Jerry Heller, controversial early manager of N.W.A, dies at 75

**marv2** · 09-05-2016, 09:43 PM

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...nap-story.html

**soulster** · 09-06-2016, 12:24 PM

I wasn't there, but the movie did portray Heller in a negative light.

**marv2** · 09-06-2016, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

I wasn't there, but the movie did portray Heller in a negative light.

Oh he created a problem that we are all still living with today! He was instrumental in encouraging and promoting "Gangsta Rap".

**soulster** · 09-06-2016, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Oh he created a problem that we are all still living with today! He was instrumental in encouraging and promoting "Gangsta Rap".

Gangsta rap isn't a problem.

**marv2** · 09-06-2016, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

Gangsta rap isn't a problem.

Oh yes it is, at least to a generation of young men attempting to live that life in Ohio. The gangs have gotten completely out of control there. All they ever listen to the Gangsta rap form of Hip-Hop. They shoot each other on the streets on sight. Shoot through well established neighborhoods with children present, then set up all of these obnoxious street "memorials". I've had my car broken into 3 times in the last 2 years by them. I have never had my car vandalized in New York.

**soulster** · 09-08-2016, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Oh yes it is, at least to a generation of young men attempting to live that life in Ohio. The gangs have gotten completely out of control there. All they ever listen to the Gangsta rap form of Hip-Hop. They shoot each other on the streets on sight. Shoot through well established neighborhoods with children present, then set up all of these obnoxious street "memorials". I've had my car broken into 3 times in the last 2 years by them. I have never had my car vandalized in New York.

You are blaming the symptom. You should blame the cause which is the lack of jobs, bad education, the lure of easy money by selling drugs and guns, the failure of parents to do their jobs of instilling good values, and institutional discrimination.

**Jerry Oz** · 09-07-2016, 11:25 AM

Does art imitate life or does life imitate art? As little as I appreciate gangsta rap, I'm pretty certain we'd have the same problems if the disaffected youth was blaring Count Basie and Duke Ellington through their stereos as we have with them playing NWA and 2 Short. [[Sorry, I'm too lazy to look up today's representatives of that sad genre.)

The problems with the communities are 100% the result of systemic economic disparities that prevents people from opportunities to advance. Thirsty people need water, hungry people need food, and hopeless people need hope. That's why life is so cheap and respect is not something they care to offer: they've been disrespected and their lives are cheap in the eyes of the government and a huge portion of society.

To wit: Ice-T broke the whole gangsta rap thing open with Colors, in which he described his life as a fictionalized gang banger in Los Angeles. Gangs and affiliated colors had been established in LA for decades before his record. His song reflected that reality, it didn't create it. As much as I hate gangsta rap, I wouldn't blame it for society's woes. Society's woes are to blame for it.

**marv2** · 09-07-2016, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Oz

Does art imitate life or does life imitate art? As little as I appreciate gangsta rap, I'm pretty certain we'd have the same problems if the disaffected youth was blaring Count Basie and Duke Ellington through their stereos as we have with them playing NWA and 2 Short. [[Sorry, I'm too lazy to look up today's representatives of that sad genre.)

The problems with the communities are 100% the result of systemic economic disparities that prevents people from opportunities to advance. Thirsty people need water, hungry people need food, and hopeless people need hope. That's why life is so cheap and respect is not something they care to offer: they've been disrespected and their lives are cheap in the eyes of the government and a huge portion of society.

To wit: Ice-T broke the whole gangsta rap thing open with Colors, in which he described his life as a fictionalized gang banger in Los Angeles. Gangs and affiliated colors had been established in LA for decades before his record. His song reflected that reality, it didn't create it. As much as I hate gangsta rap, I wouldn't blame it for society's woes. Society's woes are to blame for it.

I believe it helped to spread that lifestyle to other parts of the country. There were no Crips or Bloods in other parts of the country up until the last 20 years or so. People do imitate "Art".

Remember the story of "Doo-Wop"? It started on the streets of New York in the 50s and spread throughout the country. Doo Rags, rolled up jeans and hipster talk became the norm for many young people then.

**soulster** · 09-08-2016, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Oz

Does art imitate life or does life imitate art? As little as I appreciate gangsta rap, I'm pretty certain we'd have the same problems if the disaffected youth was blaring Count Basie and Duke Ellington through their stereos as we have with them playing NWA and 2 Short. [[Sorry, I'm too lazy to look up today's representatives of that sad genre.)

Well, there aren't any today. Further proof that the music is immaterial to the problem. If one wants to cite influences, try the NRA who promotes guns everywhere, and a culture that advocates violence. Blame the drug trade. Not just the illicit drugs, but the "legit" trade that pills over real treatment, and medicate the parents who produce kids with behavioral problems. Blame the parents, and our elected leaders who don't teach their children respect for others. More than music, blame Hollywood live action and superhero movies that promote violence as a way to solve problems.

Street gangs have been around a lot longer than rap music.

**marv2** · 09-08-2016, 02:07 PM

Let me add, I have lost all patience and any empathy I may have had for them since just a month ago they shot and killed one of the Crips just two doors down from my 91 year old aunt. Terrorizing her to the point where she will no longer sit out on her porch. They do not have all the excuses we use to give them. I want them to be locked up so they cannot hurt innocent people.

