That is because she was indoctrinated into the old system where pre and post-production was done for the singer. By the late 60s, that all changed, but Motown didn't until the late 70s, and neither did she.
She was used to doing everything in the studio. Again, the old way, and she never changed. Studio time costs money. It's not like in the days when the record label owned the studio. Ultimately, it's her own fault.
Last edited by soulster; 06-10-2018 at 02:59 PM.
It has been reported by eyewitnesses that Eddie Holland had to spoon feed the lyrics, line by line to Diane. Berry Gordy would have to tell her when to start singing once the music started. He also made her listen to Brenda Holloway demos in order to learn phrasing when she sang. They did everything for her at Motown so all she had to do is either sing along with the demo [[remember Johnny Bristol admitted being in her earphones during the recording of "Someday We'll Be Together" to help her get it right) or sing the way the producers wanted her to sing a certain song. Berry was only after a "sound" she made with her voice. After that he/they had to package everything.
It depends on who was running the label back then. Some believed that Black artists should only be marketed to Black radio.
In the 80s, RCA was in financial trouble because of the crazy money they gave to Diana Ross and Evelyn King, and never saw a return on their investment. That's one reason the people at RCA disliked Ross.
It has been said that she nearly bankrupted them. RCA President at that time, Summers was livid with her . His career and reputation was on the line since he was the one instrumental in signing that $20 million deal with her. He thought she could bring the "Motown magic" with her. He did not know that any success she had achieved at Motown was Berry Gordy's doing........
I believe it, but when you focus on the lyrics to the songs she recorded with them and others, they have "simple simon" type lyrics that kids in grammar school could sing. Lionel Richie had problem with her attitude in the studio when they first recorded "Endless Love". His song! She demanded to sing parts of the song that he had written for himself to sing. He had to give in or no recording. He said that she was "aloof" where everyone else at Motown was friendly.
Maybe if it was left up to MJ, Eaten Alive would've been a hit. It was not entirely focused. I felt Michael and the Gibbs were writing two different songs to me. Seems like Diana was trying to do a hard rock record but didn't know exactly where to take it. And I'm guessing it was the Gibbs' and MJ's idea to make her sing out of her range? She's not a Bee Gee or MJ lol
Now for the truth regarding the recording session for Endless Love. There is a video at the link- I can't get it to imbed. Click on the link and it will take you to the video
http://abcn.ws/2EoULqF
Seems to me per Lionel, that Diana brought her creative expertise to the recording session. There is also a video from HDH Where they explain that Diana and the Supremes were in the studio and they were still writing the song this is why they were giving her the song line by line and no other reason. I can’t find that video.
Ah the famous studio clash between Diana and the producers lol
We know how that paid off.
Marv was comparing them as saying they were having huge hits compared to Diana Ross. That is simply not true. Diana Ross' Eaten Alive charted higher than both Patti Labelles "Patti" album and Gladys and the Pips "Life" album. Like I said Gladys had a only a few verses on "That's what friends are for" and it was done for charity. Diana Ross also hit #1 that same year singing a few verses on "We are the world" for charity as well. Marv was saying everybody else was having huge hits and Diana was the only one who wasn't. That is simply not true. Diana had just recently scored a top 10 with "Missing you" too. IMO Patti Labelle and Gladys Knights charts history in 1985 were not huge hits compared to what Diana Ross was selling. All three of them were struggling to hit the top ten on the billboard charts. Diana and Gladys both benefited with hitting number 1 with their all star charity records.
Last edited by vgalindo; 06-10-2018 at 05:17 PM.
Seems to me that Motown is history and all there is to talk about is the past and it’s been rehashed so many times that we repeat and get into minute detail, none of which really matters at all
Hence we have a bimonthly Wiz thread going through it’s fail at release and resurrection 40 years later and a bimonthly thread on why the 70’s Supremes failed
Hence we have threads on the latest tours by the 4 big Motown stars and then a picture of Mary at a small club with commentary to show she’s reaching a Smokey or Lionel crowd
Without that sorta stuff and scraps over Bill Cosby and without Word Association and Marv, there’d be no real forum left; and that’s making no excuse for Marv’s unhappy demeanor
You really need to fact check yourself - Patti, Dionne and Gladys were sucking hind tit behind Diana - Ree as well until Freeway........ I love it when you start getting carried away with your Ross rants that you don’t join into......lololol.
