. I 'get' what they were doing in filling out the sound and all that, but I'd have preferred just the 3 of them and leave it at that.

[TheMotownManiac]

Flo's voice definitely underwent some changes. Whether it was "damage" or not, I guess at this point no one knows. But she, like the other Supremes, had apparently been smoking for years, so it may have very likely had some effect. During 66/67 she was also under a ton of stress, naturally and unnaturally job related, and stress does affect the voice. During her famous Supremes years Flo was in her early 20s, a time when female voices are still changing, so she may have undergone a natural change that might also have been compounded by the previous factors. Not to mention my belief that Florence wasn't a natural soprano and may have done some damage by singing so often in the upper register of her voice.

I don't buy that Flo was phoning it in during this time. There are definitely tracks from the A Go Go sessions on up that sometimes sound like both Flo and Mary are phoning it in, but since it was both of them, I suspect that was more a producer issue. Flo and Mary are tearing up "Hangin On", "Love Is Here", many of those Rodgers and Hart cuts, among others, and it's clear that Florence's voice doesn't sound like it did on "Stranger In Paradise" or "Come See About Me". She still sounds great, like on "Manhattan", "Bewitched", "It's Going All the Way", but it's not as high as it once was, which of course doesn't make it any less good, just different. IMO the boom of her voice was still there, the height had just decreased, if that makes any sense.

I agree about Flo’s voice, but diana‘s voice suffered 10 times that. She is so hoarse on Copa 67 and what’s my line? I’m shocked that they even recorded an album. As long as he was getting his 35%, Gordy didn’t seem to care what was happening with the group. The only time he showed any interest in their health at all was when Diana passed out on stage at Binst‘s or lost an emotionally at the Latin casino.

[TheMotownManiac]

Motown was a factory and it put out product for purchase. They didn’t care about details as long as the record sold. They didn’t care if it wasn’t Tammi Terrell, they didn’t care if it wasn’t Martha Reeves and I certainly didn’t care who was singing background in anything. The only reason they didn’t do it with The Temptations was because they had three lead singers and a very identifiable sound. I never heard about anyone putting their foot down, but Harley Fuqua stated he did not want to work with Mary and Florence after experiencing their less than stellar work ethic before the Copa.

everybody has their own standard for this, I don’t care who it is as long as I like the sound. I don’t care if it’s not, Tammi, Terrell I wish it was, because she sounds better than Valerie, and I wish it were Martha because she sounds better than Sarita, but I still like I can’t dance very much and I don’t let it spoil it for me.

I don’t believe that love child, or someday would have sold as well with Mary and Cindy. I am Florence, Ballard‘s number one fan, but I don’t think, as much as I love her sound on come see about me and back of my arms again, that her appearance and wonderful sound actually resulted in more sales.
Phil Spector sent the Ronettes out on tour with a fake Ronnie Spector for heavens sake.
I know that a lot of people are disappointed to the point of losing their respect, or enjoyment for certain records, and that really sucks.

[floyjoy678]

I agree about Flo’s voice, but diana‘s voice suffered 10 times that. She is so hoarse on Copa 67 and what’s my line? I’m shocked that they even recorded an album. As long as he was getting his 35%, Gordy didn’t seem to care what was happening with the group. The only time he showed any interest in their health at all was when Diana passed out on stage at Binst‘s or lost an emotionally at the Latin casino.

And from what I recall, Berry kept asking Flo how bad was it when Diana passed out in Boston and Flo pretty much had to convince him Diana couldn't go back out on stage. If this all happened today, Berry would have been canceled in no time.

[TheMotownManiac]

Can you imagine having to ask how bad it was when he knew she was having health issues already? I do believe he loved her, but I don’t know if he loved the income she generated more or not.

I understand that folks are upset that the Andantes were used, leads weren’t shared, all kinds of things to be unhappy about. And depending on your perspective, rightly so. To me, the abuse she suffered at the hands of Mr. Gordy is the worst, or certainly equal to the worst, thing that happened to anyone in the group. How do you treat someone like that who will walk-through FIRE for you?

