Reflections: Florence Ballard?

[captainjames]

yes you are right ----
its a good record but Flo is not there and Mary may not of been or overdub. Wow that was a long time ago.

Mary likes to protect Flo, the legacy and the image of the group. Mary will not publicly admit Florence is not on those songs. The fact is Flo missed recording sessions and she is not on several recordings. That's a fact. It's one of the reasons why she was fired. Florence not being on "Reflections" fits into the timeline of events beginning in April with Florence being sent home, Diana and Mary duo show, Marlene Barrow being flown in for the rest of the shows, the meeting at Gordy's mansion, Cindy's first appearance at the Hollywood Bowl, and then Florence's reappearance on Ed Sullivan. Listen to those vocals. It's pretty telling.

[marv2]

Mary likes to protect Flo, the legacy and the image of the group. Mary will not publicly admit Florence is not on those songs. The fact is Flo missed recording sessions and she is not on several recordings. That's a fact. It's one of the reasons why she was fired. Florence not being on "Reflections" fits into the timeline of events beginning in April with Florence being sent home, Diana and Mary duo show, Marlene Barrow being flown in for the rest of the shows, the meeting at Gordy's mansion, Cindy's first appearance at the Hollywood Bowl, and then Florence's reappearance on Ed Sullivan. Listen to those vocals. It's pretty telling.

Yeah and you know what? All that is nice,but the fact remains we were not there. Mary Wilson was there. Heck at that time I was only 7 years old and could have care less about what was going on up in Detroit with the Supremes LOL! I have to go with Mary said and my own ears.

She just did not miss THAT recording session. I hear her on that song.

[marv2]

yes you are right ----
its a good record but Flo is not there and Mary may not of been or overdub. Wow that was a long time ago.

He is not right, Mary Wilson one of the Original Supremes is right. She was right there when all of this stuff happened. Mary and Florence are singing together on "Reflections". You must have really listen to the song. For like the at least 5th time since I've been a member of Soulful Detroit:

[marv2]

and remember Captain James......."cause nothing's real" LOL! Listen to my ladies sounding so good on the background in the clip above!

Strange you believed Mary when she said that neither she or Cindy Birdsong were on "Love Child" or "Someday We'll Be Together", but with "Reflections" all of sudden she doesn't know what she is talking about? GTFO! LOL!!!

[luke]

Lolol. Good point. Selective reporting

[imakicola]

It is extremely clear to me, in the recording that the higher voice in the back in Reflections is *exactly* **IDENTICAL** to the higher voice in the back of Love Child.

[floyjoy678]

Florence was back in the group for at least a week by the time reflections was recorded. There's no reason why they wouldn't have used her in the studio. She was also on probation at this time, so if she was a no show wouldn't have she been fired then? Also don't agree with her not being on You can't hurry love. I hear her underneath Mary.

With all that being said I do think the backgrounds on Reflections sound horrible.

[captainjames]

Mary and Flo are not on Reflections.

[captainjames]

Berry did Berry around this time.
1967 was about Diana ..............................

[nomis]

Flo's termination wasnt so cut and dried..Berry had the most successful group in the U.S. and he was scared to change the formula for fear of public reaction..yes Cindy was waiting in the wings but that was "just in case"..the night before she was fired there was no sign of trouble - Flo,Mary Diana and many female Gordy family members had a night of celebrations..Flo was hung over when she arrived to prep for her final show and was enraged by the sight of Cindys costume [[which she wasnt meant to see)..and by her own admission - "I had me some drinks" and went on stage drunk...as for the recording of "Reflections" by 1967 HDH were using extensive over dub sessions and Mary Flo and Diana would record their parts many times seperatley on different dates its also important to note that when the Andantes were added to "The Happening" Flos complaint to Gordy on using them caused him to delete their vocals from the release as I stated above - Gordy didnt want to meddle with the winning formula..if Flo had listened to Berrys sister and gone on stage for the next performance after he told her she was thru Gordy wouldnt have dared throw off stage as he threatened to do..sadly Flo had more power and leverage in the situation than she knew - she didnt help herself turning up to the final meeting being despondent and not talking when it came to the crunch the exhaustion of their work schedule had defeated her

[daviddh]

Reflections was also going to be the last single by the supremes ,with the departure Florence and HDH.motown felt the supremes would never recover. it was decided to bring Flo back issue the blue hits lp and a farewell tour.diana bucked and didn't want to leave yet and the group was saved ....but with Cindy getting the job.

[daviddh]

I cant tell who sang backing vocals on Reflections.its one of my favorites, I am assuming it is Mary and Florence but I honestly cant tell. I remember a Motown insider stating it was Florence on this and that it was recorded around the same time as a few others. I think I hear MW but not Florence but ....who knows for sure....at this point...I don't care,
some people dig their own grave and I am thinking that is what Flo did . usually I cant hear the Mary and Flo harmony but I can not tell with this.still a favorite song of mine.

