Reflections: Florence Ballard?

**imakicola** · 09-07-2016, 01:58 PM

REFLECTIONS! So from what I've read on Wikipedia, as well as a few biographies, that was the last track recorded by Florence.
However, I've heard a lot about how Florence missed these sessions and Marlene Barrow of the Andantes filled in for her. And listening to the instrumental, it sounds a lot like Mary Wilson...and Marlene Barrow.
Does anyone have any sources or comments about this? Is it true that Florence Ballard did indeed NOT record this?

Thanks

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by imakicola

REFLECTIONS! So from what I've read on Wikipedia, as well as a few biographies, that was the last track recorded by Florence.
However, I've heard a lot about how Florence missed these sessions and Marlene Barrow of the Andantes filled in for her. And listening to the instrumental, it sounds a lot like Mary Wilson...and Marlene Barrow.
Does anyone have any sources or comments about this? Is it true that Florence Ballard did indeed NOT record this?

Thanks

It is Florence on that song with Mary and Diane. The "#1's" CD makes that very clear.

**bradsupremes** · 09-07-2016, 03:10 PM

Don't be surprised if Marlene is on the song and Flo isn't. I personally believe it's Mary and Marlene.

Remember, the vocals were recorded May 9, 1967. The Hollywood Bowl show was a little over a week prior and before that Marlene was subbing for Florence in New Orleans and other various cities. And of course the April meeting the ladies had at Berry Gordy's essentially telling Florence she was done. She had missed sessions and live performances before. It really shouldn't be a surprised if she wasn't around for this session or those gigs after the meeting at Gordy's. Now she was back for the Copa gig and the rest of May and June, but we know it was just to have time to buy Cindy out of her contract.

Flo's last recording session was "In And Out Of Love" and "It's Going All The Way [[To True Love)" done on June 12, 1967.

**imakicola** · 09-07-2016, 03:29 PM

Yeah and when I listen to Reflections the voice sounds nothing like Florence's at all...like, at ALL to me! But the info is conflicting.

Brad, what you're saying makes a lot of sense!

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

Don't be surprised if Marlene is on the song and Flo isn't. I personally believe it's Mary and Marlene.

Remember, the vocals were recorded May 9, 1967. The Hollywood Bowl show was a little over a week prior and before that Marlene was subbing for Florence in New Orleans and other various cities. And of course the April meeting the ladies had at Berry Gordy's essentially telling Florence she was done. She had missed sessions and live performances before. It really shouldn't be a surprised if she wasn't around for this session or those gigs after the meeting at Gordy's. Now she was back for the Copa gig and the rest of May and June, but we know it was just to have time to buy Cindy out of her contract.

Flo's last recording session was "In And Out Of Love" and "It's Going All The Way [[To True Love)" done on June 12, 1967.

I believe it is Florence, but another thought I am having. Why wasn't Cindy Birdsong used on the recording?

**johnny_raven** · 09-07-2016, 03:52 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ehRsv68Bg

I always thought it was Florence too. But after listening to this, I'm sure it isn't. Listen to the backgrounds. There are several places where you can hear their individual voices. The higher voice is Mary, but the lower voice is definitely NOT Florence. I don't know what Marlene's voice sounds like, so I can't comment on who it is singing with Mary.

**blackguy69** · 09-07-2016, 04:00 PM

I always thought if Flo was singing on it, then she must've have been holding back. I believe it's Marlene and Mary. Plus I remember when someone posted the BBC recordings of that session a few years back, you heard Mary and Diana in the studio but no Flo

**luke** · 09-07-2016, 04:23 PM

Wasn't Florence very clear to Peter Benjamin that she sang on Reflections?

**blackguy69** · 09-07-2016, 04:37 PM

Flo also said that Cindy was prepping to be a Supreme a year before she was fired but we know that wasn't true

**sup_fan** · 09-07-2016, 05:00 PM

my understanding of Cindy's involvement prior to officially joining was the Hollywood Bowl and that's it. a few rehearsals and all but no recording dates.