[Ollie9]

Can you imagine having to ask how bad it was when he knew she was having health issues already? I do believe he loved her, but I don’t know if he loved the income she generated more or not.

I understand that folks are upset that the Andantes were used, leads weren’t shared, all kinds of things to be unhappy about. And depending on your perspective, rightly so. To me, the abuse she suffered at the hands of Mr. Gordy is the worst, are certainly equal to the worst, thing that happened to anyone in the group. How do you treat someone like that who will walk-through FIRE for you?

Diana was always being told by BG that she had the talent to do anything. As such he often pushed her way beyond what might be deemed as kind or considerate.
Flo was constantly told she was fat or could leave the group anytime making her insecure and defensive. Mary was told she couldn’t sing which destroyed the confidence she had in her voice.
It would seem all three women suffered in different ways.

[Boogiedown]

when one's asking how 'bad it was' .....it could be out of their honest concern couldn't it??

Sup , I don't think Flo being drunk ranks up there with the offense of being an artificial group. That's an isolated incident that can be corrected and also was only in front of hundreds pf people.....as opposed to misleading an entire fan base. Maybe Flo was trying to exercise some degree of control [giving them the finger] to the situation that she saw as being pulled out from under her. Trying to cope too. And lots of performers made it a practice to have a nip of gin .... or two ....

The fakery went on repeatedly.... intentionally.
It just isn't acceptable since that was their whole gig : their being this singing trio.... that's who they were, their identity [supposedly].

[bradsupremes]

Can you imagine having to ask how bad it was when he knew she was having health issues already? I do believe he loved her, but I don’t know if he loved the income she generated more or not.

I understand that folks are upset that the Andantes were used, leads weren’t shared, all kinds of things to be unhappy about. And depending on your perspective, rightly so. To me, the abuse she suffered at the hands of Mr. Gordy is the worst, are certainly equal to the worst, thing that happened to anyone in the group. How do you treat someone like that who will walk-through FIRE for you?

The abuse she suffered was the worst of anyone in the group? That's a real stretch. If she felt that way she wouldn't have kept him in her life all these years. She would kept him at arms distance like she did Mary. Was he difficult on her? Of course, there's no denying that. But I think a man who purposely tries to tear down a woman's confidence, making her feel insignificant, that she's less than and heightening her insecurities which leads her to self-destruct through drinking [[and not get her help for it!) is real abuse. And then screwing her over by not allowing her to use the name she picked for the group and giving her a pitiful payout when she should have taken home much more.

Gordy was hard on Diana, but he was cruel to Florence. They are not the same.

[Ollie9]

The abuse she suffered was the worst of anyone in the group? That's a real stretch. If she felt that way she wouldn't have kept him in her life all these years. She would kept him at arms distance like she did Mary. Was he difficult on her? Of course, there's no denying that. But I think a man who purposely tries to tear down a woman's confidence, making her feel insignificant, that she's less than and heightening her insecurities which leads her to self-destruct through drinking [[and not get her help for it!) is real abuse. And then screwing her over by not allowing her to use the name she picked for the group and giving her a pitiful payout when she should have taken home much more.

Gordy was hard on Diana, but he was cruel to Florence. They are not the same.

Also destroying Mary’s confidence by telling her she couldn’t sing.
This Diana suffered the most nonsense really is to much.

[TheMotownManiac]

Diana was always being told by BG that she had the talent to do anything. As such he often pushed her way beyond what might be deemed as kind or considerate.
Flo was constantly told she was fat or could leave the group anytime making her insecure and defensive. Mary was told she couldn’t sing which destroyed the confidence she had in her voice.
It would seem all three women suffered in different ways.

