DRATS Progression

[RanRan79]

Would anyone seriously have rushed to buy a song with cheesy lyrics such as “You Danced My Heart Around The Stars” during the early 80’s. Personally i think no.

Certainly not the crowd that bought the poignant "Upside down, boy you turn me inside out and round and round".

Sappy, melodramatic, cheesy ballads were all the rage at the time.

"Lady, I'm your knight in shining armor, and I love you. You have made me what I am, and I am yours..." so says one of the biggest hits of the 80s.

Yeah, surely "You danced my heart around the stars. Each day you carry me so far, beyond what any earthly dream can be..." was far too cheesy for the early 80s crew. Not.

[sup_fan]

Certainly not the crowd that bought the poignant "Upside down, boy you turn me inside out and round and round".

Sappy, melodramatic, cheesy ballads were all the rage at the time.

"Lady, I'm your knight in shining armor, and I love you. You have made me what I am, and I am yours..." so says one of the biggest hits of the 80s.

Yeah, surely "You danced my heart around the stars. Each day you carry me so far, beyond what any earthly dream can be..." was far too cheesy for the early 80s crew. Not.

i agree - i think Stars and Save Me sounded quite current in 1980. mega-cheese love ballads have pretty much ALWAYS been popular. lol the 80s certainly had their share. pretty much every song Air Supply sang and they were HUGE in the early 80s

[Ollie9]

Certainly not the crowd that bought the poignant "Upside down, boy you turn me inside out and round and round".

Sappy, melodramatic, cheesy ballads were all the rage at the time.

"Lady, I'm your knight in shining armor, and I love you. You have made me what I am, and I am yours..." so says one of the biggest hits of the 80s.

Yeah, surely "You danced my heart around the stars. Each day you carry me so far, beyond what any earthly dream can be..." was far too cheesy for the early 80s crew. Not.

Don’t agree.
“Upside Down” was simplistic as opposed to cheesy. This being an important difference.
“Lady was a little cheesy around the edges, but never as Mills & Boon sounding as ‘dancing someone’s heart around the stars’. It might have done well in 75 with a colossal amount of airplay, but is not something i would ever have purchased.

[sup_fan]

Upside Down is a totally different song. it's about the texture and sound. the simplistic lyric can be deceiving. it's very true that there are only a handful of notes in the melody line and nothing too challenging in terms of the words. but that doesn't mean it's an EASY song to sing and to deliver. the singer has to actually work to pull this song off by figuring out what to do with such simplicity. How many times have we heard this song sung at Karaoke or by friends in the car and it's ghastly. it's not like the song is "hard." and look at Beyonce at the Divas concert. frankly i think her performance failed too. she tried to soul it all up and it doesn't work

regarding Dance around the Stars, there are 10,000,000 ballads out there with over wrought lyrics and melodramatic tendencies. most "power ballads" utilize this. I don't see Dance as being any more of a culprit of this than pretty much any other. it's meant to be over the top.

Save Me tells a story that is compelling - two people meeting across the crowd, being attracted to each other but stuck at this event/party. and wanting to escape together. Mary's vocals are exciting, powerful. this is some of her best singing on a non-ballad song.

[marybrewster]

Dreamgirl was 1986
Call Her Miss Ross was 1989
Berry, Motown, and Me was 1990
All That Glittered was 1990
Deliver Us From Temptation was 1992
Confessions of a Motown Diva was 1994
To Be Loved was 1994
TEMPTATIONS was 1998

I think it's safe to say Mary kicked open the door for MANY of the Motown books that came after her.

[marybrewster]

And yes, Mommie Dearest, My Mother's Keeper, and Kitty Kelley's books on Jackie, Liz, Frank, and Nancy Reagan may have come out BEFORE Dreamgirl.....but those were biographies. Mary's autobiography was one of the first to spill all the tea from the inside.

[sup_fan]

And yes, Mommie Dearest, My Mother's Keeper, and Kitty Kelley's books on Jackie, Liz, Frank, and Nancy Reagan may have come out BEFORE Dreamgirl.....but those were biographies. Mary's autobiography was one of the first to spill all the tea from the inside.

what i was referring to was the more salacious approach to writing. this over the top approach seems to be something the evolved more in the later 70s and through the 80s.

Mommie Dearest was most certainly an autobiography as was My Mother's Keeper. both were written by the children about their lives with their moms. sure it's a different perspective and relationship. mother/child, star/family member versus being one of 1 singers in a group.

another interesting perspective is Randy's books versus Mary's book. Randy wrote a Diana bio around 84, then CHMR in 90 or so and then his updated Diana bio around early 00s. very different tones, data points, etc. the basic rationalization of why the 2nd and 3rd books are so different is randy attributes that to being in a different time, different environment, different data, etc.

mary republished her books at added an final section. but it doesn't appear she changed anything in her first two books. different time, different data, different place could apply here too.

[jobeterob]

Mary was made to spice up her book by the publisher

Randy was somewhat embarrassed by CHMR so fixed it all up in the update.

There were a couple items that stuck out to me in Randy’s books. He deleted all his sales information in his second book which made it seem his initial information was unreliable. And I suppose continuing sales could have turned the information erroneous.