I know there's been a lot of talk about what records Flo isn't and is on. I know You Can't Hurry Love is questioned too. IMO it is Flo given the nasality that comes through on the background "love don't come eeeeeasssy." Maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm right. who knows. Like any singer, Flo could and would adjust her tone based on the recording. listen to how delicately she sings her lead lines in Breathtaking Guy. then listen to her rip it apart on Long Gone Lover. Now listen to how she sings her parts to Bring It On Home on the Sam Cooke lp and then her going to town on Good News.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by johnny_raven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ehRsv68Bg

I always thought it was Florence too. But after listening to this, I'm sure it isn't. Listen to the backgrounds. There are several places where you can hear their individual voices. The higher voice is Mary, but the lower voice is definitely NOT Florence. I don't know what Marlene's voice sounds like, so I can't comment on who it is singing with Mary.

Mary Wilson is the lower voice on the released version. It is very clear on the "#1's" CD.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Wasn't Florence very clear to Peter Benjamin that she sang on Reflections?

Yes that is the case.

**blackguy69** · 09-07-2016, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Yes that is the case.

but it doesn't make it true

**blackguy69** · 09-07-2016, 05:38 PM

Flo could have adjusted her vocals, but given the last 3 prior singles where you knew it was her vocals, this sounded nothing like her. And since she never sang reflections live, we will never know.

**ejluther** · 09-07-2016, 05:41 PM

The higher voice is Mary, but the lower voice is definitely NOT Florence.

Wouldn't Mary usually be the lower part and Flo/whoever be the higher?

**luke** · 09-07-2016, 06:02 PM

If it's clearly stated in the # 1s and Florence said so and Florence was very honest then it's clear to me.

**floyjoy678** · 09-07-2016, 06:05 PM

Florence was back a few days before this recording when they appeared on Ed Sullivan. It does sound a bit like Mary on the top harmony which wasn't unusual during this time. Flo's voice had changed dramatically around this time and couldn't belt out those high notes as well as she could a couple of years prior.

My opinion? Sounds like two Mary's. Flo is on You Can't Hurry Love. It's just one of those songs she was instructed to hold back on.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by blackguy69

but it doesn't make it true

No speculations here make anything true either.......

**luke** · 09-07-2016, 06:44 PM

I think I hear the Blissoms on Where Sid Our Love Go or at least e Blissom. A source told me Flo was subbing for a Marvelettte the day Where did our love Go recorded or she may have been shopping at Macy's. and u can hear Fanita on one of the Baby Baby's !!

**sup_fan** · 09-07-2016, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by luke

I think I hear the Blissoms on Where Sid Our Love Go or at least e Blissom. A source told me Flo was subbing for a Marvelettte the day Where did our love Go recorded or she may have been shopping at Macy's. and u can hear Fanita on one of the Baby Baby's !!

hahaha

the sad thing is, other than some that were wildly and blatantly obvious [[like Love Child), Berry has been proven right. on record, it was mostly about Diana. for better or worse. love it or hate it. we all have adored You Can't Hurry, Reflections, Stop and the others and just merrily assumed it was F and M. in some cases it turns out it wasn't but we're only learning that now due to the digging int he vaults Andy and others have done.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by luke

I think I hear the Blissoms on Where Sid Our Love Go or at least e Blissom. A source told me Flo was subbing for a Marvelettte the day Where did our love Go recorded or she may have been shopping at Macy's. and u can hear Fanita on one of the Baby Baby's !!

AH HA! LOL!!!!!! hehehehehehehehehehe.............................. .......

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

hahaha

the sad thing is, other than some that were wildly and blatantly obvious [[like Love Child), Berry has been proven right. on record, it was mostly about Diana. for better or worse. love it or hate it. we all have adored You Can't Hurry, Reflections, Stop and the others and just merrily assumed it was F and M. in some cases it turns out it wasn't but we're only learning that now due to the digging int he vaults Andy and others have done.

