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  1. #51
    And who is gong to fund the more than generous social entitlement programs that Scotland has become so accustomed to which are currently paid for, lock, stock, and barrel by the Brits with Scottish oil sitting at a meager $50 per barrel. Does Merkel have a secret stash set aside with billions to cover those costs???...I think when faced with that reality, Scotland will think better of going it alone to join an organization which will likely get hit with a domino effect when movements like Czechout, Frexit, and the other more successful economies get tired of propping up the failed economies like Greece, Spain, etc...The EU is a socialist experiment with a few non elected officials setting policy affecting 60% of the lives of the citizens of it's member countries...Yes...the failed economies may like it for the opportunity to get bailed out by the wealthier countries...but the citizens of the more successful governments will see the negative aspects of what the EU has wrought. If they want to see the result of Socialist economies where great natural resources are present...they need to take a look at Venezuela, where the Hugo Chavez/Sean Penn style economy have Venezuelans out in the streets protesting the hunger they are experiencing due to a lack of food...and when they protest...the Venezuelan authorities handle the problem of protesters by just shooting them...All the while...sitting on one of the largest oil reserves in the world, and failing to account for the decline in oil prices through intelligent economic planning. Hugo Chavez SISTER remains the wealthiest person in Venezuela...Good luck EU...Merkel got her cheap labor...now the price tag is becoming a reality in areas of failed economic growth, uncontrolled immigration with unfettered multi-culturalism, and political upheavel...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-28-2016 at 03:14 PM.

  2. #52
    Which is part of the issue, strange though it may seem a large number of people in The UK actually like The Americans and have an inherent distrust of some of our neighbours on The Continent. As a result they are very wary of anything designed to "take on The Americans". I did used to be very "Pro-Europe" in the 1970s and 1980s, but the way they have imposed The Euro on countries which were clearly unsuited to it has managed to kill off any enthusiasm I used to have.

    Roger
    The "distrust" between the US and Mexico (mostly) and/or Canada are canards fabricated mostly by one megalomaniac in his quest for the presidency. To wit, there are a lot of issues in the UK with the EU, one of the most prevalent being with immigrants employed in English jobs and lowering wages. Undocumented immigrants in the US actually keep the economy afloat by taking jobs that no American wants for pay that none would accept.

    If Trump wins, I hope he starts with all of the immigrants who work on the farms and in custodial and landscaping roles first. At a time when there is a deep divide within the Democratic party about raising the minimum wage to $15/hour (with zero reason to believe the Republicans will be inclined to do so), can you imagine all of a sudden filling those extremely difficult $4/hour jobs with US citizens who are "suffering" through a period with 5.8% unemployment?

    It won't happen. There are simply too many available jobs that pay more for less work and frequently in air conditioned environments. The anti-immigrant angst and generally xenophobic sentiment that is portrayed in the media is pure BS and nobody on television or in press is honest enough to discuss it for what it is: an economic reality, not a legal or social problem. Prices for everything will skyrocket without those workers and Donald J. Trump and every one of his shills knows it.

    The rate of crimes committed by undocumented immigrants is lower than that committed by Americans in general. The fervor for building a wall and kicking them all out was kicked off solely by the fearmongering son of perdition whose true agenda is to strengthen the grips of the American apartheid that we're already experiencing and ensure that White people will remain in power after they are no longer the majority in the next 30 years.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Oz View Post
    The "distrust" between the US and Mexico (mostly) and/or Canada are canards fabricated mostly by one megalomaniac in his quest for the presidency. To wit, there are a lot of issues in the UK with the EU, one of the most prevalent being with immigrants employed in English jobs and lowering wages. Undocumented immigrants in the US actually keep the economy afloat by taking jobs that no American wants for pay that none would accept.

    If Trump wins, I hope he starts with all of the immigrants who work on the farms and in custodial and landscaping roles first. At a time when there is a deep divide within the Democratic party about raising the minimum wage to $15/hour (with zero reason to believe the Republicans will be inclined to do so), can you imagine all of a sudden filling those extremely difficult $4/hour jobs with US citizens who are "suffering" through a period with 5.8% unemployment?

    It won't happen. There are simply too many available jobs that pay more for less work and frequently in air conditioned environments. The anti-immigrant angst and generally xenophobic sentiment that is portrayed in the media is pure BS and nobody on television or in press is honest enough to discuss it for what it is: an economic reality, not a legal or social problem. Prices for everything will skyrocket without those workers and Donald J. Trump and every one of his shills knows it.

    The rate of crimes committed by undocumented immigrants is lower than that committed by Americans in general. The fervor for building a wall and kicking them all out was kicked off solely by the fearmongering son of perdition whose true agenda is to strengthen the grips of the American apartheid that we're already experiencing and ensure that White people will remain in power after they are no longer the majority in the next 30 years.
    Theres no going be any wall and Mexico isnt going to pay for any wall. Trump is full of hot air and dangerous fearmongering.

  4. #54
    Actually while I agree with Roberta that Trump will never be elected President...we have two real "winners" (please detect my sarcasm) running for President this time around...Actually...a couple of crapburgers...but the Dems have the ground game and a naturally built in electoral advantage while Trump will say to many stupid things to get elected...That aside, and to Jerry's assertions...Amazing that while hundreds of thousands of people left the workforce last month, to be replaced by only about 35,000 while the so called "unemployment rate actually DECLINED should tell us that the real unemployment rate in the United States in well into the double digits and actually approaching 20%...If we reported unemployment like Canada or many other countries, that's where our unemployment rate would be. I just had major surgery and haven't worked in some time...yet according to our labor statistics...I'm EMPLOYED...So many people have given up looking for work due to the economy, yet they are also counted as EMPLOYED...and to Jerrys point...Americans real income has stagnated and actually declined in recent years...All cheap labor has done has pushed down wages in those jobs to where Americans don't want them due to people willing to perform them for bargain basement wages. If a guy is willing to clean septic tanks for 8 bucks an hour...yes...few Americans are going to accept those jobs...but if there are not people willing to do those jobs for 8 bucks an hour...then the wages for those jobs will go to 15-20 bucks an hour and plenty of Americans will find cleaning septic tanks a much more desirable employment opportunity...Simple economics...People aren't doing jobs Americans don't want...American workers are not accepting jobs that others will accept for crap wages for doing crap work...Lose every low pay and benefit worker and I guarantee you...septic tanks will be cleaned because Americans know their shit...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-28-2016 at 02:12 PM.

