Just a chime....or??

[Jerry Oz]

Ain't that the truth? It's much better because she thought of me when making it, so I'd never complain... Just make jokes about it.

[Jerry Oz]

Ain't that the truth? It's much better because she thought of me when making it, so I'd never complain... I'd rather just make jokes about it. BTW: I may have exaggerated a little bit...

[westgrandboulevard]

Well of course you might be exaggerating a bit Jerry, as it's plain you're just joking. There is plenty of room here for a little humour. If your wife knows you joke about her cooking and doesn't mind, that seems fair. I suspect she is probably a very good cook - so you can both feel comfortable with jokes about it.

It reminds me of those old comedy routines, where comedians joke about their wife, or mother-in-law - but who, in reality, are very often devoted to both.

[Jerry Oz]

"Who was that lady that I saw you with last night?"
"That was no lady. That was my wife!"

[[Never gets old...)

[westgrandboulevard]

"It's been a dreadful week, and now my wife has run away with the milkman.

I shall miss him...."

[Jerry Oz]

Or another classic [[thanks to Henny Youngman): "A man confronted me in an alley. He pulled out a gun and and said 'Your money or your life'. I said, 'Take my wife, please!'"

[westgrandboulevard]

That reminds me of that Bette Midler/Danny DeVito movie, 'Ruthless People'

[Jerry Oz]

I remember paying to see it way back when but I haven't seen it since the '80s. I need to watch it again.

[westgrandboulevard]

I enjoy listening to Bette Midler, but I do also enjoy her films.

Unless the part requires otherwise, 'The Divine Miss M' exudes good-natured charm and pizzazz, with the added distinction of those unusually humorous eyes. A star of the 'old school' , I'd say.

[Jerry Oz]

She's one of those people who, until you think about it, you feel as if you actually are well acquainted with. I'd be surprised to find out that the personality you see on stage and in film wasn't at least 95% who she really is. She's a unique talent, to say the least. One of my favorite songs is Cole Porter's "Miss Otis Regrets", which is typically a sad and emotional tune. Ms. Midler actually made it fun[[!). I'd be mad at anybody else for doing that to that song.

[westgrandboulevard]

Sadly, can't see that video Jerry, as it's blocked here in UK. But I have to agree very much with your opening sentence, as it is almost identical to one I deleted from my original post, simply in an effort to keep it more succinct.

Bette can be extremely moving yet without ever becoming maudlin. I think her version of John Prine's 'Hello In There' is a masterpiece.

[Jerry Oz]

I just listened to it and you're right. That is a beautiful song; the kind that I probably will play often enough to learn the lyrics so I can sing it in my car or shower. What better example for the point we made about live entertainers? Can you imagine a Bette Midler show where she's lip synching? Can you imagine "Hello In There" sang with AutoTune? Or to make my point: If Bette Midler opened a show for Madonna [[God forbid), I'd probably throw up during the headliner's act and demand half of my money back.

[westgrandboulevard]

The key is being able to spot what we feel is outstandingly good and positive among all that isn't.

I never quite understand why people want to sit around, and just criticise this or that, instead of just homing in on what they feel is good, and quietly valuing it.

Madonna undoubtedly has many many fans, and yes,there is/was a certain catch in her singing voice which I think is attractive. I'm prepared to accept that she's probably much, much nicer in reality than she appears to me...

But, 'image' wise, Bette seems warm and real,and wears her 'knowing' look with easy humour. Bette is lovable.

Madonna seems cool, almost to the point of appearing cold and contrived, and wears her 'knowing' look with little if any humour at all, all the while working very hard at it, like an athlete. For that, Madonna is admirable.

In your imaginary concert, where Bette opened for Madonna, I'd be quite happy to leave at the interval and go home.

[Jerry Oz]

I didn't mean to criticize her on a personal level at all. I just recalled seeing her Super Bowl halftime show a couple of years ago and it was everything that would turn me off in a "live" act. I respect her for forging a career and an image that evolved constantly and being one of the biggest and most well-received artists 30 years after I picked up her initial LP at a campus record store, took it home and thought to myself "it's too bad nobody's listening to this."

