MS&S - the non-singles

[sup_fan]

we've talked a lot about Wheel, LYG. and LYG is one of my favorite recordings ever by the group. but the parent album Mary, Scherrie & Susaye is just a knock out! every track is sensational but it's also such an interesting and engaging album, start to finish.

the Billboard review wasn't the hottest though. It does call out a few other tracks like Don't Want To Be Tied Down and We Should Be Closer.

which is your fav track? on the DR Project website [[see link below) he speculates that Tied Down might have been a perfect lead single. What about the totally unique and intriguing Come Into My Life?



https://dianarossproject.wordpress.c...e-susaye-1976/

[jim aka jtigre99]

At the time, I thought MS&S was a great album that sounded contemporary and still had that Supreme style. I always liked Let Yourself Go much, much more than Driving Wheel. Scherrie Payne delivered some very strong performances and I also liked Tied down and Sweet Dream Machine. Come Into My Life showcased Susaye's unique voice very well. I disagree with his assessment of Mary's vocals as competent. Her voice was like a soft sensual carress and You Are The Heart of Me was quite good, although the "orgasm" in the center was not something I liked to be honest. The differences in Susaye and Mary were quite apparent in their duet We Should Be Closer Together rather than when she sang duets with Scherrie, Scherrie and Mary seemed to compliment each other. This is quite an overlooked work and I think was so promising of what the Supremes could have been going into the late 70s and early 80s. I think Scherrie is totally undervalued for her work as a Supreme, Susaye was quite the catalyst to help them go forward and Mary was always unfairly regarded in her vocals. Mary's warmth and love shined on leads and backgrounds, she was a major reason why I stayed loving the Supremes.

[REDHOT]

The Supremes Mary Scherrie Susaye album is so underrated, love the whole album.

[Spreadinglove21]

My favorites on the album are Sweet Dream Machine, Come Into My Life and We Should Be Closer Together. Don't have the liner notes in front of me, but I believe they share one thing in common--Dale Warren was the arranger on all of them. That being said, not sure any of them should have been singles sent to radio.

[Ollie9]

“Don’t Want To Be Tied Down” should undoubtedly have been the lead single. It contained all the right ingredients to be a hit. There are so many standout cuts on the album, but this is the one that should have led the charge.

[daviddh]

I thought it was a year ahead of its time.
I would have issued a few singles from HE and then unloaded MSS

Sweet dream machine
Let yourself go
You are the heart of me
Love I never knew you were so good....
Planned as a single but cancelled when MW went solo

[RanRan79]

I think I said it recently, that I'm just not into this album like a lot of the fans are. But I do have a couple cuts on it that I love:

"Driving Wheel"- excellent Scherrie vocal, excellent track. I love the energy.

"Dream Machine"- excellent vocals, track, lyrics, everything. It's a beautiful song.

"Let Yourself Go"- once again Scherrie outdoes herself. The song has a ton of energy and of all the songs on the album to be the group's last, I feel LYG was a perfect end, content wise.

"You Are the Heart of Me"- beautiful vocal by Mary. Like "Teardrops", I think Mary bested Dionne once again, for my taste. Only negative is Mary's moaning and I find Susaye a bit annoying toward the end also.

[RanRan79]

I wonder how different things may have been had HDH been able to reunite and produced the Supremes? I say that because I LOVE a lot of the stuff Lamont was producing for others and even himself during this time. With his ideas in the mix, maybe a sound more in line with the brand of Supremes could have been achieved and put the group back on top.

[sup_fan]

I think I said it recently, that I'm just not into this album like a lot of the fans are. But I do have a couple cuts on it that I love:

"Driving Wheel"- excellent Scherrie vocal, excellent track. I love the energy.

"Dream Machine"- excellent vocals, track, lyrics, everything. It's a beautiful song.

"Let Yourself Go"- once again Scherrie outdoes herself. The song has a ton of energy and of all the songs on the album to be the group's last, I feel LYG was a perfect end, content wise.

"You Are the Heart of Me"- beautiful vocal by Mary. Like "Teardrops", I think Mary bested Dionne once again, for my taste. Only negative is Mary's moaning and I find Susaye a bit annoying toward the end also.

interesting points Ran. see i think YATHOM just doesn't quite deliver. skipping the embarrasing moans lol, i'm not saying it's a bad song or a bad vocal. i just don't think it quite goes there. the unreleased version on the MW Anthology is closer to the mark. if you simply read the lyrics of the song, this is passion with a capital P. mary does a very good job but i don't know if there's quite enough passion in her voice to convey the feeling. the orgasm vocals was a cheap ploy IMO to put that level of passion and ecstasy into the tune. whereas just a touch more emotional connection with the actual lyrics would have been sufficient

in contrast, We Should Be Closer is a heartbreaking song and i think she perfectly captures a sense of loss. and again the unreleased version is even better.

[jobeterob]

Some hardcore fans seem to really appreciate this album a lot.

I think High Energy held much more promise although I don’t know if there were more singles there.

With High Energy there was hope - a modest hit and the album did much better than a lot of 70’s Supremes albums.

But MSS was a commercial dud - as I recall, it never charted in the Top 200 album chart. There was no future left and it made it pretty difficult to launch any solo career.