[franjoy56]

>it does not matter if flo is or is not on reflections because that record was the first recording labeled diana ross and the supremes and flo wanted no part of that billing. What does matter is that flo and mary back diana on 10 number ones since ychl has been proven to be flo on t track. The world knew the original supremes has diana mary and flo and florences vocals from meet the supremes all t way thru the rogers and hart lp and t greatest hits vol 2 are well represented and thts all that matters. After flo left the sound no longer had that distinct sound we so remrmber on records like come see about me baby love back in my arms again, nothing but heartaches, love is like an itching in my heart, just to name a few like diana said florence had this incredible voice and thats what mattered no matter what happened behind closed doors!

[franjoy56]

If you want to hear mary and flo blend listen to the country western album the more hits album, the rogers and hart album,, the liverpool sessions and the go go sessions.

[franjoy56]

And lastly but not least the supremes at the copa and the supremes live at the roostertail from the symphony expanded set. Flo is heard in all her glory.

[marv2]

If you want to hear mary and flo blend listen to the country western album the more hits album, the rogers and hart album,, the liverpool sessions and the go go sessions.

The harmonies on "A Breathtaking Guy" are heavenly...................

[nomis]

Flo is glorious on the live "Anyone Who Had A heart" included on the "Meet The Supremes" expanded edition

[imakicola]

Didn't the andantes do the Christmas album?

[captainjames]

On the newly released singles collection of 2011, Florence was only on as lead, in two unused tracks, one of the songs was released in 1999; Mary Wilson was not recorded on any of the album track sessions. It was reissued in 1999 in CD form with four bonus tracks, including a cover of "Just a Lonely Christmas" [[originally recorded by Harvey Fuqua's group The Moonglows), and a Florence Ballard-led version of "Silent Night". The Andantes has been recently acknowledged that they recorded the background vocals. Hope that helps.

[marv2]

If it's clearly stated in the # 1s and Florence said so and Florence was very honest then it's clear to me.

That's Florence Ballard on that record with Mary and Diane. Those two sources, plus Mary Wilson makes three and that is enough for me along with my own two ears! Thanks Luke!

[imakicola]

Yeah and you know what? All that is nice,but the fact remains we were not there. Mary Wilson was there. Heck at that time I was only 7 years old and could have care less about what was going on up in Detroit with the Supremes LOL! I have to go with Mary said and my own ears.

She just did not miss THAT recording session. I hear her on that song.

DOnt forget just because Florence could have been there doesn't mean they used her vocals for the released version

[luke]

Didn't a lot of people believe Valerie was singing in place of Tammi? Tina Britt and Jackie Ross sounded a lot like Diana. They may well have done leads at times.

[vgalindo]

Didn't a lot of people believe Valerie was singing in place of Tammi? Tina Britt and Jackie Ross sounded a lot like Diana. They may well have done leads at times.

Sorry to say but nobody sounds like the great Diana Ross!!

[marv2]

DOnt forget just because Florence could have been there doesn't mean they used her vocals for the released version

Florence , Mary, Universal Records all say that it is she that is on the record.....case closed as far as I am concerned!

[marv2]

Didn't a lot of people believe Valerie was singing in place of Tammi? Tina Britt and Jackie Ross sounded a lot like Diana. They may well have done leads at times.

Even Madonna and Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam sounded like Diana Ross.

[TomatoTom123]

Even Madonna and Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam sounded like Diana Ross.

Hehe, just listened to some Lisa Lisa and you're kinda right, she does sound like her

[bradsupremes]

Multi-track tapes say otherwise.

[TomatoTom123]

Multi-track tapes say otherwise.

Erm, hehe, what does that mean? [[Sorry, my musical knowledge is, uh, limited)

[bradsupremes]

Erm, hehe, what does that mean? [[Sorry, my musical knowledge is, uh, limited)

It means the tapes that recorded the vocals say something else.

[floyjoy678]

I'm still not completely buying it. And I'm usually open to the idea of the andantes filling in but I just don't hear it. People will hear things differently.

The voices in the background for Reflections sound worn out and tired which is how DMF sounded around this time.

[blackguy69]

I'm still not completely buying it. And I'm usually open to the idea of the andantes filling in but I just don't hear it. People will hear things differently.

The voices in the background for Reflections sound worn out and tired which is how DMF sounded around this time.

Tired is one thing but it doesn't even sound like flo. we're not talking all three adantes, just Marlene. Why is it so hard to believe Flo missed this session. It wouldn't be the first.

