The supremes "my world is empty without you" backing vocals mix !!!

[marv2]

Here's something truly great:

[BigAl]

Nice to hear this. I remember the first time I heard the song was on a car radio and I wasn't sure there even WERE any backing vocals! This track, with the lead vocal stripped out, attests to the fact that the background vocals are really barely even there. Mary and Flo are singing in unison so there's not even any harmony involved and they may as well not have even been singing at all. This has always been my least favorite of their singles for that reason. To all intents and purposes, it was a Diana Ross solo.

[luke]

Thanks! Feel same although nice to hear they really are there! Love the photo in black and white!!

[marv2]

This is one of my favorite Supremes songs . I love how Mary and Florence sound on background vocals.....superb!

[imakicola]

Nice to hear this. I remember the first time I heard the song was on a car radio and I wasn't sure there even WERE any backing vocals! This track, with the lead vocal stripped out, attests to the fact that the background vocals are really barely even there. Mary and Flo are singing in unison so there's not even any harmony involved and they may as well not have even been singing at all. This has always been my least favorite of their singles for that reason. To all intents and purposes, it was a Diana Ross solo.

To be fair when they made it big Flo and Mary often sang in unison and without harmonies on their singles.

Where Did Our Love Go
Baby Love
Stop! In the Name of Love
My World is Empty Without You
I Hear a Symphony
Love is Like an Itching in My Heart
You Can't Hurry Love
You Keep Me Hanging On
Love is Here and Now You're Gone

And actually the only singles they released in this lineup that had noticeable harmonies in the background, even a little, were:

Come See About Me
Back in My Arms Again
Nothing But Heartaches
The Happening

And after this lineup most of the recordings included the Andantes. Reflections had not so much actual "harmonies" between Mary and Flo/Marlene/Whomever but distinctly different complimentary parts for the chorus and unison for the rest.

[Ollie9]

From a personal point of view i really don't see the point in removing the lead. Records have generally never bought for their backing vocals. It was the lead vocal that sold the song.

[BigAl]

To be fair when they made it big Flo and Mary often sang in unison and without harmonies on their singles.

Where Did Our Love Go
Baby Love
Stop! In the Name of Love
My World is Empty Without You
I Hear a Symphony
Love is Like an Itching in My Heart
You Can't Hurry Love
You Keep Me Hanging On
Love is Here and Now You're Gone

Very true, but at least you could hear the backings more clearly.

"Where Did Our Love Go" sounds more like a duet between Diane and Mary. Flo's mike must have been turned WAY down on that one. [[Or maybe they placed her in the next room!)

[jobucats]

Here's my opinion, and it's just my opinion. I feel that the background vocals on "My World is Empty Without You" are actually unneeded musically. The oooooo lines, in my opinion, are rather awkward and weak throughout the song; NOT to the fault of Mary and Florence, but to the actual arrangement. The song is a great HDH song, Diana's vocal is so expressive, and in order for it to be assigned to the Supremes, it was, in my opinion, obligatory that background vocals be created. I love the Supremes' projects as a unit, however, this was not a 'unit' styled recording.

[marv2]

Here's my opinion, and it's just my opinion. I feel that the background vocals on "My World is Empty Without You" are actually unneeded musically. The oooooo lines, in my opinion, are rather awkward and weak throughout the song; NOT to the fault of Mary and Florence, but to the actual arrangement. The song is a great HDH song, Diana's vocal is so expressive, and in order for it to be assigned to the Supremes, it was, in my opinion, obligatory that background vocals be created. I love the Supremes' projects as a unit, however, this was not a 'unit' styled recording.

You need to hear them sing it live when Mary and Florence are allowed to use their power. It really gives the song some urgency, some force. It is a magnificent thing. They had to been told to tone it down a LOT in the studio recording session. Mary sings it now and the audience, along with her singers provide an ample background to it.

[marv2]

Here's a unique performance of the song with Mary singing the lead in 2014 along to a track that has her 22 year old self, along with Florence Ballard providing the backup:

[Ollie9]

Here's a unique performance of the song with Mary singing the lead in 2014 along to a track that has her 22 year old self, along with Florence Ballard providing the backup:

While considering Supremes songs are generally not best suited to Mary's smokey vocals, i think she does a very good job here. Not as good as Diana........but good all the same.

[marv2]

While considering Supremes songs are generally not best suited to Mary's smokey vocals, i think she does a very good job here. Not as good as Diana........but good all the same.

Have you heard Diana Ross lately? This clip is from the tail end of 2013.

[Ollie9]

Have you heard Diana Ross lately? This clip is from the tail end of 2013.