I wish Mary had stayed with the group and they could have got Jean Terrell back. Considering the lack of success after the 70’s, it couldn’t have been worse if they stayed together like Otis did with the Temptations. Mary could still have written her books, got her degree and pursued her other non musical endeavours.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Mary,Scherrie & Susaye did not hit the charts at all. It was a natural progression in sound and form from High Energy. The 2 albums were 2 different groupings. Mary, Scherrie & Cindy recorded most of High Energy and Susaye was overdubbed on a number of tracks, including the lead on the title song. High Energy had a more lush style that was similar to the Supremes but updated to the disco sound. MS&S was more progressive in its disco approach and featured all 3 more prominently in lead roles. It was almost like 2 different sounds, although MS&S clearly was a very strong album.
I do think Mary made the right choice, she didn't need to keep a continual succession of new group members going on as the Supremes. MS&S had so much potential but constantly dealing with everyone looking at the Supremes as a stepping stone had to wear on Mary. Mary staying and getting Jean Terrell back? No, just no. Jean did not really get along with Motown. If so, Motown would have offered her a solo deal when she decided to leave the group in 1973. They didn't. Her stint at A&M perhaps shows that Jean was not the easiest person to deal with from a record company point of view. Her coming back to the FLOs was interesting in that she didn't seem to be pushing her weight around as the lead on the last hits. Surely that was the issue with Mary who held a lot of power as the last original against Jean who felt it should have been her group. No, I don't see Mary and Jean working together in the Supremes in the late 70s and beyond, certainly Motown didn't hold any feelings for Jean coming back. I think it played out the way it should have. I do feel had Motown been aware of disco and how important MS&S could have been capturing that market, the group would have had much more well deserved success.

[sup_fan]

i agree that MS&S was a progression from HE, especially with the dance tracks of Wheel, LYG and Love I Never. IMO once Walking was recorded and everyone thought "wow" it was clear the Hollands had identified a sound for the Scherrie grouping. many of the tracks on Sup 75 were fine enough but rather generic. i could hear all sorts of groups and singers singing Where Do I Go From Here. same thing with a few HE tracks like Only You. good songs but i wouldn't say they'd yet discovered a "sound" for the Sups. but Walking really stepped out [[haha pun intended) on its own. this was more of a group recording, with the backing vocals playing a very key element in the song. there is a strong "you go girl" vibe which was a bit different than the standard disco song concept, it's a very catchy song with the Woo-hooo bit on the chorus being sung and easy to sing along with. another unique component is that there are actual verses with a bit of a story and a great melody.

LYG takes these elements and amps them up. the beat is strong, the Woo hoo element is still there. it also has solid and singable verses. plus with the whole "breakdown" ending the individual girls have the opportunity to ad lib and shine.

where MS&S breaks away from HE is with the more experimental album tracks. Sweet Dream, Come, We Should Be Closer. the producers had a clear understanding of Scherrie's and Mary's voices by this time and quickly started to explore what Susaye could do. While each woman had a lead line on Sweet, it's Scherrie's song overall and it's a great opportunity for her to do something other than a blasting, racing dance track. the subtleties of what she does is amazing. Come Into My Life is a truly odd track that just seems to work. Susaye does this sexy, pouty lead. like in HE, you have lyrics that are more lush and all but then contrasted with this kittenish pouty vocal. plus the tricks of merging her high notes into the synth vibe.

[RanRan79]

interesting points Ran. see i think YATHOM just doesn't quite deliver. skipping the embarrasing moans lol, i'm not saying it's a bad song or a bad vocal. i just don't think it quite goes there. the unreleased version on the MW Anthology is closer to the mark. if you simply read the lyrics of the song, this is passion with a capital P. mary does a very good job but i don't know if there's quite enough passion in her voice to convey the feeling. the orgasm vocals was a cheap ploy IMO to put that level of passion and ecstasy into the tune. whereas just a touch more emotional connection with the actual lyrics would have been sufficient

in contrast, We Should Be Closer is a heartbreaking song and i think she perfectly captures a sense of loss. and again the unreleased version is even better.

I guess it's just personal taste. I don't think a song like "Heart" needed much more than Mary gave it, similar to my thoughts on "A Heart Like Mine". I think Mary's mellow vocal on both convey the depth of the lyrics just as well as if she- or another singer- had more gusto in the delivery.

For whatever reason, "Closer Together" never pulled me in like some others, however, it is a beautifully done song and Mary sounds great. Might have been interesting to see how well it could have done as a single.

[RanRan79]

Take a listen to Lamont's Right There album from the same year. It's slick, sophisticated soul. Nothing too slow, nothing too fast. If the trio of HDH had been convinced to reunite for the Supremes, melding Lamont's arrangements and Brian and Eddie's experimentation could have been interesting. Of course by experimenting I don't mean anything too disco'y or futuristic. The Hollands were a different team without Lamont. I really think they needed him to add the magic that was mostly missing, the magic that existed when they were producing for the original Supremes and others during the 60s.

[sup_fan]

I guess it's just personal taste. I don't think a song like "Heart" needed much more than Mary gave it, similar to my thoughts on "A Heart Like Mine". I think Mary's mellow vocal on both convey the depth of the lyrics just as well as if she- or another singer- had more gusto in the delivery.

For whatever reason, "Closer Together" never pulled me in like some others, however, it is a beautifully done song and Mary sounds great. Might have been interesting to see how well it could have done as a single.

and with You Are The Heart, i'm giving it an A- and referring to minor things that might have bumped it even higher. definitely splitting hairs here as it's a very good song

[reese]

Take a listen to Lamont's Right There album from the same year. It's slick, sophisticated soul. Nothing too slow, nothing too fast. If the trio of HDH had been convinced to reunite for the Supremes, melding Lamont's arrangements and Brian and Eddie's experimentation could have been interesting. Of course by experimenting I don't mean anything too disco'y or futuristic. The Hollands were a different team without Lamont. I really think they needed him to add the magic that was mostly missing, the magic that existed when they were producing for the original Supremes and others during the 60s.