That behavior that might be deemed beyond kind or considerate drove diana ross to anorexia nervosa. And I consider that to be equal or worse than what the other two went through, although I’m not making light of any of it certainly. Ross was constantly being told the entire company’s fortunes rested on her shoulders, that’s a lot of responsibility to heat on 110 pound shoulders. Gil told Randy T, how Gordy, abused her at Copa rehearsals. Even Mary, in a 1981 interview, referred to Berry’s behavior towards Diana as abuse. I’m not making light of what the others went through, but people have a tendency to make light of what Diana went through, it was a lot.


my very own Florence, Ballard, that I still miss in the group this very day, was not constantly told she was fat, she was told she was fat when she was getting fat started in the spring of 1966. You can see her grow in the TV clips From love is like an itching to Andy Williams. She put on too much weight and it was going in the wrong direction and needed to be stopped. He may have been a jerk about how he did it, but that trend had to be reversed. Ditto telling Florence that she could leave the group anytime. It was heartbreaking for Florence to hear that, but that began in late summer of 66 when all the trouble was brewing. I’m not sticking up for Gordy, I think he handled her all wrong, but if it came down to one group member, having to go, common sense would dictate it was not going to be the lead singer. She should never have thrown that drink in his face. Maybe he had it coming, he probably did, but you don’t do that to your boss without expecting ramifications. That would happen in any boss/employee situation. And her alcohol imbibery did not help the situation.

Personally, I don’t believe that he told Mary that she flat out could not sing, everyone knew she could. Even he knew she could. He knew because she sang people every night for over a year destroyed confidence. I’m sorry, but I think she laid that on a little thick. Later she had can’t take my eyes off of you and falling in love with love, she had the confidence to sing those. I do believe that Gordy told her she could not sing the way he wanted for the group, but he knew that she pleased audiences with her voice prior to the edict, so he would not suggest that didn’t ever happen.

my original comment was not too lessenThe severity of what Mary and Florence went through, merely to attract attention to what I feel was not being acknowledged.

[RanRan79]

Diana Ross was not anorexic. She has said she was stressed to the point that she did not have an appetite. She was disinterested in food. That is not Anorexia. Anorexia is the fear of gaining weight. If Diana ever feared getting fat, she has not, that I'm aware of, ever stated that publicly, nor has anyone who knew her at the time. I've also never heard Diana say that she was constantly being told that she was carrying Motown.

There is no doubt that Diana Ross was super stressed. She had a lot on her plate. But so did the other two Supremes. Berry did not always treat Diana the way she should have been treated. And yes, there were times that he was cruel. I think Diana said so herself. But the difference between Diana's stress and Flo and Mary's stress was that Diana had someone in her corner. Granted, it was the same person who probably stressed her out the most, but there is no denying that Diana had perks that nobody at Motown could dream of having because of Berry Gordy. And while I'll allow the argument that Flo and Mary got perks that most at the company probably couldn't dream of having, most at the company also didn't have to put up with what Flo and Mary had to put up with.

The Supremes were the second or third biggest force in the music world at the time. Certainly the biggest American group. With that position came a lot of stress, naturally. Diana lost her appetite. Perhaps Flo's appetite increased. People cope with stress in different ways. But where Gordy was on Diana to be the best she could, pushing her to her limits to achieve their shared goals, Flo in particular was berated and castigated. Where Diana had the added fun of being prepared for the thing she wanted most in life [[to be a single success), Flo was being pushed down and shoved aside. I'm sorry, there is no comparison there.

[floyjoy678]

I agree Brad and Ran. I really don't understand what Berry's beef was with Flo. Was he really that intimidated by her? That she could overshadow Diana? Because it seems like he started in on her even before she was gaining weight, drinking too much and missing shows and sessions.

[RanRan79]

I agree Brad and Ran. I really don't understand what Berry's beef was with Flo. Was he really that intimidated by her? That she could overshadow Diana? Because it seems like he started in on her even before she was gaining weight, drinking too much and missing shows and sessions.

I don't believe the trouble really started until sometime well into 1966. By then it was becoming increasingly clear that the goal was to begin to really push Diana up and Flo and Mary to the back. Mind you, they were still structured and promoted as a "normal" singing group pretty much up until Florence left. However, it was the behind the scenes stuff that started pissing Florence off. Thus Gordy's problem with her was on account of her problem with him.