  5. #55
    SutBass, I'll go further than that: Lose those jobs and we'll go from that double digit real unemployment rate to a state of overemployment. If jobs become a buyers' market from the standpoint of the employees, then we'll have a problem with people trading jobs as well as with inflation.

    The people at the top of the economic ladder know this. They've been using undocumented workers for over a century, Trump included to keep from paying market-based wages. That's the true reason why they oppose almost all paths to citizenship, even for people who have lived and worked here for decades. They breathe lies to keep the folks at the bottom from realizing that globalization is not the cause for the "good jobs going to Mexico and China", but rather their greed. They also breathe lies to make people think that they can buy a 79 cent head of iceburg lettuce with an American picking it instead of someone else.

    The same economic reality that many had the day after the Brexit vote is what we would experience the day after we built a wall and kicked them all out: Our economy and way of life rests on these people. We all know it, but we won't talk about it in public discourse of the "problem". If it's about principle, then I say do; kick them all out, but they won't. The only principles involved are the economy weighed against the increasing diversity of the population.

    And my only disagreement with your view is that I believe a hungry man will grab a lifeline, even if it's for $12.50/hour but I think many or most of those who have fallen out of the labor market aren't willing to work for less than they think they deserve. Even if it's enough to fulfill their needs. I can't blame them or judge them. But if I had to, I'd work as hard for McDonald's as I did for the job that I quit two years ago that paid me four times as much.

    When the US lost the production and manufacturing jobs, we shifted heavily to a service-based economy and people are only going to pay for the service if it's cheaper and more convenient than if they can do it themselves. It's my opinion that the cost of service combined with a glut of people willing to perform it is what has kept wages down.

  6. #56
    Let me give you an example which highlights your last point Jerry...not sure if it agrees or disagrees with your position...However, a person very close to me who immigrated to the United States legally after years of applying and spending tens of thousands of dollars who finally got permission to come to work with her husband...Husband a Phd was able to get a college teaching job, and she, with a masters level degree also a private teacher...Two people coming to contribute to our society and culture having to sign a statement as a condition of work permits that they would never apply for any federal economic assistance and would support themselves...Those same people had to go through all of this while watching "undocumented" or illegal people just walking across the border...some seeking work, others involved in smuggling or other illegal activities...while Los Angeles Country alone spends nearly 2 BILLION dollars per year on services and other costs directly related to the so called undocumented immigrants...Being a taxpayer in Los Angeles county...I can think of many many more pressing needs to spend that 2 Billion dollars on then people who crossed the border illegally, utilized our services, and we paid for their benefits, incarcerations, legal and judicial fees, etc...My question is...how would you feel if you waited years, spent tens of thousands of dollars to come here legally, and then just watched as people walked across the border at will and even being given taxpayer resources for their law breaking efforts???...I have many immigrant friends...most here legally, some perhaps illegally...I have financially helped a couple of them directly to be able to remain here. That said...we have a serious problem going back decades...I don't believe that calling for defined borders is racism...although some people would call anyone who wants our borders protected "racist"...I've come to the conclusion that when people just use the "racism" argument...it's like a quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds in the closing seconds of a close game...It stops the clock for any rational and intelligent discussion on the topic, usually because the accuser has run out of logical arguments...As Edmund Burke I believe stated..."Personal attack is the last refuge of the scoundrel who has nothing of substance to say"...I actually had a guy from Berlin, Germany call me a racist because I was trying to explain some of the reasons the British voted for the Brexit...I responded to this A-Hole that I was out demonstrating for civil rights in the 60's while this jerk was still in lederhosen...and he had some nerve sitting there at the epicenter of Kristallnacht talking about MY alleged racism LOL...There's even more to this story which exposes some of the problems of undocumented people coming here, but I won't go into that now...This first part of the story should end all the discussion ...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-28-2016 at 03:07 PM.

  7. #57
    Hungry men in the UK don't work, they make much more money from begging on the streets. A guy in my apartment block would dress like a down and out and take his dirty smelly blanket to the local train station (Old Street) at 7:00 every morning and return at about 10:00. More recently, I've seen fights when someone pinches a good patch

    In London, we also have big problems with women from the former Eastern Bloc counties who walk the length of the train carriages carrying a baby that is "sleeping" (it's actually drugged). In particular, they patrol the Heathrow airport area pouncing on tourists who will be making their way into Central London.

    France has lots of begging too. However, in the south of France, the beggars have dogs because it limits the powers of the police.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Petitions mean absolutely nothing in Great Britain...They have petitions for virtually everything. The House Of Commons would still have to explain to a clear majority why they reversed the will of the people...They even had a petition to ban Donald Trump...That one accomplished nothing too...LOL
    Any petition that gets 100.000 signatures has to be considered for debate in Parliament.

  9. #59
    The number of males from the middle east immigrating to Sweden (especially to marry ugly Swedish women for the benefits) is becoming a major problem...Sweden guarantees them a monthly stipend, so they don't have to work to survive...That's why I say that IKEA in Sweden is literally running out of mattresses...

