I'll keep holding on-the marvelettes....where's the harmony?

[arr&bee]

I love this killer from my girls,but i noticed that all the backing parts are sung in unison,maybe because they didn't have the best background voices, i just notice when i played the track.

[RossHolloway]

Are you sure it's Gladys and Katherine singing background and not the Andantes?

[drlorne]

Wikipedia lists the Andantes as well. Also states recording studio was Bell and Motown. I remember reading a long time ago that the group vocals were done in N Y because they were touring and the producers wanted to get the song out.

[theboyfromxtown]

When backing vocals are recorded, it's assumed that they are on the finished recording.

However, the extent to which they can be heard on the final product often makes me wonder whether they were, in fact, used.

[Sharpmoves]

The real issue here is when and why did Motown stop considering its female groups as vocal groups, and instead turn them into a lead singer with an anonymous background chorus? The same is true of the Four Tops, but certainly not the Temptations, but it is true of The Supremes, and Martha and the vandellas, both of which groups had excellent, characterful and strong background singers as part of the group. This can be clearly heard in live performances when they sound excellent, together and strong. It may have kept costs down perhaps to use The Andantes rather than Mary, Flo, Roz and Betty. But was that really an issue? I think it's very strange.

[Motown Eddie]

The real issue here is when and why did Motown stop considering its female groups as vocal groups, and instead turn them into a lead singer with an anonymous background chorus? The same is true of the Four Tops, but certainly not the Temptations, but it is true of The Supremes, and Martha and the vandellas, both of which groups had excellent, characterful and strong background singers as part of the group. This can be clearly heard in live performances when they sound excellent, together and strong. It may have kept costs down perhaps to use The Andantes rather than Mary, Flo, Roz and Betty. But was that really an issue? I think it's very strange.

There must have been a move at Motown to give the background vocals of these groups a more polished sound [[as well as saving time & money on the recordings). And according to the book about the Philly Soul Sound in the '70s, "A House On Fire", the producers there did the same thing with their acts. They had a female group called The Sweethearts of Soul that was the equivalent of The Andantes and a lot of the male background vocals were done by Bunny Sigler, Phil Hurtt, and even Gamble & Huff. Finally, the most important consideration for both Motown & Philly Int'l was getting the records they made played on the radio and absolute perfection was the goal [[above the character that the group members may give a recording).

[Motown Eddie]

I love this killer from my girls,but i noticed that all the backing parts are sung in unison,maybe because they didn't have the best background voices, i just notice when i played the track.

"I'll Keep Holding On" doesn't have a strong harmony part. Guess it was a decision by the producers of the song, Stevenson & Hunter, to have the background vocals sing in unison on this Marvelettes classic.

[Sharpmoves]

There must have been a move at Motown to give the background vocals of these groups a more polished sound [[as well as saving time & money on the recordings). And according to the book about the Philly Soul Sound in the '70s, "A House On Fire", the producers there did the same thing with their acts. They had a female group called The Sweethearts of Soul that was the equivalent of The Andantes and a lot of the male background vocals were done by Bunny Sigler, Phil Hurtt, and even Gamble & Huff. Finally, the most important consideration for both Motown & Philly Int'l was getting the records they made played on the radio and absolute perfection was the goal [[above the character that the group members may give a recording).

I saw the Sweethearts of Soul perform in 1970 - they opend for Aretha at the [[then) Hammersmith Odeon, and went on to back Aretha herself during her set. The Sweethearts were a powerful group, with a strong lead singer, as I recall. Could have been Martha and the Vandellas, but even more rootsey. It is interesting about getting "absolute perfection" - I actually prefer the earlier Motown recordings that sound more "live". But I take your point. These days they would use multi-tracking and probably a choir!