Gordy wanted his female artists to do what they were told, no questions asked. I think all three Supremes were initially okay with that because Gordy really wasn't asking anything of them that they didn't really want to do, with perhaps a couple of exceptions, which is understandable as no one is going to agree on everything all of the time. But when the group is being asked to lift Diana up while Flo and Mary shrink, Flo wasn't having it.

Lashing out did Flo no favors where Gordy was concerned. And when it became glaringly obvious that Flo was no longer going to pull any punches with him, that was it. Did Gordy have a legitimate gripe with Florence? Absolutely. There was a way for Flo to handle her grievances, and her sometimes volatile personality wasn't it. Missing recording sessions, missing a show, getting drunk, Gordy saw these things as liabilities, and they were. And Gordy was not interested in anyone who might derail his plans. The truth is that he did give Flo a lot of rope, and I imagine that had everything to do with understanding how popular she was, as well as understanding how important she was to the group's entire presence. He gave her the rope and she hung herself.

The reality is that all of that could have been avoided had Gordy recognized the importance of making sure everyone in the group felt important and felt that they had a champion in him. I remember reading somewhere that a Motown insider said Flo and Mary should have done everything in their power to make sure Diana Ross was happy. You can't see me, but I'm rolling my eyes. In truth, Gordy should have done everything in his power to make Florence and Mary happy, understanding that if he truly wanted to make Operation Make Diana Ross A Solo Star successful, keeping any mutiny at bay was of the utmost importance.

I do not believe he was worried about Flo overshadowing Diana. Diana was the extra something that made the Supremes a force. There wasn't anybody who could do what Diana did. Not that Flo didn't have her own special thing, or Mary, or any of the other ladies at Motown or outside of Motown. They all had their own "it" factor. Diana's unique talent wasn't in any danger of being overshadowed by anyone and I think Gordy recognized that by the time he started setting in motion "Operation Diana Ross Solo Star" in 1966. The one threat Flo had was that she could have potentially derailed the entire group. Gordy got rid of her before she could do it.

[RanRan79]

Piggybacking off the talent issue, Gordy obviously felt Florence was talented enough as a singer that he was willing to extend Florence's contract as a solo. Not that anyone with a brain, or half a brain, believes that he intended to do anything with her had she decided to remain with the label. But he also knew she was talented enough to go somewhere else and get signed, which of course she did. If he could have held on to her, without allowing her to continue as a Supreme, he would if it meant there was no chance that any former Supreme was going to have a hit record before Diana. Had Flo left the group, gone to ABC, or any other label, and actually begun a hit making career...ouch! That's the last thing Gordy wanted. Now did he do any behind the scenes shenanigans to disrupt whatever Flo had going on? Nobody knows, but I wouldn't bet against it. Business gets personal all the time. Of course, he didn't need to do much, as Flo and Tommy were bungling the job in many ways on their own.

[sup_fan]

i think by the time the girls exploded at the Copa, berry knew 'this is our ticket to riches.' he had 1 goal that was but to make a lot of money by having a superstar singer. 1 singer is easier to deal with than a group so there would have probably always been some eventual plan to lift DR out of the group.

what berry had 0 patience for was anything impeding this goal. lazy work ethics, lack of drive and motivation, partying too much, drinking, getting sloppy with appearances, spending too much time chasing after Tom Jones, etc, etc.

Berry wanted to get from Point A to Point B and that plan perfectly mirrored Diana's self desire. M and F were essential for the plan in the opening phases. i think a DR solo act in early 64 through mid 66 would have been hard to handle. the 3 together created the magic of the supremes and created the environment for diane earle ross to become MISS DIANA ROSS. that took time, it was like an incubator. but eventually that incubator wasn't as necessary. in terms of them going from Point A to Point B, as mentioned above.

of course there could have potentially been other Point B's they could have considered, ones that could have still included or had plans for M and F. but Berry was pretty singleminded.

[jobeterob]

Seems to me it’s completely irrelevant who was used on the backgrounds

[RanRan79]

Seems to me it’s completely irrelevant who was used on the backgrounds

In a conversation about a musical group? Why wouldn't it be relevant?

[floyjoy678]

Seems to me it’s completely irrelevant who was used on the backgrounds

Rob there's no Supremes song where you enjoyed Mary and Florence's background vocals?