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Let me give you an example which highlights you last point Jerry...not sure if it agrees or disagrees with your position...However, a person very close to me who immigrated to the United States legally after years of applying and spending tens of thousands of dollars who finally got permission to come to work with her husband...Husband a Phd was able to get a college teaching job, and she, with a masters level degree also a private teacher...Two people coming to contribute to our society and culture having to sign a statement as a condition of work permits that they would never apply for any federal economic assistance and would support themselves...Those same people had to go through all of this while watching "undocumented" or illegal people just walking across the border...some seeking work, others involved in smuggling or other illegal activities...while Los Angeles Country alone spends nearly 2 BILLION dollars per year on services and other costs directly related to the so called undocumented immigrants...Being a taxpayer in Los Angeles county...I can think of many many more pressing needs to spend that 2 Billion dollars on then people who crossed the border illegally, utilized our services, and we paid for their benefits incarcerations, legal and judicial fees, etc...My question is...how would you feel if you waited years, spent tens of thousands of dollars to come here legally, and then just watched as people walked across the border at will and even being given taxpayer resources for their law breaking efforts???...I have many immigrant friends...most here legally, some perhaps illegally...I have financially helped a couple of them directly to be able to remain here. That said...we have a serious problem going back decades...I don't believe that calling for defined borders is racism...although some people would call anyone who wants our borders protected "racist"...I've come to the conclusion that when people just use the "racism" argument...it's like a quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds in the closing seconds of a close game...It stops the clock for any rational and intelligent discussion on the topic, usually because the accuser has run out of logical arguments...I actually had a guy from Berlin, Germany call me a racist because I was trying to explain some of the reasons the British voted for the Brexit...I responded to this A-Hole that I was out demonstrating for civil rights in the 60's while this jerk was still in lederhosen...and he had some nerve sitting there at the epicenter of Kristallnacht talking about MY alleged racism LOL...There's even more to this story which exposes some of the problems of undocumented people coming here, but I won't go into that now...This first part of the story should end all the discussion ...
    StuBass1

    I am on the same wavelength.

    Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.

    As much as I hated Thatcher, this is one time when even I would have wanted her to take control. Cameron has let us down and I hope he is shamed in history books as the one that bottled out of leading his country when he was most needed.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Any petition that gets 100.000 signatures has to be considered for debate in Parliament.
    Parliament does NOTHING but debate...they debate EVERYTHING...even Donald Trump (LOL)...however, it means nothing, and Great Britain is NEVER going to refute the 52% of their voters who voted in favor of Brexit...It would undermine Britain's entire system of rule by electoral majority. That debate will be nothing more than a bunch of hoots, ahems, hear hear's, and OOOoooo's attempting to drown out speakers like every other controversial debate in the chambers of Parliament...

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    Winging Brats the lot of them .. totally pathetic .. and these people think they are being "Democratic" and are "fighting for inclusiveness/liberal values" etc. etc. etc .. the hypocrisy is appalling .. and the worst thing is that I know people who have signed this!!
    I might have been inclined to agree with you except for the fact that , ironically, the petition was started by Oliver Healey, a pro-Brexit campaigner who was expecting a narrow Remain victory.

  13. #63
    StuBass, I don't disagree with your viewpoint at all. But I'll make note of the following wherein I think we see things differently:
    My question is...how would you feel if you waited years, spent tens of thousands of dollars to come here legally, and then just watched as people walked across the border at will and even being given taxpayer resources for their law breaking efforts???...
    There is a reason why the couple you referenced aren't working in the fields. That reason is also why they went the right way about coming to the States. The problem isn't with the workers, by the way. It's with the employers willing to exploit them and the system that is willing to look the other way. They wouldn't go through that effort to pick oranges one month, apples the next, and cabbage in a state 500 miles away after that.

    I've read that ICE schedules its raids on factories in such a way that they never impact the operation of those facilities. They give the managers advance notice and won't hit the same place again for years. The company might receive a token fine. The government and private industry are complicit in the crime, but it's the worker on whom we focus our enforcement efforts. It's like the drug war. Arresting the druggies isn't slowing down use, so maybe it should be reevaluated.
    That said...we have a serious problem going back decades...I don't believe that calling for defined borders is racism...although some people would call anyone who wants our borders protected "racist"...I've come to the conclusion that when people just use the "racism" argument...it's like a quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds in the closing seconds of a close game...It stops the clock for any rational and intelligent discussion on the topic, usually because the accuser has run out of logical arguments...
    Closing the borders is not, in and of itself, racism. Racism is what you call it when instead of focusing your reasons on the truth, you describe an entire class of people as murderers and rapists as your reason for wanting to do so. The problem is not how many Mexican criminals we have to contend with; we have a ridiculous amount of Americans doing much more and worse. It's not the jobs that they take; Americans don't want the jobs that they have. The "problem" is that politicians need to stoke the flames to get voters excited and whether they are racist or not, race plays a HUGE role in politics.

    By the way, it'll cost a lot of money to maintain the wall (forget trying to get Mexico to pay for it). You might want to evaluate how much of your tax dollars are being spent on services for illegal immigrants compared to how much will be spent to keep them out. By the way, the vast majority of them actually work for a living, so whether they are paying taxes or not, their employers are. Consequently, they are actually footing the bill for a lot of those services in Los Angeles and elsewhere.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    StuBass1

    I am on the same wavelength.

    Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.

    As much as I hated Thatcher, this is one time when even I would have wanted her to take control. Cameron has let us down and I hope he is shamed in history books as the one that bottled out of leading his country when he was most needed.
    As the link I posted above clearly points out...The UK was out and out lied to when they initially agreed to join the EU...The EU turned into a bunch of unelected bureaucrats making the decisions which affect about 60% of the day to day realities of British life as well as many of the legal and judicial realities in the UK...In other words...Brits gave away their sovereignty under false pretenses to an organization consisting of career politicians...many of whom are only in their positions because they lost elections in their home countries...Their military is a complete joke, so any mutual defense pacts are ridiculous as was clearly illustrated in the Balkans crisis when NATO had to move in...and the UK is certainly entitled to continue their free trade policies...EU or not...That said...the UK can now decide how it will assist countries like Greece who through their own irresponsibility went belly up, and what to do in their own country about immigrants and who will enter their country and under what circumstances...In other words...The UK reclaimed control of their every day lives and returned to a system that served them well for close to 1,000 years...

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    StuBass1

    I am on the same wavelength.

    Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.
    Please click the link below. You'll find an American tourist in Manchester being harassed on a tram. "You're a dirty little immigrant. Get off back to Africa." Consider the fact that the person was neither an immigrant nor from Africa and explain to me why the people doing the yelling are not racists. Anybody who makes an assumption (positive or negative) based on race and acts on that assumption is a racist. It may not describe you, but do not pretend that race is not a significant reason for the sentiment.
    http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2016/...abuse-american

    Just as it was in the earlier example of someone being told to speak English in the UK when they were speaking Welsh in Wales. Had the person not had Islamic clothing and probably a darker complexion, that conversation would not have occurred. People who deny racism exists are the ones who perpetuate it, not those who see it and call it out, even when you don't think it is warranted.

  16. #66
    Jerry...I absolutely agree that employers exploiting illegal immigrants and the system should be subject to not only fines...but jail terms in some cases. I can say that as someone who employed many people in Los Angeles, that the paperwork and documentation necessary to legally employ ANYONE is quite cumbersome to prove legality to work.. Obviously, there are forged documents and some employers who ignore the law, and they should be penalized...and heavily...Funny to me also that from people I'm aware of who claim to be the anti-racist and pro-immigrant leftist types that many of them are the ones who will utilize illegal immigrant labor in their fancy homes in a heartbeat...Our immigration system is broken and needs to be fixed, but we can't just throw our hands up in the air and ignore the vital need for extensive and secure border enforcement...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-28-2016 at 03:57 PM.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    I might have been inclined to agree with you except for the fact that , ironically, the petition was started by Oliver Healey, a pro-Brexit campaigner who was expecting a narrow Remain victory.
    Yes ... so I found out a couple of days back. Hilarious isn't it!!

    Mind you, there are still forces out there that want to declare the result of the referendum invalid for various reasons ... not enough people voted (even though a turnout of 72% is very high by the standards of UK elections), people didn't know what they were voting for, the "Leave" team lied (apparently we are supposed to believe that all the claims of the "Remain" side were 100% true), a lot of people only voted "Leave" as a joke, people who voted "Leave" weren't properly educated, a similar vote today might give a different result .... etc. etc. etc.

    As I've previously mentioned, The EU has had a long and shameful history of ignoring national referendums when it suited them, so until Article 50 (the formal divorce notice) is actually invoked I'm still prepared for some legal hiccup.

    Roger

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Oz View Post
    Please click the link below. You'll find an American tourist in Manchester being harassed on a tram. "You're a dirty little immigrant. Get off back to Africa." Consider the fact that the person was neither an immigrant nor from Africa and explain to me why the people doing the yelling are not racists. Anybody who makes an assumption (positive or negative) based on race and acts on that assumption is a racist. It may not describe you, but do not pretend that race is not a significant reason for the sentiment.
    http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2016/...abuse-american

    Just as it was in the earlier example of someone being told to speak English in the UK when they were speaking Welsh in Wales. Had the person not had Islamic clothing and probably a darker complexion, that conversation would not have occurred. People who deny racism exists are the ones who perpetuate it, not those who see it and call it out, even when you don't think it is warranted.
    I would never condone any overt racist act anywhere, anecdotal or not...But with tens and hundreds of millions of people in any given country...I'm not going to look at the actions of a few moronic knuckleheads and assume that they represent an entire political movement (although I'm all for dealing harshly with those individuals), anymore than I look at the idiots from PETA or Code-Pink , or other fanatical far left idiots and assume that they represent all left of center thinking here in America...

  19. #69
    Lets see...Dow Jones up 250 points today and the S&P set a 4 month record increase...So goes that economic calamity caused by Brexit we've been warned about

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Oz View Post
    Please click the link below. You'll find an American tourist in Manchester being harassed on a tram. "You're a dirty little immigrant. Get off back to Africa." Consider the fact that the person was neither an immigrant nor from Africa and explain to me why the people doing the yelling are not racists. Anybody who makes an assumption (positive or negative) based on race and acts on that assumption is a racist. It may not describe you, but do not pretend that race is not a significant reason for the sentiment.
    http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2016/...abuse-american

    Just as it was in the earlier example of someone being told to speak English in the UK when they were speaking Welsh in Wales. Had the person not had Islamic clothing and probably a darker complexion, that conversation would not have occurred. People who deny racism exists are the ones who perpetuate it, not those who see it and call it out, even when you don't think it is warranted.
    Jerry

    I'm not denying that there are racists in the UK but I do not consider race to be a significant issue of Brexit. I also do not consider religion to be a significant issue of Brexit but there are some media folk who would want me to believe it is. That is just my personal opinion.

    On my bus ride back from Islington today (the home territory of Boris Johnson), a mother was shouting at the younger of her 2 little boys in Turkish in a way that made me suspect she must be scolding him. I have no idea why - they were on the bus when I got on. One woman and her friend clearly did not approve as they were making glib comments. Eventually, the mother could hear that they were calling her out. The scolding stopped when both mother and son turned to focus their attention on the two women. The woman who started making the comments was dark skinned but her friend was a much lighter complexion. The Turkish mother had all of her hair fully exposed and was not wearing any religious clothing.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Lets see...Dow Jones up 250 points today and the S&P set a 4 month record increase...So goes that economic calamity caused by Brexit we've been warned about
    I saw that, but, it ain't over.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    StuBass1

    I am on the same wavelength.

    Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.

    As much as I hated Thatcher, this is one time when even I would have wanted her to take control. Cameron has let us down and I hope he is shamed in history books as the one that bottled out of leading his country when he was most needed.
    John,

    Boris Johnsof has disassociated himself with one of the Leave campaign posters because he considers it racist.

    I agree that focusing on immigration is not in itself racist; but it has the unfortunate effect of encouraging extremists to jump on the bandwagon. There has already been an increase in racist graffiti since the result.

