Was Carolyn Crawford supposed to become Motowns new Mary Wells???...

[StuBass1]

https://youtu.be/_rg7EWDwRD0

[StuBass1]

She came along and got a lot of attention from Motowns "higher up's" at about the same time it became clear that Mary Wells was about to leave Motown...

[RossHolloway]

I think Carolyn was signed in '63, before it was known that Mary was leaving the label. From everything that I've read about Mary's departure, it came as a surprise to Motown that she was leaving.

[motony]

notice how Motown NEVER promoted another solo female singer after Mary left, until Diana went solo.The could have promoted Brenda Holloway, Kim Weston, Carolyn or a host of others but they didn't.

[marv2]

I think Carolyn was signed in '63, before it was known that Mary was leaving the label. From everything that I've read about Mary's departure, it came as a surprise to Motown that she was leaving.

I don't think it was that early. I believe Carolyn won a talent contest and the prize was the chance to record on Motown.

[marv2]

https://youtu.be/_rg7EWDwRD0

Did you notice that line about Pagliacci being the same line used in "Tears of a Clown"?

[longtimefan]

I don't think it was that early. I believe Carolyn won a talent contest and the prize was the chance to record on Motown.

France's Nero won a Motown talent contest and did very minimal recordings. Actually, she had a very unique voice that could have been nurtured.

Check out FRANCES NERO: KEEP ON LOVING ME on iTunes.

[snakepit]

Was Mary Wells' [[original) version of "When I'm gone" intended as the follow up to "My Guy"?
If so, it was pulled and the track given to Brenda Holloway......was SHE intended to be the replacement to Mary?

[arr&bee]

I think that[whisper you love me]was intended as the follow up to[my guy].

[RossHolloway]

I don't think it was that early. I believe Carolyn won a talent contest and the prize was the chance to record on Motown.

Forget About Me was released in October 1963. She was only with the label for a short period of time. She recorded up until early '65 with Motown.

[Zantellor]

I think Brenda Holloway was supposed to become the new Mary Wells. However in that space and time The Supremes broke out with their monster hits WDOLG? and Baby Love. Motown then prioritized The Supremes. Most of Motown's promotion was then centered on pushing The Supremes. Brenda never received the push she needed to put her on top. Nor did any other female soloist or group

[RossHolloway]

Was Mary Wells' [[original) version of "When I'm gone" intended as the follow up to "My Guy"?
If so, it was pulled and the track given to Brenda Holloway......was SHE intended to be the replacement to Mary?

I don't think she was intended to be Mary's replacement. Brenda's first single for Motown and Mary's last single - My Guy - were released within days of each other in March 1964.

[StuBass1]

It just seems to me that Carolyns voice was somewhat of a cross between Mary Wells and a little bit Wanda Rogers of the Marvelettes stylistically...Also, just the fact that Smokey, Mickey Stevenson and BG's right hand person, Janie Bradford got involved with her recording career seems to me that Berry Gordy had bigger plans for her than she actually ever achieved...

[marv2]

It just seems to me that Carolyns voice was somewhat of a cross between Mary Wells and a little bit Wanda Rogers of the Marvelettes stylistically...Also, just the fact that Smokey, Mickey Stevenson and BG's right hand person, Janie Bradford got involved with her recording career seems to me that Berry Gordy had bigger plans for her than she actually ever achieved...

I think Carolyn had a much rougher edge to her voice than either Mary or Wanda. Case in point her work here with Hamilton Bohannon:

[luke]

Brenda has also said because she was so young and easily frustrated per Gladys getting one of "her" songs she flew back to LA and severed her ties with Motown. Now she feels she should have been more patient.

[StuBass1]

That 70's piece by Bohannan is certainly a much rougher vocal style, but I was referring to her Motown work like the first song I posted or this one... https://youtu.be/kns7tUY4NAI

[Luciano]

Which song and which Gladys got Brenda song?

[marv2]

That 70's piece by Bohannan is certainly a much rougher vocal style, but I was referring to her Motown work like the first song I posted or this one... https://youtu.be/kns7tUY4NAI

I like this song. She is singing in her sixties girly style and it sounds great!

[luke]

Knight. I don't know if Brenda specified which song.