[theboyfromxtown]

The real issue here is when and why did Motown stop considering its female groups as vocal groups, and instead turn them into a lead singer with an anonymous background chorus? The same is true of the Four Tops, but certainly not the Temptations, but it is true of The Supremes, and Martha and the vandellas, both of which groups had excellent, characterful and strong background singers as part of the group. This can be clearly heard in live performances when they sound excellent, together and strong. It may have kept costs down perhaps to use The Andantes rather than Mary, Flo, Roz and Betty. But was that really an issue? I think it's very strange.

It was certainly an issue but the type of issue seems to depend on the group.

The Four Tops were really happy to have the Andantes on their records. The Temptations were not because to them, it meant that they could not reproduce the sound on stage.

[theboyfromxtown]

The real issue here is when and why did Motown stop considering its female groups as vocal groups, and instead turn them into a lead singer with an anonymous background chorus? The same is true of the Four Tops, but certainly not the Temptations, but it is true of The Supremes, and Martha and the vandellas, both of which groups had excellent, characterful and strong background singers as part of the group. This can be clearly heard in live performances when they sound excellent, together and strong. It may have kept costs down perhaps to use The Andantes rather than Mary, Flo, Roz and Betty. But was that really an issue? I think it's very strange.

It was certainly an issue but the type of issue seems to depend on the group.

The Four Tops were really happy to have the Andantes on their records. The Temptations were not because to them, it meant that they could not reproduce the sound on stage.

[reese]

There must have been a move at Motown to give the background vocals of these groups a more polished sound [[as well as saving time & money on the recordings). And according to the book about the Philly Soul Sound in the '70s, "A House On Fire", the producers there did the same thing with their acts. They had a female group called The Sweethearts of Soul that was the equivalent of The Andantes and a lot of the male background vocals were done by Bunny Sigler, Phil Hurtt, and even Gamble & Huff. Finally, the most important consideration for both Motown & Philly Int'l was getting the records they made played on the radio and absolute perfection was the goal [[above the character that the group members may give a recording).

The female group that did a lot of background vocals for Philly acts was called [[I believe) the Sweethearts of Sigma: Carla Benson, Evette Benton, and Barbara Ingram. When I saw them on tour with Patti LaBelle, she called them the Sweeties.

The Sweethearts of Soul were Aretha's background group and usually consisted of Brenda Bryant, Margaret Branch, and other members such as Pat Smith.

[blueskies]

http://www.soultracks.com/the-sweethearts-of-sigma

[Motown Eddie]

The female group that did a lot of background vocals for Philly acts was called [[I believe) the Sweethearts of Sigma: Carla Benson, Evette Benton, and Barbara Ingram. When I saw them on tour with Patti LaBelle, she called them the Sweeties.

The Sweethearts of Soul were Aretha's background group and usually consisted of Brenda Bryant, Margaret Branch, and other members such as Pat Smith.

That's right; I made a mistake in referring to the background singers at Philly as The Sweethearts of Soul. They were The Sweethearts of Sigma [[named for the Philadelphia Studio there they did most of their work). And The Sweethearts of Soul were Aretha Franklin's backup singers.

[jobucats]

This is my response to theboyfrommxtown:

My theory, which will anger some, is that it was more cost/time effective to be able to use session singers who were already in place in the studio as opposed to trying to coordinate a time where all the group's background singers could be in the studio at the same time. These groups were, for the most part, constantly on the road touring or doing other related activities. The lead singer could easily be given a recording of a demo/session singer teaching him/her the leading line and be ready to step in the studio to record his/her voice over the pre-recorded backing track. Teaching individual harmony parts, prescribed by the arranger/producer, is logistically not as easy. Most often, session singers doing background are more cost/time effective because they could actually READ music as opposed to harmonizing "by ear" or relying on the arranger or producer to teach them their part.

[lockhartgary]

There must have been a move at Motown to give the background vocals of these groups a more polished sound [[as well as saving time & money on the recordings). And according to the book about the Philly Soul Sound in the '70s, "A House On Fire", the producers there did the same thing with their acts. They had a female group called The Sweethearts of Soul that was the equivalent of The Andantes and a lot of the male background vocals were done by Bunny Sigler, Phil Hurtt, and even Gamble & Huff. Finally, the most important consideration for both Motown & Philly Int'l was getting the records they made played on the radio and absolute perfection was the goal [[above the character that the group members may give a recording).

