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  1. #1
    RossHolloway Guest

    Isley Brothers + Motown + England

    The Isley Brother's bio on Pandora radio reads as follow in part:

    They signed to the Motown subsidiary Tamla in 1965, where they joined forces with the famed Holland-Dozier-Holland writing and production team. Their first single, the shimmering "This Old Heart of Mine [[Is Weak for You)," was their finest moment yet, and barely missed the pop Top Ten.

    "This Old Heart of Mine" was their only hit on Motown, however, and when the song hit number three in Britain in 1967, the Isleys relocated to England in order to sustain their flagging career; after years of writing their own material, they felt straitjacketed by the Motown assembly-line production formula, and by the time they returned stateside in 1969, they had exited Tamla to resuscitate the T-Neck label
    .

    Does anyone know just how much time the Isleys actually spent in England during thier Motown years? Does anyone else find it strange? That during the height of Motown's popularity in the US, the Isleys take off for England? I know very little is written/known about their time with Motown. Heck if it wern't for their recordings one would be hard pressed to believe they actually were signed to the label. There aren't many picutures from that era, no known live recordings, I've never read or heard any stories from other artists, writers or producers about their time there. It's just like a blank page in their and Motown's history. I do recall reading once that the Isley's felt like outsiders when the joined Motown [[as did Gladys Knight and the Pips, and I'm sure other non-Detroiter's did as well). I my opinion the Isley's recorded some great songs while with Motown. It's just too bad not much is known about their time there. Did they perform in Detroit during Motown Mondays? Does anyone recall seeing them live while they were signed to Motown between 1965-69? Do we know what their set list was like? Did they tour with any of the other Motown acts?

  2. #2
    That bio. is almost completely inaccurate - during their Motown days they didn't even visit the UK never mind move here.
    "This Old Heart .." didn't reach # 3 in 1967 - it was late '68. By that time they were getting ready to leave Motown to set up T-neck.

  3. #3
    RossHolloway Guest
    Thanks for that bit of info Davie. You can never fully believe everything that you read online. But that's only one small piece of the Isley's mystery. How did they spend their time at Motown? Did they make any tv appearance during their Motown years? One would think there would be at least a television performance of them singing This Old Heart of Mine around 66/67.

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    I'm sure I saw The Isleys lip-sinking to "This old heart of mine" on TV in 1966. Maybe it was on one of those national shows [[Shiveree, Shebang, etc.)?

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    Why did it take This Old Heart Of Mine so long to hit England? Was that typical of American records?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gary_james View Post
    Why did it take This Old Heart Of Mine so long to hit England? Was that typical of American records?
    "This Old Heart Of Mine" actually just sneaked into the British Top 50 in 1966, as did the follow up "I Guess I'll Always Love You".

    The song became a very popular club/discotheque favourite in Britain and was never deleted .. when the song hit #3 in Britain it had the same catalogue number as back in 1966 .. TMG 555.

    What happened that back in 1968 there were a lot of people in Britain who were none to happy with the trends in popular music at that time [[ "Progressive Rock" in particular ) and wanted to carry on listening to the happy-go-lucky uptempo Soul songs of the mid 60s. So Tamla-Motown in London decided to re-promote "This Old Heart Of Mine" and it shot up the charts .. AND it started a trend as for the next five years or more hardly a week went by without there being two or three old mid 60s Soul records in the U.K. charts.

    With Motown this is neatly illustrated as each year from 1967 through to the mid '70s they would issue a "Chartbusters" L.P. containing 16 of the biggest Motown U.K. chart hits of the previous 12 months .. The L.Ps would come out around November to catch the Christmas boost in sales .. the volumes for 1967 and 1968 were all contemporary material .. the volume for 1969 had 7 tracks on it from the mid-60s, all of which were big U.K. hits that year.

    Roger

  7. #7
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    Volume 3 was a massive seller and won some fancy award for the cover artwork.

    The late Alan Freeman wrote the sleeve notes as a result of him promoting Dancing In The Street on Radio Luxenboug every night at 15 minutes past midnight for months.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by davie gordon2 View Post
    That bio. is almost completely inaccurate - during their Motown days they didn't even visit the UK never mind move here.
    "This Old Heart .." didn't reach # 3 in 1967 - it was late '68. By that time they were getting ready to leave Motown to set up T-neck.
    They did spell the name right though! LOL

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    Volume 3 was a massive seller and won some fancy award for the cover artwork.

    The late Alan Freeman wrote the sleeve notes as a result of him promoting Dancing In The Street on Radio Luxenboug every night at 15 minutes past midnight for months.
    Yes .. "Motown Chartbusters Volume Three" was the volume for 1969.

    I no longer have my vinyl copy of it but as I recall ALAN FREEMAN's sleeve notes mentioned that he "knew there would eventually be justice" for "Dancing In The Streets" .. though the song had actually reached #28 on the U.K. chart back in 1964.

