Just a chime....or??

[Jerry Oz]

I was going to wear a tinfoil hat so they couldn't read my thoughts. Then, I flipped back through this thread [[and others) and realized that I'm posting them for God and the world to read anyway, so why would I care?

Stoopid aliens.

[westgrandboulevard]

It's odd. Who's Online reveals a whole slew of these spammers, registering each day as members, with many then going on to view the threads. Some make it onto the member list, but many don't.

And, all the while, the member total displayed remains at 2192..........but which appears to be 'frozen', as the last member who was welcomed, Uwe Cremer, joined last June......

[144man]

It's very disturbing if new members aren't being properly verified.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes it is, especially as their details are obviously bogus.

[144man]

I have reservations about some of the current users on-line. "Country" should be a compulsory field.

[westgrandboulevard]

I would agree with that. The first four details on our 'About Me' page [[first name, city, state, nation) should be compulsory.

If anyone finds that unacceptable, they still have the opportunity of being a 'guest', and to read the threads, but not to participate.

[Jerry Oz]

In perfect honesty, I haven't noticed. I do agree that this forum is only viable if the people who join and post here are interested in the common theme and also in honestly commenting on the threads without trolling or hidden agendas.

[144man]

The actual names being used are in bad taste and are a cause for concern. Why would a genuine poster use a name like "sexshop"?

I am beginning to wonder why there is the need for anonimity on a forum such as this. If people used their real names, perhaps it would discourage trolls and maybe everyone would get along better.

[westgrandboulevard]

I can see there are advantages to having a 'screen' name - and I can imagine there may be additional advantages of which I'm currently unaware, but which further protect my interests.

In a way, it's similar in style identity to when we were known as Mr A, Mrs B and Miss C to our colleagues and customers during working hours, and then often known by one's first name to the same people when not on duty.

I use my landline and mobile numbers also as a filter ,and generally do not answer if I do not recognise the incoming number, especially if it is withheld, or 'unavailable'. Genuine callers will leave a message, to which I will respond as soon as possible.

It's good to have the opportunity of sending personal messages to other SDF members, when I will generally use my own name.

I think 'recognition' and 'trust' are keywords on this topic . That is what unsettles me about new members who,by using names which are randomly and sometimes inappropriately created, may not be what the genuine SDF members would expect them to be.

[Jerry Oz]

Trolls thrive on attention. Typically, if they don't get the response they want, they will go away. Hopefully Ralph will be able police them before they have a significantly negative effect on the forum. We need to draw good members, not to drive them away with stupidity. Some suggested that there be mini-moderators in place to keep the pages appropriate by banning members who cause problems. Perhaps they are correct.

[westgrandboulevard]

I'm wondering if I should view them as just 'traffic' at the moment. Most new members who register do not go on to become regular contributors, many having zero or very few posts against their names on the member list.

This is,after all, a forum, so I guess it will never achieve the absolute state of perfection we each individually might wish it to be, as we would all differ in our ideals.

I'd say this forum can only be as good as the active and positive contributions made by its members, so perhaps best to keep our focus on that......

[Jerry Oz]

I was waiting in line at the grocery store service counter a few days ago when a crackhead stepped in place behind me. There were about seven people in front of me and the woman being served at the time apparently had a difficult transaction for the attendant.

The crackhead behind me took less than one minute to get agitated at the slow pace of the line. "This is bullsh*t!", was the first thing she said, saying it loud enough that she knew she was being heard.

When nobody in line co-signed onto her opinion she stirred. "Why's there only one person behind the counter?", still shouting. No responses.

"There's always a manager walking around until you need one! This it stupid! Why don't they have somebody else back there?" I didn't get the impression that she expected answers to her questions or that she commanded the respect that a response would provide.

At this point, I was about to step from the line, obtain an employment application, and advise her to fill it out since it was obvious that her expertise in retail management was exactly what the store needed. But I didn't. I don't engage crackheads typically; the encounters are seldom productive and I didn't feel like being thrown out of the store when I had a refund due for product being returned.

Instead, I relegated her chatter to background noise and found it easy enough to ignore her. Treat these invaders as such background noise. If nobody takes the bait, they will quickly become bored and go pollute somebody else's forum. If engaged, they tend to reproduce and things will never be the same. I've seen it and I know it to be true.