This is us exactly the type of talk you complain about when the same types if comments are made about Mary - only then, it’s bashing. Are you listening Luke?
Well you know now. I was referring to you.
I believe I said as much in post #109.
Oh you were definitely feeding off of Mr. Nobody-Thinks-About-Diane-But-I-Post-About-Diane-All-The-Time after you said you would leave the thread. And talking about personal, when you make comments like "but you guys have a way of making everything so personal...", that's personal. Who the hell are you even talking about? Because you can't lump me in with anyone else in this group. What I took personal was your response to my playful banter. Firstly, what rubbed me the wrong way regarding our difference of opinion about Diana Ross' categorization is that you framed your opinion as a fact. You don't seem to use key phrases such as "I believe", "I think", "in my opinion" or "I feel". When I responded with examples of what I felt were Diana Ross as a r&b singer and your response was "that's not r&b", I took that personal in the same way anyone with extensive knowledge of a subject might be offended by someone telling them that they are wrong. Now had you said "I don't think/feel" that's r&b, I would've shrugged and went on about the thread as you're simply stating your opinion and not coming for mine. But because you said it so matter of factly, I was like wait a minute, hold up, you barking up the wrong tree questioning my r&b knowledge. I never insulted you. I never called you out of your name. I figured you ultimately meant no offense [[and as been pointed out before, sometimes the written word can be misinterpreted because the usual things you get in person are absent) and then I joked about cutting you if you did it again. You were the one who responded in some crazy way and then tried to frame the issue as a Diana Ross issue when it had nothing to do with her. And yet I still addressed it without attacking you. While I reluctantly accept that you misunderstood my cutting comment [[despite the fact that no other context for that comment makes sense in this forum), you didn't even bother to apologize for jumping bad about an obvious joke.
Bullshit. You can take your poor picked on Mr. Nobody-Thinks-About-Diane-But-I-Post-About-Diane-All-The-Time sentiments and stick 'em. One of my very first posts in this forum was during a thread where the subject of Marvin Gaye's "Can I Get a Witness" and it's background vocals was either the actual thread subject or it came up in the evolution of the conversation. I made the comment that I didn't think [[and still don't) that Mary Wilson is with Diana and Florence on the song because [[a) she attributes the backing vocals on the song to Martha and the Vandellas in her book, not the Supremes, and [[b) I don't hear her. That's all I said. What did Mr. Poor Picked On reply? "Who cares what you think." If that's not the sign of an obsessed fan, I don't know what is. If that's not nasty for the sake of being nasty, I don't know what is. Mr. Nobody-Thinks-About-Diane-But-I-Post-About-Diane-All-The-Time is not the only one who gets nasty when someone says something about their favorite Supreme. There are quite a few in this forum who do the same nasty shit when it comes to Diana Ross. But I pay attention in this forum to who does what and when and if you are suggesting for one minute that He Who Shall Not Be Named never resorts to personal attacks, you'll have to miss me with that because it's bull. He's on the same level as some of the Rossers. Stop it.
On this we can agree.
I still don't understand why you're saying this to me. I didn't have a problem with your comments about Diana Ross. I had a problem with the two things I pointed out previously that were about me [[my perception of them, anyway). And I don't need to be told what kind of site this is. I don't talk about Diana Ross in every threadand I've been known to be quite critical of her, which is why some of the Rossers have been blocked and why some of them have probably blocked me. I was personally insulted by one just a couple of weeks ago. So perhaps you should take a step back sometimes and ask yourself what is the real reason behind the problem? Because clearly I'm the wrong one you can chalk up your issue as an irrational Diana Ross fan not liking your opinion.
Let's not confuse singles with albums. I was talking about singles. let's also keep our time lines in order. "Missing You" charts in 1984. We are talking about 1985. It also probably confuses the issue when you count in "That's What Friends Are For" and "We Are The World", as they are both collaboration singles with two or more artists. Those really shouldn't count.