  23. #73

  24. #74
    The biggest factor promoting increasing racism is unfettered immigration into countries where people believe that their way of life, traditions, and institutions are under assault. One in five Germans are now of migrant origin and in 2014 rose an astonishing 3%. Add in the problem of so many of todays immigrants refusing to integrate and assimilate into the societies they are flocking to. That's where you get the so called "no-go" zones where even police and other authorities are afraid to enter as these societies within a society create their own institutions and laws...whether based on Sharia or just what we here would refer to as the wild wild west...Certainly immigration was a key factor in the recent Brexit vote, but absolutely not the only factor. The belief by many Brits that they are losing control of their nation with the most important decisions affecting their lives being made by career politicians from other countries in a foreign capital is still the primary reason for the Brexit vote...Back to immigration and racism or ethnocentrism...I have been warning for several years now that this free flow of immigrants into Europe was going to explode at some point. Controlled immigration is not the problem, has never been the problem either here in the U.S. or in Europe...however, when several European countries, in their quest for cheap labor actually encouraged the multi-culturalism that has impacted so many parts of Europe and when the EU stood idly by as waves of immigrants came by land and sea in the tens of thousands at a time and facilitated them while giving so called "host countries" little to no say as to how many immigrants, refugees, and suspected infiltrators they would help enable to enter the various EU member countries regardless of how the citizens of those countries felt about it...the racism and division we see today was bound to happen. NO great nation, society, culture, or even Empire going back centuries has ever survived multiple cultures, languages, traditions, or political boundaries for long without integration and assimilation by those new immigrants entering it...The closest I can think to that is Canada, where the French and English speaking factions have found a fairly stable accommodation, however, their cultures are quite similar and their laws and values are largely the same...Not like the recent immigrants to Germany, France, the UK, Sweden, etc...My biggest fear quite frankly is Germany where Merkel is the biggest proponent of the multi-cultural approach...much like Von Hindenburg as their leader in the 20's and into the 30's was quite friendly to the Jewish population there and allowed them to thrive and neither Jews nor the outside world imagined in their wildest dreams what the German people and government were capable of if convinced that their culture and way of life was under assault. Von Hindenburg then...much like possibly Merkel in a few years, could possibly give way to far right facist types who will point to the ever increasing number of assaults on women by middle eastern immigrants, a dramatic increase in crime rates in major cities, and one or two major terrorist attacks along with a serious economic crisis could likely in my opinion push Germany over the edge...After all...we've seen it there before and it's apparently in their national DNA...Until stability returns first of all to the middle east and northern Africa, decreasing the need for massive immigration, and the EU decides to crack down on the unfettered immigration we've seen in recent years and countries learn to provide their own workers by increasing wages within their countries...I do fear what will eventually happen...When a significant and growng percentage of Americans can nominate a candidate like Donald Trump for the highest office in our land based significantly on fears of more illegal immigration, multi-culturalism, and a decline in traditions and values...then it can happen anywhere. It's just a shame that the only alternative to Trump this time around is Hillary Clinton for reasons I'll not get into at this time...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-29-2016 at 09:43 PM.

  25. #75
    Stocks surging again today...All the Brexit hysteria fears turning into rubbish...Dow up close to 300 and NASDAC up almost 100...and S&P up about 35 points... Predictions from the anti-Brexit leaders were nothing but scare tactics...Markets will rise and fall...Brexit notwithstanding...That has already run it's course as an issue in our markets...

  26. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    John,

    Boris Johnsof has disassociated himself with one of the Leave campaign posters because he considers it racist.

    I agree that focusing on immigration is not in itself racist; but it has the unfortunate effect of encouraging extremists to jump on the bandwagon. There has already been an increase in racist graffiti since the result.
    I have been let down by Boris since the result and I'm now looking at Andrea Leadsom. I dont believe that a former REMAIN campaigner has total commitment to take us forward.

    I agree that focusing on immigration does have an unfortunate effect but it needs to be tackled and not glossed over. Every debate that I saw had that topic on the agenda.

  27. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Stocks surging again today...All the Brexit hysteria fears turning into rubbish...Dow up close to 300 and NASDAC up almost 100...and S&P up about 35 points... Predictions from the anti-Brexit leaders were nothing but scare tactics...Markets will rise and fall...Brexit notwithstanding...That has already run it's course as an issue in our markets...
    If you look again, the Dow plunged again. You're a little too quick with this. Step away from Fox news...LOL!

    The markets are still very volatile because of this, and you're not going to see a lot of stability. The attack in Turkey probably didn't help, but don't get too smug.

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    I agree that focusing on immigration does have an unfortunate effect but it needs to be tackled and not glossed over. Every debate that I saw had that topic on the agenda.
    One cannot deny that a lot of people voted to leave because of immigration issues. Just like here, the extremists latched on to Donald Trump because of his highly offensive anti-immigration stance. Racists can sniff that like nothing else!

  29. #79
    I heard someone put forward this hypothetical question in a debate.

    How would America react to being told that it is now going to be run from Mexico, in a lavishly built office to be paid for by the American people. The rules will be made by unelected officials and there will be free movement of people between America and Mexico. The dollar will be replaced by the peso.

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    If you look again, the Dow plunged again. You're a little too quick with this. Step away from Fox news...LOL!

    The markets are still very volatile because of this, and you're not going to see a lot of stability. The attack in Turkey probably didn't help, but don't get too smug.
    You should look again Soulster my friend...While I agree that smugness is never a characteristic any investor should employ...DJ is up well over 100 points today, as are all the other exchanges, as we speak...It's on a three day recovery...Markets are always volatile...if they weren't...I'd take all my money and throw it into the exchange as would everyone else and we'd all get very wealthy ...Doesn't work like that, but over time, history has shown us that the market will always be on an upward trajectory and market investments should be based on a ten year growth pattern...not based on day to day fluxuations, except the losses on Friday made investing on Monday very favorable...That said, the scare tactics some here in our country, including some leaders in our government, tried to use to convince us to convince our British cousins to vote with the remain faction failed,and quite frankly...some of those arguments put forth were admittedly quite foolish...like we will have another country to have to negotiate with???...So freaking what???... And now those same politicians are backing down from their claims...I don't consider it any of my business to tell the British what to do with their government, except to say that centralized governments, expecially a model where politicians from other countries become the ruling party for the politics and policies of another country can never be a good thing any more than we would accept 60% of our governments policies being made in Canada and Honduras being at the epicenter of our judicial system which is exactly what the UK was dealing with... Illegal immigration is a problem in our country...Due to the policies of Merkel and the EU...LEGAL immigration became the huge problem in the UK...The electorate there just said...enough is enough...I doubt they'll be the last...The EU has turned into Merkels great experiment...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-30-2016 at 12:18 PM.