    The 7 "old" recordings on the 1969 volume of Motown Chartbusters .. all of which were big U.K. hits in late-1968/1969 .. were ..

    "This Old Heart Of Mine" - ISLEY BROTHERS
    "Dancing In The Street" - MARTHA AND THE VANDELLAS
    "Stop Her On Sight" - EDWIN STARR
    "Tracks Of My Tears" - MIRACLES
    "Roadrunner" - JUNIOR WALKER
    "Get Ready" - THE TEMPTATIONS
    "Behind A Painted Smile" - ISLEY BROTHERS


    Roger

  10. #10
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    What Ross says about the Isley's lack of presence in the various memoirs of Motown is interesting, though. They may have felt constrained by the Motown machine, but they produced some stonking stuff for the label, and you can hear the joy with which the musicians took to the material and approach.

    They certainly were in the UK in the early days of the T-Neck revival. My cousin was present at a session they did with Ginger Baker's son in London.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bankhousedave View Post
    They certainly were in the UK in the early days of the T-Neck revival. My cousin was present at a session they did with Ginger Baker's son in London.
    They also came over to England prior to joining Motown and appeared on "Ready Steady Go" ..

    Here they are singing "Stagger-Lee" on the show ..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xQPFZw4mpE

    Roger

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    Haven't any others of you Americans remembered seeing The Isleys sing "This Old Heart of Mine" on US TV?

    As I stated above, -I'm sure I saw them sing it on at least one show. I'm also sure I didn't see them sing any other Motown song in a TV appearance. "I Guess I'll Always Love You"[[WVON & WLS), "Take Some Time Out [[For Love) [[WVON)" were the only others I remember making the radio. They weren't big enough for them to sing them on TV.

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    I think the Isleys spent time in England, it was just the wrong era. They first came to England around 1964 I believe. I never believed they spent time in England around '67, '68. They were in the cusp of reforming T-Neck around the time they were supposedly in England.

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    I'll check with my cuz the date of the session he recalls. Ginger Baker himself was not big until 67, so it would have been later than that that his boy was producing. Cousin Rick and I were playing jazz then. He went into production later, so the things they did here would have been into the 70s, I guess.

  15. #15
    RossHolloway Guest
    Does anyone know if they performed during the Motown Mondays in Detroit. It would be nice to think that there are some live recordings of the Isleys from this period.

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    The TV special "Motown: Yesterday, Today, Forever" has a very brief clip of the Isleys; the audio is of This Old Heart of Mine but they appear to actually be singing Shout [[probably from Shindig). This leads me to believe there is no surviving video of them doing TOHOM on TV.

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    Robb: Actually I think I remember them singing that song. It would have been back around 1966. I live in Western NYS and the syndicated show around here at the time was the Jerry Blavatt Show. [[Remember that one?) I swear I saw them on there at the time. I'm pretty sure I never saw them doing it on any of the national shows like Shindig or Am Bandstand
    Last edited by treborij; 05-23-2011 at 04:14 PM.

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    We got "The Jerry Blavat Show" in Chicago for a while. I KNOW I saw them sing "This Old Heart of Mine" on a TV show. I don't think they sang it on "Jim Lounsberry's Hop", or Dick Clark's "American Bandstand". Maybe it was "The Lloyd Thaxton Show"? Maybe "Shindig", Shebang" or "Shivaree"

  19. #19
    RossHolloway Guest
    One of my favorite cuts from the Isleys Motown output was the song All Because I Love You. The structure of the song I think is pretty advanced for 1968. It also sounds like a track that Stevie Wonder would have recorded during this stretch. It's a really strong and soulful song.

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    My favourite too.

    And it wasn't even issued as a 45 in the UK. Shame.

  21. #21
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    the 1st time i heard "all because i love you" was when i bought 16 big hits vol 7 [[uk stml) its just a brilliant song the way it builds and falls and i agree it is like a stevie track it gets breathless and i love the intro guitar,coincidently on the same lp is baby i miss you a little bit baby by marv johnson,well yesterday i was driving in the sunshine looking out over the north sea with marv's new cd on and that track came on and it was just one of those moments when you get a "lift".i was thinking i'm getting the same buzz from this song nearly 40 years later.amazing
    btw that vol 7 16 big hits was a great compilation [[the whole series to vol 8 was) most of it bypassed the uk chart,airplay,never heard most of the songs before.