[jobeterob]

The Universal elite say the group ended in 1966 and after that it's lucky if Mary Florence or Cindy are on any recording

The producers didn't care

They didn't make the Christmas lp before that

They didn't make the released version of stop in the name of love

This is why it's very hard now to have them recognized unless Diana insists

[floyjoy678]

The timeline is what gets me. I'd believe it if Reflections was recorded in April or early may but it was done a week after Florence returned to the group. Say she screwed up and missed the session wouldnt she have been gone then and there?

Jobeterob Florence is on stop in the name of love with the andantes, the released version. Louvaine Demps has mentioned this twice. Don't know whether Mary is or not but I'm sure she's in those mix of voices somewhere.

[bradsupremes]

The timeline is what gets me. I'd believe it if Reflections was recorded in April or early may but it was done a week after Florence returned to the group. Say she screwed up and missed the session wouldnt she have been gone then and there?

Jobeterob Florence is on stop in the name of love with the andantes, the released version. Louvaine Demps has mentioned this twice. Don't know whether Mary is or not but I'm sure she's in those mix of voices somewhere.

Vocals were recorded May 9th. Hollywood Bowl was just a mere 10 days earlier on April 29th with Cindy and just a few days before that they were in New Orleans with Marlene standing in. There's a lot going on in those few weeks between Flo to Marlene to Cindy, back to Flo. Is it not hard to believe Flo was never told about the session or was asked not to show up given the difficulty of the previous weeks? I think the fact there are questions about who is singing with Mary on this track is a clear sign that something is unusual. Mary is clearly on this track singing the alto part. The timbre of the soprano doesn't match Florence and we know Florence's voice was getting rough during this time. The soprano on "Reflections" is light and pure. Take a listen to some of the Funny Girl tracks like "Sadie Sadie" or listen to the intro on PJ's "T.L.C." Compare it to the soprano on "Reflections." It's Marlene Barrow on all of those.

[captainjames]

Add on top of what you just said to that fact that Berry wanted Diana out of that group and was willing to prove to her and the world that he could put anyone in the background to sing behind her and still get record sales. I know to some that it sounds like Mary and Flo but sorry Berry would be the one to say record with whoever is here.

Vocals were recorded May 9th. Hollywood Bowl was just a mere 10 days earlier on April 29th with Cindy and just a few days before that they were in New Orleans with Marlene standing in. There's a lot going on in those few weeks between Flo to Marlene to Cindy, back to Flo. Is it not hard to believe Flo was never told about the session or was asked not to show up given the difficulty of the previous weeks? I think the fact there are questions about who is singing with Mary on this track is a clear sign that something is unusual. Mary is clearly on this track singing the alto part. The timbre of the soprano doesn't match Florence and we know Florence's voice was getting rough during this time. The soprano on "Reflections" is light and pure. Take a listen to some of the Funny Girl tracks like "Sadie Sadie" or listen to the intro on PJ's "T.L.C." Compare it to the soprano on "Reflections." It's Marlene Barrow on all of those.

[floyjoy678]

You can study a voice but there are times when someone could be having an off day and do not sound like themselves. I used to be in a local vocal group and we actually made several recordings years ago and I listened to them the other day for the first time in years and there were a couple of songs where I did not sound like myself in the backup vocals. I have a distinct baritone voice that almost always bleeds through other voices but on a couple of songs I just did not hear myself even though I knew I was there. Just going by first hand experience.

Now I took another listen to the backgrounds on Reflections and it almost sounds to me as if it's Mary doing both the lower and high harmony in a few spots.

[nomis]

to quote Diana herself -[[on Flo's leaving) - "although Cindy was a Supreme she wasnt offiically we were waiting to see if Blondie would come back.." this remark is very telling -nothing in this period was set in stone..I strongly believe that although they had problems Diana and Berry wanted Flo to say at that final meeting - "Hey I screwed up but I dont want to leave.." but sadly Flo barely spoke and her Mother did most of the talking for her which really wasnt a wise move...yes Diana was sick of Flo's behaviour but Berry knew he had to keep Diana happy..not any girl singer could come in and replace Flo we all know of Diana's attitude and behaviour to other female singers in the 1960s..it was hardly cordial..the pressure the group was under by this point was imense - 10 number one singles Diana wanted Flo to fight for her place in the group but Flo was too tired,confused and a drinking problem..which makes Marys final vote & comments understandable "But she dosent want to be with us"..its all so sad if she had recieved proper counselling for her teenage rape things might have worked out very differently...

[luke]

And Florence was sick of Diana's behavior. I dont really believe Diana wanted Flo back in. When Cindy rehearsed with them that day it was said Diana was giddy with happiness. As upset as Flo was with the way she was kicked out she was also relieved to not have to deal with all the drama/Diana/Berry and later said she really couldn't see herself returning to be treated that way again.