For two women who are now both in their 70's i think they continue to do a marvelous job. 'Tis true both Mary and Diana have sounded better in years past, but thats part of getting older. I still love them both as much as i ever did.
It's worth noting that on many occasions when singers a fraction of Diana's age attempt cover versions of Supreme/solo songs, that is when you realise just how special her voice was, and to some degree still is. All in my humble opinion of course.

[marv2]

For two women who are now both in their 70's i think they continue to do a marvelous job. 'Tis true both Mary and Diana have sounded better in years past, but thats part of getting older. I still love them both as much as i ever did.
It's worth noting that on many occasions when singers a fraction of Diana's age attempt cover versions of Supreme/solo songs, that is when you realise just how special her voice was, and to some degree still is. All in my humble opinion of course.

Nope, not true. Mary Wilson sounds excellent today.

[BigAl]

Here's my opinion, and it's just my opinion. I feel that the background vocals on "My World is Empty Without You" are actually unneeded musically. The oooooo lines, in my opinion, are rather awkward and weak throughout the song; NOT to the fault of Mary and Florence, but to the actual arrangement. The song is a great HDH song, Diana's vocal is so expressive, and in order for it to be assigned to the Supremes, it was, in my opinion, obligatory that background vocals be created. I love the Supremes' projects as a unit, however, this was not a 'unit' styled recording.

My sentiments exactly. The song as it was recorded is much better suited to a solo interpretation than to a group effort. The only other Hitsvillle act with whom it might have worked better would have been Brenda Holloway, and I don't believe HDH had worked with her, plus the fact was that she probably didn't have the popularity to sell it. The Supremes were on a roll at that point, coming off of "I Hear a Symphony," and I guess HDH just felt that this number was too good not to use as a follow-up.

As a song for a single vocalist, it does work beautifully for Mary these days. It's been the only Supremes' number which she includes in her "Up Close" set, and it always gets a great response from the audiences, many of whom sing right along, as Marv mentioned just a bit ago.

[luke]

Mary's voice has just gotten better and better. She is an anomaly In the music world

[Ollie9]

Nope, not true. Mary Wilson sounds excellent today.

I don't know why.........but i had a funny little feeling you might say that.
Ok, lets just say Mary does a fairly good job of a song which i think most would agree is PRACTICALLY a Diana Ross solo recording.

[Bluebrock]

I don't know why.........but i had a funny little feeling you might say that.
Ok, lets just say Mary does a fairly good job of a song which i think most would agree is PRACTICALLY a Diana Ross solo recording.

It is not worth getting into a war of words over Ollie. The song always has and always will be associated with Diana, and a so-so version by Mary Wilson is not going to change that. Mary's has indeed matured over the years, but let's be honest. It was a pretty unremarkable voice to start with. She began to find her true forte with the ballads on the final three Supremes albums but prior to that? Forget it. Now she usually does a decent job in her live shows and for that she deserves much praise but her versions of Supremes songs appeal to very few people except a select few for whom she is seen as something of a Messiah which we know she is anything but.

[marv2]

I don't know why.........but i had a funny little feeling you might say that.
Ok, lets just say Mary does a fairly good job of a song which i think most would agree is PRACTICALLY a Diana Ross solo recording.

Speaking of "I Don't Know Why"?

[daviddh]

on the I Hear A Symphony expanded edition there are two new Mixes on the cd ,one is My world Is Empty , where the backing vocals are mor eup front.it is my favorite version

[Ollie9]

Speaking of "I Don't Know Why"?

Now this is the type of song that really lends itself well to Marys mature vocals. The ending where she turns away made me laugh.
Diana's voice also lends itself well to the slower numbers these days. Singing songs such as "Don't Explain" and "Good Morning Heartache" prove that she still has it.
Long may they both continue.

[nomis]

I always thought "My World" was a great departure from the style of their previous singles -moody,sombre...and the begining of Diana using a touch of drama/acting in her performance..Marys voice maybe not unique but combined with Diana and Flo the result was sublime...

[vgalindo]

From a personal point of view i really don't see the point in removing the lead. Records have generally never bought for their backing vocals. It was the lead vocal that sold the song.

This is so true. This would have never sold without the lead voice of Diana Ross. I don't see the point of this mix at all.

[marv2]

This is so true. This would have never sold without the lead voice of Diana Ross. I don't see the point of this mix at all.

The point is the backing vocals and rhythm track was so superb that they could have put anyone on lead vocals and it would have sold!

[stingbeelee]

For those who don't see the "point" of these mixes; for me, it is a chance to hear the world famous Funk Brothers and the Detroit Symphony Orchestra strings; I love to hear them isolated; it never fails to astonish me just how good the Funk Bros. were! ..and that baritone sax; I love to hear it drop down to that low sound in the bridge!

