Supremes Comment starts Facebook Firestorm!!

[marv2]

As I pointed out...Donna won the very FIRST Female Rock Vocal Performance Grammy ever awarded in that category for Hot Stuff...Didn't take the critics too long...

Yes that is the song Rock critics first took seriously from Donna.

[sansradio]

Actually...this didn't sound quite right to me and upon further investigation I discovered that Donna Summer won the Grammy for Best Female Rock Vocal Performance [[Hot Stuff) the very FIRST year that Female ROCK Vocal Performance became a category beating out Cindy Bullens [[Survivor), Rickie Lee Jones [[The Last Chance Texaco), Bonnie Raitt [[You're Gonna Get Whats Coming),Carley Simon [[Vengence) and Tanya Tucker [[TNT) ...Prior to that, aside from niche categories like R&B, Country, Gospel, Jazz...overall vocalists, male and female fell into the best Pop [[or top 40 at one point), or just best vocalist [[male&female) categories...and winners long before Donna won the inaugural Female Rock Vocalist, winners included Dionne Warwick [[multiple times), The Fifth Dimension, Roberta Flack, Gladys Knight & The Pips, and very early [[in specific non genre classified) vocalist category included Ella Fitzgerald [[multiple) Nat King Cole [[Top 40), Ray Charles. Natalie Cole [[BEst New Artist)...and more...all before Donnna won her Best Rock Vocalist Grammy in around 1980...

I stand corrected; "Hot Stuff" was indeed her first rock Grammy. However, my point was not about pop recognition for Black artists, but specifically "rock." Unlike the long track record of African-Americans winning in pop categories, the rock Grammys had never had even one Black nominee until Donna, followed by Michael Jackson [["Beat It"). Donna was indeed nominated again for "Protection," the same year as "Beat It," IIRC. And it took three years for another Black nominee [[oddly enough, Melba Moore for "Read My Lips.").

[StuBass1]

I stand corrected; "Hot Stuff" was indeed her first rock Grammy. However, my point was not about pop recognition for Black artists, but specifically "rock." Unlike the long track record of African-Americans winning in pop categories, the rock Grammys had never had even one Black nominee until Donna, followed by Michael Jackson [["Beat It"). And it took three years for another Black nominee [[oddly enough, Melba Moore for "Read My Lips.").

Actually not just her [[Donna's) first Rock Grammy...but very first Rock Grammy in the category of ROCK Female Vocalist...Tina Turner also won in that category a few years later...That said...Rock sub-genres can be a tricky thing...I have long argued that R&B/Soul is just another sub-genre of "Rock" and it's pioneers were many of the seminal "Rock" artists and contributors...The Grammys do have the R&B categories and many popular R&B/Soul artists like Aretha have won often in that category [[and Aretha IS the Queen of "Soul"). As in any of these awards...the voting process often leaves controversial discussions about what artist or song fits into one specific category or another. I know that Heavy Metal fans for YEARS complained that artists from that genre were overlooked by the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame and KISS fans thought that the reason it took so long for them was due to their musical style and get-ups ...so at a certain point, it does become quite subjective...but so far as Donna Summer...she was certainly not overlooked by the Grammys...at least so far as the Female Rock Vocalist award was concerned since she won the inaugural [[first ever)award in that category...

[detmotownguy]

Marv wasn't Detroit radio/media was the best! Those memories are the best medicine on a bad day! Everything is so damn sterile today.... Cheers

[marv2]

Marv wasn't Detroit radio/media was the best! Those memories are the best medicine on a bad day! Everything is so damn sterile today.... Cheers

We did have the best! I can barely listen to commercial radio today and have no loyalty to any of the stations today. It is a vast wasteland.