Come See About Me is probably my all time favorite song ever by any music artist. And one of the things I love about the song is Florence [[and Mary) in the background.

[captainjames]

To echo a bit of what Rob is saying and with no disrespect but actually I never knew Mary, Flo and Cindy were not on those records until it was exposed I believe in the late seventies. I can even remember when there was talk of how Flo was "singing her butt off" on "You Keep Me Hanging On" but in reality I think it was later discovered that its Diana on Top of Diana singing. To be honest I think I was better off not knowing that Mary, Cindy and Flo were not on those records. I have to be honest that I may have known Mary and Cindy were not on "Love Child" but I would have punched someone out if someone told me to my face.

[floyjoy678]

There were songs I always suspected were not Mary, Flo and Cindy. Love Child was definitely one of them as they sounded so weak live compared to the strong vocals on the recording.

Then I started suspecting the Andantes were on Stop years before it ever came out and Louvain confirmed that for me but she only really said they helped out and I got the impression it was only her and Jackie with Mary and Florence with the way she worded it.

[RanRan79]

To echo a bit of what Rob is saying and with no disrespect but actually I never knew Mary, Flo and Cindy were not on those records until it was exposed I believe in the late seventies. I can even remember when there was talk of how Flo was "singing her butt off" on "You Keep Me Hanging On" but in reality I think it was later discovered that its Diana on Top of Diana singing. To be honest I think I was better off not knowing that Mary, Cindy and Flo were not on those records. I have to be honest that I may have known Mary and Cindy were not on "Love Child" but I would have punched someone out if someone told me to my face.

The general public had no reason to believe it was anyone but the folks credited on the song. Maybe there were a few diehard fans who were able to pick up on it, but I've considered myself a diehard for the last 30 years and as recent as this year I've discovered [[or had it pointed out to me) two songs, an album cut and a shelved cut, that Flo isn't on that I always assumed was her. When it was pointed out to me, it was one of those moments where I slap my forehead because as I really pay attention to it, of course that's not Flo. Now if I, as Flo's biggest fan, can still occasionally be fooled when I'm well aware of the behind the scenes history of the group, I can't imagine many people in the 60s would have ever had a reason to question who was singing on the records and albums. If the name said Supremes, who would have thought it was ever anyone else?

I think we can all agree that, recording wise, Motown as a unit mostly focused on whoever was leading the song. The label did not make it an absolute to always have the backing vocalists on group songs be that of the actual group members, particularly where the female groups were concerned. But it's interesting to me that none of those Supremes/Vandellas/Marvelettes singles or albums are credited to the Andantes, if it didn't matter. I don't have access to it at the moment, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't the Floy Joy album the first time the Andantes get an actual credit for their vocals on another female group's material? And that was 1972.

[reese]

But it's interesting to me that none of those Supremes/Vandellas/Marvelettes singles or albums are credited to the Andantes, if it didn't matter. I don't have access to it at the moment, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't the Floy Joy album the first time the Andantes get an actual credit for their vocals on another female group's material? And that was 1972.

On the back of the FLOY JOY album, the members of the Andantes are listed individually along with some of the musicians under a "Thanks To:" section. But unless someone knew the names Jackie Hicks or Earl Van Dyke, they wouldn't really know what their actual function was on the album was.

[jobeterob]

There were songs I always suspected were not Mary, Flo and Cindy. Love Child was definitely one of them as they sounded so weak live compared to the strong vocals on the recording.

Then I started suspecting the Andantes were on Stop years before it ever came out and Louvain confirmed that for me but she only really said they helped out and I got the impression it was only her and Jackie with Mary and Florence with the way she worded it.

You are much more discerning than I ever managed to be. Even on Someday We’ll Be Together, I thought Mary was singing the Johnny Bristol parts.

[jobeterob]

Rob there's no Supremes song where you enjoyed Mary and Florence's background vocals?

Come See About Me is probably my all time favorite song ever by any music artist. And one of the things I love about the song is Florence [[and Mary) in the background.