He also said that “in the process, Mary Wilson lost Diana Ross forever”. I guess he may have been referring to M25 or just in general, but in the long run, the statement was accurate and the fans got nothing but a picture.

But most of these groups end up fighting and dislike each other; just the guys that use their upper heads and like money seem to get over it. Like Rollings Stones especially and maybe Destiny’s Child

[Ollie9]

I would far sooner a candid book from Diana than any concert announcements or new cd. Perhaps that milestone birthday next year will revive her interest.

[reese]

Dreamgirl was 1986
Call Her Miss Ross was 1989
Berry, Motown, and Me was 1990
All That Glittered was 1990
Deliver Us From Temptation was 1992
Confessions of a Motown Diva was 1994
To Be Loved was 1994
TEMPTATIONS was 1998

I think it's safe to say Mary kicked open the door for MANY of the Motown books that came after her.

I'm sure the success of Mary's first book made publishers eager to get on the Motown gravy train. But aside from CALL HER MISS ROSS, I don't know if any of the rest were particularly successful. I assume the Temptations book might have gotten renewed interest after their successful mini-series.

TEMPTATIONS was released in 1988.

Also, SMOKEY: INSIDE MY LIFE was released in 1989.

And of course, Mary's SUPREME FAITH in 1990.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I personally never found Dreamgirl to be anything like a "Diana Dearest". I think Mary's publisher's wanted to highlight the sensational but Mary wrote in terms as this was their 3 different personalities. Yes, they did love each other but there were different facets of each that bothered each other. It was understandable that Diana was laser focused on herself and making a career as a star. What she did may have caused problems for the other group members but Mary never wrote that it was malicious on Diana's part. Florence had the trauma of rape and this caused her to be distrustful. Flo ended up acting out when she saw Diana moved to the foreground and feeling she was being overlooked. This caused her pain. Mary admits she was a bit of a chicken and she held back how she felt because she was dealing with her own insecurities. I don't think Mary wrote opinions in Dreamgirl but more wrote about facts. I think her publishers wanted to focus on facts that were more sensational. I don't see the tone of Dreamgirl as malicious. I actually preferred Supreme Faith because it felt so much more a personal and human story relating to Mary's struggles with Motown, Berry, with the group and her private life.
The 1980's were certainly a different time with all of those books. Today, it is all online and nothing in these books would merit what we see everyday on Reddit,Tik Tok, Twitter[[or X) and Facebook. I think today people delve into much more personal information on enteratiners that Dreamgirl would look like nothing today.

[RanRan79]

I personally never found Dreamgirl to be anything like a "Diana Dearest". I think Mary's publisher's wanted to highlight the sensational but Mary wrote in terms as this was their 3 different personalities. Yes, they did love each other but there were different facets of each that bothered each other. It was understandable that Diana was laser focused on herself and making a career as a star. What she did may have caused problems for the other group members but Mary never wrote that it was malicious on Diana's part. Florence had the trauma of rape and this caused her to be distrustful. Flo ended up acting out when she saw Diana moved to the foreground and feeling she was being overlooked. This caused her pain. Mary admits she was a bit of a chicken and she held back how she felt because she was dealing with her own insecurities. I don't think Mary wrote opinions in Dreamgirl but more wrote about facts. I think her publishers wanted to focus on facts that were more sensational. I don't see the tone of Dreamgirl as malicious. I actually preferred Supreme Faith because it felt so much more a personal and human story relating to Mary's struggles with Motown, Berry, with the group and her private life.
The 1980's were certainly a different time with all of those books. Today, it is all online and nothing in these books would merit what we see everyday on Reddit,Tik Tok, Twitter[[or X) and Facebook. I think today people delve into much more personal information on enteratiners that Dreamgirl would look like nothing today.

I'm mostly inclined to agree here. While I don't think Mary's book is perfect, I do not read it with a "Diana Dearest" vibe, as you put it. While one could argue that some of what Mary wrote did imply that Diana was malicious at certain times, I think if you really pay attention, most, if not all of it, painted the picture of an insecure young lady, under a tremendous amount of pressure to succeed- to be the best, even- and she did things to further herself along, sometimes at the expense of others. She also lashed out at others, as people under pressure will sometimes do, and of course being in a group or entourage with the same people 24/7, those are the ones who get the bulk of the wrath.

With everything I've read about Diana Ross over the years, the more I realize Mary's first book could have been a HUGE hit piece on Diana, if that's truly where she was going. Mary apparently left out a ton of juicy details she could have used if she really wanted to make Diana look like the Wicked Witch of Detroit.

A lot is made of Mary's books, that it's one sided, etc. But whose POV was she supposed to use in writing her books, Diana's? And lets be real, if Diana had jumped on the "tell all" bandwagon with her book, no Rosser would bat an eye if Diana wrote about how Flo and Mary sometimes made her feel, the things they said to her face and behind her back, any of the ways she felt they may have tried to malign her trajectory. So I don't know why it was so bad for Mary to write about the same things as it related to her experience with Diana.