[sansradio]

Actually not just her [[Donna's) first Rock Grammy...but very first Rock Grammy in the category of ROCK Female Vocalist...Tina Turner also won in that category a few years later...That said...Rock sub-genres can be a tricky thing...I have long argued that R&B/Soul is just another sub-genre of "Rock" and it's pioneers were many of the seminal "Rock" artists and contributors...The Grammys do have the R&B categories and many popular R&B/Soul artists like Aretha have won often in that category [[and Aretha IS the Queen of "Soul"). As in any of these awards...the voting process often leaves controversial discussions about what artist or song fits into one specific category or another. I know that Heavy Metal fans for YEARS complained that artists from that genre were overlooked by the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame and KISS fans thought that the reason it took so long for them was due to their musical style and get-ups ...so at a certain point, it does become quite subjective...but so far as Donna Summer...she was certainly not overlooked by the Grammys...at least so far as the Female Rock Vocalist award was concerned since she won the inaugural [[first ever)award in that category...

Yes, but the overarching point is that we are discussing tokens where the rock genre is concerned, and therein lies the problem. Rock critics, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and the Grammy rock categories largely remain a clubbish, country-club-like set that generally sneer at foundational R&B pioneers when it can be argued that those pioneers are the ones who invented rock. Look at how the Hall of Fame continually snub The Marvelettes and Chic. Sure, Donna won the first female rock Grammy, but what of all the men? After Michael, not one Black man was nominated in the best male rock category until Lenny Kravitz in '96. Hence my point...the rock critical guard is guilty of snobbery at best.

CORRECTION: I've since discovered that Gary U.S. Bonds, Rick James and Joan Armatrading also had rock nominations in the early days, so apologies for that oversight. Donna also had another rock nomination between the two aforementioned ["Cold Love"]. The overall Grammy demographics remain rather homogenous for the men in rock; Black women have been only slightly better represented.

And thanks for the shout-out, Luke!

[StuBass1]

As Marv alluded to earlier...music, following the days of Top 40 radio has become so compartmentalized...just look at the station selections on XM radio for proof, that it's even difficult to define the various genres and sub-genres of music anymore because there are so many sub-genres to consider. Some of my most vociferous arguments have been with some individual who sees "Rock" music as essentially 4 or 5 white guys playing guitars, keyboard and drums...shoulder length hair with tattoos and body piercings. These people fail to see and take into account the history of Rock [[Rock&Roll) and it's various incarnatons and sub-genres...thus contributing to that concept is the various categories of awards the Grammys actually presents...If it was just "Rock"...the show would be very short...I've had dealings with NARAS as I represented, served as spokesperson and sponsor of Motowns rhythm section...The Funk Brothers , and found them to be quite cooperative once I explained the situation to them, resulting ultimately in a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and many NARAS people actually bent over backwards trying to advance our cause...The R&R HOF, as I mentioned...it seems that virtually everyone has a beef with them. The Metal Rockers think they get overlooked there...and even KISS fans lament how long it took that group to get recognition there due to their music and get-ups. I personally believe that the R&R HOF has been pretty accommodating to black artists, particularly the seminal pioneers of the genre...While the Marvelettes and Chic, both deserving appear to perhaps be overlooked...they represent but two of the dozens and dozens of black performers who have been honored there and there will always be performers that some believe have been unfairly left out...Perhaps those two will be honored at some time in the future...

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes NEVER recieved a Grammy Award..

[soulster]

I remember. Everyone thought she was a novelty act, a one hit wonder when "Love to Love You Baby" came out near the end of 1975. She went on to have disco hit after hit. There was an underground movement building to destroy Disco with the "Disco Sucks" slogan. Not until the "Bad Girls" album and specifically the single "Hot Stuff" did Donna Summer get some play with certain segments of the market.....Rockers. Listen to "Hot Stuff". Notice the rock guitars and the way she is singing.

Oh, sure, when she released "Bad Girls", she gained credibility with rock audiences, and became the critics' darling. I'm saying that it wasn't all that negative when she started out.

When "Love To Love You Baby" came out in late 1975, she wasn't seen as a novelty, but a few people did criticize the moaning and groaning on the song as overtly sexual. And, as with the times, it was played on the radio and sold in the stores to kids like me. Well, I was 13 by then. But, the way I remember it is that critics realized she had real singing talent, and her respect grew with each album.