Lamont did some nice work with Aretha around that time, on her SWEET PASSION album.

[Bluebrock]

Lamont did some nice work with Aretha around that time, on her SWEET PASSION album.

Lamont's solo albums in the 70's and early 80's were generally excellent. I never tire of listening to them. I agree with you regarding the work he did with Aretha on Sweet Passion. Lamont was the outstanding talent in the HDH team in my opinion. His presence was sorely missed on the 70's Supremes recordings.

[gman]

I like HIGH ENERGY better....it is, with FLOY JOY, the only LP I love every cut on...

We needed High Energy to be a single release, or keep You're What's Missing as a "A" side.

I love the LP version of DRIVING WHEEL...the hand percussion, the pounding acoustic piano, Scherries fall behind and catch up lead vocal...and the harmonies...LET YOURSELF GO was spellbinding...every time I heard it played it was slowed down slightly..I do not like LOVE I NEVER KNEW all that much...like This is Why I Believe In You, it goes on entirely too long and gets annoyingly monotonous. I like the MS&S LP...folks I played any of the 3 Scherrie LP's for at the time couldn't believe it was the Supremes...but my closest group of friends were hippy-guitar rock freaks...the acquaintances were the club hoppers and even tho I spent less time with them, I heard some good disco.

[sup_fan]

i've always wished Scherrie had gotten a big, warm, lush ballad during her Supremes years. yes i love Mary on those but i'd love to hear the broader range and capabilities of Scherrie. just to hear how she would have done it

[Ollie9]

i've always wished Scherrie had gotten a big, warm, lush ballad during her Supremes years. yes i love Mary on those but i'd love to hear the broader range and capabilities of Scherrie. just to hear how she would have done it

As far as recording was concerned, perhaps the mistake was in not handing all leads to Scherrie. She could certainly shine on all formats, and might who have helped them establish a sound that was more familiar to the general public.

[RanRan79]

i've always wished Scherrie had gotten a big, warm, lush ballad during her Supremes years. yes i love Mary on those but i'd love to hear the broader range and capabilities of Scherrie. just to hear how she would have done it

I agree. I think Scherrie would have done a better job with "Where Is It I Belong" than Mary did, in the sense that the song wouldn't have sounded so depressing. Mary's laidback style was excellent on a lot of ballad material, but I think this is one where Scherrie's more vibrant sound could have saved the cut. I'm sure Scherrie would have knocked "Teardrops" out of the park, but I'm not convinced she would have done a better job than Mary did. I think "Boat" and "Lose You" would have benefitted more from Scherrie's style than Mary's.

I think the "problem" for the producers might have been Scherrie's approach. The only three ballads I can think of off the top of my head that I've heard Scherrie do are "A House Is Not a Home" with Glass House, and the live versions of "Maybe This Time" and "Touch". "Seed of Love"- not a ballad- is a great example of Scherrie's range when she isn't going full throttle. That's actually a pretty rare, toned down vocal from Scherrie. I get the impression that Scherrie preferred to blow the roof off of whatever she was singing, fast or slow. It's hard to hear "blow the roof off" in most of the ballads that the group recorded during Scherrie's tenure, but may have likely been her approach if handed the lead. The producers may not have wanted that and may have felt like they couldn't achieve the desired result with Scherrie vs Mary. Just speculation on my part, of course.

[RanRan79]

As far as recording was concerned, perhaps the mistake was in not handing all leads to Scherrie. She could certainly shine on all formats, and might who have helped them establish a sound that was more familiar to the general public.

So relegate Mary back to backing vocalist only? I don't think this move was necessary. The group was going to always be identified with Diana, and to a lesser extent, Jean, likely because she immediately replaced Diana and the subsequent singles were hits, and Jean's voice was on brand for the group. Without a monster hit song, it didn't matter who was leading the Supremes, or if everyone was taking turns, the group just wasn't the hot entity it should have been. And it could have been that with all three women doing leads if the material was A+ and sadly, most of it was not. Besides, make Scherrie the sole lead singer and then what does Mary do when Scherrie decides she's had enough and wants to be on her own, look for yet another woman using the group to launch out? Yikes.

[sup_fan]

I agree. I think Scherrie would have done a better job with "Where Is It I Belong" than Mary did, in the sense that the song wouldn't have sounded so depressing. Mary's laidback style was excellent on a lot of ballad material, but I think this is one where Scherrie's more vibrant sound could have saved the cut. I'm sure Scherrie would have knocked "Teardrops" out of the park, but I'm not convinced she would have done a better job than Mary did. I think "Boat" and "Lose You" would have benefitted more from Scherrie's style than Mary's.

I think the "problem" for the producers might have been Scherrie's approach. The only three ballads I can think of off the top of my head that I've heard Scherrie do are "A House Is Not a Home" with Glass House, and the live versions of "Maybe This Time" and "Touch". "Seed of Love"- not a ballad- is a great example of Scherrie's range when she isn't going full throttle. That's actually a pretty rare, toned down vocal from Scherrie. I get the impression that Scherrie preferred to blow the roof off of whatever she was singing, fast or slow. It's hard to hear "blow the roof off" in most of the ballads that the group recorded during Scherrie's tenure, but may have likely been her approach if handed the lead. The producers may not have wanted that and may have felt like they couldn't achieve the desired result with Scherrie vs Mary. Just speculation on my part, of course.

but what about Scherrie's lead parts on Sweet Dream Machine? yes she does some more powerful singing in it but her opening verse is hushed, controlled. again, i think there were times all of the women could have recorded songs not necessarily in their "wheel house." like Mary on You're What's Missing - sounds great, proving Mary didn't have to ONLY sing ballads.