[marv2]

For those who don't see the "point" of these mixes; for me, it is a chance to hear the world famous Funk Brothers and the Detroit Symphony Orchestra strings; I love to hear them isolated; it never fails to astonish me just how good the Funk Bros. were! ..and that baritone sax; I love to hear it drop down to that low sound in the bridge!

The Funks Brothers were excellent. They were "The Motown Sound"!

[vgalindo]

The point is the backing vocals and rhythm track was so superb that they could have put anyone on lead vocals and it would have sold!

I disagree the lead vocal was so superb they could have put or taken away the background and it still would have sold! Agree to disagree!!!

[Ollie9]

I disagree the lead vocal was so superb they could have put or taken away the background and it still would have sold! Agree to disagree!!!

This is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It could easily have been the Andantes voices on those early Supremes singles and they still would have sold in bucket loads. Add to the mix Diana's unique, pleading and radio friendly voice up front and you have a no lose situation.
Live performances were a different thing altogether. In concert Flo and Mary were an essential ingredient to the the Supremes success with each woman contributing to the group as a whole. In fact i have always thought it is Mary, not Flo or Diana that gives the best performance when singing standards such as "People" live.
After 67 Diana may as well have been classified as a solo act. It was all her.

[brothadc]

I don't know why the background vocals on this particular Supremes song have become so important and such an issue. It seems that folks are looking at the issue from a sentimental standpoint, as opposed to looking at the song from a production point of view and keeping in mind that this is a business, this is the music business! It is the job of the producer to make decisions as to what works best for a song musically, creatively, technically, conceptually, all that!

So, let's talk about the song. The title is My World Is Empty Without You. The first line of the first verse is "And as I go my way alone". Those two things in and of themselves basically call for more of a solo presence from the interpreter of the lyrics, the one who's telling the story. Conceptually it works. Simple! Now, after listening to that backgrounds only mix, there's all the more reason why the backgrounds should have been low in the mix. As far as background performances is concerned, that was not great at all. There are quite a few moments where the notes are flat, off pitch, the first instance being in the opening chorus, the "you" in the second time they sing the hook. There are moments Mary and Flo are slightly out of tune with each other, and a little out of sync rhythmically with each other. On the beginning of the last verse it sounds like one of the girls missed the beginning of the word "you". The overall performance was, as jobucats put it, a bit awkward and weak, and technically a bit sloppy and lazy, and somewhat uninspired, so they needed to be low in the mix to cover all of that up.

Yo, I'm as sentimental as the next dude, and as a little kid I fell madly in love with The Supremes, very madly! But, from studying music virtually all of my life, to entering the business as a tour musician, then a recording artist, to becoming a songwriter and a producer, I don't look at it like "oh my goodness, there are three girls in the group but I can't hear the other two as much as the one girl!" I now look at everything from a business point of view and through the eyes of a producer. That being said, it is clearly that hot track that the Funk Brothers are spectacular on, and Diana's incredible interpolation and performance that are the shining elements of the song, which is most likely why the song was mixed the way it was in the first place, along with the concept of the song lyrically.

As a kid growing up with my whole world being the music of Motown, primarily The Supremes, I, just like everyone else, had no idea that there were songs that Mary, Flo, or Cindy weren't singing on. Once that information started coming out and we as fans began to become aware of that, I wasn't mad about it. I didn't feel like I had been cheated or deceived but I was intrigued! I found that to be very interesting. I started going back, listening to everything, and what's really interesting is now I can easily hear who's singing, or not singing what.

Singing backgrounds calls for an altogether different technique than singing lead. You have to know how to blend with other singers, or with yourself if you're stacking vocals. You have to know how to stay in the pocket. You have to make sure that the phrasing is uniform, making sure that you begin and end each phrase, and every word of the phrase together. You have to know how to make the enunciation of every consonant is tight, and most importantly, you have to know how stay in tune, right on pitch. I'll never forget the first time I saw Freddie Jackson live in concert. His background singers were absolutely amazing. I was standing right in front of the stage looking at those three young ladies in awe because it literally sounded like one person singing three notes, three part harmony. They were so tight it was unbelievable!

I think what Mary and Flo should have done was got together and said "ok, check this out right, Diana has been determined as the lead vocalist, and we're having hit after hit after hit, so we're gonna focus and work our butts off to being the best background vocalists in the world! Our vocals are gonna be so tight, and so great that folks are going to be buying our records for the backgrounds as well. But no, they were too busy trying to compete with Diana. Prime example, in the live performances that I've seen of Where Did Our Love Go, they weren't singing those backgrounds tight, together and in the pocket like they should have been performed, they, especially Mary, were singing the title of the song big, loud and loose like they were singing lead, almost like they were trying to take over the lead from Diana.