[RossHolloway]

I believe Brenda Holloway was recording with Smokey in Detroit when she left and flew back to LA. I find it odd that both Mary Well [[When I'm Gone) and Brenda Holloway were both working with Smokey when they left Motown.

[marv2]

I believe Brenda Holloway was recording with Smokey in Detroit when she left and flew back to LA. I find it odd that both Mary Well [[When I'm Gone) and Brenda Holloway were both working with Smokey when they left Motown.

Smokey worked with just about all the female artist at Motown in the 60's with perhaps the exception being Martha & the Vandellas.

[rrussi]

I met Carolyn several years ago when she was working with Martha Reeves. She told me Mary Wells was her idol and she performed "Operator" [[a Mary Wells B side) on the talent show which Berry Gordy was either attending or judging. She said she wrote an additional verse to the song, which she sang as she played the piano. She said when Mary Wells was either leaving or had left, she and her mother received a call to come to an important meeting at Motown. They were told they were going to get behind either Carolyn, Brenda, or Kim Weston in a big way and the decision hadn't been made which one, but to be ready as it will be a lot of work. The Mary Wells unreleased tunes Brenda did were When I'm Gone and I'll Be Available, which I think were the same backing tracks as Mary's versions, but When I'm Gone was really spiced up with strings and a slightly faster tempo. Brenda did do a version of Operator, but it is not the same backing track as Mary's. I guess if they chose one to get behind it was Brenda, but both Carolyn and Kim worked with Smokey too.

[Motown Eddie]

Smokey worked with just about all the female artist at Motown in the 60's with perhaps the exception being Martha & the Vandellas.

Smokey Robinson did work with Martha & the Vandellas. There is "No More Tearstained Makeup" on Watchout and "Give Him Up" on Come And Get These Memories.

[marv2]

Smokey Robinson did work with Martha & the Vandellas. There is "No More Tearstained Makeup" on Watchout and "Give Him Up" on Come And Get These Memories.

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks.

[Motown Eddie]

notice how Motown NEVER promoted another solo female singer after Mary left, until Diana went solo.The could have promoted Brenda Holloway, Kim Weston, Carolyn or a host of others but they didn't.

That's probably because on the heels of Mary Wells' departure from Motown, The Supremes began their great run of Number 1 [[and top ten) hits. Another possibility is that Gordy did not see another solo female artist that had the combination of talent & star power that he was looking for in a solo female star [[until Diana Ross laughed her solo career that is).

[Motown Eddie]

Did you notice that line about Pagliacci being the same line used in "Tears of a Clown"?

Yes! It's been well noted that Smokey Robinson first hit upon the theme of Pagliacci when he wrote Carolyn Crawford's 'My Smile Is Just A Frown' and returned to it for 'Tears Of A Clown' three years later.

[waynesville]

I never understood why Motown let Carolyn Crawford go..

[luke]

IMO Brenda sure had the "it" factor.

[midnightman]

The timeline is off then. If Carolyn left because Gladys Knight got "one of her songs", wouldn't she have still been in the label by the time Gladys got there in '66. Fonts here said she left in '65... what's the truth???

As for being the new Mary, nah. No one was. Once the Supremes begin making hit after hit, Berry and Motown focused on them mainly [[with the Four Tops, Temptations, Marvin and Stevie getting the other hits after them).

[luke]

BRENDA left cause for her the straw that broke the camel's back was Gladys getting one of her songs.

[luke]

Talk about star potential. Didn't she sign with Motown by 1968? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ClbGfCaz0AA

[rrussi]

Carolyn only had three singles issued on the label....I think the first was in 64. She did a lot of back up work too....I think she told me she is on Martha's "You've Been In Love Too Long".

[Motown Eddie]

Carolyn only had three singles issued on the label....I think the first was in 64. She did a lot of back up work too....I think she told me she is on Martha's "You've Been In Love Too Long".

The first single by Carolyn Crawford, 'Forget About Me'/'Devil In His Heart', came out on 10/31/1963. In addition to the three singles, she has a few songs on the Cellarful Of Motown series including 'Until You Came Along' & 'Too Young Too Long'

[Motown Eddie]

Here's a suggestion for the next Classic Motown collection from Ace Records; Carolyn Crawford's 'Complete Motown Recordings'. I'm sure she's got other great songs in the vaults that have yet to surface anywhere.