[sup_fan]

So relegate Mary back to backing vocalist only? I don't think this move was necessary. The group was going to always be identified with Diana, and to a lesser extent, Jean, likely because she immediately replaced Diana and the subsequent singles were hits, and Jean's voice was on brand for the group. Without a monster hit song, it didn't matter who was leading the Supremes, or if everyone was taking turns, the group just wasn't the hot entity it should have been. And it could have been that with all three women doing leads if the material was A+ and sadly, most of it was not. Besides, make Scherrie the sole lead singer and then what does Mary do when Scherrie decides she's had enough and wants to be on her own, look for yet another woman using the group to launch out? Yikes.

i agree that going back to the formula of just 1 lead singer wasn't the right direction. mary had started to emerge during the Jean years, at least getting some recognition. but i liked this idea of MSC and later MSS where there was much more sharing of the lead role. it changed up the group dynamic and gave it something new and fresh

now that being said, i think it went too far in the % for Mary. Scherrie ended up doing maybe 1/3 of the live act and about 50% of the recorded material. and in interviews and all, scherrie was very much in the background. of the 3, Scherrie's was the most commercial voice. she should have been the primary vocal on singles, but not necessarily exclusive. having lines or even secondary verses that M and C/Susaye did would have continued this group concept. but people do need to be able to identify with a voice. and in addition, if they're hearing Scherrie on the record, they want to get to know her too. having her be more prominent of a member.

[Ollie9]

So relegate Mary back to backing vocalist only? I don't think this move was necessary. The group was going to always be identified with Diana, and to a lesser extent, Jean, likely because she immediately replaced Diana and the subsequent singles were hits, and Jean's voice was on brand for the group. Without a monster hit song, it didn't matter who was leading the Supremes, or if everyone was taking turns, the group just wasn't the hot entity it should have been. And it could have been that with all three women doing leads if the material was A+ and sadly, most of it was not. Besides, make Scherrie the sole lead singer and then what does Mary do when Scherrie decides she's had enough and wants to be on her own, look for yet another woman using the group to launch out? Yikes.

It was Motowns idea when they wanted to reform the Supremes that Scherrie handle all leads having the most commercial sounding voice. That actually made good business sense, as well as providing the group with a continuity of sound they could best be identified with. Had Scherrie then decided to leave it would be as Diana once said ....Next.
I disagree about the quality of material being recorded as the 76/7 albums contained some great stuff.

[blackguy69]

That was in the 80’s not in 75

It was Motowns idea when they wanted to reform the Supremes that Scherrie handle all leads. As she had the most commercial sounding voice that actually made good business sense, as well as providing the group with a continuity of sound they could best be identified with.
I disagree about the quality of material being recorded as the 76/7 albums contained some great stuff.
If Scherrie had then decided to leave it’s as as Diana once said ....... Next.

[sup_fan]

That was in the 80’s not in 75

actually i believe it was both times

when J and L left, mary writes in Sup Faith that she wanted to be lead for the group and motown said no. but if she could find another girl, they could split

then later in the book in the early 80s, motown was supposedly interested in reforming the Sups with MSC. mary said one condition would be that she be the lead singer and she says motown wanted Scherrie again

[RanRan79]

but what about Scherrie's lead parts on Sweet Dream Machine? yes she does some more powerful singing in it but her opening verse is hushed, controlled. again, i think there were times all of the women could have recorded songs not necessarily in their "wheel house." like Mary on You're What's Missing - sounds great, proving Mary didn't have to ONLY sing ballads.

Well I pointed out Scherrie's singing on "Seed of Love", which is more toned down than what she did on "Dream". I think we have to accept the possibility that Scherrie preferred to sing a certain way. It's rumored that Diana wasn't crazy about belting, even though she could. Perhaps Scherrie wasn't crazy about toning down her approach, even though she could. I have both of the Glass House albums and the only ballad I can think of that Scherrie sang was "A House Is Not a Home". So even then there was something in the mix- whether from the producer's angle or Scherrie's or both- that up tempo was the way to go with Scherrie.

Regarding the Supremes, Scherrie's vocals on "Touch" and "Maybe This Time" are fantastic. I imagine if she had been given a ballad lead, it might not have been the kind of ballad that is lush, but instead would have been a big, soaring power ballad. Would've been interesting to hear Scherrie under Masser's direction, particularly in the 80s.

[RanRan79]

i agree that going back to the formula of just 1 lead singer wasn't the right direction. mary had started to emerge during the Jean years, at least getting some recognition. but i liked this idea of MSC and later MSS where there was much more sharing of the lead role. it changed up the group dynamic and gave it something new and fresh

now that being said, i think it went too far in the % for Mary. Scherrie ended up doing maybe 1/3 of the live act and about 50% of the recorded material. and in interviews and all, scherrie was very much in the background. of the 3, Scherrie's was the most commercial voice. she should have been the primary vocal on singles, but not necessarily exclusive. having lines or even secondary verses that M and C/Susaye did would have continued this group concept. but people do need to be able to identify with a voice. and in addition, if they're hearing Scherrie on the record, they want to get to know her too. having her be more prominent of a member.

Lol Again, the Supremes are the only artists where fans ever talk about a "commercial" voice. What does this even mean? If you think about all the hit songs and artists that have been in the public eye for the last 65 years, can you really put them all in one box called "commercial"? I can't. I don't think the public ever even thought about that kind of thing. That's not to say that there aren't voices that seem in a class of their own. Diana is certainly one and she didn't really sound like anyone else. But her voice was the lead on seven or eight flops before finding a place in the public's heart, and then the lead on several flops during the DRATS period and her solo career. Scherrie sang on most of her Supremes' tenure singles and only one did anything worth mentioning, so how "commercial" was it exactly?