One evening last week I was over at Mickey's house having a great conversation with him and his son Novel. I told Mickey that someone in the Soulful Detroit Forum quoted what he said about Diana in his book. Then we got to talking about The Supremes. He said that Diana studied and worked harder than anybody. Part of his job as the A&R man was to make sure that all the artists attended, on time, all of the rehearsals and all of the artist development classes. He said that while Diana would be studying hard, working hard, learning all that she could, staying late longer than she was required to, sometimes the other girls would be talking, going to get on the phone, even leaving early to fly out to hook up with some boyfriend. [[Guess who!)

So, y'all, it's time to let this shit go! What has happened in the past has happened, and there ain't nothing anyone can do to change it. At the end of the day we have a wonderful group that we fell in love with, and beautiful incredible music that is timeless and has gone down in history as having changed the world. Understand that this is first and foremost a business. Understand that decisions are made in regards to what is best for the product that is being sold. Understand that just because an individual may be fortunate enough to be signed under contract as a member of a group that that in and of itself does not mean that that individual is the absolute best suited to handle certain tasks when it comes down to what's best for the product. Just yesterday I had a friend of mine tell me that she was initially hired to record some demo vocals, then was subsequently told that a decision was being made to secretly release her vocals as the vocals of the artist. I'm not mentioning any names, but I'm talking about a major artist that I'm sure many of you are familiar with. Hey, it happens. This is a tough BUSINESS!!

[jobucats]

To brothadc, Excellent post in every sense.

[marv2]

I don't know why the background vocals on this particular Supremes song have become so important and such an issue. It seems that folks are looking at the issue from a sentimental standpoint, as opposed to looking at the song from a production point of view and keeping in mind that this is a business, this is the music business! It is the job of the producer to make decisions as to what works best for a song musically, creatively, technically, conceptually, all that!

So, let's talk about the song. The title is My World Is Empty Without You. The first line of the first verse is "And as I go my way alone". Those two things in and of themselves basically call for more of a solo presence from the interpreter of the lyrics, the one who's telling the story. Conceptually it works. Simple! Now, after listening to that backgrounds only mix, there's all the more reason why the backgrounds should have been low in the mix. As far as background performances is concerned, that was not great at all. There are quite a few moments where the notes are flat, off pitch, the first instance being in the opening chorus, the "you" in the second time they sing the hook. There are moments Mary and Flo are slightly out of tune with each other, and a little out of sync rhythmically with each other. On the beginning of the last verse it sounds like one of the girls missed the beginning of the word "you". The overall performance was, as jobucats put it, a bit awkward and weak, and technically a bit sloppy and lazy, and somewhat uninspired, so they needed to be low in the mix to cover all of that up.

Yo, I'm as sentimental as the next dude, and as a little kid I fell madly in love with The Supremes, very madly! But, from studying music virtually all of my life, to entering the business as a tour musician, then a recording artist, to becoming a songwriter and a producer, I don't look at it like "oh my goodness, there are three girls in the group but I can't hear the other two as much as the one girl!" I now look at everything from a business point of view and through the eyes of a producer. That being said, it is clearly that hot track that the Funk Brothers are spectacular on, and Diana's incredible interpolation and performance that are the shining elements of the song, which is most likely why the song was mixed the way it was in the first place, along with the concept of the song lyrically.

As a kid growing up with my whole world being the music of Motown, primarily The Supremes, I, just like everyone else, had no idea that there were songs that Mary, Flo, or Cindy weren't singing on. Once that information started coming out and we as fans began to become aware of that, I wasn't mad about it. I didn't feel like I had been cheated or deceived but I was intrigued! I found that to be very interesting. I started going back, listening to everything, and what's really interesting is now I can easily hear who's singing, or not singing what.

Singing backgrounds calls for an altogether different technique than singing lead. You have to know how to blend with other singers, or with yourself if you're stacking vocals. You have to know how to stay in the pocket. You have to make sure that the phrasing is uniform, making sure that you begin and end each phrase, and every word of the phrase together. You have to know how to make the enunciation of every consonant is tight, and most importantly, you have to know how stay in tune, right on pitch. I'll never forget the first time I saw Freddie Jackson live in concert. His background singers were absolutely amazing. I was standing right in front of the stage looking at those three young ladies in awe because it literally sounded like one person singing three notes, three part harmony. They were so tight it was unbelievable!