[westgrandboulevard]

Absolutely agree, Jerry. And reading of your experience, it's not difficult to see why transactions online are more attractive to people, than visiting a public place.

Do you have notices on display in certain places [[surgeries, post offices etc), as we do in UK, advising with words to the effect that they expect their staff to be respectful to their customers - but, in addition, that no disrespect or bad behaviour will be tolerated from their customers, who will not be served, and may be asked to leave, or banned?

I always think it's a pity it has come to the point where you go somewhere for service with a routine transaction, expecting to be polite to your own standard of behaviour, and then receive a message which seems to carry the inference 'don't even think about giving us any of your stuff'......

[144man]

There can be a thin line between "assertive" and "aggressive".

[westgrandboulevard]

It often seems that 'assertion' is 'aggression', just wearing a polite expression.

[Jerry Oz]

We don't have those notices, but I wish we did. For the most part, such experiences are very rare. With that being said, I have a low tolerance for people who demand my attention when their problem is not with me. If you are unhappy with customer service at the store, do what I do, which is refuse them your future business. Otherwise, shut yer yap and deal with a situation like an adult because you're not making one problem better by presenting yourself to be another one.

And I agree with 144man. Does it appear to anyone but me that people think the best defense is a strong offense, so before they are willing to hear someone say "no", they go overboard to tell them that they'd better not do it? Even to the point of implied threats. What has happened to civil behavior and acceptance of the rules of society? Even if you're 100% right, it isn't the end of the world to be told otherwise.

[westgrandboulevard]

I think a lot of it is a result of people not engaging with each other on a polite, civil level, and not being trained to recognise the needs of others.

I bet when you go to buy items in a 'bricks and mortar' store, as opposed to online, most of the time no-one 'sells' you anything - i.e. bringing the benefits of the product to your attention, after finding out what your requirements might be.

They simply think that 'selling' means taking your money by processing the transaction, or directing you to where you can make a self-selection.

[Jerry Oz]

Being African-American, it is even more discouraging. The cashier smiles at the shoppers in line before you but forgets to do it when she turns to take your order. She also thanked them and wished them a great day but the extent of conversation with me tends to be "did you find everything" and "do you have any coupons?" When you pick up your bags to leave, you see that she found her smile again for the person behind you and is engaging them. It can bug you if you let it...

I just make sure I don't give them a reason to behave that way. I engage them and make sure they see me smiling, so any problems will be with them, not with us. I also make a point of generously tipping good service at restaurants, even when the waiter performs with an expression that suggests he was sucking on lemons before punching in for his shift. I did that on my birthday last year and the waiter lit up as if he never expected a Black man to tip, let alone tip upwards of 20%. In spite of this, he did his job, so he was rewarded.

Service is a lost art... I smile as often as possible whenever I come in contact with salespeople and cashiers. I did that job for years, and I understand that it's not easy to serve. But by the same token, I always treated people exactly the way that I wanted to be treated and it's hard for me to figure out why everybody doesn't approach their job that way.

[westgrandboulevard]

I agree, it can indeed become difficult when the idea of personal service seems to represent better 'service' to other customers, yet also seems to be 'personal' against you.

You may be thinking that the sales person is perhaps having a bad day, and has things on their mind...but still there is a voice inside your head which is in disagreement.

And there is, of course, always the possibility that you, as a customer, have a greater degree of intelligence, sense of fair play and common civility than the salesperson standing before you.....

[Jerry Oz]

It is an irritating situation, but part of the larger malaise of personal service. My wife and I once went to a grocery store in a less-than-diverse part of town and we were struck by how very friendly the associates were toward us [[and everybody). It's not always racial; typically, I believe that the attitudes of the employees are directly reflective of the attitude of management. Not that employees who display a discriminatory bent are indicative of racist managers, but that employees need to be shown how to serve and how to encourage customers to return. If the manager says smile and be polite, then they will do it. The amazing thing is, not only will they find that they make their customers happy, but they'll also find that their own days tend to be happier as well.

[westgrandboulevard]

While it's not so obvious, I find smiles are as important, maybe even more so, when listening to someone on the phone.

