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  1. #1
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    Motown drummers and drumming in Detroit – waddaya think about it?

    Motown seems to be the record label which changed the role of the drummer from a musician who accompanied the band and kept time to a musician who drove the band’s performance with a driving 4-to-the-bar beat.

    On classic 60s Motown smashes such as “Uptight” by Stevie Wonder and “Reach Out I’ll Be There” by Four Tops we hear Benny Benjamin or Richard “Pistol” Allen driving the track along with an relentless and irresistible beat on the snare punctuated by cross-rhythms on the bass drum.

    Motown is also the label that I see as bringing drums to the foreground – seriously front and centre - on loads of smash hits. Check out the single mix of “25 Miles” by Edwin Starr and you’ll see what I mean.

    I’ve taken an almost lifelong interest in Motown drumming – simply because I think that it’s wonderful stuff - and I’d love to hear what others think about it, too.

    I therefore have a few questions that I’d like to put out there about Motown drumming in Detroit: -

    1. Do you have a favourite Motown drummer and, if so, why?
    2. Do you have a favourite era for Motown drums and, if so, why?
    3. How do you think the sad loss of Benny Benjamin affected Motown?
    4. Motown drumming in the late 60s and early 70s had a different feel to Motown drumming in the mid-60s. Why do you think this is? [[Could it have been the loss of Benny Benjamin, for instance? Or something else?)
    5. Would the dynamic duo of Uriel Jones on snare and toms and Richard “Pistol” Allen on hi-hat and cymbals have come into existence had Benny Benjamin still been around and on top form?

  2. #2
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    From what I've read, Motown used 2 different drummers on the same recording fairly regularly starting in 1964. So, if that is true, Benjamin was teemed with Allen or Jones on many recordings. Weren't both Benjamin and Allen on "My Girl"?

    They doubled up on guitar, as well. Those 2 elements, along with coordinated strings and horns, gave them the complex "Motown Sound". Yes, the driving drum beats became as important as James Jamerson on bass.
    Last edited by robb_k; 02-20-2017 at 05:18 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by robb_k View Post
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    From what I've read, Motown used 2 different drummers on the same recording fairly regularly starting in 1964. So, if that is true, Benjamin was teemed with Allen or Jones on many recordings. Weren't both Benjamin and Allen on "My Girl"?

    They doubled up on guitar, as well. Those 2 elements, along with coordinated strings and horns, gave them the complex "Motown Sound". Yes, the driving drum beats became as important as James Jamerson on bass.
    I know that they used two on "Going To A Go Go" and three on Marvin's recording of "Grapevine" but I get the sense - rightly or wrongly - that the majority of mid-60s hits had one drummer and, for me, part of the fun is working out just who played on what.

    As far as I can tell, the change really began with tracks like "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" by Marvin and Tammi and Gladys' version of "Grapevine" where, allegedly, Benny Benjamin was too drunk to keep time, so Uriel kept time [[as you can hear so well on the single mix) and Benny played some of the flash stuff in the intro.

    Then along came "Cloud Nine"....

  4. #4
    An interesting post and set of questions if I may so Sotosound, that might take a while to answer fully!

    Like you [[and no doubt many others), I have always had a love [[or is it an addiction?) for the Motown drum style and sound, and therefore great admiration for the three main drummers, Benny Benjamin, Richard 'Pistol' Allen, and Uriel Jones.

    Together they helped shape and form what has become known as the 'Motown Beat', it's style influencing many productions from other companies at the time, and of course today.

    Therefore, they are all my favourite, although [[and I'm sure Pistol & Uriel would agree) there was something unique and very special about Benny's playing, and he holds a very special place in my heart.

    And of course it was he who came up with the famous and much emulated and so called 'Tamla Roll', which graced many an intro and was present throughout many a Motown classic. His execution of it was of course unique, and has never been bettered, and is one of the easiest ways to tell who the drummer on a particular track was!

    Whilst he was of course crowned 'King of Studio A' when it came to the drums [[just as Jamerson was with the bass), it's worth remembering that by the mid 60s [[when Motown was starting to make an impact on the world with all those hits) Benny had reached his peak by this time, with his ever increasing drug and alcohol habit starting to take it's toll on him.

    And that's why Uriel and Pistol were so important when it came to the drumming on these tracks, because at least they weren't late for sessions, or into pawning the Studio A drum kit!

    It's fair to say that during the golden period [[1965-66), between them they probably played on more of the hits and released product than Benny, and carried this through till the company's final days in Detroit [[although of course they were joined in the late 60s by Andrew Smith, who was discovered by Hank Cosby).

    Of course during the 'Golden' period, both Pistol & Uriel tried to [[and in their own words) "Clone him", that was of course his style of playing that became famous on those classic Detroit productions.