I saw her first album in DJ stores for at least four months before I purchased it. I wasn't a big Jellybean Benitez fan, but he's kind of the reason I gave it a listen. The next thing I knew, she made it to MTV and that was that. However, I haven't liked much of what she's done for the last couple of decades. It's amazing how much image sells when talent is lacking. But that's the way it's always been. That's the main reason I want to see "20 Feet From Stardom".

By the way, I should temper my criticism. Any popular artist that I may not appreciate is only popular because soemone else is. So, as they say: Opinions are like buttholes. We all have one but think everyone else's is the one that stinks.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, that's indeed true. Success does speak for itself, there's no real arguing with it, and so much more involved than is obvious by simply viewing the end result. Thank goodness there's plenty of choice in entertainment, and for all tastes but yes, it's also true that the most iconic and publicised images do loom largest.

[Jerry Oz]

Man, you and I agree on a lot of things. I recall the year that Denzel Washington had what I thought was one of the best on-screen performances I've seen in "The Hurricane". That same year, Kevin Spacey was the hero of American college students for his performance in "American Beauty", which was understated to the point of not acting at all. The undercurrent convinced the AMPAS that Spacey should get the award for best actor to my chagrin. I asked an acquaintance why someone should get an Oscar for essentially not acting and the response was "you have to understand what he was doing." Alas, the cult of personality is a great influence on opinions.

[westgrandboulevard]

What's that old saying : "Great minds think alike" and then there's the flipside phrase "Fools seldom differ" - !

Since both valuations seem rather extreme, I'd like to think simple common sense is being used, when in agreement

PS I've long felt that the public will buy a top selling record when it's number one simply because it's number one, and not necessarily because they really like it - or go out to see a movie simply because the reviews say it is good - or conversely, stay away because the critics suggest it's a flop. There's nothing wrong of course with being open-minded and giving something a try, but the majority of the general public [[which includes me) just wants to be entertained, and en masse, I guess, are not particularly selective.

[Jerry Oz]

Great points. Which explain why I can pan an Oscar-winning performance for "American Beauty" while holding my breath for next year's release of the reimagined "Godzilla". I'm such a snob about such things that I look down on myself at times. Or, I would if I was somebody else.

[westgrandboulevard]

Ha! Is there really anyone in the world truly in the position to look down on you? Other people might be tempted to take a sideways look at you, perhaps in puzzlement [[I have to say Godzilla just isn't for me), but no reason why it sometimes should not be in admiration, too LOL

[Jerry Oz]

We're all who we are. And we know who and what we like. I'm at a loss to find anyone close to me who shares my love for Chinese [[and increasingly Korean) cinema. I admit that I have a hard time with British films. I had to read the subtitles for "Sexy Beast" and "Wind That Shakes the Barley" because the British and Irish accents were too strong for my American ears. With that said, those are two of the most inspiring films in the last 20 years. We know what we like.

And my fascination with Godzilla is based upon chancing upon a classic "Godzilla vs. the Thing [[Mothra)" when I was about 10 years old. I want the wonderment and excitement of being 10 again, but I seldom can realize it. Music and film are only exceptional when they reach on some emotional level. It can be the dumbest movie or the silliest song, it doesn't matter, we know what we like...

[westgrandboulevard]

Very true. It's only ever a problem when we just can't find what we like...

[Jerry Oz]

Like when I visit my parents, who have 300 cable television channels, yet are usually watching the local broadcast stations.

[westgrandboulevard]

It's one way of avoiding all those endless repeats

[144man]

I find I have to turn the subtitles on when watching US series on TV. There is an increasing tendency for young American actors to mumble.

[Jerry Oz]

I use them for every show, anyway. I have a problem with high pitches, especially some women's voices. That trained me well for watching foreign films, which I prefer to watch in their natural language.

[westgrandboulevard]

You're meaning you miss some higher frequency sounds, Jerry?

[Jerry Oz]

Yah. I've had that problem since at least 2nd grade. I should have sprung for hearing aids a few years ago but I've an inkling that I don't want to hear most of what I'm missing [[conversation-wise). I think it might bug others more than me, though because I tend to EQ my music with a little more treble than most probably like.

[westgrandboulevard]

I seem to think that's exactly how Motown produced their 45s!

I've always been pitched 'high'. Now I'm older, some at least of the lower sounds seem not quite so distinct. Some of that may be because I'm intent on something, then somebody says something to me, and I say "Sorry?". Then my brain tells me, correctly, what they've just said! Delayed reaction...