I think what Mary and Flo should have done was got together and said "ok, check this out right, Diana has been determined as the lead vocalist, and we're having hit after hit after hit, so we're gonna focus and work our butts off to being the best background vocalists in the world! Our vocals are gonna be so tight, and so great that folks are going to be buying our records for the backgrounds as well. But no, they were too busy trying to compete with Diana. Prime example, in the live performances that I've seen of Where Did Our Love Go, they weren't singing those backgrounds tight, together and in the pocket like they should have been performed, they, especially Mary, were singing the title of the song big, loud and loose like they were singing lead, almost like they were trying to take over the lead from Diana.

One evening last week I was over at Mickey's house having a great conversation with him and his son Novel. I told Mickey that someone in the Soulful Detroit Forum quoted what he said about Diana in his book. Then we got to talking about The Supremes. He said that Diana studied and worked harder than anybody. Part of his job as the A&R man was to make sure that all the artists attended, on time, all of the rehearsals and all of the artist development classes. He said that while Diana would be studying hard, working hard, learning all that she could, staying late longer than she was required to, sometimes the other girls would be talking, going to get on the phone, even leaving early to fly out to hook up with some boyfriend. [[Guess who!)

So, y'all, it's time to let this shit go! What has happened in the past has happened, and there ain't nothing anyone can do to change it. At the end of the day we have a wonderful group that we fell in love with, and beautiful incredible music that is timeless and has gone down in history as having changed the world. Understand that this is first and foremost a business. Understand that decisions are made in regards to what is best for the product that is being sold. Understand that just because an individual may be fortunate enough to be signed under contract as a member of a group that that in and of itself does not mean that that individual is the absolute best suited to handle certain tasks when it comes down to what's best for the product. Just yesterday I had a friend of mine tell me that she was initially hired to record some demo vocals, then was subsequently told that a decision was being made to secretly release her vocals as the vocals of the artist. I'm not mentioning any names, but I'm talking about a major artist that I'm sure many of you are familiar with. Hey, it happens. This is a tough BUSINESS!!

Yeah, well but he didn't tell you everything. He didn't tell you that Diane needed the extra work, the extra help where the other girls didn't! She was a Tomboy.........!

[luke]

A number of producers at Motown commented on how good they all were. One producer said something to the effect it was freaky how good they all were and how fast they caught on. And some producers have commented on how difficult Diana could be recording. Just reporting the facts as I have read them. Mary and Florence and Cindy were not wanted at times to record. I remember reading how Diana went off about Cindy not working as hard as she recording and Cindy not even asked to record ! Makes no sense!

[Roberta75]

I don't know why the background vocals on this particular Supremes song have become so important and such an issue. It seems that folks are looking at the issue from a sentimental standpoint, as opposed to looking at the song from a production point of view and keeping in mind that this is a business, this is the music business! It is the job of the producer to make decisions as to what works best for a song musically, creatively, technically, conceptually, all that!

So, let's talk about the song. The title is My World Is Empty Without You. The first line of the first verse is "And as I go my way alone". Those two things in and of themselves basically call for more of a solo presence from the interpreter of the lyrics, the one who's telling the story. Conceptually it works. Simple! Now, after listening to that backgrounds only mix, there's all the more reason why the backgrounds should have been low in the mix. As far as background performances is concerned, that was not great at all. There are quite a few moments where the notes are flat, off pitch, the first instance being in the opening chorus, the "you" in the second time they sing the hook. There are moments Mary and Flo are slightly out of tune with each other, and a little out of sync rhythmically with each other. On the beginning of the last verse it sounds like one of the girls missed the beginning of the word "you". The overall performance was, as jobucats put it, a bit awkward and weak, and technically a bit sloppy and lazy, and somewhat uninspired, so they needed to be low in the mix to cover all of that up.

Yo, I'm as sentimental as the next dude, and as a little kid I fell madly in love with The Supremes, very madly! But, from studying music virtually all of my life, to entering the business as a tour musician, then a recording artist, to becoming a songwriter and a producer, I don't look at it like "oh my goodness, there are three girls in the group but I can't hear the other two as much as the one girl!" I now look at everything from a business point of view and through the eyes of a producer. That being said, it is clearly that hot track that the Funk Brothers are spectacular on, and Diana's incredible interpolation and performance that are the shining elements of the song, which is most likely why the song was mixed the way it was in the first place, along with the concept of the song lyrically.

As a kid growing up with my whole world being the music of Motown, primarily The Supremes, I, just like everyone else, had no idea that there were songs that Mary, Flo, or Cindy weren't singing on. Once that information started coming out and we as fans began to become aware of that, I wasn't mad about it. I didn't feel like I had been cheated or deceived but I was intrigued! I found that to be very interesting. I started going back, listening to everything, and what's really interesting is now I can easily hear who's singing, or not singing what.