I will say there were times in the first book where it was clear Mary had been holding stuff in- insignificant stuff, IMO- and she tossed it in the book as digs at Diana. The story about Diana flirting with Mary's fiance; or the one about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home without offering to trade off with Mary, while Mary slept on the floor; Diana going off on Mary about eating too slowly, immediately come to mind. Yes, they paint a picture of someone who crossed lines or disregarded the feelings of others. But it was so long ago.

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

[sup_fan]

does anyone know what other hits or major artists Gus worked on? i know he did a lot but what else was he doing around the time he did those tracks with Mary? be interesting to speculate if some of those might have worked for mary to flesh out a full album

[jim aka jtigre99]

I will say there were times in the first book where it was clear Mary had been holding stuff in- insignificant stuff, IMO- and she tossed it in the book as digs at Diana. The story about Diana flirting with Mary's fiance; or the one about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home without offering to trade off with Mary, while Mary slept on the floor; Diana going off on Mary about eating too slowly, immediately come to mind. Yes, they paint a picture of someone who crossed lines or disregarded the feelings of others. But it was so long ago.

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

Yes, I agree in that I always wondered why so many people got so upset. Mary clearly left out anything truly damaging and some of the things she included were little things we all might get upset about with friends. Some of the things seemed rather petty and didn't paint either in a bad light.
I only wish Diana would have responded to Dreamgirl in that way. By not responding she caused some to feel she was even more difficult than presented in the book, while others felt that they must have been all lies and it would be beneath her dignity to reply. Diana shouldn't have dismissed Mary so easily. Had they spoke and perhaps talked things out the results would have been more positive. That kind of press release would have not only helped Diana's reputation but also did a little to heal the friendship of Diana and Mary. I really wish she had done something like that press release.

[reese]

does anyone know what other hits or major artists Gus worked on? i know he did a lot but what else was he doing around the time he did those tracks with Mary? be interesting to speculate if some of those might have worked for mary to flesh out a full album

He did a lot a work with Elton John[GOODBYE YELLOW BRICK ROAD] and David Bowie [SPACE ODDITY], amongst many others.

[reese]

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

You should go into PR, Ran Ran. This is a great release.

At the time of DREAMGIRL, it might have been nice if Diana did such a thing. But she was newly married and about to become pregnant. She might have thought that taking the high road was the best thing. I do remember her saying to US Magazine that she felt Mary was entitled to her opinion but it was completely different from how she saw things but she didn't bear ill will.

Unfortunately, DREAMGIRL opened the door for many other books with Diana stories. Even Brenda Lee saw fit to include her less than fond memories of Diana in her book while Glen Campbell actually went the other way in his.

[marybrewster]

does anyone know what other hits or major artists Gus worked on? i know he did a lot but what else was he doing around the time he did those tracks with Mary? be interesting to speculate if some of those might have worked for mary to flesh out a full album

I believe Gus had previously worked with Elton John. Makes you wonder if Mary had met Gus during the TOUCH years; didn't Elton write the liner notes?

[reese]

I believe Gus had previously worked with Elton John. Makes you wonder if Mary had met Gus during the TOUCH years; didn't Elton write the liner notes?

Elton did write the notes for TOUCH. I think one book attributed that to his becoming friendly with Cindy when his band Bluesology did backup for the Bluebelles during their trip to England.

[marybrewster]

I'm mostly inclined to agree here. While I don't think Mary's book is perfect, I do not read it with a "Diana Dearest" vibe, as you put it. While one could argue that some of what Mary wrote did imply that Diana was malicious at certain times, I think if you really pay attention, most, if not all of it, painted the picture of an insecure young lady, under a tremendous amount of pressure to succeed- to be the best, even- and she did things to further herself along, sometimes at the expense of others. She also lashed out at others, as people under pressure will sometimes do, and of course being in a group or entourage with the same people 24/7, those are the ones who get the bulk of the wrath.

With everything I've read about Diana Ross over the years, the more I realize Mary's first book could have been a HUGE hit piece on Diana, if that's truly where she was going. Mary apparently left out a ton of juicy details she could have used if she really wanted to make Diana look like the Wicked Witch of Detroit.

A lot is made of Mary's books, that it's one sided, etc. But whose POV was she supposed to use in writing her books, Diana's? And lets be real, if Diana had jumped on the "tell all" bandwagon with her book, no Rosser would bat an eye if Diana wrote about how Flo and Mary sometimes made her feel, the things they said to her face and behind her back, any of the ways she felt they may have tried to malign her trajectory. So I don't know why it was so bad for Mary to write about the same things as it related to her experience with Diana.

I will say there were times in the first book where it was clear Mary had been holding stuff in- insignificant stuff, IMO- and she tossed it in the book as digs at Diana. The story about Diana flirting with Mary's fiance; or the one about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home without offering to trade off with Mary, while Mary slept on the floor; Diana going off on Mary about eating too slowly, immediately come to mind. Yes, they paint a picture of someone who crossed lines or disregarded the feelings of others. But it was so long ago.

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

Does anyone know when it was public knowledge that Rhonda Ross was Diana and Berry's? I don't recall reading it in DREAMGIRL. Now THAT ALONE would have been scandalous.