I believe back then the only thing that mattered to the public was that the song was good and the voice was good. They could have cared less about anything else. How many people turned the station saying "Oh no, that voice, not commercial enough for me"?

[RanRan79]

It was Motowns idea when they wanted to reform the Supremes that Scherrie handle all leads having the most commercial sounding voice. That actually made good business sense, as well as providing the group with a continuity of sound they could best be identified with. Had Scherrie then decided to leave it would be as Diana once said ....Next.
I disagree about the quality of material being recorded as the 76/7 albums contained some great stuff.

I agree that the albums contained some great stuff, and I do think there was a hit or three among them. [[I do believe "Teardrops" could have been a hit single, I really do.) But how many "Lady Marmalade"s did they have? "Best of My Love"? The Supremes needed a monster hit. I don't know that anything they recorded fit that description.

Keep in mind, the Supremes with Scherrie weren't your grandmother's Supremes. By the time of Scherrie, the Supremes image was firmly established in the public's mind and that image included Diana Ross, vocally and visually. Anything else, by this point, was a group of women singing under a familiar name. They weren't going to be posted on the average teenager's wall. There's a chance the average teenager wouldn't have even flocked to their shows, no matter how good the music or big the hits. These Supremes were grown women- one of them a wife and mother- and they were never going to be marketed like they had been in 1965. If Diana Ross wasn't singing the lead, the Supremes at this point could only hope to get by if the single they released was undeniably fantastic, that made everybody and their mama run out to buy it and request it on the airwaves.

In reality the public didn't care about Scherrie, or Susaye, or Mary singing lead. That proof is in the sinking singles. In our world of forum speculation and what ifs, I opine that the only thing the Supremes could do to maintain relevancy is songs kicking butt in competition with other releases at the time and the public wouldn't have cared which lady was singing it. This was the era of the disco "Star Wars" theme. Nobody in the 70s cared about lead singing.

[jobeterob]

It’s hard for me to understand how we went from the relative promise of High Energy to an album that went thud

It seems to me the Supremes were suddenly very old and the interest in them collapsed; the comeback just totally fizzled

[gman]

It’s hard for me to understand how we went from the relative promise of High Energy to an album that went thud

It seems to me the Supremes were suddenly very old and the interest in them collapsed; the comeback just totally fizzled

IMHO....the LIVE TV work was not good. I am sure I am not the only die hard fan that was going WTF??? every time I saw MSS perform live on TV...visually, everything about it was awkward ....and musically the LIVE fast overly brassy arrangements [[that were the curse of every line up from '65 on) coupled with the sonic improvising was not pleasant either....the exception? the UDO clip of Walk Away ..it is wonderful.

[Ollie9]

I agree that the albums contained some great stuff, and I do think there was a hit or three among them. [[I do believe "Teardrops" could have been a hit single, I really do.) But how many "Lady Marmalade"s did they have? "Best of My Love"? The Supremes needed a monster hit. I don't know that anything they recorded fit that description.

Keep in mind, the Supremes with Scherrie weren't your grandmother's Supremes. By the time of Scherrie, the Supremes image was firmly established in the public's mind and that image included Diana Ross, vocally and visually. Anything else, by this point, was a group of women singing under a familiar name. They weren't going to be posted on the average teenager's wall. There's a chance the average teenager wouldn't have even flocked to their shows, no matter how good the music or big the hits. These Supremes were grown women- one of them a wife and mother- and they were never going to be marketed like they had been in 1965. If Diana Ross wasn't singing the lead, the Supremes at this point could only hope to get by if the single they released was undeniably fantastic, that made everybody and their mama run out to buy it and request it on the airwaves.

In reality the public didn't care about Scherrie, or Susaye, or Mary singing lead. That proof is in the sinking singles. In our world of forum speculation and what ifs, I opine that the only thing the Supremes could do to maintain relevancy is songs kicking butt in competition with other releases at the time and the public wouldn't have cared which lady was singing it. This was the era of the disco "Star Wars" theme. Nobody in the 70s cared about lead singing.

With as you say the image of the Supremes forever associated with Diana Ross, the group might have been better served in finding a replacement with a similar look and style.
Was it perhaps Scherrie’s style of voice that led to the public becoming disenchanted with the group?. Might “Heart Do The Walking” or “Let Yourself Go” have proved more successful with a light and lilting lead vocal that would be forever associated with the name Supremes.......Food for thought.

[RanRan79]

With as you say the image of the Supremes forever associated with Diana Ross, the group might have been better served in finding a replacement with a similar look and style.
Was it perhaps Scherrie’s style of voice that led to the public becoming disenchanted with the group?. Might “Heart Do The Walking” or “Let Yourself Go” have proved more successful with a light and lilting lead vocal that would be forever associated with the name Supremes.......Food for thought.

I don't know how well "Walking" would have done with another voice. Susaye, brilliant vocalist that she is, doesn't quite set the song on fire the way Scherrie does.

That being said, I've mentioned before that the Supremes were more than just a group of singers, it was a brand that was trademarked by the original trio. Diana's voice was obviously a big part of that. Replacing her, Jean made perfect sense because she embodied a lot of the qualities Diana had without sounding like a knockoff or wanna be. Had Gladys Knight replaced Diana, fantastic vocalist that she is, I don't think the Supremes would have started off as hot as they did because the drastic change from Diana to Gladys would have been too stark. I used that example before, along with the one about Levi going solo from the Tops and being replaced with Billy Griffin. It just wouldn't have worked for most fans, probably.