Overall, disco wasn't condemned in 1975/76 as it was later in the decade after Saturday Night Fever came out. That's because the disco scene, as opposed to the music itself, was somewhat concentrated in the major coastal cities like New York City and San Francisco. It wasn't yet seen as a cultural threat, even as the airwaves and stores were starting to fill up with disco records. In 1975, Van McCoy's "The Hustle" was the most respected disco hit of the year. Before then, Barry White was always loved by the rock critics, as was MFSB. And, later on, the critics couldn't get enough of Chic!

But, why are we even talking about what rock critics think? Who cares? My opinion of professional music critics ranks somewhere with politicians and cops. What matters is what we, the fans think. After all, we are the ones who spent our hard-earned money on it. The critics? They got their stash for free.

[RossHolloway]

But, why are we even talking about what rock critics think? Who cares? My opinion of professional music critics ranks somewhere with politicians and cops. What matters is what we, the fans think. After all, we are the ones who spent our hard-earned money on it. The critics? They got their stash for free.

I could not have said it better.

[soulster]

Yet that assembly-line way of producing records Motown utilize, produced more hits that many of those rock bands combined! In fact, Motown's Funk Brothers played on more hit records than any other musicians in history! I think it was more about jealousy than anything else. Motown had top songwriters, musicians and singers/performers. Just because an artist did not do everything themselves before releasing a record does not mean much to me. How boring it was to watch many of those self important Rock Bands play vs the exciting stage shows Motown artists put on.

Artists got tired of that approach to making records. It stifled their talent and creativity. That's why so many pushed for artistic freedom or left. Gladys Knight said it was the best move she and her cousins ever made. The Isleys respected Motown, but quickly realized it wasn't their thing. And, the Four Tops also wanted to branch out and do their own thing. The Jackson 5, Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons, the list goes on. Then, there were the ones Berry Gordy pretty much let have their own way from the start, even though they still had to fight the other executives in the company.

Numbers don't impress me. Just because the fabulous Funk Brothers played on so many records means little to me. So the The Wrecking Crew out in L.A.. And, what about Booker T. & The M.G.'s? I know this is a Motown forum, but the world did not center around Motown, especially after the boom years of 1964-1966. After '65, Motown's influence started to gradually decline because of many factors, and their style of making records was part of that. I can say that James Brown and Aretha Franklin, and the civil rights movement had a lot to do with it.

[soulster]

Stu's several posts above are the way I remember history too. As far as what happened musically, he's on the money.

[marv2]

Artists got tired of that approach to making records. It stifled their talent and creativity. That's why so many pushed for artistic freedom or left. Gladys Knight said it was the best move she and her cousins ever made. The Isleys respected Motown, but quickly realized it wasn't their thing. And, the Four Tops also wanted to branch out and do their own thing. The Jackson 5, Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons, the list goes on. Then, there were the ones Berry Gordy pretty much let have their own way from the start, even though they still had to fight the other executives in the company.

Numbers don't impress me. Just because the fabulous Funk Brothers played on so many records means little to me. So the The Wrecking Crew out in L.A.. And, what about Booker T. & The M.G.'s? I know this is a Motown forum, but the world did not center around Motown, especially after the boom years of 1964-1966. After '65, Motown's influence started to gradually decline because of many factors, and their style of making records was part of that. I can say that James Brown and Aretha Franklin, and the civil rights movement had a lot to do with it.

Regarding the Funk Brothers. They didn't just play on so many records. They played on so many HIT RECORDS! Records that are now considered classics and that are loved by the masses around World! That is not a small fete! They were some of the best musicians in the industry. They had real talent! They did not f around when they went into the studio.

[marv2]

Oh, sure, when she released "Bad Girls", she gained credibility with rock audiences, and became the critics' darling. I'm saying that it wasn't all that negative when she started out.

When "Love To Love You Baby" came out in late 1975, she wasn't seen as a novelty, but a few people did criticize the moaning and groaning on the song as overtly sexual. And, as with the times, it was played on the radio and sold in the stores to kids like me. Well, I was 13 by then. But, the way I remember it is that critics realized she had real singing talent, and her respect grew with each album.