[sansradio]

Does anyone know when it was public knowledge that Rhonda Ross was Diana and Berry's? I don't recall reading it in DREAMGIRL. Now THAT ALONE would have been scandalous.

It had been common knowledge since the beginning, especially in the African-American community. But the first public acknowledgement I recall was in Raynoma's book.

[Boogiedown]

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

And how do you know pushing her away was never her intention?? Apologies aren't about press releases just to make you look good. And you have to own your bad behavior, not apologize that the other person "felt" some kind of way because of them .

IF Diana really felt bad or really cared , your conclusion that she should have called Mary and said, "whoa, was I really that bad.? I didn't realize, but I see now I did some bad stuff and I'm sorry." --- that would've gone a long ways.

OR it might have gone like this:

Diana: "Girl what's the big idea of citing those little incidences about me in that horrible book of yours ?"

Mary: "Well they're all true aren't they ?"

Diana: "That not the point, how dare you write about them and make them public!! I'll never forgive you. Besides, what about all the horrible, terrible stuff YOU did to me !!?"

Mary: "Oh hell, I thought you called to apologize and iron things out. You know what, go on and write your own lil' book then." click.

hee haw!

[marybrewster]

It had been common knowledge since the beginning, especially in the African-American community. But the first public acknowledgement I recall was in Raynoma's book.

I think you'd have to be blind to not know Rhonda's was Berry's. So to my point, DREAMGIRL could have been much more "Diana Dearest" but Mary didn't spill the t.

[reese]

I think you'd have to be blind to not know Rhonda's was Berry's. So to my point, DREAMGIRL could have been much more "Diana Dearest" but Mary didn't spill the t.

As it was, Mary told some business that she didn't need to, like the affairs with Smokey and Brian Holland. But at least, she didn't go into Rhonda's paternity. As it happened after the 60s, there would have been no reason to get into that anyway.

But I really felt Raynoma was low to confirm Rhonda's paternity for publication. It wasn't her business and it had no bearing on her life. Her book was just as juicy with all of her Berry revelations. It didn't need any more spice.

According to J. Randy, Diana was in some salon when Raynoma appeared on the Joan Rivers show and dropped the bomb about Rhonda. Supposedly she got the hell out of there and was so hurt that she pulled out of possibly hosting MOTOWN 30.

[sup_fan]

in regards to Mary's books, i think the problem is she gives a rather unbalanced recap of Diana's actions. she took the time to remember pretty trivial slights, like when Diana made mary sleep on the floor while she took the couch. And yet she doesn't mention stories that others have shared about how BOTH D and M really fought to help flo and smooth things over, or the times D,M and C had laughs and fun. surely it wasn't gloom and doom every day. so there's a long laundry list of Diana being snippy and a bitch and next to nothing of anything nice she ever did.

so if you're listing a myriad of the bad and little to nothing of the good, it's pretty clear what the intent was.

[Boogiedown]

in regards to Mary's books, i think the problem is she gives a rather unbalanced recap of Diana's actions. she took the time to remember pretty trivial slights, like when Diana made mary sleep on the floor while she took the couch..

Sometimes a certain incident encapsulates a bigger picture. Don't recall the details here ...but if Diana "made" Mary sleep on the floor ....yep that's pretty crummy and illustrates who between them she thought was more entitled.

So how did it go down??
"There's only one couch and I'm taking it" ----
"Mary [I have a bad back or whatever] , do you mind if I have the couch?" --- sought permission, negotiated , connived.
"Well there's only one couch , let's flip for it! " with Diana winning --- equitable approach
"Tell you what, why don't we both sleep on the floor." wow, Mother Teresa moment with Mary then saying, no that's silly Diane , you have the couch ....

[marybrewster]

As it was, Mary told some business that she didn't need to, like the affairs with Smokey and Brian Holland. But at least, she didn't go into Rhonda's paternity. As it happened after the 60s, there would have been no reason to get into that anyway.

But I really felt Raynoma was low to confirm Rhonda's paternity for publication. It wasn't her business and it had no bearing on her life. Her book was just as juicy with all of her Berry revelations. It didn't need any more spice.

According to J. Randy, Diana was in some salon when Raynoma appeared on the Joan Rivers show and dropped the bomb about Rhonda. Supposedly she got the hell out of there and was so hurt that she pulled out of possibly hosting MOTOWN 30.

I agree that it was definitely in poor taste to mention Diana's conquests; if anything she might have eluded without naming names.....although didn't Smokey recently mention in an interview that he had been in the kip with Diana? Not sure what angle he was going for with 60 year old news.

Raynoma's revelation was definitely the low of lows. But sex and scandal sells. Regardless, it sounds like EVERYONE at Motown was doing the snake dance in the sheets.

I know some have questioned Mary divulging Flo's rape. While that's a sensitive subject, I do think it's critical to the story. Clearly that event was a pivotal moment in Flo's life. It wasn't until years later that in another book [[?) that her rapist was called out by name.

[reese]

I agree that it was definitely in poor taste to mention Diana's conquests; if anything she might have eluded without naming names.....although didn't Smokey recently mention in an interview that he had been in the kip with Diana? Not sure what angle he was going for with 60 year old news.