Singing backgrounds calls for an altogether different technique than singing lead. You have to know how to blend with other singers, or with yourself if you're stacking vocals. You have to know how to stay in the pocket. You have to make sure that the phrasing is uniform, making sure that you begin and end each phrase, and every word of the phrase together. You have to know how to make the enunciation of every consonant is tight, and most importantly, you have to know how stay in tune, right on pitch. I'll never forget the first time I saw Freddie Jackson live in concert. His background singers were absolutely amazing. I was standing right in front of the stage looking at those three young ladies in awe because it literally sounded like one person singing three notes, three part harmony. They were so tight it was unbelievable!

I think what Mary and Flo should have done was got together and said "ok, check this out right, Diana has been determined as the lead vocalist, and we're having hit after hit after hit, so we're gonna focus and work our butts off to being the best background vocalists in the world! Our vocals are gonna be so tight, and so great that folks are going to be buying our records for the backgrounds as well. But no, they were too busy trying to compete with Diana. Prime example, in the live performances that I've seen of Where Did Our Love Go, they weren't singing those backgrounds tight, together and in the pocket like they should have been performed, they, especially Mary, were singing the title of the song big, loud and loose like they were singing lead, almost like they were trying to take over the lead from Diana.

One evening last week I was over at Mickey's house having a great conversation with him and his son Novel. I told Mickey that someone in the Soulful Detroit Forum quoted what he said about Diana in his book. Then we got to talking about The Supremes. He said that Diana studied and worked harder than anybody. Part of his job as the A&R man was to make sure that all the artists attended, on time, all of the rehearsals and all of the artist development classes. He said that while Diana would be studying hard, working hard, learning all that she could, staying late longer than she was required to, sometimes the other girls would be talking, going to get on the phone, even leaving early to fly out to hook up with some boyfriend. [[Guess who!)

So, y'all, it's time to let this shit go! What has happened in the past has happened, and there ain't nothing anyone can do to change it. At the end of the day we have a wonderful group that we fell in love with, and beautiful incredible music that is timeless and has gone down in history as having changed the world. Understand that this is first and foremost a business. Understand that decisions are made in regards to what is best for the product that is being sold. Understand that just because an individual may be fortunate enough to be signed under contract as a member of a group that that in and of itself does not mean that that individual is the absolute best suited to handle certain tasks when it comes down to what's best for the product. Just yesterday I had a friend of mine tell me that she was initially hired to record some demo vocals, then was subsequently told that a decision was being made to secretly release her vocals as the vocals of the artist. I'm not mentioning any names, but I'm talking about a major artist that I'm sure many of you are familiar with. Hey, it happens. This is a tough BUSINESS!!

Preach my friend preach. Best post of the month.

Fondly,

Roberta

[marv2]

A number of producers at Motown commented on how good they all were. One producer said something to the effect it was freaky how good they all were and how fast they caught on. And some producers have commented on how difficult Diana could be recording. Just reporting the facts as I have read them. Mary and Florence and Cindy were not wanted at times to record. I remember reading how Diana went off about Cindy not working as hard as she recording and Cindy not even asked to record ! Makes no sense!

Exactly! They always leave out that part of the story.

[BigAl]

A number of producers at Motown commented on how good they all were. One producer said something to the effect it was freaky how good they all were and how fast they caught on. And some producers have commented on how difficult Diana could be recording. Just reporting the facts as I have read them. Mary and Florence and Cindy were not wanted at times to record. I remember reading how Diana went off about Cindy not working as hard as she recording and Cindy not even asked to record ! Makes no sense!

Exactly! They always leave out that part of the story.

Performers who are perfectionists are, by all accounts, a producer's nightmare. In their relentless striving for excellence they'll do something like forty takes, not happy with any of them, and then go back and select the first or second one they did! [[Dusty Springfield was famous for this, and I imagine Diane was probably similarly inclined.) Great for the finished product but one hell of a ride getting there.

[Ollie9]

Exactly! They always leave out that part of the story.

Your missing the point. Brothadc was commenting that from a technical point of view Flo and Marys background parts on certain recordings were not always on point.
Again this underscores the fact that at the end of the day it did not really matter who was singing background behind Diana on those hits. It was the song, the band, production and Diana's unique and commercial voice that made it all happen. Even in the 60's people did not buy records for the backing vocalists.

[luke]

From what I have read it seemed like she just didn't want to give a lot of effort. Like when Johnny Bristol had to join her to get her into Soemday We'll be together and a similar experience with Hal Davis trying to get her into Love Hangover I read she would get furious with Michael Masser as HE wanted perfection. Maybe I haven't read other info that she's a perfectionist

[luke]

HDH and other have raved about Mary and Flos background contributions and had them sing to their specifications. The key was the song. Diana was good and so was Flo and Mary. I doubt Eddie would've wanted Mary to sing lead on Where Did Our Love Go if he didnt think she was good too. Otis Williams raves about Florences voice. They all had it.