Oh there absolutely are - especially Manhattan, It’s All You Fault, Back in my Arms Again, You Keep Me Hangin On; I loved especially when Flo or Flo and Mary said against or in response to Diana in the early years

That full sound with everyone in the background of Stop is also very good

[RanRan79]

On the back of the FLOY JOY album, the members of the Andantes are listed individually along with some of the musicians under a "Thanks To:" section. But unless someone knew the names Jackie Hicks or Earl Van Dyke, they wouldn't really know what their actual function was on the album was.

Yes!! Starting the new year off with one of Reese's facts! Always a good sign that the year will head in a good direction.

[RanRan79]

Does anyone happen to know when the Andantes stopped recording? Or what their last musical work was?

[reese]

Does anyone happen to know when the Andantes stopped recording? Or what their last musical work was?

In their book, Marlene Barrow says that she believes the last sessions they did were on the 70s Supremes and some Diana solo recordings but she didn't name titles.

She said the date of January 16, 1973 was embedded in her brain. I gather that was when they finally knew it was over.

[blackguy69]

If I’m correct they did David Ruffin’s David album. I haven’t heard them doing anything beyond the FJ album. Also isn’t the majority of DR early 70’s albums either had the Blackberries or the Devastating Affair as background singers.

In their book, Marlene Barrow says that she believes the last sessions they did were on the 70s Supremes and some Diana solo recordings but she didn't name titles.

She said the date of January 16, 1973 was embedded in her brain. I gather that was when they finally knew it was over.

[TheMotownManiac]

when one's asking how 'bad it was' .....it could be out of their honest concern couldn't it??

Sup , I don't think Flo being drunk ranks up there with the offense of being an artificial group. That's an isolated incident that can be corrected and also was only in front of hundreds pf people.....as opposed to misleading an entire fan base. Maybe Flo was trying to exercise some degree of control [giving them the finger] to the situation that she saw as being pulled out from under her. Trying to cope too. And lots of performers made it a practice to have a nip of gin .... or two ....

The fakery went on repeatedly.... intentionally.
It just isn't acceptable since that was their whole gig : their being this singing trio.... that's who they were, their identity [supposedly].

and it’s all subjective. We all have different values and concerns and none are right or wrong. They’re just how we feel. If I had known back in the day that various people were being used rather than the group, I might’ve felt differently, and, although I sometimes questioned the sound, it just never dawned on me that they would be using other singers, and since I liked the music, it doesn’t bother me. However, I do wish mary and Florence were on the Christmas album because I preferred their sound to what was used. And for me , it’s all about the sound.
lots of people feel as you do. For years Marv2 would talk about how big The Supremes Christmas album was year after year and it was a staple in his neighborhood every year and everything. When he found out it was the A’s, he was completely completely dismissive of the entire project. It’s interesting that each of us has a different read on this topic.

[TheMotownManiac]

The abuse she suffered was the worst of anyone in the group? That's a real stretch. If she felt that way she wouldn't have kept him in her life all these years. She would kept him at arms distance like she did Mary. Was he difficult on her? Of course, there's no denying that. But I think a man who purposely tries to tear down a woman's confidence, making her feel insignificant, that she's less than and heightening her insecurities which leads her to self-destruct through drinking [[and not get her help for it!) is real abuse. And then screwing her over by not allowing her to use the name she picked for the group and giving her a pitiful payout when she should have taken home much more.

Gordy was hard on Diana, but he was cruel to Florence. They are not the same.