I have to concentrate when in conversation, particularly in crowded places, coffee shops with lots of glass where the acoustics are 'sharp', and also where enunciation of other people is less than clear - i.e. mumbling, which often occurs in TV and movie work, when they're using 'natural' sound. Find I'm not getting it when the actual TV volume is at the usual level.

Most of the time I've fine, even with tinnitis, which came on full-time after I had my ears syringed in my mid-40s. A constant, ringing whistle. Notice it more when I'm tired. Not really a problem, and my hearing was OK when I had it tested, but the whistling distracts.

[Jerry Oz]

I've had tinnitus for years. Sometimes it gets loud enough to be a distraction but most of the time, it is just something that's there and easy enough to ignore. I'm with you on the mumbling and crowds, as well. The thing that bugs me most though, is when I am at a movie and it is so loud, I'm uncomfortable but has muttered lines that I can't even make out. How can it be so loud and so hard to understand, sometimes in the same scenes? I've had others complain about that, though.

[westgrandboulevard]

That's exactly my own experience!

I can pump up the volume, then find it too loud, but still can't make out some of the lines. And when you're sat there, brain trying to process what has just been said, the next line or two is often missed. And then I start to get restless.....

Not wanting to start a war, but when I listen to some of the singers, they slur their words. For me, it's great for the rhythm, but not so great for the actual meaning. A lot of Stevie Wonder's recordings from 70s to present day leave me slightly at a loss, although his voice is great, when judged as another instrument, simply because he 'swallows' many of the lyrics.

When The Supremes became so popular, Diana Ross' voice came over the radio loud and clear, as also did her enunciation [[particularly on the endings of her words - for instance " I Ammmm", when many others will enunciate the words as "I Yam").

Diana would at times even slightly over-emphasise [[[[as when she seemed to be adopting phrasing used by other singers) but Jean Terrell - great voice, but not always crystal clear lyrics to me.

Probably just my 'pitch', but couldn't help noticing. And never had any problems with Gladys Knight - lovely warm contralto singing voice, but still very clear diction.

[arrr&bee]

Hey westgrand,some singers do slur,but then others are just trying to pronounce
[listen to some early stax recordings]and then again some lyrics just make no sense anyhow!

[westgrandboulevard]

I've noticed on some of the early Motown recordings where the singer says 'aks' instead of 'ask', and have always assumed it's a regional thing.

I don't give any time to lyrics which make no sense - I'd be happier just listening to the instruments

[Jerry Oz]

Curiously, I understand Stevie Wonder clearly but not some female singers. Diana Ross' voice has always been crystal clear to me, however.

When I was in high school, I had so many people ask me "why do black people say 'axe' instead of 'ask'?" that I made it a particular point to pronounce that word the way it says in the dictionary [[usually, they were trying to be buttholes by asking).

I appreciate the chance to answer it for someone who is sincere in asking [[thanks!). It is a dialectic pronunciation that you'll find is in many regions of the US. So much so, that I never notice it until someone brings it up. It's as common as droppin' your "g" or bringing "ain't" into a proper conversation [[look at the first post on this page).

[westgrandboulevard]

Here in England alone, let alone the UK, there are still many regional differences, despite being a comparatively small country. The typical accents vary from warm and soft to quite hard and emphatic, and even residents from other UK regions will sometimes struggle to understand what is being said.

Nationally, pronounciation of many words is often inconsistent.

I have always pronounced 'ask' as 'ahsk','bath' as 'bahth', and 'grass' as 'grahss'. In other regions, many would pronounce those words as 'assk','batthh' and 'grasss'. But then, for 'plastic' they might say 'plasstic' and, instead of 'plahstic', so would I!

For the generation above me, the Queen's English was the ideal. Taking it to an extreme, some would emulate the rather stilted, cut-glass tones of the 'upper classes'. Over the decades, the differences have become blurred. Even the nuances in the Queen's present speaking voice have softened.

Generally, the grammar and speech used by BBC news broadcasts is the nearest to standard English. In that context, dropping the 'g' or use of "ain't" would technically be incorrect, I imagine - but in everyday colloquial English , commonplace. "Ain't" is perhaps more commonly used in US.