Raynoma's revelation was definitely the low of lows. But sex and scandal sells. Regardless, it sounds like EVERYONE at Motown was doing the snake dance in the sheets.

I know some have questioned Mary divulging Flo's rape. While that's a sensitive subject, I do think it's critical to the story. Clearly that event was a pivotal moment in Flo's life. It wasn't until years later that in another book [[?) that her rapist was called out by name.

Recently Smokey admitted to having an affair with Diana but only because the interviewer lied to him, saying that Diana discussed it in her book, which wasn't true. Before that, Smokey either said they were friends or that he had dated Diana before Berry did. I suppose now Smokey might feel that it has been over 60 years, who the hell cares?

In a Players article, Mary said that Flo's family wasn't happy with the rape revelation and I can understand that. But otherwise, Mary would have painted a picture of Flo as a woman who just had a drinking problem because of not getting to sing lead when Flo had issues much deeper than that. So even though it wasn't her news to share, I understand why Mary did it.

Peter Benjamin's book named the assailant but he noted that Flo never discussed that with him. He got the name from one of Flo's nieces.

[sup_fan]

i believe the rape went to court and flo actually testified. therefore the rapist would be named as part of the public record. it's also a huge credit to flo that she was willing and able to do this. confronting your assailant can be a wildly traumatizing event, reliving the pain and fear. many victims simply cannot bring themselves to do this. for flo to do so, shows real strength of character [[please note this isn't meant to infer that those that cannot do so are weak or at fault)

[RanRan79]

Yes, I agree in that I always wondered why so many people got so upset. Mary clearly left out anything truly damaging and some of the things she included were little things we all might get upset about with friends. Some of the things seemed rather petty and didn't paint either in a bad light.
I only wish Diana would have responded to Dreamgirl in that way. By not responding she caused some to feel she was even more difficult than presented in the book, while others felt that they must have been all lies and it would be beneath her dignity to reply. Diana shouldn't have dismissed Mary so easily. Had they spoke and perhaps talked things out the results would have been more positive. That kind of press release would have not only helped Diana's reputation but also did a little to heal the friendship of Diana and Mary. I really wish she had done something like that press release.

I think Mary was really the first person to go on record about the fact that Diana could be difficult to deal with. The rumors were already out there. The perception of her as a "bitch" was already a thing. Mary basically just confirmed it, and the confirmation had weight because she was one of the Supremes.

The whole thing was messed up because of their psyches. Mary grew up being someone who buried her feelings in order to keep things from getting out of control. This is something seen quite commonly in the mental health field. So many people suppressing their emotions in order to placate other people. When it came to Diana and even Florence, and probably especially Berry, Mary would choose to swallow her anger and hurt because of where she saw herself on the Supremes totem pole. She only really risked the wrath of Florence when Mary realized that Flo was on her way out anyway. So Mary basically stored up a ton of animosity about things said and done as it related to Diana and it all came tumbling out in a book. I think both she and Diana would have been better served if Mary had gotten in Diana's face and let her know in no uncertain terms that she didn't like it when Diana said...or she didn't like it when Diana did... Perhaps Diana might- might- have thought twice about anything she might do or say that rubbed her friend the wrong way.

On the flip, Diana had no problem letting her feelings out. What she did have a problem with was not acknowledging how her actions or words may have made other people feel. All these years and Diana has never seemed to publicly acknowledge her role in why some people who know her have had issues with her, be it the past or present. I don't believe anyone should spend their lives ruminating over someone else's inability to get over the past, but it does say something about character when you accept accountability. Diana got angry at Mary for Dreamgirl and other stuff, but never once accepted that some of this was her very own fault. Mary is often accused of having a victim mentality. I'd wager Diana also has had one where this issue is concerned. It's always "Everybody's being mean to me and saying bad things about me" rather than acknowledging what might have led up to those things being said or the treatment she's getting.

[RanRan79]

You should go into PR, Ran Ran. This is a great release.

At the time of DREAMGIRL, it might have been nice if Diana did such a thing. But she was newly married and about to become pregnant. She might have thought that taking the high road was the best thing. I do remember her saying to US Magazine that she felt Mary was entitled to her opinion but it was completely different from how she saw things but she didn't bear ill will.

Unfortunately, DREAMGIRL opened the door for many other books with Diana stories. Even Brenda Lee saw fit to include her less than fond memories of Diana in her book while Glen Campbell actually went the other way in his.

What the heck did Brenda Lee have to say about Diana Ross? Same for Glen? I haven't read their books. Wouldn't have even thought Diana would be a topic for either of them.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment Reese!

Diana was always letting these stories hang in the air. One can take the high road and still acknowledge the issue on the table. Now I would never suggest that Diana go public every single time someone had something to say, but I would think when you really cared about someone, as we assume she did care for Mary, if she read Dreamgirl [[I've heard she didn't, but I've never believed it for a second), to read it and think "That's Mary's opinion" rather than "I didn't mean it that way" or even "I had nothing to do with that, it was Berry!", it points to a bigger issue with her that she just didn't get how her actions impacted other people.