I read that book some years ago and it was a good read. The Sweethearts of Sigma appeared on a lot of PI stuff, and were very prominent on Stylistics. Even Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes did not use all of the members in the studio.

[soulwally]

[QUOTE=lockhartgary;339304]I read that book some years ago and it was a good read. The Sweethearts of Sigma appeared on a lot of PI stuff, and were very prominent on Stylistics. Even Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes did not use all of the members in the studio.[/QUOTE
It's an excellent read. Coincidentally I've only just finished re-reading it as I've been going through one of my Philly sound-listening periods.
The book makes the point that groups like, for example the Blue Notes, had many years on the road and consequently had voices more geared for the stage. Thus they didn't have 'studio' voices, when everything had to be just so, so Hurtt, Sigler, Gamble and the ubiquitous Carl Helm filled in

[reese]

I read A HOUSE ON FIRE quite some time ago. But if I recall correctly, it said that the O'Jays were the only Philly male group that didn't have its background vocals augmented or just outright replaced by other vocalists.

[lockhartgary]

[QUOTE=soulwally;339328]

I read that book some years ago and it was a good read. The Sweethearts of Sigma appeared on a lot of PI stuff, and were very prominent on Stylistics. Even Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes did not use all of the members in the studio.[/QUOTE
It's an excellent read. Coincidentally I've only just finished re-reading it as I've been going through one of my Philly sound-listening periods.
The book makes the point that groups like, for example the Blue Notes, had many years on the road and consequently had voices more geared for the stage. Thus they didn't have 'studio' voices, when everything had to be just so, so Hurtt, Sigler, Gamble and the ubiquitous Carl Helm filled in

Thanks for pointing that out. It's been a while since I read the book and no longer have it. I meant to say that the SOS were prominent on the Spinners stuff. For example ,"Games People Play."

[Motown Eddie]

[QUOTE=soulwally;339328]

I read that book some years ago and it was a good read. The Sweethearts of Sigma appeared on a lot of PI stuff, and were very prominent on Stylistics. Even Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes did not use all of the members in the studio.[/QUOTE
It's an excellent read. Coincidentally I've only just finished re-reading it as I've been going through one of my Philly sound-listening periods.
The book makes the point that groups like, for example the Blue Notes, had many years on the road and consequently had voices more geared for the stage. Thus they didn't have 'studio' voices, when everything had to be just so, so Hurtt, Sigler, Gamble and the ubiquitous Carl Helm filled in

Which brings us back to The Marvelettes. I think that "I'll Keep Holding On" is the first single by them where the backgrounds were done by The Andantes. It helped give the group a more polished sound. PS; Wikipedia has a detailed breakdown of where The Andantes or The Marvelettes were used on the backgrounds on "The Pink Album".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvelettes_[[album)

[westgrandboulevard]

The Marvelettes : Forever : The Complete Motown albums - Volume 1

title shown as : 'I'll Keep On Holding On' :

Recorded April 5, 1965; background vocals April 16; additional or new background vocals and other overdubs recorded April 21 1965.

'Recorded April 5th' would seem to refer to Wanda's lead vocal.

It looks as if background vocals by The Marvelettes were indeed recorded on April 16th. Background vocals generally featured all three Marvelettes.

For some reason, Stevenson and Hunter then dubbed in The Andantes on April 21st . I'd say 'completely', as I can hear no blending of Marvelettes/Andantes background vocals on the released recording.

Wouldn't it be interesting to hear the original background vocals?! To know if they were sung in harmony - or in unison, as did The Andantes...and to guess why Stevenson and Hunter felt they could improve on what they had produced.

Perhaps the background vocals, if sung in harmony, seemed pitched a little too high when played back, and detracted from the lead vocal - or there was an audible vocal error?