    For a quick example, take a listen to the Tempts 'It's Growing', 'Since I Lost My Baby', and 'Don't Look Back' for a taste of Uriel doing his best Benny 'impression', and likewise, check out 'Get Ready', 'Take this Heart of Mine', 'Truly Yours', and 'It Takes Two' for a taste of Pistol's.

    As for the two drummers being used to replace Benny, that is in my opinion something of a myth [[as RobbK points out), they had being using two drummers from years earlier, and of course in certain cases, re-recorded drum tracks again once the 8 track recorder became the norm at Motown.

    [[Check out the thread I posted a few weeks back in which I linked a Youtube video of an acetate of the Tempts 'Get Ready' with the original drum track by Pistol, before he overdubbed the one that ended up on the released version, as an example of this).

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by bradburger; 02-20-2017 at 07:27 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Then along came "Cloud Nine"....
    Indeed!

    With Uriel & Spider Webb doing the honours on that track.

    Cheers

    Paul

  6. #6
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    Wow. Just checked that track out and it is different. So it wasn't Benny Benjamin on "Get Ready"?

    Spider and not Pistol on "Cloud Nine". Sheesh!

    Also, what tracks did Andrew Smith play on, and what was his style?
    Last edited by Sotosound; 02-20-2017 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Additional question

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Wow. Just checked that track out and it is different. So it wasn't Benny Benjamin on "Get Ready"?

    Spider and not Pistol on "Cloud Nine". Sheesh!

    Also, what tracks did Andrew Smith play on, and what was his style?
    Sotosound,

    I'm glad you enjoyed the original drums version of 'Get Ready'.

    I had heard in an interview with Smokey a while back that Quality Control were not too keen on the original drum track by Pistol as it was slightly unusual, so they wanted asked for it to have a more 'Motown style' one it. So Pistol then overdubbed his distinctive interpretation of the Motown beat, and QC seemed to have liked it!

    [[I had always wondered if a mix or indeed a multitrack still existed with the original drums on it, and thankfully the former did!)

    I believe Spider Webb came on board about the time of 'Cloud Nine' as was mentioned in the 'Emperors of Soul' box set book.

    I don't know how much solo stuff Andrew Smith did in his early days at Motown, but he may well have doubled up on some sessions with Pistol and Uriel.

    [[He of course was the drummer on the Pips 'Midnight Train to Georgia' along with Bob Babbitt on bass)

    If you looking for a way to identify Pistol, Benny, and Uriel, it's not quite as easy as Pistol [[rather modestly) makes out in Standing In the Shadows of Motown.

    As you'll probably have figured out, they all borrowed elements from each other, but at the same time had their own style and feel, which I guess also depended on what the producer did or did not want the drums to be like on their track, and the time period the track was cut in.

    Pistol tended to be a bit busier than the others, and [[as in the case of 'Get Ready'), would tend to put a skip and a shuffle in his playing. He also had a lighter and 'airier' sound to his playing, but at the same time, also a kind of 'snap' to his beat. He also seemed to be able to play the four-on-the flour' at break neck speed, with 'Tell Me It's Just A Rumour' and 'Nothing's Too Good For My Baby' being good examples of this.

    [[As a side note, I think this is where the confusion of him playing on 'Uptight' comes from, which was actually Benny).

    Uriel was nice and solid, and his beat sounded heavier than Pistols, whether in Benny 'clone mode' [[as on The Miracles 'My Girl Has Gone'), or in his distinctive later style used on 'You Keep Running Away', 'Twenty Five Miles', 'For Once in My Life', and 'Special Occasion' to name but a few. And like Pistol, he was versatile too.

    Benny. Well there is just something about his beat and tempo that is magical and locks in so well with the rest of the rhythm section, a fact that Paul Riser pointed out in Standing in the Shadows of Motown [["He was like a metronome"). Those who were lucky enough to be present in the studio with him and the other drummers mention how quietly they played when compared to some of today's drummers, yet Benny sounded like [[in the words of John Lennon), "He was hitting the drums with a bloody tree"!

    I tend to agree, and I would describe Benny's style as 'explosive', especially his so called 'Tamla Roll'!

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by bradburger; 02-20-2017 at 07:29 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by robb_k View Post
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    From what I've read, Motown used 2 different drummers on the same recording fairly regularly starting in 1964. So, if that is true, Benjamin was teemed with Allen or Jones on many recordings. Weren't both Benjamin and Allen on "My Girl"?

    They doubled up on guitar, as well. Those 2 elements, along with coordinated strings and horns, gave them the complex "Motown Sound". Yes, the driving drum beats became as important as James Jamerson on bass.
    Robb,

    'My Girl' as far as I am aware featured just Benny.