It's like the bully who looks back at him/herself and thinks the wedgies, toilet swirlies, and crude nicknames was all in good fun, not realizing that those things made kids want to end their own lives, or gave them complexes when dealing with other people going forward. Diana looks back and sees herself and the fun she was having. If Mary was unhappy it was all Mary's fault. I'm guessing.

[RanRan79]

Does anyone know when it was public knowledge that Rhonda Ross was Diana and Berry's? I don't recall reading it in DREAMGIRL. Now THAT ALONE would have been scandalous.

Yup, if Mary was trying to win the big one, all she had to do was expose that nugget.

[RanRan79]

As it was, Mary told some business that she didn't need to, like the affairs with Smokey and Brian Holland. But at least, she didn't go into Rhonda's paternity. As it happened after the 60s, there would have been no reason to get into that anyway.

But I really felt Raynoma was low to confirm Rhonda's paternity for publication. It wasn't her business and it had no bearing on her life. Her book was just as juicy with all of her Berry revelations. It didn't need any more spice.

According to J. Randy, Diana was in some salon when Raynoma appeared on the Joan Rivers show and dropped the bomb about Rhonda. Supposedly she got the hell out of there and was so hurt that she pulled out of possibly hosting MOTOWN 30.

Raynoma is and was disgusting for that one. I wonder if she ever apologized to Diana and Rhonda about that.

My biggest issue with Dreamgirl was Mary's disclosures of Diana's relationships. Because the relationship with Gordy had a huge impact on the group, that was inevitable to be written about. But whatever Diana was up to with Smokey, with Brian Holland, with that White dude from the east coast, that was not Mary's business to tell, and if I were Diana I would be pissed about that and would have let Mary know it.

Mary also needed to take some accountability. Writing that book, especially knowing how Diana is, Mary knew it could cause issues between them, perhaps irreparably. She shows up at Diana's show with Turkessa and then feels some type of way when Diana is like "Bitch please". She couldn't have been that dumb. And I don't blame Diana at all for ghosting Mary for revealing her private life.

Let's be real, the story of Mary Wilson would probably have only done marginally well had she left out Diana's behavior and Flo's issues. Had Mary written about her own exploits during the 60s, in addition to the issues within the group and so forth, she would have still had a bestseller on her hands and she didn't need to dip into Diana's love life to do it. Yet still, in light of further information, we know Mary didn't include everything she could have about Diana's love life. Not one mention of Diana and Eddie in her book.

[RanRan79]

I know some have questioned Mary divulging Flo's rape. While that's a sensitive subject, I do think it's critical to the story. Clearly that event was a pivotal moment in Flo's life. It wasn't until years later that in another book [[?) that her rapist was called out by name.

Yeah, I think even this was included to make the book more sensational, but it also served a bigger purpose, as for those who wanted to better understand what Flo might have been going through, it was a revelation that gave insight into how Flo could go from Point A to Point B.

[RanRan79]

Recently Smokey admitted to having an affair with Diana but only because the interviewer lied to him, saying that Diana discussed it in her book, which wasn't true. Before that, Smokey either said they were friends or that he had dated Diana before Berry did. I suppose now Smokey might feel that it has been over 60 years, who the hell cares?

In a Players article, Mary said that Flo's family wasn't happy with the rape revelation and I can understand that. But otherwise, Mary would have painted a picture of Flo as a woman who just had a drinking problem because of not getting to sing lead when Flo had issues much deeper than that. So even though it wasn't her news to share, I understand why Mary did it.

Peter Benjamin's book named the assailant but he noted that Flo never discussed that with him. He got the name from one of Flo's nieces.

I didn't realize Smokey had been duped. I just assumed that he decided to talk about 60 year old stuff that neither he nor Diana probably care about at this stage of their lives.

I thought it was one of Flo's sisters who told Benjaminson who Flo's rapist was.

[RanRan79]

i believe the rape went to court and flo actually testified. therefore the rapist would be named as part of the public record. it's also a huge credit to flo that she was willing and able to do this. confronting your assailant can be a wildly traumatizing event, reliving the pain and fear. many victims simply cannot bring themselves to do this. for flo to do so, shows real strength of character [[please note this isn't meant to infer that those that cannot do so are weak or at fault)

Except, according to Maxine, this never happened. The only justice Florence received was when her family went out and whooped his butt. Where Mary got this information from is a big question. I suspect two things:

1) Flo's brother was a cop, so it's possible that at some point Flo may have gone in to speak with the police but for whatever reason the subject was dropped. [[Perhaps she chose not to put herself through any further humiliation that would have come with court proceedings.) Mary might remember this as Flo testifying.

2) Flo lied and said she testified and told Mary the dude was convicted. Perhaps it was her way of taking some control back, even if it was made up. Mary did say that Flo never revealed his name, so Mary wouldn't have known if he was locked up or not.

But Maxine was adamant that the trash who raped Flo didn't get anything other than a beat down.

Btw, even if Flo did go to court, it would have been a case involving a minor, at which point her name would not be in a public record. The rapist, being of age, would have been public, but not his victim.

[marybrewster]

Raynoma is and was disgusting for that one. I wonder if she ever apologized to Diana and Rhonda about that.