[marv2]

From what I have read it seemed like she just didn't want to give a lot of effort. Like when Johnny Bristol had to join her to get her into Soemday We'll be together and a similar experience with Hal Davis trying to get her into Love Hangover I read she would get furious with Michael Masser as HE wanted perfection. Maybe I haven't read other info that she's a perfectionist

Add to that when she went in with the Bee Gees to record, she was totally unprepared and did not know the lyrics to the songs they written for her. They were none too happy about working with her because of that.

[marv2]

HDH and other have raved about Mary and Flos background contributions and had them sing to their specifications. The key was the song. Diana was good and so was Flo and Mary. I doubt Eddie would've wanted Mary to sing lead on Where Did Our Love Go if he didnt think she was good too. Otis Williams raves about Florences voice. They all had it.

Which caused a problem when only one was used as lead all the time.

[luke]

Apparently Ashford and Simpson had the magic touch with her!

[marv2]

Your missing the point. Brothadc was commenting that from a technical point of view Flo and Marys background parts on certain recordings were not always on point.
Again this underscores the fact that at the end of the day it did not really matter who was singing background behind Diana on those hits. It was the song, the band, production and Diana's unique and commercial voice that made it all happen. Even in the 60's people did not buy records for the backing vocalists.

Explain then why does everyone remember the background to those records? Also explain why they had 8 or flops with Diana's unique and commercial voice before hitting with "Where Did Our Love Go?" Why has Diana's unique and commercial voice has not been able to sell many records in the last 35 years that she's been active?

[Ollie9]

Thats easy....

Question 1. Everyone talks about the backing vocals because most are interested in anything that Diana Ross has sung on. No Diana = reduced interest.

Question 2. They had 8 flops because the songs were not very strong. I mean "Buttered Popcorn....I ask you.

Question 3. 35 years??. Since 81, Diana has enjoyed many hit singles and albums all over the world. Her solo compilation albums continue to sell well even now.

[Ollie9]

I don't know why the background vocals on this particular Supremes song have become so important and such an issue. It seems that folks are looking at the issue from a sentimental standpoint, as opposed to looking at the song from a production point of view and keeping in mind that this is a business, this is the music business! It is the job of the producer to make decisions as to what works best for a song musically, creatively, technically, conceptually, all that!

So, let's talk about the song. The title is My World Is Empty Without You. The first line of the first verse is "And as I go my way alone". Those two things in and of themselves basically call for more of a solo presence from the interpreter of the lyrics, the one who's telling the story. Conceptually it works. Simple! Now, after listening to that backgrounds only mix, there's all the more reason why the backgrounds should have been low in the mix. As far as background performances is concerned, that was not great at all. There are quite a few moments where the notes are flat, off pitch, the first instance being in the opening chorus, the "you" in the second time they sing the hook. There are moments Mary and Flo are slightly out of tune with each other, and a little out of sync rhythmically with each other. On the beginning of the last verse it sounds like one of the girls missed the beginning of the word "you". The overall performance was, as jobucats put it, a bit awkward and weak, and technically a bit sloppy and lazy, and somewhat uninspired, so they needed to be low in the mix to cover all of that up.

Yo, I'm as sentimental as the next dude, and as a little kid I fell madly in love with The Supremes, very madly! But, from studying music virtually all of my life, to entering the business as a tour musician, then a recording artist, to becoming a songwriter and a producer, I don't look at it like "oh my goodness, there are three girls in the group but I can't hear the other two as much as the one girl!" I now look at everything from a business point of view and through the eyes of a producer. That being said, it is clearly that hot track that the Funk Brothers are spectacular on, and Diana's incredible interpolation and performance that are the shining elements of the song, which is most likely why the song was mixed the way it was in the first place, along with the concept of the song lyrically.

As a kid growing up with my whole world being the music of Motown, primarily The Supremes, I, just like everyone else, had no idea that there were songs that Mary, Flo, or Cindy weren't singing on. Once that information started coming out and we as fans began to become aware of that, I wasn't mad about it. I didn't feel like I had been cheated or deceived but I was intrigued! I found that to be very interesting. I started going back, listening to everything, and what's really interesting is now I can easily hear who's singing, or not singing what.