The smile cannot be seen, but it can definitely be felt.

[Jerry Oz]

I absolutely agree with that. My wife called one of our utility companies when we were assessed a late fee [[the first with this company) to see if they would waive it in this instance after years of consistently paying on time. The woman on the other end was curt and stated that she couldn't do anything to help us. My wife asked for a manager and the service rep said there was not one there and "he might not be able to help you anyway".

When my wife asked when to call back, the service rep said that it was typically up to the phone representatives to waive late fees, unwittingly affirming that it was her choice not to waive the fee, not a matter of policy. Ultimately, realizing that she painted herself into a corner and was going to have a complaint lodged against her, she relented "just this once" and waived the fee. So, in doing us a favor after ten minutes of discussion, she wound up looking worse than if she'd left the fee on the account. I would have hung up and called back, knowing that the next person would have done it without all of the grandstanding but my wife is effective in how she handles these things...

[westgrandboulevard]

I don't know if you use the same word, but the woman on the phone sounds like a 'jobsworth' - as in the response when declining to do something requested of them : 'it's more than my job's worth to do that for you'.

If your complaint had gone in, I expect the call was recorded, and her lack of sympathetic tone of voice could have gone against her. So she would have required 'coaching', as I have known it described.

We had an ongoing problem at work earlier this year, repeatedly losing our internet connection. A series of engineers visited from British Telecom [[BT), including one lady, who did some remedial work. The fault continued, but on our next monthly bill was a charge for £250 [[maybe more..). This figure was then taken by direct debit.

It took quite some time for us to get them to understand that we had not requested the work, had assumed it was maintenance work, had not been informed it was chargeable - and which had not remedied the problem in the first instance.

We were pompously informed that a credit would be raised as a 'courtesy gesture'. By using that description, they clearly thought they were doing us a favour for refunding money for something we hadn't requested, and which hadn't solved the problem........

After several visits over a couple of months, the cause of the problem was found. A faulty hub. I'm not a technical person but, afterwards, I did wonder why they hadn't checked that first....

[Jerry Oz]

That situation sounds like it was good for a couple or aspirin or a stiff drink [[or both) after work. For some odd reason, I'm the guy at my warehouse who gets called to resolve things like that. We have no actual IT support on site and of course I am as dumb as a box of rocks, so I have to call the Help Desk when somebody wants to plug in a new phone after their previously one goes bad.

It literally takes three or four hours to switch phones and that burns my britches because it's not like I don't have other things to do. We're so far advanced that it takes two minutes to switch the device but another half a day to find someone who can convince the network to recognize it. SMH. I mention that because service vendors should realize that people are already frustrated to need the service, so it should be a point of emphasis to make their days better via a smile, positive attitude, or at least a word of encouragement.

[westgrandboulevard]

Absolutely. While it's unacceptable for customers to loudly and volubly expect service industry personnel to act in a strictly servile manner, it's just as unacceptable for service industry personnel to display 'attitude' to customers, talking themselves up as if they represented the hand of vast experience, reaching back to the completely uninitiated.

Imagine someone calling a funeral home to ask them to collect the body of a deceased loved one, and to receive a response on the lines of "Well yeah, OK, but you do of course understand that it happens?".......

[Jerry Oz]

In fairness to the service representatives, it's also possible that 95% of the calls they receive are hostile, so they condition themselves to expect every call to be combative. The attitude may be because most people are indeed ignorant of the service they expect or already a bit chippy to need the service to begin with. That's not an excuse for anything other than the utmost professionalism, but it might explain why some are combative from the moment they hear someone request satisfaction.

[westgrandboulevard]

That's how I feel. You've only to hear the background noise in those call centres, to imagine it to be like one of those huge, hangar style buildings, filled with thousands of chickens. It's dehumanising.

Most of us can expect quite a high success rate in our work but, yes, they'd be lucky to get 5%.

It's the wrong way round.

Makes you think there must be a more efficient way of tackling the challenge.

Do you receive a steady stream of what appear to be unauthorised phone calls at your home?

[Jerry Oz]

Yes, but I screen my calls. Most of them leave no message when I don't answer and my life is much simpler because of it. I don't even need caller ID because those who know me know to leave a message.