My biggest issue with Dreamgirl was Mary's disclosures of Diana's relationships. Because the relationship with Gordy had a huge impact on the group, that was inevitable to be written about. But whatever Diana was up to with Smokey, with Brian Holland, with that White dude from the east coast, that was not Mary's business to tell, and if I were Diana I would be pissed about that and would have let Mary know it.

Mary also needed to take some accountability. Writing that book, especially knowing how Diana is, Mary knew it could cause issues between them, perhaps irreparably. She shows up at Diana's show with Turkessa and then feels some type of way when Diana is like "Bitch please". She couldn't have been that dumb. And I don't blame Diana at all for ghosting Mary for revealing her private life.

Let's be real, the story of Mary Wilson would probably have only done marginally well had she left out Diana's behavior and Flo's issues. Had Mary written about her own exploits during the 60s, in addition to the issues within the group and so forth, she would have still had a bestseller on her hands and she didn't need to dip into Diana's love life to do it. Yet still, in light of further information, we know Mary didn't include everything she could have about Diana's love life. Not one mention of Diana and Eddie in her book.

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!

[reese]

What the heck did Brenda Lee have to say about Diana Ross? Same for Glen? I haven't read their books. Wouldn't have even thought Diana would be a topic for either of them.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment Reese!

Diana was always letting these stories hang in the air. One can take the high road and still acknowledge the issue on the table. Now I would never suggest that Diana go public every single time someone had something to say, but I would think when you really cared about someone, as we assume she did care for Mary, if she read Dreamgirl [[I've heard she didn't, but I've never believed it for a second), to read it and think "That's Mary's opinion" rather than "I didn't mean it that way" or even "I had nothing to do with that, it was Berry!", it points to a bigger issue with her that she just didn't get how her actions impacted other people.

It's like the bully who looks back at him/herself and thinks the wedgies, toilet swirlies, and crude nicknames was all in good fun, not realizing that those things made kids want to end their own lives, or gave them complexes when dealing with other people going forward. Diana looks back and sees herself and the fun she was having. If Mary was unhappy it was all Mary's fault. I'm guessing.

As I recall, Brenda spoke about performing at the same Billboard convention as the Supremes and wrote that while Mary and Flo were nice, Diana wasn't.

I haven't read his book in a while. But I believe Glen said how impressed he was when they worked on SHINDIG! together and he didn't know why people talked badly about her.

[reese]

I didn't realize Smokey had been duped. I just assumed that he decided to talk about 60 year old stuff that neither he nor Diana probably care about at this stage of their lives.

I thought it was one of Flo's sisters who told Benjaminson who Flo's rapist was.

I just looked in the book and he said it was a niece.

[jobeterob]

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!

You have a rhymy smiley way with words that dig a little, lol

But I think the “twig in the wig” is from Motown 25. In order to make an entrance where they would be recognized, I think Cindy’s husband got them to cut through some bushes and appear in a certain spot while he yelled “Look it’s a couple of the Supremes!”

[Ollie9]

Yup, if Mary was trying to win the big one, all she had to do was expose that nugget.

Very true. If Diana hadn’t acted indifferent when Mary first informed her of plans for a book its focus might have been quite different.
It seems these women made a point of never taking time out in their oh so busy lives to have a professional discussion about anything of importance ever. You couldn’t make it up.

[RanRan79]

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!

Lol No, that was Motown 25, and was a JRT story. I have no doubt that Mary and Cindy may have had to endure the humiliation of some kind of second class Motown citizenship that night, forcing them to go some round about way to get to the red carpet, but I've never believed that two former Supremes- especially Mary and Cindy- would squeeze through bushes in their finery to do it.

The Turkessa episode was during the Working Overtime tour, I think.

[RanRan79]

As I recall, Brenda spoke about performing at the same Billboard convention as the Supremes and wrote that while Mary and Flo were nice, Diana wasn't.

I haven't read his book in a while. But I believe Glen said how impressed he was when they worked on SHINDIG! together and he didn't know why people talked badly about her.

Just goes to show that not everyone's experience with any particular person is the same.

[RanRan79]

I just looked in the book and he said it was a niece.

Yeah, that's my fault. If Reese said it was a niece, I'm the idiot for questioning our human Supremes Encyclopedia. Lesson learned.

Hey, if you ever do take my suggestion and pile all of your Supremes knowledge into a book, may I suggest The Supremes Encyclopedia as a title?

[RanRan79]

Very true. If Diana hadn’t acted indifferent when Mary first informed her of plans for a book its focus might have been quite different.
It seems these women made a point of never taking time out in their oh so busy lives to have a professional discussion about anything of importance ever. You couldn’t make it up.

That's a good point too. Unfortunately, I think if Diana had to go down memory lane with Mary, they very well would have ended up confronting certain issues, including Florence, and I'm betting Diana was extremely uncomfortable with that.

It appears that Diana had a habit of dismissing Mary whenever she felt like it, and then feels blindsided when Mary decides to do what Mary decides to do.