Overall, disco wasn't condemned in 1975/76 as it was later in the decade after Saturday Night Fever came out. That's because the disco scene, as opposed to the music itself, was somewhat concentrated in the major coastal cities like New York City and San Francisco. It wasn't yet seen as a cultural threat, even as the airwaves and stores were starting to fill up with disco records. In 1975, Van McCoy's "The Hustle" was the most respected disco hit of the year. Before then, Barry White was always loved by the rock critics, as was MFSB. And, later on, the critics couldn't get enough of Chic!

But, why are we even talking about what rock critics think? Who cares? My opinion of professional music critics ranks somewhere with politicians and cops. What matters is what we, the fans think. After all, we are the ones who spent our hard-earned money on it. The critics? They got their stash for free.

Yes she was seen as a novelty act with that first hit!

[marv2]

The Supremes NEVER recieved a Grammy Award..

No they did not unfortunately.

[soulster]

Regarding the Funk Brothers. They didn't just play on so many records. They played on so many HIT RECORDS! Records that are now considered classics and that are loved by the masses around World! That is not a small fete! They were some of the best musicians in the industry. They had real talent! They did not f around when they went into the studio.

You can say the same about a lot of studio bands. MFSB also comes to mind.

[soulster]

Yes she was seen as a novelty act with that first hit!

No she wasn't, and no posting of a video will prove your point.

[marv2]

You can say the same about a lot of studio bands. MFSB also comes to mind.

Well that was exactly what they said about Donna. That she was a studio creation of Giorgio Moroder and that she probably couldn't really sing. Then, as her popular grew with successive hit releases, they started spreading the rumor that she wasn't even a woman,but a man in drag or transvestite. Even after she appeared on the cover of Ebony Magazine holding her young daughter Mimi. Are you familiar with Boney M and Frank Farian [[another German record producer)? Their story and Donna's are similar in many ways.

[marv2]

No she wasn't, and no posting of a video will prove your point.

I just know what the feeling was regarding Donna Summer and that first record. I don't have to prove anything. During that time many Disco acts that had hits were studio singers. Once they hit, they had to create a "stage act" to further promote their records. I guess what started the idea that Donna Summer was another novelty act was all the moaning and groaning she did on "Love to Love You Baby".

[StuBass1]

Regarding the Funk Brothers. They didn't just play on so many records. They played on so many HIT RECORDS! Records that are now considered classics and that are loved by the masses around World! That is not a small fete! They were some of the best musicians in the industry. They had real talent! They did not f around when they went into the studio.

The thing about The Funk Brothers and what Allen Slutsky accomplished with his "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" documentary was to bring to light to the general public the importance of session musicians in the creativity and skills that went into making the hit records that people were familiar with. Despite what may have occurred later between Allan and the musicians, telling that story inspired others to do their own projects as did Denny Tedesco, son of legendary Los Angeles session guitarist Tommy Tedesco, who eventually got funded to produce his "Wrecking Crew" film. Denny told me that he was certainly inspired by the SITSOM project as were many others. Projects featuring the Stax musicians have also been done. Another friend of mine, filmmaker Gil Baker has an enormous amount of taped interviews with legendary session musicians from Wrecking Crew guys Glen Campbell, Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Carol Kaye, Larry Knechtel...as well as in depth studio visits and interviews with the Memphis Horns, Booker T and the Stax guys, The Swampers [[Muscle Shoals musicians), and even Bobby Ei and Earl Young from MFSB, and even a segment featuring bass legend Will Lee [[demonstrating and discussing Funk Brothers recording techniques) for his upcoming documentary film "Session Men"...I speak with Gil quite often and he's working tying up some lose ends to finish off what will likely be the most comprehensive film on session musicians ever produced. Snippets of the unfinished version can be found on YouTube under the heading of Session Men or Gil Baker...Great stuff. I was privileged to have had the opportunity to represent The Funk Brothers for their Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and their induction and Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, which along with many other honors like the Hollywood Rock Walk and the Musicians Hall Of Fame encouraged many of these filmmakers to do their own projects featuring the often unsung musicians who toiled in the studios to put the soundtrack and heartbeat on all the records that so many have enjoyed throughout the years...