[westgrandboulevard]

That's exactly what I do. I have registered my landline number with the Telephone Preference Service [[TPS) to filter out unsolicited calls.

As you say. most don't leave messages if there's no answer - I use the BT 1571 facility, and the incoming calls just cut out when that kicks in.

Many of the calls [[mostly pre-recorded messages) now appear to come from your own part of the world, and are therefore not covered by the TPS exclusion.

[Jerry Oz]

We have the No Call Registry here that permits you to put your name on a list that prevents unsolicited phone calls. Of course, it's only as good as the companies that it covers, so the worst of them continue to bug people that they know are forbidden.

[westgrandboulevard]

Just like receiving emails which don't have an 'unsubscribe' link.

[Jerry Oz]

Or those that come unsolicited after you wrote to a company to complain about their service. No return call to address the concern that was raised; just the opportunity to receive the same bad service at 10% by end of this week...

[westgrandboulevard]

That certainly fits the description of 'distance selling'.

The company may as well be based on Mars.

[Jerry Oz]

Well, the company went bankrupt, so they might as well be on another planet.

[westgrandboulevard]

I often wonder how some businesses do keep going.

Some of the retail parks have huge spaces given over to masses of stock, but the number of customers is the same or less than many smaller outlets. They never seem very busy.

And while smaller independent stores steadily disappear, everyone is sitting around, drinking coffee, and looking at the internet.

[Jerry Oz]

People wonder what happened to that quaint little bookstore or that coffee shop with the waitresses who always seemed to share an honest smile. Well, they went out of business due to low patronage. Never do they wonder why they found it easier to drive further to get to Barnes & Noble or Starbucks. It does not seem fair shot when the people who claim to "love" them still prefer familiarity over new...

[westgrandboulevard]

It's fair to say that customers will always buy what they want, and where they want. So, I guess that determines the selection of businesses operating at any given time. And thank goodness for the internet, which allows customers and niche retailers to find each other.

We now have far too many shops in the UK. Most High Streets have a number of empty shops, and some with many. But new retail units are still being created in areas where the footfall is currently dense, so I imagine the empty ones in the old High Streets will need to be converted for residential use.

[Jerry Oz]

Or perhaps parking lots...? The times, they are a'changin'...

[westgrandboulevard]

For many, the times are changing back to how it was in the beginning.

Smaller businesses often began from people's front rooms [[at least here in the UK) with local residents as their customers.

Now people once again operate businesses from home, but with the use of the internet, so their customers could be anywhere in the world.

We have the option of our groceries being delivered to our homes once again, and the large supermarket chains are now represented by small satellite stores, often on or near street corners, just as before.

What goes around, comes around - but with a twist, so never quite as before. Fascinating.

[Jerry Oz]

It is indeed fascinating. The old saw "if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door" has never been more true. However, that mousetrap has to have the correct marketing and optimal distribution strategy if it is to be sustainable. Often, it's not the first movers who succeed in the long run, but those who see what the first movers did and made small but critical improvements to their business models.

That's why Netflix beat Blockbuster and also why Facebook made MySpace nearly obsolete. To say the least of why Nintendo and Sega lost to Playstation; it happens again and again. Smart people realize that consumers won't be truly satisfied until they read our minds and deliver what we want before we even ask for it.

[westgrandboulevard]

The third sentence of your first paragraph rings very true with me. Taking something which is recognised as good, and using it as inspiration for a new venture, is logical, and proven very often to work.

As this is a Detroit Forum, it seems appropriate to say that I've been intently listening to Della Reese of late. I'm unsure if she ever recorded much, if at all, in Detroit, but I believe she is regarded as a Detroit girl, and one with her own distinctive style.

I've heard it said that Berry Gordy encouraged Diana Ross to listen to Brenda Holloway, for inspiration on technique.

I would also say that Diana Ross definitely listened to Della's crisp articulation and conviction, and also her deeper tones, and used them in performances of songs by Rodgers & Hart, also 'With a song in my heart/Without A Song'.

Back in the day, when I first heard The Supremes take on those songs, something did sound familiar, but Diana's voice is much higher and lighter, so the inspiration of the style was not so obvious. Now, at least to me, it is. And Diana indeed learned to sell those songs well, so it was a very effective marketing ploy.