Lookit: who cares what Marv thinks? Who cares what you or I think? The fact is that people around here should be talking about more than just one damn singer! Have you looked at the "headlines"? Five of the current top threads are about, or involved Ross. Out of the hundreds of artists, and that's all the lot of you can find to talk about???
1980-83 I think Diana probably has the edge over her diva peers. That 84-85 period is where Diana is hanging on [[no pun intended) but the others are right there with her, and in a case here and there, doing better. But 1986 is where Diana disappears while the others ladies are either gaining steam [[Patti) or holding steady [[Ree and Tina). Even Gladys would do a couple of songs that remain in the public's memory. Nobody remembers "Eaten Alive", even as a number 10 r&b hit. Nobody in the states remembers "Chain Reaction". Nobody was talking about Red Hot Rhythm and Blues in 1987 or in 2017 [[except Soulful Detroit).
I mentioned before about Diana's r&b/pop or r&b only tunes being more successful than her pop offerings because the public preferred her that way. By the time Diana came back to Motown pop radio moved all the way on from Diana Ross, but r&b radio still hung in there, playing "Workin Overtime" all the way to the number 3 position. I remember that song on the radio all the time. Of course today nobody talks about it because it ends up not being all that memorable. Diana's diva peers were creating memorable music in the 80s. The last truly unforgettable tune she released in the states was "Missing You". Everything after that apparently pales in comparison to everything that came before it.
Also it's important to remember that if we're talking memory, with an artist like Ross, whose hit making career spanned the course of three decades, you have someone creating unforgettable music for much of it, so one would have to allow that there might be a fall off, in every way possible. The woman's voice is the centerpiece of some 18[[?) number one hits, not to mention top 10s like "My World Is Empty" and "I'm Coming Out".
The woman's popularity fell off, but what a career to fall off from. Ask Martha Reeves or Mary Wilson or Brenda Holloway or Jean Terrell or Kim Weston if they would've killed for Ross' success. You better damn believe it.
But...you're...here...talking...about...her...I'm confused here. Also let's not forget a couple of very important things: every person has the right and the power to refuse to enter any thread that does not interest them, and every person has the right and the power to create a Motown related thread that interests them. If you're tired of talking Diana Ross, start the conversation on something else. I created a thread about the Contours, I don't think you bothered with it, did you?
Tellingly more than half the comments in this thread are by posters I ignore.
I beg to disagree with a forum-friend, because in reality the negative posters drive more members away than they attract. And those are the members who may introduce new thoughts and ideas, particularly professionals who, say, were present at the recording and release of the EA lp who could give us definitive answers. But the tide of filth spilled by 3-4 persons here keeps the profs away. And, sir, may I remind you that YOUR country burned down the white house. Or something.
Like Gomer Pyle said: "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"
Oh, you're a mind-reader know! Damn! With your power, you should be bigger than Trump!Oh you were definitely feeding off of Mr. Nobody-Thinks-About-Diane-But-I-Post-About-Diane-All-The-Time after you said you would leave the thread.
Shit! You do! You Ross fans don't know how to argue your positions without personally insulting with those whose opinions you don't like. Any time anyone criticizes your beloved Diana Ross, you all take it as a personal affront and attack. I made a snarky comment about Bill Cosby and Ross and you all got deeply offended. The comment had nothing to do with you! Now, i'm not defending marv, but it seems he can't say anything about Diana Ross without you all attacking him. He, and anyone else here, has a right to be critical of Ms. Ross. News flash: she is not the most popular or beloved artist in the world. Climb out of your bubble! Even Ralph has criticized the Ross fans of going overboard with the zealousness.And talking about personal, when you make comments like "but you guys have a way of making everything so personal..."
First, I have been on internet forums long enough to know when someone can disguise hostility as playful banter. I am NOT saying you were hostile. I totally excused that, but I did find even a joke about "cutting" someone as hostile, violent gesture. My advice is to not do that to just anyone. We are not a 'family" here, and we do not know each other personally outside of this forum. I interpret the threat to "cut" someone, even if it's done on the internet, as hostile. Now, that was MY interpretation of it if you didn't mean it that way. So, in those cases, it's better not to say that at all. never assume everyone is going to be culturally similar to you. Suppose you jokingly said that to someone at your job? Think about it.What I took personal was your response to my playful banter.