Maybe the group members were not available to re-record at short notice, so The Andantes' mellow, contralto voices were then added, singing more simply in unison, to better showcase Wanda' fiery lead vocal.

Interestingly, the follow-up 'Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead', recorded shortly afterwards on June 2nd, DOES feature all Marvelettes on background vocals - some sung in unison, some in harmony....and which, apart from 'When You're Young And In Love', was the last single to feature background vocals by The Marvelettes.

[huntergettingcaptured]

"Maybe the group members were not available to re-record at short notice, so The Andantes' mellow, contralto voices were then added, singing more simply in unison..."

Westgrandboulevard, the thing that I've always found interesting about the Marvelettes is something you mentioned above- The Andantes were singing with contralto voices and in unison instead of harmonizing. Of all the Motown girl groups, to me it's ironic that a group that is always being scrutinized for their harmonizing and overall vocal sound, is the one that causes the most confusion as to if it's either the actual group or The Andantes. Especially on later recordings where the group was coming into its own, there have been times where both The Marvelettes and The Andantes are on the record and the blend is actually very good.

I know that for years, I didn't know the Marvelettes were doing backgrounds with the Andantes on "Young And In Love" or "This Night Was Made For Love." James Dean and William Weatherspoon were really good about using the actual members on recordings along with The Andantes and they always get a great sound where the blending is incredible.

Even more interesting, when The Andantes were singing in those contralto voices and in unison "The Day You Take One You Have To Take The Other," for example, sometimes it sounds incredibly like Katherine and Gladys or Wanda doing unison singing- or at least so close it's hard to tell. Speaking of which:

"Only Your Love Can Save Me," "Don't Make Hurting Me A Habit," "He Was Really Saying Something," "Barefootin'," "Message To Michael," are some songs where I REALLY have a hard time figuring out if it's The Marvelettes, The Andantes or both. Even during some of the harmony parts it's a really close call.

With The Supremes and Vandellas, I can pretty much always tell the difference, which again is ironic that the Marvelettes, who even themselves felt they weren't strong on harmony, could cause so much confusion even to this day.

[huntergettingcaptured]

P.S. "Rainy Mourning" is one of the greatest Marvelettes performances. Ivy Jo Hunter seemed to really enjoy working with the group and he had them doing some particularly complex and interesting singing [[how about "Just One More Kiss[[ Before You Leave Me)") and on "Rainy Mourning" I really believe he may have double tracked the group singing the harmony parts with all three, and then Wanda doing lead. I've listened to that song for years trying to figure it out, but on the line "it won't let me be" it does sound like the Marvelettes X 2 singing overlapping lines. Again, it shows that the group really had matured beyond the days of being called the "Casinyets"

[westgrandboulevard]

huntergettingcaptured.....

That's two very nice posts you've given us there.

Exactly what many of us who hang around SD are always hoping to see.

Working your two posts backwards....

I'll pull out 'Rainy Mourning' and 'Just One More Kiss [[Before You Leave Me)', put them on repeat, and listen very carefully, this time bearing in mind your comments.

Time doesn't allow me to give you my own detailed opinion just now.

Perhaps, when you have the time to do it, you would first let us know your own thoughts about the background vocals on those tracks you have mentioned [[and also listed again below).

Tell us where YOU think that....

only the Marvelettes are featured....
or, only The Andantes,
or, both?

[[Wikipedia on the 'Pink' and 'Sophisticated Soul' albums gives a very good guide, even if not entirely accurate, IMO. It also doesn't state exactly where each group can be heard on those tracks which feature both Marvelettes and Andantes)

'Your Love Can Save Me'
'Don't Make Hurting Me A Habit'
'He Was Really Saying Something'
'Barefootin'
'Message To Michael'



Will get back to you and see if we agree.....and maybe some other Marvelettes fans will also chime in with their own thoughts.