[marv2]

The thing about The Funk Brothers and what Allen Slutsky accomplished with his "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" documentary was to bring to light to the general public the importance of session musicians in the creativity and skills that went into making the hit records that people were familiar with. Despite what may have occurred later between Allan and the musicians, telling that story inspired others to do their own projects as did Denny Tedesco, son of legendary Los Angeles session guitarist Tommy Tedesco, who eventually got funded to produce his "Wrecking Crew" film. Denny told me that he was certainly inspired by the SITSOM project as were many others. Projects featuring the Stax musicians have also been done. Another friend of mine, filmmaker Gil Baker has an enormous amount of taped interviews wit legendary session musicians from Wrecking Crew guys Glen Campbell, Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Carol Kaye, Larry Knechtel...as well as in depth studio visits and interviews with the Memphis Horns, Booker T and the Stax guys, The Swampers [[Muscle Shoals musicians), and even Bobby Ei and Earl Young from MFSB, and even a segment featuring bass legend Will Lee [[demonstrating and discussing Funk Brothers recording techniques) for his upcoming documentary film "Session Men"...I speak with Gil quite often and he's working tying up some lose ends to finish off what will likely be the most comprehensive film on session musicians ever produced. Snippets of the unfinished version can be found on YouTube under the heading of Session Men or Gil Baker...Great stuff. I was privileged to have had the opportunity to represent The Funk Brothers for their Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and their induction and Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, which along with many other honors like the Hollywood Rock Walk and the Musicians Hall Of Fame encouraged many of these filmmakers to do their own projects featuring the often unsung musicians who toiled in the studios to put the soundtrack and heartbeat on all the records that so many have enjoyed throughout the years...

Stu there are still people today who refuse to acknowledge that the Funk Brothers were the greatest! There are no Rock Bands that can compare to that group of musicians anywhere on the planet!

[StuBass1]

Stu there are still people today who refuse to acknowledge that the Funk Brothers were the greatest! There are no Rock Bands that can compare to that group of musicians anywhere on the planet!

If you watch any of Gils project, you'll appreciate just how many absolutely GREAT musical ensembles there were out there. The ones who probably achieved the greatest level of virtuosity as an ensemble were the ones like The Funk Brothers who remained a relatively tight knit group of guys who played together day after day. The uniqueness of the Funk Brothers was the fact that they became associated with a sound which became known as Motown...more than just a record label, but a sound, a method of producing records, and came together at the right time and the right place to form one of the greatest ensembles in modern music history...The MFSB guys in Philly, the Wrecking Crew musicians were individually and collectively some of the greatest and most creative musicians on the planet, as well as Muscle Shoals musicians known as The Swampers who developed a very distinctive groove, and Booker T and his gang in Memphis...no slouches in any of them...

[soulster]

I just know what the feeling was regarding Donna Summer and that first record. I don't have to prove anything. During that time many Disco acts that had hits were studio singers. Once they hit, they had to create a "stage act" to further promote their records. I guess what started the idea that Donna Summer was another novelty act was all the moaning and groaning she did on "Love to Love You Baby".

You don't "know" anything, as you don't speak for everyone.

[soulster]

If you watch any of Gils project, you'll appreciate just how many absolutely GREAT musical ensembles there were out there. The ones who probably achieved the greatest level of virtuosity as an ensemble were the ones like The Funk Brothers who remained a relatively tight knit group of guys who played together day after day. The uniqueness of the Funk Brothers was the fact that they became associated with a sound which became known as Motown...more than just a record label, but a sound, a method of producing records, and came together at the right time and the right place to form one of the greatest ensembles in modern music history...The MFSB guys in Philly, the Wrecking Crew musicians were individually and collectively some of the greatest and most creative musicians on the planet, as well as Muscle Shoals musicians known as The Swampers who developed a very distinctive groove, and Booker T and his gang in Memphis...no slouches in any of them...

Exactly! You can even add Toto, and the rest of the Quincy Jones empire of the late 70s and 80s. Can't forget the Swampers! They were so good that Jerry Wexler flew some of them up to NY for sessions [[mainly because Aretha wouldn't record down there again).

Marv, again, I know this is a Motown-specific forum, but we can't get so militant that we can't see the reality. No one is trying to marginalize the Funk Brothers, but we are saying that there were other studio bands that were equally accomplished.