When people post on an internet forum, it is assumed that whatever they say is their own opinion. One should not have to preface anything with "IMO". But, if someone presents a fact, it should be noted as such. Taking what someone says has fact reflects the reader's insecurity.Firstly, what rubbed me the wrong way regarding our difference of opinion about Diana Ross' categorization is that you framed your opinion as a fact. You don't seem to use key phrases such as "I believe", "I think", "in my opinion" or "I feel".
C'mon, man! There was NO reason to take that personally! I don't give a rat's ass if you are the grandson of a singer: I say Ross is a POP singer. I am a son of a singer. We both grew up on many styles of music, and both in R&B. So, which one of us is more qualified? Why did you have to make it a pissing contest? It's not.When I responded with examples of what I felt were Diana Ross as a r&b singer and your response was "that's not r&b", I took that personal in the same way anyone with extensive knowledge of a subject might be offended by someone telling them that they are wrong.
If you felt secure about your opinion, you wouldn't feel threatened by mine.Now had you said "I don't think/feel" that's r&b, I would've shrugged and went on about the thread as you're simply stating your opinion and not coming for mine. But because you said it so matter of factly, I was like wait a minute, hold up, you barking up the wrong tree questioning my r&b knowledge.
You know what, I thought we agreed to bury all of this. Obviously, it's still festering. I had nothing against you before this thread, and I really have nothing against you now. But, if this makes you feel better to blow it all out...I never insulted you. I never called you out of your name. I figured you ultimately meant no offense [[and as been pointed out before, sometimes the written word can be misinterpreted because the usual things you get in person are absent) and then I joked about cutting you if you did it again. You were the one who responded in some crazy way and then tried to frame the issue as a Diana Ross issue when it had nothing to do with her. And yet I still addressed it without attacking you. While I reluctantly accept that you misunderstood my cutting comment [[despite the fact that no other context for that comment makes sense in this forum), you didn't even bother to apologize for jumping bad about an obvious joke.
Believe it or not, i've come down on Marv over his agitating Ross fans in the past. He and I have also had differences. I even had him on ignore at one point. But, you know why we don't have any conflicts today? We don't make everything personal. Judging from our posts, we have a few things in common. Maybe that's the key. Perhaps when two people don't have much of anything in common, they are more likely to butt heads over the smallest things.Bullshit. You can take your poor picked on Mr. Nobody-Thinks-About-Diane-But-I-Post-About-Diane-All-The-Time sentiments and stick 'em. One of my very first posts in this forum was during a thread where the subject of Marvin Gaye's "Can I Get a Witness" and it's background vocals was either the actual thread subject or it came up in the evolution of the conversation. I made the comment that I didn't think [[and still don't) that Mary Wilson is with Diana and Florence on the song because [[a) she attributes the backing vocals on the song to Martha and the Vandellas in her book, not the Supremes, and [[b) I don't hear her. That's all I said. What did Mr. Poor Picked On reply? "Who cares what you think." If that's not the sign of an obsessed fan, I don't know what is. If that's not nasty for the sake of being nasty, I don't know what is. Mr. Nobody-Thinks-About-Diane-But-I-Post-About-Diane-All-The-Time is not the only one who gets nasty when someone says something about their favorite Supreme. There are quite a few in this forum who do the same nasty shit when it comes to Diana Ross. But I pay attention in this forum to who does what and when and if you are suggesting for one minute that He Who Shall Not Be Named never resorts to personal attacks, you'll have to miss me with that because it's bull. He's on the same level as some of the Rossers. Stop it.
Sheesh!I still don't understand why you're saying this to me. I didn't have a problem with your comments about Diana Ross. I had a problem with the two things I pointed out previously that were about me [[my perception of them, anyway). And I don't need to be told what kind of site this is. I don't talk about Diana Ross in every threadand I've been known to be quite critical of her, which is why some of the Rossers have been blocked and why some of them have probably blocked me. I was personally insulted by one just a couple of weeks ago. So perhaps you should take a step back sometimes and ask yourself what is the real reason behind the problem? Because clearly I'm the wrong one you can chalk up your issue as an irrational Diana Ross fan not liking your opinion.