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    I heard someone put forward this hypothetical question in a debate.

    How would America react to being told that it is now going to be run from Mexico, in a lavishly built office to be paid for by the American people. The rules will be made by unelected officials and there will be free movement of people between America and Mexico. The dollar will be replaced by the peso.
    Very good analogy...Ultimately, the EU becomes a highly centralized economic model similar to the Hugo Chavez/Sean Penn model which is now predictably tearing Venezuala apart...Venezuela, with some of the most profitable oil reserves in the world didn't, like many other oil producing countries did...plan for the fluxuating downturn in oil prices due primarily to Chavez's economic ignorance...except he was smart enough to make sure his sister became the wealthiest person in Venezuela... Today...there are people starving in the streets of Venezuela and there is no food except for the political elite...and those protesting the governments policies are being shot in the streets by Venezuelan authorities...That's what Socialism has brought us each and every time it's been tried...No exceptions, except perhaps the "new wave" utopian model Bernie Sanders had promised us LOL...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-30-2016 at 12:14 PM.

  32. #82
    Stubass1

    That hypothetical question arose during Obama's recent visit to London. Although it was not addressed to him directly, it was reported in the media and he (or his aides) would have seen it, just like I did. Unsurprisingly, Obama never commented and it was suggested that it might have hit more than just a raw nerve.

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    Stubass1

    That hypothetical question arose during Obama's recent visit to London. Although it was not addressed to him directly, it was reported in the media and he (or his aides) would have seen it, just like I did. Unsurprisingly, Obama never commented and it was suggested that it might have hit more than just a raw nerve.
    I sometimes think that our President sees the world (at least the western world) in one tightly knit homogenous package (with him at the head of it of course)...I think he's always had grander plans than just being President of The United States and could readily see himself as the President of some vast conglomeration between North America and the European Union...He as President and some sort of Merkel as his Vice President...Hmmm...LOL

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    I heard someone put forward this hypothetical question in a debate.

    How would America react to being told that it is now going to be run from Mexico, in a lavishly built office to be paid for by the American people. The rules will be made by unelected officials and there will be free movement of people between America and Mexico. The dollar will be replaced by the peso.
    The U.K. joining the E.U. happened decades ago. You make it sound like it was last week.

    BTW, Mexico is in America. So is Canada. We are all three sovereign nations. We are talking to you from the U.S.. What you should be speaking of is sovereignty.

    I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but didn't the U.K. become part of the E.U. in 1973, almost a decade after it formally applied for membership by a conservative?
    Last edited by soulster; 06-30-2016 at 01:51 PM.

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    I sometimes think that our President sees the world (at least the western world) in one tightly knit homogenous package (with him at the head of it of course)...I think he's always had grander plans than just being President of The United States and could readily see himself as the President of some vast conglomeration between North America and the European Union...He as President and some sort of Merkel as his Vice President...Hmmm...LOL
    Again, dude: ease away from the wacko far-right conspiracy theorists. That idea is way out there!

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    The U.K. joining the E.U. happened decades ago. You make it sound like it was last week.

    BTW, Mexico is in America. So is Canada. We are talking to you from the U.S..
    So the UK was a member of the EU for a few decades based on the decisions of politicians at that particular time after governing themselves for close to 1,000 years...It took the Colonies over 150 years to get tired of being ruled by a foreign power and sending massive taxes overseas to prop up a monarchy, much like the current Brits got tired to living by rules and laws largely established in Brussels by politicians...many of whom are there only because they lost elections in their home countries...The fact that the UK are Islands around the rest of the European continent and we are landlocked with Mexico and Canada fails to add significance to the fact that Canada and Mexico are different country's than ours, different cultures and laws which we must abide by when we travel to those countries...however, those cultures and laws have no business impacting the laws established in 1787 by OUR Constitution, unless the Congress and the people HERE decide to change those laws through the amendment process...If we abided by Mexicos laws...we would imprison every illegal or "undocumented" immigrant who entered our country, because that's what they do...and obviously, we don't want to model our laws after the ineffective laws of a country that is largely run by drug cartels...As for Canada...their health care system is horrible...A person I know well was told to wait 9 months for a necessary surgical procedure...She happened to move here, and after a 90 day probation period with the employer provided medical insurance had the surgery within 3 weeks...It's horrible up there which is why those Canadians who can afford it come here and pay cash for their medical treatments...As for our new ACA...Without MASSIVE revenue increases (meaning huge tax increases on all Americans), the system will crash within two years...Supporters shrugged off the largest health Insurance company, United Health Care, claiming that it's losses with the ACA were unsustainable when they announced they were pulling out of the California (the largest health care market in America) and just did...NOW, Blue Cross, the company with the most vested interest in the ACA has just announced that they can't sustain and are pulling out of the Minnesota exchange...I have a friend whose wife has a huge job Anthem Blue Cross and was actually acting CEO for a brief period...When the ACA first came in they were flying high...built a condo in Maui where they allowed her to work from 6 months of the year, along with their Los Angeles area house, and the condo they bought for their kid in Las Vegas...That was when the dollars from the ACA were flowing in and they hadn't paid much out yet and bonus plans to employees were most generous for a brief period of time...A couple of years later...Anthem Blue Cross is cutting back drastically as the bills coming in are not keeping pace with the premiums coming in...My friends, who have spent the majority of their adult lives in Southern California might be forced to move to the Blue Cross home office in Indiana...Sucks, but it's all been predictable...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-30-2016 at 02:30 PM.

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    Again, dude: ease away from the wacko far-right conspiracy theorists. That idea is way out there!
    Didn't say it would happen...just what I think the President (and maybe Merkel) dream about at night...That's what the "LOL" was for...LOL
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-30-2016 at 02:15 PM.