**soulster** · 09-08-2016, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Let me add, I have lost all patience and any empathy I may have had for them since just a month ago they shot and killed one of the Crips just two doors down from my 91 year old aunt. Terrorizing her to the point where she will no longer sit out on her porch. They do not have all the excuses we use to give them. I want them to be locked up so they cannot hurt innocent people.

I have little sympathy for killers. They should pay the price. Still, you started off by blaming gangsta rap music. My main point is that gangsta rap is the symptom, not the cause. If you were able to suddenly vanquish the existence of rap from the planet, we would still have the violence.

Guys, don't let your emotional reaction control your rational thinking. We all see the killing, but we know what the real underlying causes are. You get nowhere attacking the lazy targets.

**Jerry Oz** · 09-07-2016, 03:47 PM

You know that I live in Columbus, which has typically been a safe city. I clearly recall my cousin telling me that the Gangster Disciples [[when they were still the Vice Lords) were in a project near his house in the '70s. There was also a notorious unaffiliated gang a few blocks away from my school when I was in junior high in the mid-70s.

Granted, gangs did seem to rapidly grow in numbers after being sensationalized in song. But I wouldn't suggest that the music caused the problem. I think it's the other way around although with the songs, there was suddenly a reason for knuckleheads to do the stupid things that they do. The same can be said of Mexican narco ballads. But if words were the cause of crime, then Lloyd Price should be criticized for recording "Stagger Lee".

**splanky** · 09-08-2016, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Oz

You know that I live in Columbus, which has typically been a safe city. I clearly recall my cousin telling me that the Gangster Disciples [[when they were still the Vice Lords) were in a project near his house in the '70s. There was also a notorious unaffiliated gang a few blocks away from my school when I was in junior high in the mid-70s.

Granted, gangs did seem to rapidly grow in numbers after being sensationalized in song. But I wouldn't suggest that the music caused the problem. I think it's the other way around although with the songs, there was suddenly a reason for knuckleheads to do the stupid things that they do. The same can be said of Mexican narco ballads. But if words were the cause of crime, then Lloyd Price should be criticized for recording "Stagger Lee".

We discussed this issue several years back. We talked about the difference between violence
referenced in music in the earlier years compared to recent days and while none of completely agreed the issue still persists. I'll say again as I have here and in the real world
most listeners then knew the song was about the behavior of fictional characters most of the
time, while later folks took it as advisory rules for real life. I have enjoyed as I've said before
some of the Gangsta rappers, NWA, Geto Boyz, etc but I know what's fiction. Many young
minds do not. BTW, Crips, originally a Cali problem, became a problem in the 2000's in my
aunt's little home of Winnsboro, South Carolina...We can jump up and scream and shout about every cop's killing of unarmed black youth but what we do to ourselves and each
other for me is still as big a problem. In NY, it seems we can't even have parade celebrations
without someone, this year 2 young people 22 and 17, getting shot to death...oh, RIP Jerry...
whatever your motives...

**Jerry Oz** · 09-08-2016, 12:36 PM

I recall my folks taking my sister, my brother, and me to see Blaxploitation movies at the drive-in in the 70s. We saw some of the most reprehensible behavior imaginable by the "heroes" of those awful films. When I was in junior high, my brother and I slipped into the local cinema to watch more if them when he was ~15 and I was ~13 years old. Neither of us grew up to be criminally minded. We don't carry guns, do drugs, or commit crimes.

While I will say that the music affects the culture, it is not the problem. The problem is the general degradation of societal values. And to suggest that "we" need to get it together is to ignore the fact that most of us already have it together. It's much bigger than suggesting that "we" embrace respect for our communities. I do, as I'm sure most here do. The solution is a long-term systemic paradigm shift that ensures that every child has a reasonable chance to succeed in life. It's too late for this generation.

It's just too bad that our country is more than happy to spend more on prisons and less on education to address the symptoms instead of the cause of this BS.

**Jerry Oz** · 09-08-2016, 04:56 PM

I agree with you, Marv. Yesterday, two of them shot and robbed a 73 year old man in Chicago who was doing nothing but watering his yard. They're way out of control. It's way too late for most of them; they are who they appear to be: feral and inhuman. But if the system that produces them is not changed, then we'd better get used to it.

**Jerry Oz** · 09-10-2016, 08:58 AM

And with genres like death metal and punk, would you understand people who didn't want to employ White kids, thinking that they were all devil worshipers and anarchists? Or would you understand if I ran away screaming from the nearly all White crowd that just left hockey game, having seen photos of White mobs standing, smiling around the bodies of Black men who are hanging from a tree?

There is never a reason to hold an opinion about one based on your experience with another. Generalizations based on race are ALWAYS wrong. If somebody presents himself to be a thug, then make whatever presumption you want. But if a kid cleans up and interviews better than the next guy, give him the job or the apartment. Otherwise, you are a racist.