Ultimately, this was not a conventional friendship. These were basically two family members with completely different lives, moving in different directions, who couldn't deny their need to reconnect on occasion. Like a lot of relatives, they gather together for a quick meal or a party, maybe a short phone call or visit, but as Diana once said, they don't talk about "the heart". Friends get into this kind of stuff. Friends communicate. Mary and Diana were no longer friends. Hadn't been friends in a very long time. But they were forever bonded together, and that was something they couldn't shake loose. [[See what I did there?)

[reese]

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!

J. Randy wrote that Mary wanted to attend Diana's 1981 Forum concert but couldn't get tickets from Diana's office. A friend secured tickets from director Steve Binder's office for Mary and some other friends. When they arrived at the Forum, they didn't have a VIP parking pass and had to park in a Holiday Inn lot several thousand feet away. Supposedly, to get to the Forum, Mary and friends had to use a shortcut and "traipse through weeds and bushes."

As Ran Ran noted, the incident with Mary and Turkessa not being received backstage happened at the Universal Ampitheatre during Diana's Workin' Overtime engagement in 1989.

[reese]

Yeah, that's my fault. If Reese said it was a niece, I'm the idiot for questioning our human Supremes Encyclopedia. Lesson learned.

Hey, if you ever do take my suggestion and pile all of your Supremes knowledge into a book, may I suggest The Supremes Encyclopedia as a title?

I'll give you credit for the title.

[sup_fan]

That's a good point too. Unfortunately, I think if Diana had to go down memory lane with Mary, they very well would have ended up confronting certain issues, including Florence, and I'm betting Diana was extremely uncomfortable with that.

It appears that Diana had a habit of dismissing Mary whenever she felt like it, and then feels blindsided when Mary decides to do what Mary decides to do.

Ultimately, this was not a conventional friendship. These were basically two family members with completely different lives, moving in different directions, who couldn't deny their need to reconnect on occasion. Like a lot of relatives, they gather together for a quick meal or a party, maybe a short phone call or visit, but as Diana once said, they don't talk about "the heart". Friends get into this kind of stuff. Friends communicate. Mary and Diana were no longer friends. Hadn't been friends in a very long time. But they were forever bonded together, and that was something they couldn't shake loose. [[See what I did there?)

how many of us have friendships the endure for 30, 40 years? how many of you have extremely close friendships with people from jr high? people come and go from your life. sure it's possible - i have a handful that i'm still quite close with. some where we'd drifted apart over the years and then reconnected. but it's more typical that people grow apart. and this isn't the result of some heinous act one of the people committed. it's just that as you grow up, you go down different paths, your personalities diverge.

we've talked about how different the 3 supremes were from each other, in terms of personality. so even though they had similar careers, it's quite possible that D and M just grew apart. they liked different things, had different points of view, different focuses. that could very well explain why they might have had less in common.

also they were just busy - they were heavily involved in their own careers, marriages, motherhood, their own personal issues. it seems that both remained relatively supportive of the other during their 70s careers. Diana would attend and support the girls, there are stories of mary attending shows too. diana was immediately there at her opening.

[marybrewster]

You have a rhymy smiley way with words that dig a little, lol

But I think the “twig in the wig” is from Motown 25. In order to make an entrance where they would be recognized, I think Cindy’s husband got them to cut through some bushes and appear in a certain spot while he yelled “Look it’s a couple of the Supremes!”

I love Mary, and her flair for the dramatic. Check her out singing "Ave Maria" sometime, LOL!

There's a little bit of ridiculousness that some of these stories are still being told 30, 40, 50, and 60 years later. Sometimes you gotta spicen them up a bit to keep them relevant and interesting. But like anyone else, sometimes they change over the years, like "telephone"! Oh well. At least I didn't say Diana pushed Mary into the bushes.

[marybrewster]

J. Randy wrote that Mary wanted to attend Diana's 1981 Forum concert but couldn't get tickets from Diana's office. A friend secured tickets from director Steve Binder's office for Mary and some other friends. When they arrived at the Forum, they didn't have a VIP parking pass and had to park in a Holiday Inn lot several thousand feet away. Supposedly, to get to the Forum, Mary and friends had to use a shortcut and "traipse through weeds and bushes."

As Ran Ran noted, the incident with Mary and Turkessa not being received backstage happened at the Universal Ampitheatre during Diana's Workin' Overtime engagement in 1989.

Thank you reese.

[sup_fan]

also i'm still laughing to myself over the "twig in the wig" line!! lol

if i remember the story correctly, it wasn't totally that motown was giving them the shaft. it was that they parked in a parking lot and then wanted to go walk the red carpet. in order to do so, they had to walk around the building and apparently traipse through some bushes. when they approached the red carpet, no one really seemed to notice them until one of their escorts hollered out "look! it's two of the supremes!!"

my guess is motown had planned who would be arriving by chauffer-driven car to the red carpet point. usually those are not just open for any random person to drive up to. and my guess is M and C didn't make the cut to be part of that.

the story also made is sound like mary was NOT waiting for cindy lol and cindy had to sort of hurry along to catch up. i can see mary not worrying 1 bit if cindy had made it through the landscape lol. mary was a shark when it came to PR - she could smell a whiff of Entertainment Tonight crew from about 500 miles away, like a shark can smell 1 tiny drop of blood on the other side of the ocean