[Jerry Oz]

I remember reading about the "H" test that kids were given in the playgrounds of Northern Ireland. The kids made new students pronounce the letter, knowing that Catholic kids said "haich" whereas Protestant children said "aich" [[or vice versa). Suffice it to say, there were consequences for saying it the wrong way.

[westgrandboulevard]

Language is always evolving. Some new words I'm happy to use, while others I'm not.

I was always taught that 'H' was pronounced 'aitch', and still believe it should be - but 'haitch' is indeed used increasingly and quite commonly now, especially by younger people.

I believe the alternative pronounciation has been in use for a long time in Ireland, so your story does seem to confirm that might be true.

And if I were to say 'aitch' in a broad Scottish accent, I'd probably pronounce it as 'itch' - LOL!

[Jerry Oz]

I'm a snob about language in many regards. I hate to hear people use the now popular "conversate" in any manner. "We need to conversate." Ugggh. I also am bugged by the fact that "loaned" is apparently the popular choice over "lent", which was the word that I was taught. The biggest of my irrational language pet peeves is when people try to be proper and say "he gave it to Harold and I". Such a simple rule that is increasingly ignored in the U.S. If he gave it to me and he gave it to Harold, then he gave it to Harold and me. Okay. I feel better now...

[westgrandboulevard]

Although I was considered to be quite bright at school [[but then proceeded to spend most of my time failing to live up to my teachers' expectations!) I was always shaky on the technical terms of language.

I picked up a lot simply by reading and with spoken usage - and also by correction. If someone was thoughtful and kindly, I could learn much from them, without feeling I was silly.

I do not feel you are a snob Jerry as, in your responses, you don't appear to put people down [[perhaps denigrate is a suitable word...), if they differ from your opinion. That would be my definition of a snob, and usually it would seem to disguise some form of underlying insecurity.

I'm not too familiar with the word 'conversate'. It sounds a tad clumsy, somewhat contrived, but I understand its meaning. Perhaps it is just a fashion? And yes, borrowed, loaned and lent are indeed all subtly different.

Again, yes, examples such as 'Harold and I' are falling out of favour, as it now sounds too stilted, too pretentious. It might still be used in the written word, where appropriate, but not in spoken language.

One of my own little corrections [[and I still find myself saying it when I'm also thinking about something else...) is that something is similiar to, but also different from other things. 'Different to' is very often used, as is 'Different than'.

The main object in language is to reach an understanding, and some will simply say the details don't matter, or "Well, you know what I mean". Taken literally, use of incorrect language can inadvertently mislead, and sometimes lead to unfortunate consequences, so it's always going to be a little tricky....LOL

[Jerry Oz]

Good points, all. One that I'm frequently guilty of is "whether or not". And I've been avoiding "yet" in my e-mails because it is almost always redundant. Ah, but why should I point out the splinter in my brother's eye when there is a beam in my own?

[144man]

At school, we were taught that the use of "ain't" and "haitch" was uneducated.

Grammatical errors do not worry me too much as long as they do not confuse the meaning, though I am a bit sad that adjectives are being used incorrectly instead of the adverbial form ending in -ly.

I am more concerned by the fact that young people seem to have a smaller vocabulary, resulting in them not being able to express subtle shades of meaning.

[Jerry Oz]

I think that it's important to be able to communicate well. By "well", I have to consider the source, so if I have a problem with something that someone says or writes on a technical level, it's typically because that person knows better and got lazy [[in my opinion). I work around people who say "ain't" all the time and speak in a manner not to be heard in the board room, and that's no problem for me. My wife sometimes gives me a dirty look if I slip into "work mode" at home and talk more like my co-workers than I do like myself.

It just bugs me to hear professionals talking in an unprofessional manner. A few years ago, I heard a news anchorwoman describe a crime suspect as being a "dark-complected Hispanic man". I don't know if there's an acceptable use of "complected", but how hard would it have been to write "Hispanic man with a dark complexion"? That's when my funky inner snob comes out, not when I hear the same thing from someone on the street.

[westgrandboulevard]

True Jerry [[answering your earlier post) - on reflection, the word 'whether' should suffice alone, although in conversation I'm sure I do say 'whether or not'.

Hadn't really thought too much about 'yet' - but on that subject, I'm never sure if the best is yet to come, or if the best has yet to come. Both seem in common use.