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    Mine as well - another brilliant Frank Wilson production. Great horns.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamla617 View Post
    the 1st time i heard "all because i love you" was when i bought 16 big hits vol 7 [[uk stml) its just a brilliant song the way it builds and falls and i agree it is like a stevie track it gets breathless and i love the intro guitar,coincidently on the same lp is baby i miss you a little bit baby by marv johnson,well yesterday i was driving in the sunshine looking out over the north sea with marv's new cd on and that track came on and it was just one of those moments when you get a "lift".i was thinking i'm getting the same buzz from this song nearly 40 years later.amazing
    btw that vol 7 16 big hits was a great compilation [[the whole series to vol 8 was) most of it bypassed the uk chart,airplay,never heard most of the songs before.

    Tamla617. Great minds think alike! *smile*

    STML 11092 was a wonderful album...stereo version of Martha's "I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playing" and if I recall correctly, it was when us Brits first got to know Temptations - "I Gotta Find A Way [[to Win Your Back". It was from the "Cloud 9" album which hadn't been released in the UK at that time.

  24. #24
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    I bought STML 11092 as well. Loved "All Because I Love You", but strangely have a blind spot for "Chained" even though it's also a Frank Wilson composition. It's a bit tuneless, yet so many different artists have recorded it.

    The problem with the stereo version of "I Can't Dance..." is that it loses that great moment at the beginning of the instrumental break where Martha's voice melds into the sax.

  25. #25
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    Here's an interesting link to what appears to be all the Motown Various Artists LPs in the "16 Big Hits" and "Chartbusters" series. Unfortunately, if the track listing isn't on the front of the album, you can't tell what's on the albums except in a few cases, but I've always been interested to see how these series varied from one another, from the US to the UK versions even in some cases, so thought it would be of interest:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/cookeph...194516/detail/

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    Strange how Volume 2 was on Tamla, yet all the others were on Motown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Strange how Volume 2 was on Tamla, yet all the others were on Motown.
    There was another interesting thing about that release. For the longest time, it was issued on Mono only and then went out of print. Late in the decade, perhaps '68, it was reissued in Stereo and several of the songs were rerecordings, the most notable being "I'll Have to Let Him Go" by the Vandellas, updated with better vocals and production, sounding like a completely different song. I don't remember the other variations as much but I know that the Kim Weston track "Just Loving You" was the long extended version though I think it was the same vocal. But most of all, the stereo mixes on these tracks were vastly superior to the earlier thinner sounding mono mixes.

  28. #28
    RossHolloway Guest
    Between All Because I Love You, I Can't Go On Sharing Your Love and their take on Born To Love You. Pure heaven. Their power vocals and that Classic Motown Sound was really a match made in heaven. I would have loved to have heard them live during this period.

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    There was an article [[probably in the old Four Tops fanzine) on the Isleys, which suggests they were at a 'Motown' party where they received congratulations on the success of TOHOM...a hit first time out , which was relatively rare for the existing artists.The Isley's appeared to suggest that this did not go down well the others and spread bad feelings....hence their unhappy future at Hitsville. [[In their terms......most of us here love their catalogue, and I'm delighted that others share my view on "All because I love you. I highlighted this track in a NS mag I wrote a column for, and bemoaned the lack of UK 45....weeks later a photo of an Australian 45 on Tamla Motown was printed, very nice!)
    I've recently took a shine to "Weakspot" that we now have via the recent CD .

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    The Isleys were my favorite Motown act. Amongst all of the male vocal groups, they seemed completely unique and never lost their gospel styling. Something that I think made them unique was that the two brothers singing back-up were an absolutely essential part of their performances, something that I don't think can be said of some Motown acts. I read once that because they were real brothers, they had an inbuilt chemistry with each other regarding their singing voices.
    My favorite track is 'There's no love left', very moving lyrics and a superb performance.
    I tended to dismiss a lot of their 70s material as not to my taste and too far away from the Motown tracks I love, but two tracks that I have really grown to like are from the 3+3 album; 'You walk your way' and 'If you were there'.
    Also I really like a pre-Motown track they did for Atlantic, 'The last girl', absolutely great vocal performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snakepit View Post
    There was an article [[probably in the old Four Tops fanzine) on the Isleys, which suggests they were at a 'Motown' party where they received congratulations on the success of TOHOM...a hit first time out , which was relatively rare for the existing artists.The Isley's appeared to suggest that this did not go down well the others and spread bad feelings....hence their unhappy future at Hitsville. [[In their terms......most of us here love their catalogue, and I'm delighted that others share my view on "All because I love you. I highlighted this track in a NS mag I wrote a column for, and bemoaned the lack of UK 45....weeks later a photo of an Australian 45 on Tamla Motown was printed, very nice!)
    I've recently took a shine to "Weakspot" that we now have via the recent CD .
    Snakepit.

    There was competition on all levels at Motown and since this was a Detroit company, some felt that the local artists should be considered first. This explains why some, that came from outside, decided that they needed to move locally.

  32. #32
    RossHolloway Guest
    I had all but forgotten about this discussion. It's time to pull out their Anthology and give it a spin.