[nomis]

Diana loved Blondie and Flo loved Diana they were sisters who lived a magical fantastic journey they conquered the world and like sisters they would snap at each other their itennary left no time for many fights they were The Supremes dignity,poise grace was everything..Flo and Berry certainly became bitter enemies..hell the day before Flo was fired Diana planned the birthday celebration for her now were talking Miss Diana Ross here thats an act of a loving sister..Diana was genuiely distressed,concerned and worried at Flos disintergration..thats why Motown pulled off a complete PR coup by announcing Flowas leaving for family reasons and tghe press bought it it wasnt until Flo filed the lawsuit against Gordy,Ross,Wilson & Birdsong in 1970 was it report of conflict between the Supremes and only the black press reported it..we cannot paint Diana as a villan -she wasnt she was temperamental,difficult demanding yes but revelation of disharmony for the supremes only really errupted with the publication of "DreamGirl" then "Call Her Miss Ross" & "all that glittered" each had an agenda to paint Diana as a villan for every minute of backstage dramas there was hours of brillance on stage the sisters making magic and thats what these ladies have to be remembered for...

[Roberta75]

Diana loved Blondie and Flo loved Diana they were sisters who lived a magical fantastic journey they conquered the world and like sisters they would snap at each other their itennary left no time for many fights they were The Supremes dignity,poise grace was everything..Flo and Berry certainly became bitter enemies..hell the day before Flo was fired Diana planned the birthday celebration for her now were talking Miss Diana Ross here thats an act of a loving sister..Diana was genuiely distressed,concerned and worried at Flos disintergration..thats why Motown pulled off a complete PR coup by announcing Flowas leaving for family reasons and tghe press bought it it wasnt until Flo filed the lawsuit against Gordy,Ross,Wilson & Birdsong in 1970 was it report of conflict between the Supremes and only the black press reported it..we cannot paint Diana as a villan -she wasnt she was temperamental,difficult demanding yes but revelation of disharmony for the supremes only really errupted with the publication of "DreamGirl" then "Call Her Miss Ross" & "all that glittered" each had an agenda to paint Diana as a villan for every minute of backstage dramas there was hours of brillance on stage the sisters making magic and thats what these ladies have to be remembered for...

Yes I agree but Luke loves to revel in negative stories about Diane Ross. My personal opinion is he doesnt like her and loves to stir the hornets nest. Again this is only my opinionn.

Roberta

[nomis]

nice to hear from you Roberta..,regards

[Roberta75]

nice to hear from you Roberta..,regards

Nice to see you back dear.

fondly,

Roberta

[Ollie9]

Diana loved Blondie and Flo loved Diana they were sisters who lived a magical fantastic journey they conquered the world and like sisters they would snap at each other their itennary left no time for many fights they were The Supremes dignity,poise grace was everything..Flo and Berry certainly became bitter enemies..hell the day before Flo was fired Diana planned the birthday celebration for her now were talking Miss Diana Ross here thats an act of a loving sister..Diana was genuiely distressed,concerned and worried at Flos disintergration..thats why Motown pulled off a complete PR coup by announcing Flowas leaving for family reasons and tghe press bought it it wasnt until Flo filed the lawsuit against Gordy,Ross,Wilson & Birdsong in 1970 was it report of conflict between the Supremes and only the black press reported it..we cannot paint Diana as a villan -she wasnt she was temperamental,difficult demanding yes but revelation of disharmony for the supremes only really errupted with the publication of "DreamGirl" then "Call Her Miss Ross" & "all that glittered" each had an agenda to paint Diana as a villan for every minute of backstage dramas there was hours of brillance on stage the sisters making magic and thats what these ladies have to be remembered for...

According to author Mark Ribowskys book on the Supremes it was Mary not Diana that was responsible for Flo's birhday bash. Diana did not want a birthday party for Flo as she felt it was hypocritical considering what had recently gone down.
Diana did eventually attend, but with a bit of arm twisting from Mary........................According to the book.

[sansradio]

Ribowsky's book was so factually inaccurate [[not to mention poorly edited) that I take everything in it with an entire case of Morton's Iodized.

[blackguy69]

I will say Ribowskys book was very inaccurate but he wasn't the only one that said Flo's bday party was Mary's idea not Diana

[captainjames]

As far as Flo's birthday party, I am not sure Mary orchestrated it but, I am certain Diana felt it was wrong to pretend that everything was find about this.

[midnightman]

The Supremes were pretty complex people. I think what we think we know about them, their own words tell us we don't know them as well as we think. I definitely think Diana wanted Flo to stay in the group. I also think Mary was just plain tired of trying to get Flo to sober up. So the both of them were pretty much like "let's move on" since Flo didn't really say much and when she did, they caught her at her lowest ebb, which was just unfortunate. It's tragic, really. Those three were magic together.