[RossHolloway]

Here's a suggestion for the next Classic Motown collection from Ace Records; Carolyn Crawford's 'Complete Motown Recordings'. I'm sure she's got other great songs in the vaults that have yet to surface anywhere.

All of Carolyn's recordings from Motown have been released. In total I think there were only 11 or 12 songs recorded.

[Motown Eddie]

All of Carolyn's recordings from Motown have been released. In total I think there were only 11 or 12 songs recorded.

I assumed that Carolyn [[like others at Motown during the '60s) had a lot of songs in the vaults. Thanks for the information.

[RossHolloway]

Here's a link to a previous discussion on Carolyn's recordings.

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread...rolyn+crawford

[rrussi]

I would think there would have been a lot more involved in Brenda leaving Motown than another artist recording a song intended for her. That was something that would happen quite often and I think it was always happening with Brenda since she lived in LA rather than Detroit.

[reese]

I would think there would have been a lot more involved in Brenda leaving Motown than another artist recording a song intended for her. That was something that would happen quite often and I think it was always happening with Brenda since she lived in LA rather than Detroit.

There was most likely much more to it that another artist getting her session, but that was probably one of the final straws. When Brenda left Motown, she wrote Berry a letter that was later published in [[I believe) Nelson George's book on Motown. Basically the letter stated that she felt neglected despite the fact that she had had some successful records. She came to the conclusion that it was because she was a California-based artist. Given that much of the entertainment industry, such as tv shows, was based there, she didn't understand why she wasn't getting prime tv exposure. She did thank Berry for helping with her songwriting, and ended the letter by saying that she was happy being a little part of Motown, and that she would always love the company and Berry.

In fairly recent interviews, Brenda has said something to the effect that Berry probably did have plans for her but in hindsight, she was impatient. She also mentioned that Berry really liked her sister Patrice and that the job that was eventually given to Suzanne dePasse was actually intended for Patrice.

[johnny_raven]

Back in the 80's, I remember reading a book on Motown [[or soul music) that had in it a letter that Brenda had sent to Berry. I don't remember precisely what it said, but she was pissed that she was at the company for nearly 5 years and only had 1 LP and many flopped singles.

[midnightman]

BRENDA left cause for her the straw that broke the camel's back was Gladys getting one of her songs.

AH! Thanks for the correction. Must've read too fast. I thought she had left because of her faith though? LOL I see you Brenda.

[motony]

so it wasn't too long after she left Motown that Brenda Holloway signed with HDH & had releases on Music Merchant which did nothing.I was really into the whole record/music scene during that time & I didn't know until years later that she had recorded & released product on an HDH label.

[RossHolloway]

so it wasn't too long after she left Motown that Brenda Holloway signed with HDH & had releases on Music Merchant which did nothing.I was really into the whole record/music scene during that time & I didn't know until years later that she had recorded & released product on an HDH label.

I believe that Brenda only had one release on Music Merchant, but she also recorded an albums worth of material there that went unreleased. I've also read where HDH helped Brenda get released from her contract at Motown. I'm not sure if she returned to Detroit to record for MM as I also recall reading that she didn't want to return to Detroit out of fear of running into Berry Gordy/Motown folks.

[midnightman]

Hmm, Brenda should write a book. She has stated that the PR reason for her leaving was because she was born again, which she said wasn't true. And info about her joining the HDH label is out there. Brenda was probably territorial: she never quite fit in with Detroit standards and Motown probably rubbed that in her face, which didn't make being there any easier. She didn't become a Detroit "immigrant" like Marvin [[D.C.) and Gladys/The Pips [[Atlanta/NY). I also wonder what song was it that Gladys got that she didn't get. I'm guessing "Everybody Needs Love"?

[reese]

I also wonder what song was it that Gladys got that she didn't get. I'm guessing "Everybody Needs Love"?

It might have been more than one. In the interview[[s) I've read, Brenda said something to the effect that a session would be planned for her. But then the Pips would come into town and her session would go to them because they had to go back on the road.

[midnightman]

Oh I see. Sounds like she got tired of getting bumped from sessions. For as much talk as Gladys makes about being overlooked, I think Motown respected her more than they did Brenda...

[motony]

I wonder why Brenda did not move to Detroit in 1965?