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    Yeah them going to the UK around the late '60s was not factual. They did visit the UK in '64. If I recall, I think their version of "Twist and Shout" was charting at the same time as the Beatles so they went to the UK to do some promotion [[the UK also took a liking to "Shout", if I recall, the Beatles and some other UK acts like Lulu also sung that song). Their brief tenure at Motown was a complex thing. There's been some urban legends surrounding them, especially that claim that they recorded "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" after the Miracles did it [[Ron Isley himself claimed they were given the song but I don't know if he said they actually recorded it). As far as being outsiders, wasn't Marvin an "outsider" too [[since he came from D.C., and later Chicago)? I think it's because BG took more of a liking to them since TOHOM hit so quickly and they had a history before joining Motown that got them to give them their congratulations which probably upset the veterans there so I doubt it was because it was a Detroit thing.

  34. #34
    RossHolloway Guest
    I think Marvin Gaye's situation was a bit different. Marvin at one point was in Harvey Fuqua's Moonglows and after the group broke up Marvin followed Harvey to Detroit. Harvey married Berry Gordy's sister Gwen Gordy in the early 60's and from what I remember introduced Marvin to Barry. Marvin seems to have been at Motown before Motown became famous and was connected to the Gordy family thru marriage. The Isley Brothers came to Motown in late '65 - after the company had taken off, and HDH were established hitmakers. I would imagine that artists and groups who had been signed to Motown prior to this were all jockeying for the best songs and producers, ie. HDH. And for the Isley Brothers to have their first single written and produced by HDH and their first album to contain mostly [[if not all) HDH songs may have rubbed some artists who had been "waiting their turn" the wrong way.

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    ^ Yeah I was going to edit that Marvin had been around Motown since 1959-1960 or somewhere along there. With the Isleys, it was a veterans vs. rookies thing because even though the Isleys had been "established" prior to Motown, their entry and quick succession caused bitterness with those who were there from the get. Gladys Knight used to complain that the reason they were treated differently than the "original" Motowners was because with them, it was like they built a foundation together, anyone else who came in were looked on as "outsiders".

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    Anyone know how Sylvia Moy came to be added to the writing credits on THIS OLD HEART OF MINE sometime after the recording was originally released? And what her contribution to it was? I've seen some pressings whose labels include her name.

    Could it be that Sylvia is credited only for Tammi's version?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Methuselah2; 04-17-2015 at 08:43 PM.

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    I never paid that close attention to how many tunes she composed/shared composing credits with others:

    http://songwritershalloffame.org/index.php/songs/C2338/

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    Carole - Thanks so much for Sylvia's songwriting link. I had no idea of how prolific she was, either.

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    Nice post,my fav by the isleys is the[b-side]there's no love left.

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    The Isleys were in the UK in 1964 and appeared on Ready Steady Go! lip synching Twist and Shout [[I think) and [[definitely) their current UK Atlantic release, the fabulous The Last Girl.

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    I love "All Because I Love You" as well but, to be honest, I'm not convinced that it's smash hit material. It's perhaps too sophisticated and not "instant" enough. For me, however, that's also what makes it an enduring listen to this day.

    It's US B-side is also a fabulous track, however. Plus it's "instant", with an unusual slow flute and piano-led intro followed by a blast into a funky dance groove from Benny Benjamin and The Funk Brothers.

    I suspect that this is what Motown in the UK recognised when they decided to issue that B-side as an A-side and got a UK smash hit with "Behind A Painted Smile" in the autumn of 1968.

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    I heard "Heart" on Sirius XM the other day and the DJ said that the song was originally slated for The Supremes....could have been another #1 for the girls?

  44. #44
    RossHolloway Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia View Post
    I heard "Heart" on Sirius XM the other day and the DJ said that the song was originally slated for The Supremes....could have been another #1 for the girls?
    I thought that "Heart" was originally intended for the Four Tops. I will check TCMS 1966 to see what the liner notes say.

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    It was Kim Weston.

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  48. #48
    Complete Isleys on Motown completed
    I have always wanted the complete Isleys on Motown because they never made a duff track, and recently assembled all their Motown recordings on CD. Preferring stereo versions, I avoided the Anthology and went about getting the desired tracks on: The Isley Brothers Essential Collection [[5445162), Classic Isley Brothers Universal Masters Collection [[1578712) and Isley Brothers Greatest Motown Hits [[5300532), which were all available on CD for great prices. By my reckoning, I now have all the tracks from their studio albums, including the MFP and Starline LPs [[including my fave, ''Nevermore'')which I used to own, so I'm now a happy Isleysfan and able to wallow in all those wonderful Ivy Hunter touches and HDH interpretations. Miffed about your Motown days, guys? Take another listen - you waxed some major league tracks!

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