    Interesting point about the doubling up of the guitars.

    It's worth noting that they also did some sessions in 1965 using two basses - Jamerson along with Tony Newton. [[I'm sure the Supremes 'Love is Like An Itching In My Heart' was one of them).

    I believe the repeated the exercise when Babbitt came on to the scene, although I don't think they were very popular.

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by bradburger; 02-20-2017 at 07:08 PM.

  9. #9
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    I was living a fairly ordinary life up until 1985 when I heard a first generation compact disk with the song, "Tears Of A Clown" on it. This was the mix from the "Make It Happen" LP, not the 1970 hit single version, which I understand was slowed down. The sound coming through on the compact disk was so much improved over what was available before, that it was as though I was hearing music for the first time. That event changed my life! The fills, the speed, the innovation, and tastefulness knocked me out and I wasn't even a drummer! Since then I have become obsessed with Motown drumming. First of all, when I heard that song, I was 30 years old, and to the dismay of family, friends, and neighbors, purchased my first of many drum sets and started taking lessons. I devoured any book, article, or interview that had even a morsel of Motown drumming. I once asked the Detroit native, the late great Elvin Jones in a brief conversation that I had with him, what he thought about Benny Benjamin et al. Being the gentleman that he was, he said that, " they were nice". Though I suspect somehow that playing with John Coltrane during most of the "Motown Golden Age" probably did not lend itself to listening to much popular music.
    To this day, I incorporate a lot of what I have heard over the years in my playing. For example, I will play a straight pattern and incorporate a Tom accent from time to time, Think of "You Can't Hurry Love", or "This Old Heart of Mine". Or more often, I will play close to what the bass player is playing on my bass drum, or accent what he is playing, which bass players love, because while I am doing that, I make sure to stay out of the way.
    When reading about the Drummers, I early on thought that Benny was like James Jamerson, on every session, but as I heard the differences in styles, I have come to realize that Benny was there from day one, but Uriel, and Pistol, are shortchanged in the recognition department. Too bad, looking at "Standing In The Shadows of Motown", they came across as men who were very proud of the contribution that they made to modern music.

  10. #10
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    The drummer that I have most mixed feelings about is Uriel Jones.

    I have sometimes viewed his style as slightly slower or behind the beat than Benny or Pistol. It's like he sometimes slows things down a bit. There's a touch of snap missing.

    Also, I sometimes think that he is less creative than Benny or Pistol because his fills tend to be more repetitive in nature, i.e. he chooses a fill and uses it all the way through a track, whereas the other two guys often mix it up a bit.

    Then I listen to something like "25 Miles" by Edwin Starr and it turns my world upside down.

    Is it me?

  11. #11
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    In the late 90's Modern Drummer Magazine had a Drummers of Motown Cover and article in which it listed who played on what song. It is worth sourcing. I wish I knew where my copy that I was "saving" was.
    I was just thinking about a song that was not a big hit, Girl Why You Wanna Make Me Blue, again not a big hit, but I cannot think of another song ever that grabs your attention from the first snare hit. Brilliant!

  12. #12
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    Trying to work out who the drummer is!

    It sounds like someone trying to play like Pistol but without quite the same feel, or timing or variety.

    Uriel?

  13. #13
    1. The Four Tops- MY PAST JUST CROSSED MY FUTURE, YESTERDAY'S DREAMS, I'M IN A DIFFERENT WORLD, NO TIME, CAN'T STOP THIS FEELING
    2. Marvin and Tammi- LITTLE OLE BOY, LITTLE OLE GIRL
    3.Martha and the Vandellas and Blinky with Edwin Starr- I'M GLAD YOU BELONG TO ME.
    4. The Supremes- MOTHER DEAR,NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES, IM LIVING IN SHAME, I'M SO GLAD I GOT SOMEBODY LIKE YOU AROUND, WHEN ITS TO THE TOP [[STILL I WON'T STOP GIVING YOU LOVE)

    These songs have some unforgettable drum beats.
    Last edited by biggestfourtops fan; 02-22-2017 at 03:22 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggestfourtops fan View Post
    1. The Four Tops- MY PAST JUST CROSSED MY FUTURE, YESTERDAY'S DREAMS, I'M IN A DIFFERENT WORLD, NO TIME, CAN'T STOP THIS FEELING
    2. Marvin and Tammi- LITTLE OLE BOY, LITTLE OLE GIRL
    3.Martha and the Vandellas and Blinky with Edwin Starr- I'M GLAD YOU BELONG TO ME.
    4. The Supremes- MOTHER DEAR,NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES, IM LIVING IN SHAME, I'M SO GLAD I GOT SOMEBODY LIKE YOU AROUND, WHEN ITS TO THE TOP [[STILL I WON'T STOP GIVING YOU LOVE)

    These songs have some unforgettable drum beats.
    biggestfourtopsfan,
    Thank you for giving me a nice homework assignment for the weekend. As the BiggestFourTopsFan, I am sure you can appreciate "It's The Same Old Song", the opening snare fill could plow through the remaining snow that we have here in upstate NY.
    There is a wonderful individual who creates extended mixes of some Golden Age Motown Songs on YouTube. I don't think they have gotten to this song yet, but I would love to hear it.
    Also, lets not forget, "You Keep Running Away", I am thinking Benny B here. Killer post Golden Age track!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Trying to work out who the drummer is!