I don’t mean to say that the other two didn’t suffer, but Florence arrived Damaged goods, we all know that. And very few people got help back then, although MGM did send Judy to a sanitarium, she was not allowed to do what the doctors recommended. Perhaps if Florence had helped after the rape, she would’ve dealt with the situation better with the group and her dislike of flying. But she also had another issue in that she wasn’t a quick learner. And they often had to learn routines for television quickly. The Lord knows how much I loved Florence and how much I still do, but I could be objective also. She would get distracted or Maybe just forget that she was lip-synching on several television appearances. I think the hectic pace of the group was too much for her, that coupled with her unhappiness with the group direction, and the issues she brought out from outside the group, all led to her alcohol abuse. as I’ve stated many times, I wish they would’ve given her six months off to get herself together, and try to heal emotionally. But after she threw that drink in Gordy’s face, it was personal. I do not blame very Gordy, for the terrible exit package that Florence agreed to. She had bad legal advice, a bad attitude, and a new husband, who was completely incapable of giving her any kind of sound advice whatsoever. If she had half a brain, she would’ve demanded an audit of every nickel they were ever paid. Believe me, with the threat of an audit, Motown would’ve agreed to anything she wanted, because that was the absolute last thing they wanted. Can you imagine if all the artists found out that the Supremes were not being paid the right amount of money ? I blame that deal on poor Flo, Although it certainly isn’t her fault that she was naïve about things. It was just a rotten situation. But everyone was trying to do their best for themselves, and she got the short end of the stick.

as far as Gordy and Diana, yes, I do think her situation was as bad or worse. Just my opinion, but that is what I think. If Mary was too afraid to speak up for Florence for fear of losing her job, which I don’t believe, then, why not afford that same excuse to Diana? She was literally worked to the bone. She gave that crazy interview about leopards scratching her or whatever the hell that was. I’m not going to say what Diana should’ve done in any situation, I do believe she loved, and still does love Barry Gordy, that doesn’t mean she wasn’t abused. Mary said herself that diana was abused by Barry. Randy Terbi said the same thing. Even that crappy pulled on her shooting mahogany making her do retakes for no reason because he was the boss.

ultimately, it doesn’t matter who got it worse, they both got it bad.

[TheMotownManiac]

Diana Ross was not anorexic. She has said she was stressed to the point that she did not have an appetite. She was disinterested in food. That is not Anorexia. Anorexia is the fear of gaining weight. If Diana ever feared getting fat, she has not, that I'm aware of, ever stated that publicly, nor has anyone who knew her at the time. I've also never heard Diana say that she was constantly being told that she was carrying Motown.

There is no doubt that Diana Ross was super stressed. She had a lot on her plate. But so did the other two Supremes. Berry did not always treat Diana the way she should have been treated. And yes, there were times that he was cruel. I think Diana said so herself. But the difference between Diana's stress and Flo and Mary's stress was that Diana had someone in her corner. Granted, it was the same person who probably stressed her out the most, but there is no denying that Diana had perks that nobody at Motown could dream of having because of Berry Gordy. And while I'll allow the argument that Flo and Mary got perks that most at the company probably couldn't dream of having, most at the company also didn't have to put up with what Flo and Mary had to put up with.

The Supremes were the second or third biggest force in the music world at the time. Certainly the biggest American group. With that position came a lot of stress, naturally. Diana lost her appetite. Perhaps Flo's appetite increased. People cope with stress in different ways. But where Gordy was on Diana to be the best she could, pushing her to her limits to achieve their shared goals, Flo in particular was berated and castigated. Where Diana had the added fun of being prepared for the thing she wanted most in life [[to be a single success), Flo was being pushed down and shoved aside. I'm sorry, there is no comparison there.

you’re right about anorexia, but Diana was more than just stressed or lacking an appetite. She was under 100 pounds. She was unhealthy. You can see it. There’s a couple of periods where she was downright scary looking she was so thin. And I agree with you that her success was so great that it’s probably what she lived on and what kept her going. But I believe Gordie played mind games on her, and she was vulnerable enough to fall victim to them. There’s no way he was gonna let the goose that laid the golden egg get away from him twice, he learned his Mary Wells lesson very well.

[Ollie9]

you’re right about anorexia, but Diana was more than just stressed or lacking an appetite. She was under 100 pounds. She was unhealthy. You can see it. There’s a couple of periods where she was downright scary looking she was so thin. And I agree with you that her success was so great that it’s probably what she lived on and what kept her going. But I believe Gordie played mind games on her, and she was vulnerable enough to fall victim to them. There’s no way he was gonna let the goose that laid the golden egg get away from him twice, he learned his Mary Wells lesson very well.