[huntergettingcaptured]

Hi Westgrand-

First off, I really am learning some great things from you and the other posters on this thread. I didn't know there was a Wikpedia page for "The Pink Album" AND that the page is incredibly detailed...and correct in those details. I love that they got it right about Gladys and Wanda sharing the lead on "Keep Off, No Trespassing." I would love to know who contributed to that page because they were right on the money in every way.

Which brings me to a few of the songs that I've wondered about for years. "Barefootin'" does feature the voices of Gladys and Katherine and "Message To Michael" features Wanda and Katherine with The Andantes. That one was always a bit tricky for me to detect if it was a blend or only Wanda and Katherine.

"He Was Really Saying Somethin'" has Wanda and Katherine only, which I felt, but then again, wasn't really sure. Just another example of how good the Marvelettes had gotten and how difficult it can be to tell who is who when the Andates sing unison in those contralto voices [[and when I read you identify that as "contralto," it was like, Ah Ha!)

Now, as for "Your Love Can Save Me," I think it's a blend of Katherine and Anne with the Andantes. And the only reason I'm certain of at least the Andantes presence is because at times they harmonize their parts with those operatic tones.

Now, "Don't Make Hurting Me A Habit" is a real puzzler. There are times when I could swear I'm hearing Katherine and Ann with the Andantes very subtly mixed in. When the vocals get to the part where the backing vocals answer Wanda's "Allright/Okay," well that is a very expert and clever bit of vocal arranging. I keep trying to discern if Katherine and Ann are in the mix, holding the last note of the word "Okay" while the Andantes sort of well up from behind them and carry the vocal to that high note- a 2-part overlapping vocal. Then, listening to the alternative version on the Marvelettes box set is still very tricky to figure out what's exactly going on.

I've just always thought it very interesting that the Marvelettes could come so far from their teen-age sound to their more polished, adult sound as to cause this much confusion.

[Motown Eddie]

Hi Westgrand-

First off, I really am learning some great things from you and the other posters on this thread. I didn't know there was a Wikpedia page for "The Pink Album" AND that the page is incredibly detailed...and correct in those details. I love that they got it right about Gladys and Wanda sharing the lead on "Keep Off, No Trespassing." I would love to know who contributed to that page because they were right on the money in every way.

Which brings me to a few of the songs that I've wondered about for years. "Barefootin'" does feature the voices of Gladys and Katherine and "Message To Michael" features Wanda and Katherine with The Andantes. That one was always a bit tricky for me to detect if it was a blend or only Wanda and Katherine.

"He Was Really Saying Somethin'" has Wanda and Katherine only, which I felt, but then again, wasn't really sure. Just another example of how good the Marvelettes had gotten and how difficult it can be to tell who is who when the Andates sing unison in those contralto voices [[and when I read you identify that as "contralto," it was like, Ah Ha!)

Now, as for "Your Love Can Save Me," I think it's a blend of Katherine and Anne with the Andantes. And the only reason I'm certain of at least the Andantes presence is because at times they harmonize their parts with those operatic tones.

Now, "Don't Make Hurting Me A Habit" is a real puzzler. There are times when I could swear I'm hearing Katherine and Ann with the Andantes very subtly mixed in. When the vocals get to the part where the backing vocals answer Wanda's "Allright/Okay," well that is a very expert and clever bit of vocal arranging. I keep trying to discern if Katherine and Ann are in the mix, holding the last note of the word "Okay" while the Andantes sort of well up from behind them and carry the vocal to that high note- a 2-part overlapping vocal. Then, listening to the alternative version on the Marvelettes box set is still very tricky to figure out what's exactly going on.

I've just always thought it very interesting that the Marvelettes could come so far from their teen-age sound to their more polished, adult sound as to cause this much confusion.

Long before The Marvelettes made the 'Pink Album' in 1967, they recorded "Knock On My Door" in 1963 [[which would remain in the vaults until 1986). The track features both The Andantes and The Marvelettes on the background vocals [[they're trading off on the parts saying "hey boy" & "my boy").