When Jean left, I do think it would have made sense to find a singer with that type of voice, but again not someone trying to be Jean or Diana, just someone who has those qualities: the light, melodic voice that could sing anything. That would be to keep the group on brand. Scherrie was not on brand, fantastic as she was. So as sole lead singer, I don't think she was enough to bring the fans back. It still wouldn't have felt like the Supremes.

Really the only resemblance between the Scherrie Supremes and the incarnations before it, was Mary. Lol Maybe if Mary had talked Motown into letting The Supremes morph into Supreme, the changes would have been easier for the public to accept because it would be like a brand new group. But again, none of this really matters if the material isn't landing.

[Ollie9]

I don't know how well "Walking" would have done with another voice. Susaye, brilliant vocalist that she is, doesn't quite set the song on fire the way Scherrie does.

That being said, I've mentioned before that the Supremes were more than just a group of singers, it was a brand that was trademarked by the original trio. Diana's voice was obviously a big part of that. Replacing her, Jean made perfect sense because she embodied a lot of the qualities Diana had without sounding like a knockoff or wanna be. Had Gladys Knight replaced Diana, fantastic vocalist that she is, I don't think the Supremes would have started off as hot as they did because the drastic change from Diana to Gladys would have been too stark. I used that example before, along with the one about Levi going solo from the Tops and being replaced with Billy Griffin. It just wouldn't have worked for most fans, probably.

When Jean left, I do think it would have made sense to find a singer with that type of voice, but again not someone trying to be Jean or Diana, just someone who has those qualities: the light, melodic voice that could sing anything. That would be to keep the group on brand. Scherrie was not on brand, fantastic as she was. So as sole lead singer, I don't think she was enough to bring the fans back. It still wouldn't have felt like the Supremes.

Really the only resemblance between the Scherrie Supremes and the incarnations before it, was Mary. Lol Maybe if Mary had talked Motown into letting The Supremes morph into Supreme, the changes would have been easier for the public to accept because it would be like a brand new group. But again, none of this really matters if the material isn't landing.

Had singer Polly Brown been born a black woman, she might have been perfect choice to replace Jean. Very reminiscent of Diana, with a light blend of pop, and r&b. That’s the style of voice they should have gone for.....imo.

[RanRan79]

Had singer Polly Brown been born a black woman, she might have been perfect choice to replace Jean. Very reminiscent of Diana, with a light blend of pop, and r&b. That’s the style of voice they should have gone for.....imo.

Polly may have sounded a bit too much like Diana and Jean. Lol

I'm typically not a fan of the really high pitched singers, but Deniece Williams is one of my favorite singers of all time. I think she would have made a great addition to the Supremes in 74.

Could you imagine if Mary had lucked up on Natalie Cole before she broke out the following year? Oh man could that have been something!

Now here's a pick that might be even more wild than Polly Brown: Nell Carter. Now Nell didn't have a chance. In fact, I'd wager Polly had more of a chance of being a Supreme than Nell did because Motown would never have greenlit a woman of Nell's size during that time for any grouping of Supremes. So this is nothing more than a "what if" pick for me. I love Nell's voice and she too could sing anything. I think it would have been interesting to hear what the group would have sounded like with her.

Now these picks were all about voice with no regard for how the group would have gotten along or how long the women would have stayed before going solo or any of that.

[Spreadinglove21]

Lol Again, the Supremes are the only artists where fans ever talk about a "commercial" voice. What does this even mean? If you think about all the hit songs and artists that have been in the public eye for the last 65 years, can you really put them all in one box called "commercial"? I can't. I don't think the public ever even thought about that kind of thing. That's not to say that there aren't voices that seem in a class of their own. Diana is certainly one and she didn't really sound like anyone else. But her voice was the lead on seven or eight flops before finding a place in the public's heart, and then the lead on several flops during the DRATS period and her solo career. Scherrie sang on most of her Supremes' tenure singles and only one did anything worth mentioning, so how "commercial" was it exactly?

I believe back then the only thing that mattered to the public was that the song was good and the voice was good. They could have cared less about anything else. How many people turned the station saying "Oh no, that voice, not commercial enough for me"?

I believe you may be correct. I wonder if this is due to the influence of books like Mary's and Call Her Miss Ross, which put an emphasis on the commercial success of the Supremes and later Diana Ross?

I'm in the midst of a deep dive into Stax, going through the box sets and the booklets that accompany them. Chart success is mentioned but only part of the picture. Certainly no discussion of an artist having a "commercial" voice, just that they had talent and that some material worked better than others.

[Ollie9]

Polly may have sounded a bit too much like Diana and Jean. Lol

I'm typically not a fan of the really high pitched singers, but Deniece Williams is one of my favorite singers of all time. I think she would have made a great addition to the Supremes in 74.

Could you imagine if Mary had lucked up on Natalie Cole before she broke out the following year? Oh man could that have been something!

Now here's a pick that might be even more wild than Polly Brown: Nell Carter. Now Nell didn't have a chance. In fact, I'd wager Polly had more of a chance of being a Supreme than Nell did because Motown would never have greenlit a woman of Nell's size during that time for any grouping of Supremes. So this is nothing more than a "what if" pick for me. I love Nell's voice and she too could sing anything. I think it would have been interesting to hear what the group would have sounded like with her.

Now these picks were all about voice with no regard for how the group would have gotten along or how long the women would have stayed before going solo or any of that.