Agreed 144man, 'ain't' and 'haitch' were indeed frowned upon in my own youth. My Mum didn't receive the depth of education I was offered, and wanted better for her children. She insisted to this tiny tot that I not call farm animals 'moo cow' and 'baa lamb' - they were cows and lambs/sheep, so best to get it right from the start. I slightly cringe now at hearing even professionals who care for cats, dogs and other animals describing them as 'boys' and girls'. They have their own identity and dignity. Why not 'male' and female', if not 'tom and queen', 'dog and bitch' etc....we have such a vast number of words from which to choose.

[[Jerry : 'from which to choose' - that sounds old-fashioned, maybe? Probably we'd all now say 'to choose from' - ?)

And [[in my mind, I can hear my English teacher say 'now, you don't start a new sentence with the word 'and' - !!), without ingratiating myself with anyone here, it's my experience that many an educated American is far more fluent in the English language than many born here in the UK, despite some of the obvious differences in terms used.

[Jerry Oz]

I don't know about that last point... But my complaint about "yet" is more based on the commonly used phrases like "he's not here, yet" or "I don't have it, yet". Sadly, as this conversation continues, I realize that many would have a lot of complaints about my own use of English.

[westgrandboulevard]

Use of the word 'yet' in that context would seem to imply that the subject of the enquiry is, at least, expected....

Thinking about it, maybe you mean the construction should be 'He's not yet here" or "I don't yet have it" - which also seem valid, even if they perhaps might be strictly incorrect in a technical sense....

How do you stand on "I haven't got it", as opposed to "I don't have it"...?

[Jerry Oz]

I prefer "I don't have it"; simpler is better. However, I know that I've used both of those to say the same thing. In my perfect world, no word would be used that isn't necessary. Therefore, "it isn't here yet" would become "it isn't here", which seems to say just as much. I'm cool with "they have yet to arrive" as opposed to "they haven't arrived", but I don't like "they haven't arrived yet". Tell me, doctor. Is there a pill that will help someone like me?

[westgrandboulevard]

No, patient correspondent, there is not. It's really all to do with one's expectation. Either the words satisfy, or they do not.

When they do not satisfy, even if using correct grammar, theemotional feeling of disappointment and irritation supersedes everything.

Happens to everyone. We all need that pill LOL

[144man]

You need to know what the rules are before breaking them. The great Anglican hymn "Jerusalem" begins "And did those feet in ancient times...?"; and Shakespeare often used the double negative. I believe on a forum we should be using conversational rather than written English, so I usually write "isn't" instead of "is not".

Grammar is largely arbitrary anyway, based on the grammar of classical Greek and Latin, sometimes resulting in ridiculous rules. I maintain that it has never been wrong to split the infinitive in English. You can't split the infinitive in other languages because it only consists of a single word. To extend this to English, where the infinitive consists of two words [[as in "to go") is stupid.

And why on earth can't a preposition be used to end a sentence with?

[144man]

I'm a snob about language in many regards. I hate to hear people use the now popular "conversate" in any manner. "We need to conversate." Ugggh. I also am bugged by the fact that "loaned" is apparently the popular choice over "lent", which was the word that I was taught. The biggest of my irrational language pet peeves is when people try to be proper and say "he gave it to Harold and I". Such a simple rule that is increasingly ignored in the U.S. If he gave it to me and he gave it to Harold, then he gave it to Harold and me. Okay. I feel better now...

There is a way to justify "to Harold and I", by making a comparison to [with[[?)] French, where they would say "Harold et moi" instead of "Harold et je". The argument would be that English usage now allows the use of the disjunctive form as an alternative to the objective case.

[westgrandboulevard]

Ending a sentence with a preposition? Happens all the time

On the subject of 'isn't' instead of 'is not' : I remember a note written on one of my school reports by my English teacher, also my form mistress. 'His work is spoiled by overuse of colloquialisms' but, to me in my teens, it was simply everyday language.....

[Jerry Oz]

A contraction is a colloquialism? Tough teacher! I use contractions all the time, whether speaking or writing. You guys are filling my head up with great stuff. I thought that I was alone in the world when it came to actually applying thought toward written and spoken words.

As for ending sentences with prepositions, I try hard to avoid the practice while remembering the Churchill response to it: "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.”