Singing backgrounds calls for an altogether different technique than singing lead. You have to know how to blend with other singers, or with yourself if you're stacking vocals. You have to know how to stay in the pocket. You have to make sure that the phrasing is uniform, making sure that you begin and end each phrase, and every word of the phrase together. You have to know how to make the enunciation of every consonant is tight, and most importantly, you have to know how stay in tune, right on pitch. I'll never forget the first time I saw Freddie Jackson live in concert. His background singers were absolutely amazing. I was standing right in front of the stage looking at those three young ladies in awe because it literally sounded like one person singing three notes, three part harmony. They were so tight it was unbelievable!

I think what Mary and Flo should have done was got together and said "ok, check this out right, Diana has been determined as the lead vocalist, and we're having hit after hit after hit, so we're gonna focus and work our butts off to being the best background vocalists in the world! Our vocals are gonna be so tight, and so great that folks are going to be buying our records for the backgrounds as well. But no, they were too busy trying to compete with Diana. Prime example, in the live performances that I've seen of Where Did Our Love Go, they weren't singing those backgrounds tight, together and in the pocket like they should have been performed, they, especially Mary, were singing the title of the song big, loud and loose like they were singing lead, almost like they were trying to take over the lead from Diana.

One evening last week I was over at Mickey's house having a great conversation with him and his son Novel. I told Mickey that someone in the Soulful Detroit Forum quoted what he said about Diana in his book. Then we got to talking about The Supremes. He said that Diana studied and worked harder than anybody. Part of his job as the A&R man was to make sure that all the artists attended, on time, all of the rehearsals and all of the artist development classes. He said that while Diana would be studying hard, working hard, learning all that she could, staying late longer than she was required to, sometimes the other girls would be talking, going to get on the phone, even leaving early to fly out to hook up with some boyfriend. [[Guess who!)

So, y'all, it's time to let this shit go! What has happened in the past has happened, and there ain't nothing anyone can do to change it. At the end of the day we have a wonderful group that we fell in love with, and beautiful incredible music that is timeless and has gone down in history as having changed the world. Understand that this is first and foremost a business. Understand that decisions are made in regards to what is best for the product that is being sold. Understand that just because an individual may be fortunate enough to be signed under contract as a member of a group that that in and of itself does not mean that that individual is the absolute best suited to handle certain tasks when it comes down to what's best for the product. Just yesterday I had a friend of mine tell me that she was initially hired to record some demo vocals, then was subsequently told that a decision was being made to secretly release her vocals as the vocals of the artist. I'm not mentioning any names, but I'm talking about a major artist that I'm sure many of you are familiar with. Hey, it happens. This is a tough BUSINESS!!

brothadc, your insightful, balanced and intelligent post made for great reading.
Many thanks for posting.
Ollie.

[marv2]

Apparently Ashford and Simpson had the magic touch with her!

Apparently they had more than just the magic touch. I've heard stories that they did some of the singing for her too! LOL!

[BigAl]

From what I have read it seemed like she just didn't want to give a lot of effort. Like when Johnny Bristol had to join her to get her into Soemday We'll be together and a similar experience with Hal Davis trying to get her into Love Hangover I read she would get furious with Michael Masser as HE wanted perfection. Maybe I haven't read other info that she's a perfectionist

When I made the comment about performers being sticklers for perfection in the studio and suggested that might apply to Diane, it was just conjecture, and I know of no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this was the case at all. Mea culpa.

[detmotownguy]

Explain then why does everyone remember the background to those records? Also explain why they had 8 or flops with Diana's unique and commercial voice before hitting with "Where Did Our Love Go?" Why has Diana's unique and commercial voice has not been able to sell many records in the last 35 years that she's been active?

Hey Marv. Just another worthless thread trying to diminish the value of other group members. Yawn....

[marv2]

Hey Marv. Just another worthless thread trying to diminish the value of other group members. Yawn....

Isn't that something? I started this thread just to share that great track with Mary, Florence and Funk Brothers Try as some may, you cannot change history or the greatness that was the Supremes....all 3 not 1. None of them will ever be bigger than the group!

[BigAl]

Isn't that something? I started this thread just to share that great track with Mary, Florence and Funk Brothers Try as some may, you cannot change history or the greatness that was the Supremes....all 3 not 1. None of them will ever be bigger than the group!

Well, any time a '60s-Supremes-related item is posted, highlighting only one or two group members, not all three, we can then expect a firestorm to ensue. All the business of, "My Supreme's better than your Supreme…nyaah nyaah nyaah!" would annoy me if it weren't so hugely entertaining!

[jobeterob]

The honey bee stings a little bit harder when Diana gets Presidential Medals of Freedom and Grammy Lifetime Achievement Awards.

But the group ended in 1966 - the guys at Universal have always said that. They just don't want to post it publicly on here and send anyone over the deep end because Diana rode the limo alone after 66.

But she did get Mary and Florence mentioned by President Obama during the presentation.