Nell Carter as lead singer of the Supremes. Not a voice that springs instantly to mind ‘tis true. I think I’ll stick with dear Polly.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I agree that the Supremes started out great with great songs-Up The Ladder and Stoned Love Stoned Love could have been that hit but Motown and a drug fearing country was a roadblock. By 1973, they did not have the best songs and it showed on the charts. Slowly after Stoned Love, the singles just weren't as good. Bad Weather and IGIMTM only got to the mid 80's. Then they didn't record for 2 years. For Jean's tenure she got compared to Diana, voicewise she won but not in her stage presence. Mary was right to start singing more leads, as the group did need some consistency. Scherrie was an excellent choice-she didn't sound like Diana or Jean but had a distinct voice, glamour and stage presence. With Cindy, they had a great harmony and with Susaye, 3 distinct lead vocalists. IGLMHDTW should have hit much higher than #40. It was catchy, distinctive and had the disco sound but was much more than just a piece of disco drivel. Let Yourself Go was also a very good tune, Scherrie continuing her strong vocals with a song about empowering yourself to enjoy life. Neither may have hit #1, but they certainly had an opportunity to have the Supremes lead Motown into a new era of disco. Had Motown been behind them and did a whole new act and wardrobe, perhaps they would have endured. The final groupings were among the most talented and progressive,

[jobeterob]

The 2 year layoff was definitely very damaging to the group

Bickering and infighting were also damaging - you won’t get a lot of record company support when it’s unclear if the group is going to blow apart

The group lost it’s trademark sound when Jean left; she was no Diana and there were no number 1’s but she gave them two Top 10 pop hits and kept the sound intact. With Touch they had people and radio wondering “what happened, who is that?”

Otis never sang lead but his group lasted 60 years; with a song history like the Supremes had, without the FLOS competing against Mary, they could have regrouped around the time of Motown 25 and gone on like the Tempts and Tops. With a decent reunion, it could have been a great comeback instead of a fizzling disappointment

[RanRan79]

I'll backtrack a bit on one of my opinions. I do think if promoted right, "Can't Stop a Girl In Love" or "Color My World Blue" could have been successful singles. Number one? I don't know. Top ten? I think so. Yes, they were uptempo, but it wasn't disco. Not to me, anyway. I think if the group had a chance in the Scherrie years to hit big as the Supremes with the material they recorded, it was one or both of these songs, and "Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You", which I also think was easily a top ten single had it been released.

[sup_fan]

I'll backtrack a bit on one of my opinions. I do think if promoted right, "Can't Stop a Girl In Love" or "Color My World Blue" could have been successful singles. Number one? I don't know. Top ten? I think so. Yes, they were uptempo, but it wasn't disco. Not to me, anyway. I think if the group had a chance in the Scherrie years to hit big as the Supremes with the material they recorded, it was one or both of these songs, and "Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You", which I also think was easily a top ten single had it been released.

Ran - 100% agree. the Ivey Woodford tracks are some of the strongest of the 70s. they might not be quite a magical at Ladder or Stoned Love. but frankly what is? those two are super rare. but these tracks from 75 were excellent. motown should have quickly jumped on these and pushed out an album. there are some amazing Mary leads and Scherrie of course kills it. frankly i'm not a huge fan of the shared lead tracks - like the shared lead Sha La or the all-group-unison Give Out. i like the idea but i don't think these were the best results. still this could have been a strong pop album, easily re-establishing the act in the pop world.

to your point 'would these be #1'? i also agree. Can't Stop would have done well. top 20 definitely. maybe top 10. and depending on what else was fighting on the charts for #1, maybe it could have almost made it. same with Color.

[RanRan79]

Ran - 100% agree. the Ivey Woodford tracks are some of the strongest of the 70s. they might not be quite a magical at Ladder or Stoned Love. but frankly what is? those two are super rare. but these tracks from 75 were excellent. motown should have quickly jumped on these and pushed out an album. there are some amazing Mary leads and Scherrie of course kills it. frankly i'm not a huge fan of the shared lead tracks - like the shared lead Sha La or the all-group-unison Give Out. i like the idea but i don't think these were the best results. still this could have been a strong pop album, easily re-establishing the act in the pop world.

to your point 'would these be #1'? i also agree. Can't Stop would have done well. top 20 definitely. maybe top 10. and depending on what else was fighting on the charts for #1, maybe it could have almost made it. same with Color.

I love the shared lead "Sha La"! Lol I wish it had made the original album. I'm not all that crazy about the Scherrie only led versions. [[I also love the ones by Aretha and Sandra Wright.)

Just speculating, but if everything stayed the same [[as in Scherrie and Susaye become Supremes, the albums are released as they were, tracklists intact) I think singles wise I may have gone with this:

"Early Morning Love"...If consistency was an issue- and it was- I think if they came right out the gate with Mary leading and Motown promoted the hell out of the issue that Mary was still very much with the group [[I know Mary has said even some djs didn't realize an original Supreme was still with the act at some point) and singing lead on this song, it could have caught on. Also with it being a Holland brothers production and the reunion of the group with two thirds of the writing team that helped put the group on the map in the first place I think it had a chance at going at least top 40 pop, top 20 r&b. Not only would it have been a reminder that Mary was still very much a Supreme, but also that it's a new era from the sound of a Diana or Jean. With the down time between Jean and Lynda's exit and the release of "He's My Man", the Supremes needed a super boost in promotion and these nostalgic elements- Mary, one of the ladies who took the world by storm in the 60s, and the Hollands who helped them- could have helped the public at least give the new group a chance. Next...