  38. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    Stubass1

    That hypothetical question arose during Obama's recent visit to London. Although it was not addressed to him directly, it was reported in the media and he (or his aides) would have seen it, just like I did. Unsurprisingly, Obama never commented and it was suggested that it might have hit more than just a raw nerve.
    Again...my buddy Soulster's far-right-whacko -conspiracy's notwithstanding...I think this President, and many of his supporters would go for it, so long as this President was in charge of it...despite not considering what would happen when another party ultimately came into power...That's the problem with all "authoritarian" based governments...Someday, someone else may have the authority...LOL
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-30-2016 at 02:43 PM.

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    The U.K. joining the E.U. happened decades ago. You make it sound like it was last week.

    BTW, Mexico is in America. So is Canada. We are all three sovereign nations. We are talking to you from the U.S.. What you should be speaking of is sovereignty.

    I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but didn't the U.K. become part of the E.U. in 1973, almost a decade after it formally applied for membership by a conservative?
    Soulster

    If you do not wish to answer, that's not a problem.

  40. #90
    So long as there's Wimbledon...all's well in Great Britain

  41. #91
    Here's where the more successful countries in the EU, much like the UK, and immigration aside are eventually going to tire of their participation in the EU which today exists largely to boost Angela Merkel's self esteem and power base...Example # 1...My buddy Soulster (whom I do have the utmost respect for), and I decide to open competing lemonade stands...He calls his Germany/Britain and I call mine Greece...Soulster spends a great deal of time seeking out the finest and freshest lemons, going from produce house to produce house while I take the easiest and cheapest lemons I can get my hands on...Soulster builds an impressive looking stand with clean comfortable seating and serves his lemonade in large and clean plastic cups while I go to Smart & Final and buy the cheapest Styrofoam cups they have in bulk and sell them from my clapboard stand I plastered together with 2X4's...Soulster keeps his stand open 8 hours a day, seven days a week while I keep my stand open 6 hours a day (with an hour break in the middle) and close on weekends with a weeks vacation every month...Although Soulster works very hard...his work ethic pays off and he builds very successful enterprise. My lemonade stand can't compete with his, I'm not making any money, in fact I'm losing money, and then go to Soulster and ask him to start an organization where every lemonade stand owner is governed by common rules...and if one is unsuccessful or goes belly up...the more successful stands will bail him/her out, regardless of what type of work ethic the failing stand employs so Soulster ends up using his hard earned profits to cover my negligent losses. That's what Merkel (and a few others) , for the sake of her political stature in Europe has allowed to happen (particularly as pertains to Greece and now Spain)...That's why Venezuela is such a failure, because even IF person is willing to work harder than his neighbor...he/she is only going to be compensated by the government the same as his lazier next door neighbor thanks to government policy as to what level of productivity they will allow...The result...food riots in the streets of Caracas and other cities with protesters being shot by the authorities...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 06-30-2016 at 04:31 PM.

  42. #92
    It's actually all go in GB at the moment. Prime Minister contenders being stabbed in the back, Labour party leadership battles, Wimbledon umpires not being able to spot "out" balls....and there's even a little glimpse of sun in between the torrential rain.

    As Harold McMillan said in 1957, Britons have never had it so good

  43. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    It's actually all go in GB at the moment. Prime Minister contenders being stabbed in the back, Labour party leadership battles, Wimbledon umpires not being able to spot "out" balls....and there's even a little glimpse of sun in between the torrential rain.

    As Harold McMillan said in 1957, Britons have never had it so good
    And the Open Championship less than a month away at Royal Troon...Could this be the year that Monty finally wins it all???...

  44. #94
    On Facebook - CNN International asks

    Post Brexit plan....how about the UK being the 51st State?

    The free movement would mean no VISA's would be required!

  45. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    On Facebook - CNN International asks

    Post Brexit plan....how about the UK being the 51st State?

    The free movement would mean no VISA's would be required!
    We love ya UK...But not THAT much

  46. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    We love ya UK...But not THAT much
    We're gutted Stubass1....

    But we still love ya too!

  47. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    We're gutted Stubass1....

    But we still love ya too!
    Great advice...You just got out of one bad marriage...don't go jump right into another...

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Here's where the more successful countries in the EU, much like the UK, and immigration aside are eventually going to tire of their participation in the EU which today exists largely to boost Angela Merkel's self esteem and power base...Example # 1...My buddy Soulster (whom I do have the utmost respect for), and I decide to open competing lemonade stands...He calls his Germany/Britain and I call mine Greece...Soulster spends a great deal of time seeking out the finest and freshest lemons, going from produce house to produce house while I take the easiest and cheapest lemons I can get my hands on...Soulster builds an impressive looking stand with clean comfortable seating and serves his lemonade in large and clean plastic cups while I go to Smart & Final and buy the cheapest Styrofoam cups they have in bulk and sell them from my clapboard stand I plastered together with 2X4's...Soulster keeps his stand open 8 hours a day, seven days a week while I keep my stand open 6 hours a day (with an hour break in the middle) and close on weekends with a weeks vacation every month...Although Soulster works very hard...his work ethic pays off and he builds very successful enterprise. My lemonade stand can't compete with his, I'm not making any money, in fact I'm losing money, and then go to Soulster and ask him to start an organization where every lemonade stand owner is governed by common rules...and if one is unsuccessful or goes belly up...the more successful stands will bail him/her out, regardless of what type of work ethic the failing stand employs so Soulster ends up using his hard earned profits to cover my negligent losses. That's what Merkel (and a few others) , for the sake of her political stature in Europe has allowed to happen (particularly as pertains to Greece and now Spain)...That's why Venezuela is such a failure, because even IF person is willing to work harder than his neighbor...he/she is only going to be compensated by the government the same as his lazier next door neighbor thanks to government policy as to what level of productivity they will allow...The result...food riots in the streets of Caracas and other cities with protesters being shot by the authorities...
    This analogy is oh-so-incorrect Stu. In modern-day Europe the Lemonade stand that you have decided to call "Greece" would be expected to have exactly the same standards as the Lemonade stand you have decided to call "Germany" (can't think where you have got those names from ) though the actual hours the two operated, the prices they charged, and the wages they paid their staff, might differ. If the Lemonade stand called "Greece" went bust it would have to shut down.