    It sounds like someone trying to play like Pistol but without quite the same feel, or timing or variety.

    Uriel?
    Yes, Uriel.

    But I'm going to have to disagree with you regarding Uriel's playing and style though Sotosound!

    A good solid beat, right on time, 365 days a year, whether in Benny 'Clone' mode, or his own style suited to the mood or production.

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by bradburger; 02-22-2017 at 11:52 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post

    As far as I can tell, the change really began with tracks like "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" by Marvin and Tammi....
    Sotosound,

    The basic track to what was to become the Marvin & Tammi version of ANMHE was cut at the recently acquired Hitsville/Golden World [[or Studio B as it would be known) on December 22, 1966, and as you know was initially a Tammi solo project.

    Benny was the drummer on the session, but when it became a duet track, Uriel dubbed on the extra set of drums, as can be heard on the duet version.

    Here are the two drum tracks from the Marvin & Tammi 8 track master - one of the many Hitsville Multitracks [[along with others from different companies) that were floating around the web several years ago: -

    https://soundcloud.com/brad-burger/a...s-drum-overdub

    Benny's original track is on the right, Uriel's overdub on the left.

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by bradburger; 02-22-2017 at 11:51 AM.

  17. #17
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    Thank you bradburger for the track to ANMHE
    I would imagine the producers Fuqua/Bristol's goal was to create a hit record , but not art, so if you had to overdub Uriel on the fills to achieve that, so be it, job well done. No one knew who the musicians were anyway. Also, the transition from the drum fills back to the main track is so tight, a shout out to the engineer, since in 1967 Pro Tools technology did not exist, and the editing had to be done by hand.

  18. #18
    No problem M4E.

    Glad you enjoyed it!

    It's interesting [[if you listen closely) to hear the metronome on Uriel's track, and that Benny's tempo seems to speed up a bit in places.

    And it does at least prove that the use of two drummers [[whether live or overdubbed) on a track was not something that happened after Benny passed away, as is often suggested.

    It's also interesting to hear the difference in the sound of the Studio B drum kit as well!

    Cheers

    Paul

  19. #19
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    "7 Rooms of Gloom"
    "Uptight"
    "Too Many Fish in the Sea"
    "Mickey's Monkey"
    "Do You Love Me"
    "Love is Like and Itching in My Heart"

    Some of my favorite drum tracks!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradburger View Post
    Sotosound,

    The basic track to what was to become the Marvin & Tammi version of ANMHE was cut at the recently acquired Hitsville/Golden World [[or Studio B as it would be known) on December 22, 1966, and as you know was initially a Tammi solo project.

    Benny was the drummer on the session, but when it became a duet track, Uriel dubbed on the extra set of drums, as can be heard on the duet version.

    Here are the two drum tracks from the Marvin & Tammi 8 track master - one of the many Hitsville Multitracks [[along with others from different companies) that were floating around the web several years ago: -

    https://soundcloud.com/brad-burger/a...s-drum-overdub

    Benny's original track is on the right, Uriel's overdub on the left.

    Cheers

    Paul
    Many thanks for posting this. It provides a great opportunity to hear Benny "unplugged".

    After listening to this I then had a listen to the original Tammi solo version of ANMHE with those male guide backing vocals and, sure enough, there's Benny without Uriel and the effect is less impactful than on the finished duet version.

    Lovely stuff.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockhartgary View Post
    "7 Rooms of Gloom"
    "Uptight"
    "Too Many Fish in the Sea"
    "Mickey's Monkey"
    "Do You Love Me"
    "Love is Like and Itching in My Heart"

    Some of my favorite drum tracks!!
    When I was a wee nipper of 20 I used the pause switch on my portable stereo cassette recorder to splice together the mono and stereo mixes of "7 Rooms of Gloom" to create an extended mix, and the join was done using Benny's explosive pick up from the point just before Levi starts singing "Bring You Back Into My Life". Great drumming.

    Also, "Uptight" in mono and the instrumental vesion of "Itching" from "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" are real showstoppers for me.

  22. #22
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    I believe that George McGregor claimed to have played on "Ain't no mountain high enough"...

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