Look, Let's say we wipe the slate clean and start over. You're not a bad guy, i'm not a bad guy. There is nor reason you and I should be yet two more enemies on this forum, as there are enough already. You and I disagree on a few things. That's normal. How about it with no further comment on this?
I entered this thread because I have strong opinions about "Eaten Alive". It's about the music. Obviously, it didn't turn out that way. I knew the risks I took getting into this thread, it being about a certain singer.
I recently started a thread about Ray Parker Jr. It got a few comments, but it sank kind of fast. The problem with posting threads about non-Motown artists and music is that someone almost always complains that it has nothing to do with Motown. But, Parker is a native Detroiter, and worked with Motown artists, so his discussion can certainly be part of the forum.
I did not participate in your Contours thread because all I know about them is "Do You Love Me". After that, I currently have no interest.
H That's the point I was making those 2 songs should not count. But you and Marv were the ones saying Gladys had a huge #1 while forgetting Diana had the same kind of #1 in the same year. And the thread was about the Album Eaten Alive and how Marv said it was trash and that everybody else was having huge hits. I assumed he was talking about their albums that was released in 1985.
In my enthusiasm of trying to prove someone wrong, I wound up being wrong too.
But, screw it! There was so much good music in the 80s that there was no way I could concentrate on just one, and that one faded pretty quickly after the "Swept Away" album. I don't like Patti Labelle, and wasn't much of a fan of Gladys Knight & The Pips or Dionne Warwick in the 80s.
While I was licking my chops at the opportunity to break this post down point for point, ultimately your last paragraph appealed to the part of me that prefers to find a resolution to a conflict [[that's not as "final" as using the ignore feature) rather than keep it going. So take this as my word that the problem between us is officially dead. If I bring it up again, feel free to reference this post and throw it up in my face as evidence of my hypocrisy. We will move forward as if it never happened...
I don't know, things get pretty weird around here sometimes. But it is a shame that the thread devolved the way it did. But if people would just take my advice when it comes to Mr. Nobody-Thinks-About-Diane-But-I-Post-About-Diane-All-The-Time, this thread would've never gone so far left. I mean at some point y'all gotta know he was[[is) throwing stuff out there just to see who will take a bite. Come on, I'm not the only one who notices this...am I??
That was one of the points I was making. There was a ton of great music out and after a certain point even the nice stuff Diana might do got lost in the shuffle because there were better options. I can play Who's Zoomin Who all the way through. I could toss a copy of Eaten Alive in the trash and not lose a lick of sleep. Diana Ross was so much better than the material she started releasing.
What I want to know is who had control at RCA? Was exclusive creative control a part of Diana's contract? If not, who was f'n up the job by not grabbing this woman by the shoulders and telling her to move over, she's going to get help with the next project? There is no way Diana Ross is signed to my label and releasing duds, even if I only paid her 1000 dollars in advance. She was not equipped to take over her career and at some point RCA knew that. Why didn't they do anything?
Can people just stop going after individual people here???? Geeez
With her contract at RCA, she formed Ross Records. Ross had full creative control, and a distribution deal. There wasn't much RCA could contractually do to set her straight. It was all her ego at work. Of course she wanted to do well, but she couldn't get out of her own way.
When she went back to Motown, she brought her Ross Records with her. Remember that horrible boxed set "Forever Diana" with the terrible packaging and horrible sound? That was all her doing. She didn't pick experienced producers, tape archivists or engineers, which is what you do for boxed sets. She could have picked Dennis Drake, Bill Inglot, Harry Weinger, Joseph M. Palmaccio, ...any of the top people of the day, but she didn't. As a result, that boxed set is a disaster. Tape misalignments, dropouts, bad EQ, questionable tape sources...I was pissed when I bought it and sold it within days.
Last edited by soulster; 06-10-2018 at 09:19 PM.
I am never going to stop telling the truth so you can go to bed now! Stop trying to qualify your BS! It was not a solo recording, nor did she help write it. That is why she still has to pay Lionel Richie a performance fee to this very day everytime she warbles it in her pitiful "concerts" now.
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