Diana was always thin as is obvious to anyone who watches Mahogany. She was certainly overworked at certain points in time leading to her collapse. That is well documented and certainly a form of abuse.
On the other hand, to infer that she suffered more than the physical abuse handed out to Mary Wilson by her husband or the mental anguish suffered by Flo Ballard is being a little simplistic and rather insensitive.
If BG was so dreadfully abusive to Diana, why did she set out on a rather long sexual relationship that resulted in Rhonda. Even today it’s clear she adores the man.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I believe that Berry Gordy manipulated all three of the original Supremes in order to get the results he wanted. Diana suffered the least because she was his ticket to the big time in entertainment. They were personally involved with each other. It has been written that she was always seeking approval from her Father and that he favored another daughter, Barbara more. Once Gordy took on a "father figure" role in the company he favored Diana. I am sure that thrilled her beyond words to be singled out. He pushed her far too hard many times and surely could have been nicer and not overworked her to the point of collapse. Thing is both had that same goal of superstardom which bound them together no matter what.
Florence came from a big family and her singing was the big thing to her. She was always complimented for her big voice. His treatment of Florence was terrible and they seemed to have a written history of being antagonistic towards each other. Florence was opinionated and let it be known how she felt about things. Diana wrote that she was like the squeaky wheel that always wanted to be greased. If she was happy everyone was and if not, then everyone was unhappy. As Mary wrote she was close to her family and the tragedy of her attack made her wary of strangers. Gordy probably saw this and used it to his advantage to keep her in line in order to focus on Diana.
As Diana wrote Mary had tremendous inner strength. Yes, she was a "party girl" but she was also a hard worker. Mary was insecure having been "given" to an Aunt at a young age, she blended in and didn't say how she felt because she must have had abandonment issues. She even wrote she focused on her appearance in high school because even though she was "dumb" she was pretty. Mary had a wonderful voice but lacked confidence and Gordy saw that and exploited Mary's lack of confidence by telling her she couldn't sing. Then by the time Gordy had abandoned her and the Supremes in the 1970's, she clung to her new husband to have a center of strength and someone who believed in her. How he beat her and abused her was horrific, as she stated in her writings. It far surpassed how Gordy pushed Diana hard to achieve stardom. This was physical and mental abuse.
Gordy saw the three of them, and he saw their insecurities and used that to control them as employees and human beings. Diana was pushed unbelievably hard by him but they both had the same goal in mind to elevate her to a solo star. He tore down the self esteem of Florence and Mary, which caused each to react in a certain way-either fight for yourself and lose everything or be a survivor at all costs saying nothing for self preservation sake. And yes, the physical abuse Mary suffered can't even be compared to the relationship of Gordy and Ross. They are 2 far different things. Mary forgave her husband but Ross and Gordy are linked by their achievements and mutual admiration.

[midnightman]

The Andantes started to back every Motown act around 1962, including the Supremes. I think the Andantes were on parts of "Stop! In the Name of Love", clearly there is more loud background vocals when you get to the alternate ending and those "aaaah-aaaah-aaaahs" you hear when Diana goes into the bridge parts sound like them.

So yeah, the Andantes would've definitely been singing on more Supremes tunes had Flo stayed.

[blackguy69]

It’s already been stated that one on the versions of Stop that the Andantes augmented Mary and Flo’s vocals. One version just Mary and Flo. One version Mary, Flo and the Andantes

[jobeterob]

The Andantes started to back every Motown act around 1962, including the Supremes. I think the Andantes were on parts of "Stop! In the Name of Love", clearly there is more loud background vocals when you get to the alternate ending and those "aaaah-aaaah-aaaahs" you hear when Diana goes into the bridge parts sound like them.

So yeah, the Andantes would've definitely been singing on more Supremes tunes had Flo stayed.

The beginning to Stop sounds so full - I think the producers did a wonderful job loading it up with extra voices. For me, it’s very clear that there are voices on there besides or as well as M and F - I can’t tell tell who but it sure adds to the record

However it doesn’t take away from the incredible interplay of D with F on Manhattan - almost a duet and of all of them on NBH and YKMHO