[Jerry Oz]

There are so many musical clones in the industry today that you have to sell your difference in order to succeed. Not in sound or even quality, but in performance. The Temptations, Smokey & the Miracles, the Supremes, et al. all delivered both aspects: unique sound, wonderful acts. That level of professionalism is what's missing, in my personal view.

Berry Gordy was well aware of the importance of effective marketing. Sadly, music in the 21st century is deemed to be "popular" based more on image than substance [[at least it is in my opinion). If you cannot wow them with your voice, do it with shock value. Perhaps Norah Jones or Diane Schuur should be swinging naked from a wrecking ball in order to sell a few more records, a la Miley Cyrus? That's not to take a shot at the young woman who sits on top of the charts, either. I'm just too set in my old ways to appreciate it, I guess...

[westgrandboulevard]

Style over substance? Yes, that's exactly how I see it, too.

I was unpacking the groceries earlier, and Boyzone were on the TV, celebrating their 20 years in show business.

They are undoubtedly popular but, as I listened while I stored the goodies, for the first time I thought "None of them have any real stage presence, even Ronan Keating, who seems to be the star of the group. They are projecting no personalities of their own. The harmonies are not great. The lead vocals sound strained, and there's no melody in the voices. In fact, they are no more than competent".

I'll take that chair next to you, Jerry. We may get to like it in this old folks home......

[Jerry Oz]

Oh man, I hope I haven't become my dad...

You know, I'd be better about today's popular music if I didn't feel that there's a wizard behind the curtain telling everybody what they should like. I'd prefer people to hear the music, think about it and go out and purchase it to support the artist. Instead, I'm being spoon fed who the next hot thing is supposed to be. I wonder if payola laws apply to gossip shows? I'm pretty sure they do not and I'm always amazed at how they know which will be the next hot song or video.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, the cynical hype takes away all the spontaneous enjoyment of discovery.

As when I first heard, for example, the early Motown records, I still like to feel that I have found something which instantly impresses me, even if I may be in the minority. It then becomes an extra delight to learn that a lot of others are enjoying that same discovery, too.

These days, the money thrown into projects leaves me with the feeling that it now works the other way around - and that I'm simply following a crowd who are, as you say, being spoon fed.

It's not a feeling which leaves me feeling comfortable but, instead, rather remote and emotionally isolated.

[Jerry Oz]

Your post takes me back quite a few years. Between the late '70s and late '80s, I'd make a regular visit to record stores every pay day and buy 2-6 albums or cassettes. One of the singular joys was trying to purchase at least one record each week by someone that I never heard of, just to see if I liked what they'd invested their dreams into. I had a pretty good track record, mostly by recognizing when my favorite producers took on new and unknown acts, but there were a few dogs in there. Now, 30 years later, I have almost as much joy in digitizing some of those songs as I did hearing them the first time and part of that joy is due to the fact that nobody else really gave them a chance.

[westgrandboulevard]

If everyone who regularly posts here on SDF were to confirm their favourite Motown singles or albums through the years, I expect many of the titles submitted would never have featured among the biggest sellers.

I hope the young who now download tracks get the same excitement as I did, hearing new releases. While I miss that high feeling, I still find that a recently heard track can repeatedly go around in my head, just like the old days.

[Jerry Oz]

I seldom listen to any new music anymore... That's terrible for me [[again: Have I become my dad...?!) With that said, I love the song "Royals" by Lorde. It's the closest thing to powerful that I've allowed myself to admit hearing in years and it goes through my head frequently. Perhaps I need to get off of the rocking chair, do a little research and find myself. With that being said, I'm probably going to find that I enjoy more alt-rock than any modern Pop or what passes for R&B these days.

[westgrandboulevard]

I might find more in new music if I could just feel I'm listening to real instruments.

Real instruments + Real vocal talent, which moves me = Real enjoyment

[Jerry Oz]

And then there's the concept of having the "singer" perform individual lines dozens of times and having the producer pick and choose which snippets he'll put in the song. Some artists don't even sing the song all the way through on their records and only hear it for the first time after the true artist - the producer - works his magic.

Something is wrong with that...

And then there is also Autotune to consider...