But it was Mary and Florence on the records you mentioned. If they were not in the group, I would not have even paid attention to "The Supremes".

**luke** · 09-07-2016, 07:22 PM

Correct. When I heard my brother's record of Let Me Go the Right way. What grabbed my attention the most was the music and Florence hitting those high notes at the end of the record. I was hooked!

**lakeside** · 09-07-2016, 07:35 PM

Who out there knows what Marlene Barrow sounded like? I know she was in the Andante's, but, they always sounded rather homogenized to me [[as good as they were doing backgrounds). My vote is for Fanita! Yep, she's definitely on one of those baby baby 's!

**bradsupremes** · 09-07-2016, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by luke

If it's clearly stated in the # 1s and Florence said so and Florence was very honest then it's clear to me.

Revelations can be found...

The fact is Florence missed recording sessions. If we are to believe Florence was all the songs then just what songs did she miss when she skipped recording sessions?

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Correct. When I heard my brother's record of Let Me Go the Right way. What grabbed my attention the most was the music and Florence hitting those high notes at the end of the record. I was hooked!

"Where Did Our Love Go?" made me look forward to the next Supremes record mostly because of Mary's singing.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by lakeside

Who out there knows what Marlene Barrow sounded like? I know she was in the Andante's, but, they always sounded rather homogenized to me [[as good as they were doing backgrounds). My vote is for Fanita! Yep, she's definitely on one of those baby baby 's!

Couldn't have been Fanita. She was out to lunch that day.

**lakeside** · 09-07-2016, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Couldn't have been Fanita. She was out to lunch that day.

Hmmmmmm......Darlene?

**sup_fan** · 09-07-2016, 08:12 PM

The songs so far in question are

You Can't Hurry
Reflections
Stop - not sure if the released Stop is M, F and the andantes or just Andantes.
I Hear a Symphony - rumor is that it's not only M and F on I Hear A Symphony.
In and Out Of Love.
Love Is Here - M and F are doing backup but the Ahhhs and other parts are the Andantes.

assuming there's truth to this, that's a significant amount of the output in 65 - 67. plus many, many album tracks. and the entire Xmas lp. Some of these might be Flo skipping out on recording. or just the fact they didn't use M and F.

**carole cucumber** · 09-07-2016, 08:55 PM

The plot thickens if you listen to:

but begin at 2:41 and listen to the peculiar rolling of the 'r' in the words 'trust' and 'right' at 2:45 & 2:46.......

And then proceed....

**carole cucumber** · 09-07-2016, 08:57 PM

As quickly as posssible to:

but begin at 0:25 and listen to the lower voice until 0:32.

**luke** · 09-07-2016, 09:36 PM

Rumor has it Diana is not on you Keep me Hnagin on or Itching. It's Syreeta or Telma Hopkins

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

Revelations can be found...

The fact is Florence missed recording sessions. If we are to believe Florence was all the songs then just what songs did she miss when she skipped recording sessions?

She missed the bad ones.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by lakeside

Hmmmmmm......Darlene?

Naw, Darlene does not sing that high. Darlene sings it rough like Tina Turner. LOL!

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

As quickly as posssible to:

but begin at 0:25 and listen to the lower voice until 0:32.

If you ever listen to "Ain't Necessarily So" from the GIT Soundtrack, it sounds just like Florence in the background.

**luke** · 09-07-2016, 10:14 PM

It's kind of like when Motown said she was sloppy on stage in July 1967 and all the Vegas reviews were raves for the entire group.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by luke

It's kind of like when Motown said she was sloppy on stage in July 1967 and all the Vegas reviews were raves for the entire group.

They said and did all kinds of stuff to destroy her.

**sup_fan** · 09-07-2016, 10:54 PM

actually on You Can't Hurry Love it's Mary and Delcina Wilson

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

actually on You Can't Hurry Love it's Mary and Delcina Wilson

Couldn't have been Delcina. She and Reggie were at the beauty shop in lower Manhattan.