"You Can't Stop a Girl"...great way to introduce that there is yet another new girl, but she's a dynamo and the song is just great. I could really hear it floating on the airwaves, people calling stations to request it, copies flying out of the stores. I actually think it had a chance at #1, but at least top 10.

"Color My World Blue"...sort of follows the formula of the previous single. I think it could have gone top 10.

"You Turn Me Around...if one more single could be squeezed out of Supremes 75, I think this would have been the one. It's a beautiful vocal by Mary and a beautiful arrangement. And it shows the group had versatility in styles of song. I think it could have gone at least top 20, maybe top 10.

"I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking"...I think it was a perfect decision to release it as a single, so I wouldn't change it. At this point the group has wracked up three or four big hits together, so "Walking" would have gotten more attention and thus probably fared better than it did. Easy top 10, although I wouldn't rule out #1.

"High Energy"...once again it's time to introduce the new girl. I think the song is very good. The only change I would make is the chorus. I think the chorus is what might hold the song back. Change the chorus and I think "High Energy" could have gone top 20 or 25 pop, top 10 r&b.

"Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You"...fantastic Mary vocal. The arrangement of everything is dope. Sounds very contemporary. I think it could have gone #1, at least top 10.

"You're What's Missing In My Life"...great song, and complimentary vocal interplay between two vastly different singers, more effective here than say on "Touch". The track is really nice, danceable. I'd call it a top 10.

With the release of the MSS album, I think it should have been promoted that this was it, the end of the road for the group.

"Sweet Dream Machine" would be the lead single, see where it goes.

"We Should Be Closer Together"...a great way to give Mary a bit of a push as a soloist. I think it could have gone top 40 pop, top 20 or 10 r&b.

"Let Yourself Go"...the final single, a great way to end, with the girls just having a ball as opposed to singing about love found or lost.

[sup_fan]

I love the shared lead "Sha La"! Lol I wish it had made the original album. I'm not all that crazy about the Scherrie only led versions. [[I also love the ones by Aretha and Sandra Wright.)

Just speculating, but if everything stayed the same [[as in Scherrie and Susaye become Supremes, the albums are released as they were, tracklists intact) I think singles wise I may have gone with this:

"Early Morning Love"...If consistency was an issue- and it was- I think if they came right out the gate with Mary leading and Motown promoted the hell out of the issue that Mary was still very much with the group [[I know Mary has said even some djs didn't realize an original Supreme was still with the act at some point) and singing lead on this song, it could have caught on. Also with it being a Holland brothers production and the reunion of the group with two thirds of the writing team that helped put the group on the map in the first place I think it had a chance at going at least top 40 pop, top 20 r&b. Not only would it have been a reminder that Mary was still very much a Supreme, but also that it's a new era from the sound of a Diana or Jean. With the down time between Jean and Lynda's exit and the release of "He's My Man", the Supremes needed a super boost in promotion and these nostalgic elements- Mary, one of the ladies who took the world by storm in the 60s, and the Hollands who helped them- could have helped the public at least give the new group a chance. Next...

"You Can't Stop a Girl"...great way to introduce that there is yet another new girl, but she's a dynamo and the song is just great. I could really hear it floating on the airwaves, people calling stations to request it, copies flying out of the stores. I actually think it had a chance at #1, but at least top 10.

"Color My World Blue"...sort of follows the formula of the previous single. I think it could have gone top 10.

"You Turn Me Around...if one more single could be squeezed out of Supremes 75, I think this would have been the one. It's a beautiful vocal by Mary and a beautiful arrangement. And it shows the group had versatility in styles of song. I think it could have gone at least top 20, maybe top 10.

"I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking"...I think it was a perfect decision to release it as a single, so I wouldn't change it. At this point the group has wracked up three or four big hits together, so "Walking" would have gotten more attention and thus probably fared better than it did. Easy top 10, although I wouldn't rule out #1.

"High Energy"...once again it's time to introduce the new girl. I think the song is very good. The only change I would make is the chorus. I think the chorus is what might hold the song back. Change the chorus and I think "High Energy" could have gone top 20 or 25 pop, top 10 r&b.

"Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You"...fantastic Mary vocal. The arrangement of everything is dope. Sounds very contemporary. I think it could have gone #1, at least top 10.

"You're What's Missing In My Life"...great song, and complimentary vocal interplay between two vastly different singers, more effective here than say on "Touch". The track is really nice, danceable. I'd call it a top 10.

With the release of the MSS album, I think it should have been promoted that this was it, the end of the road for the group.

"Sweet Dream Machine" would be the lead single, see where it goes.

"We Should Be Closer Together"...a great way to give Mary a bit of a push as a soloist. I think it could have gone top 40 pop, top 20 or 10 r&b.

"Let Yourself Go"...the final single, a great way to end, with the girls just having a ball as opposed to singing about love found or lost.

maybe since i was so accustomed to Sha La being Scherrie only that i just didn't quite latch onto the multi lead. i love the idea of doing it. i just don't think M and C leads are especially strong. unlike the stunning Bridge over Troubled Water on NW. ignoring the dumb fog horn, their shared leads were so beautiful.

for me and singles, i'd do the following.

It's all been said - and released this practically immediately after recording. either late, late Dec 74 or first thing in Jan 75

Can't stop a girl - spring 75

Color My world - Sept 75

He's My Man - Dec 75

Walking - March 76

Let yourself go - Aug 76

don't wanna be tied down - Dec 76

That's an interesting idea to actively promote MS&S as a "farewell" album. one comment on your listing is that is a LOT of singles. not sure how each could be scheduled in there without releasing on top of one another