[marv2]

You don't "know" anything, as you don't speak for everyone.

I know what I know! I also know I don't like your tone! It's not my fault you grew up in Cowboy land. Everyone East of the Mississippi considered her a novelty act with that first record!

[Roberta75]

I know what I know! I also know I don't like your tone! It's not my fault you grew up in Cowboy land. Everyone East of the Mississippi considered her a novelty act with that first record!

You act like the Donald Trump of this here forum. You cant just civilly dissagree you have to insult where someone grew up and even then your not even correct. I believe Soulster had said many times that one of his parents was in the armed services and he moved around a lot.

cant you just be respectfull when dissagreeing?

[soulster]

I know what I know! I also know I don't like your tone! It's not my fault you grew up in Cowboy land. Everyone East of the Mississippi considered her a novelty act with that first record!

It's funny that "cowboy land" thought better of Donna Summer. You also read my tone wrong. And, not everyone on this forum grew up in "da hood".

[Jimi LaLumia]

"Love To Love You Baby" WAS treated as a novelty when it was a hit, that is just a fact, no one knew what was to follow.. I remember a NYC radio DJ saying that if she did a show the stage would probably be a giant bed..it was compared to he French "Je taime" record which was also a heavy breather record..Marv is correct

[marv2]

"Love To Love You Baby" WAS treated as a novelty when it was a hit, that is just a fact, no one knew what was to follow.. I remember a NYC radio DJ saying that if she did a show the stage would probably be a giant bed..it was compared to he French "Je taime" record which was also a heavy breather record..Marv is correct

That's right Jimi, I'm not making this shit up. It was not as novel as Rick Dee's "Disco Duck" or that other Meri Wilson's "Telephone Man" but it was as much a novelty record as Disco Tex & The Sex-O-Lettes, "Get Dancin' ".

After Donna's 16 min moan and groan epic was a smash hit, a lot of female singers started adding some sexy overtones to their music. Listen to Aretha's "Giving Him Something He Can Feel", Mavis Staples on the Staple Singers "Let's Do It Again" to even the Supremes "You Are the Heart of Me".

We did not know that Donna Summer was going to be mainstay with such a great singing voice until later. I am trying to argue what was definitely going on at the time.

[144man]

That's right Jimi, I'm not making this shit up. It was not as novel as Rick Dee's "Disco Duck" or that other Meri Wilson's "Telephone Man" but it was as much a novelty record as Disco Tex & The Sex-O-Lettes, "Get Dancin' ".

After Donna's 16 min moan and groan epic was a smash hit, a lot of female singers started adding some sexy overtones to their music. Listen to Aretha's "Giving Him Something He Can Feel", Mavis Staples on the Staple Singers "Let's Do It Again" to even the Supremes "You Are the Heart of Me".

We did not know that Donna Summer was going to be mainstay with such a great singing voice until later. I am trying to argue what was definitely going on at the time.

That's exactly how it was with Donna Summer in the UK as well.

[soulster]

"Love To Love You Baby" WAS treated as a novelty when it was a hit, that is just a fact, no one knew what was to follow.. I remember a NYC radio DJ saying that if she did a show the stage would probably be a giant bed..it was compared to he French "Je taime" record which was also a heavy breather record..Marv is correct

Facts require hard evidence, not anecdotal evidence. The joke about the bed didn't mean she was treated as novelty. Perhaps the word "novel" is the wrong word to be using, and what I have been reacting to.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I was a dept. manager at Sam goody the biggst record chain on the East Coast at the time this was released I lived it..we were there, were you? evidence..lol..her 'loveglove' didnt fit, so we must aquit

[soulster]

I was a dept. manager at Sam goody the biggst record chain on the East Coast at the time this was released I lived it..we were there, were you? evidence..lol..her 'loveglove' didnt fit, so we must aquit

Do you have evidence?

[Jimi LaLumia]

yes, I'm invited to the upcoming Sam Goody staff reunion..lol..

[marv2]

yes, I'm invited to the upcoming Sam Goody staff reunion..lol..

I wished I were going. Man! I miss Sam Goody's! the Wiz and Peaches Records hehehehehehehehe.............