**jobeterob** · 09-08-2016, 02:02 AM

There are people at universal that have said the group was essentially over in 1965 - after that it was just Diana and any 3 or 3 background singers

**marv2** · 09-08-2016, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

There are people at universal that have said the group was essentially over in 1965 - after that it was just Diana and any 3 or 3 background singers

Whoever told you that is crazy.

**captainjames** · 09-08-2016, 08:36 AM

Now that is probably closer to truth than any of us realized at the time. Berry was looking to lift Diana from the group most likely around that time. If he had in my opinion I believe Florence would have eventually still left the group. Flo had her way and that was that. At any rate back on topic: Florence may have recorded Reflections but I don't believe its the version that was released. Florence said she recorded it but, I have heard Mary say that Florence was incorrect. In 2016 I am like "Who Cares". All I know is that there were three girls back in the day that rocked America and took them by storm and I was here to witness it. I was part of history. One thing I do know for sure and that the lead voice was Diana Ross and she is still singing today.

Originally Posted by jobeterob

There are people at universal that have said the group was essentially over in 1965 - after that it was just Diana and any 3 or 3 background singers

honest man · 09-08-2016, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

They said and did all kinds of stuff to destroy her.

She desroyed herself ego and missing work -recordings-performances] and attacking her lead singer as you state in another thread,also throwing drinks at her employer ,i don't know how she lasted so long.in the group.there were hundreds of commited girls waiting to step into her size 5 stillettos.cheers.

**imakicola** · 09-08-2016, 01:53 PM

Oddly Florence DOES sound like the voice in "ain't necessarily so" from GIT! Strange. Very strange.

**detmotownguy** · 09-08-2016, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

"Where Did Our Love Go?" made me look forward to the next Supremes record mostly because of Mary's singing.

Man I wish Mary did the lead on that song .

**detmotownguy** · 09-08-2016, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Couldn't have been Delcina. She and Reggie were at the beauty shop in lower Manhattan.

Stop Marv!

**detmotownguy** · 09-08-2016, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

Don't be surprised if Marlene is on the song and Flo isn't. I personally believe it's Mary and Marlene.

Remember, the vocals were recorded May 9, 1967. The Hollywood Bowl show was a little over a week prior and before that Marlene was subbing for Florence in New Orleans and other various cities. And of course the April meeting the ladies had at Berry Gordy's essentially telling Florence she was done. She had missed sessions and live performances before. It really shouldn't be a surprised if she wasn't around for this session or those gigs after the meeting at Gordy's. Now she was back for the Copa gig and the rest of May and June, but we know it was just to have time to buy Cindy out of her contract.

Flo's last recording session was "In And Out Of Love" and "It's Going All The Way [[To True Love)" done on June 12, 1967.

I never understood if Flo was fired in April after the big meeting why was she able to record after she was fired? The timing always seemed a little bit grey to me.

**johnny_raven** · 09-08-2016, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by detmotownguy

I never understood if Flo was fired in April after the big meeting why was she able to record after she was fired? The timing always seemed a little bit grey to me.

I thought Flo was put on probation in April, but not fired until late Jun ...

**detmotownguy** · 09-08-2016, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by johnny_raven

I thought Flo was put on probation in April, but not fired until late Jun ...

thanks maybe that's it !

**sup_fan** · 09-08-2016, 05:12 PM

i think the problem was it was determined at the April meeting that Flo would no longer be in the group. however Cindy couldn't get released in time to formally join the group so since there were dates scheduled that they couldn't get out of, they had to bring Flo back in

Cindy had a recording contract via the Bluebelles with Atlantic Records. not that they were a huge group for the label but they did have a contract which Motown would have to get her released from. I'm not sure exactly when they start approaching Cindy about joining and rehearsing. but she was signed with another label at the time