    Indeed the whole point is that Germany (the country) has refused to bail out countries such as Greece and Spain after huge sectors of their economies have collapsed.

    A better analogy might be to imagine a street with two men living opposite each other, let us call them Mr Greece and Mr Germany, both of whom run a small business. Mr Germany has a successful and very profitable business, Mr Greece's business is reasonably successful, not quite as profitable as Mr Germany's business but it makes enough for Mr Greece to live quite comfortably.

    Then one day both Mr Greece and Mr Germany are given a credit card with a seemingly infinite credit limit and with very low interest rates. Mr Germany thinks that his business is doing OK already and decides to leave his credit card in a drawer in his house and not use it. Mr Greece however thinks that this is finally his chance to upgrade his business to the same standards as that of Mr Germany, so he uses his credit card to buy new equipment, plus a new car and a flash new suit to go along with the way he now wants to present himself to the world. For a few years it goes well for Mr Greece, but the sales of his company don't increase and he starts to get bills from his credit card company demanding interest payments. The interest payments cut into his company's profits and he finds that the only way he can make ends meet is to lay off many of his workers and close parts of his business. In the meantime Mr Germany's business is thriving and his profits are constantly increasing.

    Mr Greece asks his credit card company to write off his debts, but the credit card company says they can only do that if Mr Germany pays Mr Greece's interest payments instead. As Mr Germany steadfastly refuses to do this Mr Greece is left to continue paying his ever increasing interest payments from his ever decreasing company products.

    Roger

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by roger View Post
    This analogy is oh-so-incorrect Stu. In modern-day Europe the Lemonade stand that you have decided to call "Greece" would be expected to have exactly the same standards as the Lemonade stand you have decided to call "Germany" (can't think where you have got those names from ) though the actual hours the two operated, the prices they charged, and the wages they paid their staff, might differ. If the Lemonade stand called "Greece" went bust it would have to shut down.

    Indeed the whole point is that Germany (the country) has refused to bail out countries such as Greece and Spain after huge sectors of their economies have collapsed.

    A better analogy might be to imagine a street with two men living opposite each other, let us call them Mr Greece and Mr Germany, both of whom run a small business. Mr Germany has a successful and very profitable business, Mr Greece's business is reasonably successful, not quite as profitable as Mr Germany's business but it makes enough for Mr Greece to live quite comfortably.

    Then one day both Mr Greece and Mr Germany are given a credit card with a seemingly infinite credit limit and with very low interest rates. Mr Germany thinks that his business is doing OK already and decides to leave his credit card in a drawer in his house and not use it. Mr Greece however thinks that this is finally his chance to upgrade his business to the same standards as that of Mr Germany, so he uses his credit card to buy new equipment, plus a new car and a flash new suit to go along with the way he now wants to present himself to the world. For a few years it goes well for Mr Greece, but the sales of his company don't increase and he starts to get bills from his credit card company demanding interest payments. The interest payments cut into his company's profits and he finds that the only way he can make ends meet is to lay off many of his workers and close parts of his business. In the meantime Mr Germany's business is thriving and his profits are constantly increasing.

    Mr Greece asks his credit card company to write off his debts, but the credit card company says they can only do that if Mr Germany pays Mr Greece's interest payments instead. As Mr Germany steadfastly refuses to do this Mr Greece is left to continue paying his ever increasing interest payments from his ever decreasing company products.

    Roger
    I did enjoy your analogy Roger, however, if we'd like to reduce these examples to actual countries...I'd still maintain that Greece's failure is due largely to it's lack of productivity based on the output, but it is true that they work as many hours as most other Eurozone countries...Fewer though than the typical American...Between 1990 and 2008, Greece accumulated a 23% productivity gap with Germany, and increased as time went on...Greece's debt was a function of an economy which was non-productive (probably next to Russia the most non-productive economy in all of Europe), non-competitive, and borrowing was the only way Greece could continue to function from an economic standpoint...If Greece's debt were eliminated tomorrow, the Greek economy would still not grow substantially enough to catch up with the rest of Europe according to leading economists... Greeks structural problems of low productivity and non-competitiveness (which is what I was attempting to point out in my example) will keep Greek in the taker column for years to come...

  50. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    I did enjoy your analogy Roger, however, if we'd like to reduce these examples to actual countries...I'd still maintain that Greece's failure is due largely to it's lack of productivity based on the output, but it is true that they work as many hours as most other Eurozone countries...Fewer though than the typical American...Between 1990 and 2008, Greece accumulated a 23% productivity gap with Germany, and increased as time went on...Greece's debt was a function of an economy which was non-productive (probably next to Russia the most non-productive economy in all of Europe), non-competitive, and borrowing was the only way Greece could continue to function from an economic standpoint...If Greece's debt were eliminated tomorrow, the Greek economy would still not grow substantially enough to catch up with the rest of Europe according to leading economists... Greeks structural problems of low productivity and non-competitiveness (which is what I was attempting to point out in my example) will keep Greek in the taker column for years to come...
    Well yes Stu, everthing you say I can agree with but you seem to be missing out one key factor, the common currency "The Euro" used throughout most of The EU. In my analogy the "unlimited credit card" was the moment that Greece joined The Euro. When that happened the Greeks, along with The Spanish, Irish, Portuguese and Italians, found themselves in a currency area with low interest rates that were very appropriate for Germany (where people and institutions were reluctant to borrow) but not for less productive countries where people were keen to borrow but reluctant to understand the consequences. The temptation for The Greeks etc. to use their credit card was too much, they maxed out their limit and the bills have now arrived.

    Fortunately for us in Britain there was enough resistance to joining the single currency in the late 1990s that our then chancellor, Gordon Brown, had enough popular support to be able to keep us out. This may be seen in certain quarters as "proof that we were never really interested in The EU Project to begin with", I prefer to see it as us (together with the other refuseniks Denmark and Sweden, and later Poland, The Czech Republic and Poland) showing profound economic common sense.

    Roger

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