**splanky** · 09-10-2016, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Oz

And with genres like death metal and punk, would you understand people who didn't want to employ White kids, thinking that they were all devil worshipers and anarchists? Or would you understand if I ran away screaming from the nearly all White crowd that just left hockey game, having seen photos of White mobs standing, smiling around the bodies of Black men who are hanging from a tree?

There is never a reason to hold an opinion about one based on your experience with another. Generalizations based on race are ALWAYS wrong. If somebody presents himself to be a thug, then make whatever presumption you want. But if a kid cleans up and interviews better than the next guy, give him the job or the apartment. Otherwise, you are a racist.

What a lot of people forget or overlook is that in America you have the right to be wrong.
Whatever the perceived wrong is. You don't have the right to practice racism in your professional business or create a danger to the public or other individuals because of your
beliefs, no, but you have the right to think whatever you want, even if it's considered racist.
I said I understood the views of some of those who are racist , not agreed, and I have lived
among racists at different times in my life, even practicing ones. You say generalizations based on race are always wrong but the reality is people of all races do it every single day.
It's how this country came to be...

**splanky** · 09-10-2016, 01:29 PM

That in a word is my problem with the current state of hip hop. I am not making a blanket
critique of the entire history and existence of the whole genre. Also, I have no problem
with an illustration of the negative aspects of the lives of many, hell, The Temptations did
that with Cloud Nine, The Spinner's with Ghetto Child and even Stevie Wonder with
Living For The City...It's the friggin' glamorization and boasting of these aspects that irks me.
Is it no surprise that several of these dumbass's that do such experience so drama in their
real life. Jail time is like a rite of passage for a lot rappers in the last 10 years or so, whether
it was Shyne, Ja Rule, Lyfe, C- Murder or the lastest fool Bobby Smurda. I am a 60 year old
black man who can barely relate to most black men 35 and under and I can remember growing up with kids and adults who all could enjoy most of the same music...What the funk
happened?...

**marv2** · 09-10-2016, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by splanky

That in a word is my problem with the current state of hip hop. I am not making a blanket
critique of the entire history and existence of the whole genre. Also, I have no problem
with an illustration of the negative aspects of the lives of many, hell, The Temptations did
that with Cloud Nine, The Spinner's with Ghetto Child and even Stevie Wonder with
Living For The City...It's the friggin' glamorization and boasting of these aspects that irks me.
Is it no surprise that several of these dumbass's that do such experience so drama in their
real life. Jail time is like a rite of passage for a lot rappers in the last 10 years or so, whether
it was Shyne, Ja Rule, Lyfe, C- Murder or the lastest fool Bobby Smurda. I am a 60 year old
black man who can barely relate to most black men 35 and under and I can remember growing up with kids and adults who all could enjoy most of the same music...What the funk
happened?...

You are really hitting it today Splanky! I remember enjoying the same music my father, mother, uncles etc enjoyed. They liked the Temptations, O'Jays, Marvin etc........so did I. I have had a problem understanding younger people that have appeared to have given up on life or improving their lives.

**StuBass1** · 09-10-2016, 01:37 PM

I agree Marv and Splanky...The songs you mentioned [[Cloud Nine, Runaway Child, Ghetto Child, etc) compelled us to LOOK at each other...The stuff on records and video's today compel us to HIDE from each other...

**marv2** · 09-10-2016, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by StuBass1

I agree Marv and Splanky...The songs you mentioned [[Cloud Nine, Runaway Child, Ghetto Child, etc) compelled us to LOOK at each other...The stuff on records and video's today compel us to HIDE from each other...

That is pretty profound Stu. Music today compels us to hide from each other, whew! I think a lot of it is tied to Ageism! For some reason in this country [[U.S.), we value and gear most everything to youth. Adults spend money on music, yet they promote only music to roughly the 15 -25 year old crowd. I don't watch those music awards shows anymore because I do not recognize 70% of the artists. They don't do love songs or positive message songs much anymore.

**Jerry Oz** · 09-10-2016, 01:54 PM

I remember hearing NWA's song "Dope Man" in a disco 30 years ago. It sounded cool with a sample of "Funky Worm" driving the music. I bought the cassette the next day and, as was my way back then, unwrapped it and threw into my car stereo immediately. Now, I don't always listen to song lyrics, but seeing the track listing compelled me to pay attention.

Good Lord. I listened to it once and popped it out before hearing all of it again. It was like aural poison. My cousin Tony got in the car and saw the case on the console. He couldn't believe that I had it already and asked to borrow. "Take it," I said. "Keep it. I won't be playing it again."

Classic win-win.

**marv2** · 09-10-2016, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Oz

I remember hearing NWA's song "Dope Man" in a disco 30 years ago. It sounded cool with a sample of "Funky Worm" driving the music. I bought the cassette the next day and, as was my way back then, unwrapped it and threw into my car stereo immediately. Now, I don't always listen to song lyrics, but seeing the track listing compelled me to pay attention.

Good Lord. I listened to it once and popped it out before hearing all of it again. It was like aural poison. My cousin Tony got in the car and saw the case on the console. He couldn't believe that I had it already and asked to borrow. "Take it," I said. "Keep it. I won't be playing it again."

Classic win-win.

I know what you mean Jerry.