An even messier situation is that now Scotland wants to rejoin the E.U..
Interesting times, indeed!
An even messier situation is that now Scotland wants to rejoin the E.U..
Interesting times, indeed!
Seems the bullying and scaremongering tactics by the 'Remain' campaign didn't scare our electorate as they thought it would.
June 23, 2016 will go down as our Independence Day.
Time to play Gladys Knight & the Pips 'It's Time to Go Now' I think!
I knew you would come up with almost half a dozen songs that suit, when I could only think of one!
Time for bed I think!
Last edited by bradburger; 06-24-2016 at 04:29 AM.
An even messier situation is that now Scotland wants to rejoin the E.U..
Interesting times, indeed![/QUOTE OMG What a mess this is,i have friends and family who voted OUT asking what have they done,what did they expect 43 years of establishment wiped out,dread to think what next few years will be like for the lets say poorer people of society,myself included,P..... Off with D... heads
The thought of Johnson and Trump leading these 2 countries makes me feel sick.
The £ has fallen, so I probably won't be buying many new imports. More seriously, food prices are likely to go sky high as we import so much.
I remember we used to have continual problems with our Balance of Payments, but this wasn't so important when we were in Europe. With the erosion of our manufacturing base, I can't see invisible exports being enough for us to pay our way.
I don't know how far the stock market is going to fall, but at the moment there must be a great increase in the massive deficits that there are in pension funds. Everybody's pensions could be in jeopardy.
An additional problem is that our legal system is inextricably entwined with Europe now. After 40 years of Europe, I don't know how many generations it will take to disentangle them. I suspect lawyers will do well out of this.
As far as Scotland is concerned, their independence referendum took place under the premise that the UK would remain a member of the EU. The Scots have every right to demand a new referendum, and there is little doubt in my mind that this time it would be successful, thus precipitating the breakup of the United Kingdom. England alone would have a permanent Conservative majority, and one-party rule is not good for any democracy.
So honest man, be afraid. Be very afraid.
So, it looks like you have been Trumped. Walls are going up everywhere.
My spies tell me that this song has been heard echoing around the corridors in Brussels near the lovely Jean Claude Juncker's office .....
Last edited by soulster; 06-24-2016 at 08:59 PM.
Winston Churchill just lit a cigar from inside his grave...
He should probably save it. It's going to cost a lot more to replace it tomorrow.
Well, there's good news and bad news about Brexit. The bad news is apparently, people in England have been drinking American Kool-Aid and suffering some of the same effects the Yanks seem to have displayed regarding critical thinking and the importance of the ballot. The good news is that they can no longer afford that particularly toxic concoction, so perhaps they can steer forward with clear heads.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7102516.htmlAnger Over "Bregret" As Leave Voters Say They Thought UK Would Remain In EU
Remain voters are voicing their outrage amid claims by some people who voted for a Brexit that they regret their decision.
Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday’s result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a “protest vote” in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union.
The anxiety – dubbed “Bregret” – emerged as the value of the pound tumbled and markets crashed, while some felt betrayed by Nigel Farage’s admission that a Vote Leave poster pledging to spend millions of pounds supposedly given to the EU on the NHS was a “mistake”.
Mandy Suthi, a student who voted to leave, told ITV News she would tick the Remain box if she had a second chance and said her parents and siblings also regretted their choice.
“I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because this morning the reality is kicking in,” she said.
“I wish we had the opportunity to vote again,” she added, saying she was “very disappointed”.
Khembe Gibbons, a lifeguard from Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, also said she had regrets about her decision after Mr Farage said he could not guarantee NHS funding.
"We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie,” she wrote.
"I personally voted leave believing these lies, and I regret it more than anything, I feel genuinely robbed of my vote."
A woman calling into an LBC radio show echoed the sentiment, saying she felt “conned” by the claim and felt “a bit sick”.
A voter who gave his name as Adam told the BBC he would have changed his pro-Brexit vote if he knew the short-term consequences it would have for the UK economy.
"The David Cameron resignation has blown me away to be honest and the period of uncertainty that we’re going to be magnified now so yeah, I’m quite worried,” he said.
"I'm shocked that we voted for Leave, I didn't think that was going to happen. I didn't think my vote was going to matter too much because I thought we were just going to remain."
A blogger from Sheffield shared a message from a friend working in electoral services, claiming Brexit voters and pro-Remain members of the electorate who failed to turn out because they were confident of the win had been calling in.
“We had people phone up today wanting to change their vote or ask if they could still vote as they don’t want to leave,” the message read.
Several pro-EU politicians voiced their suspicions that some Leave voters would have regrets on Friday, with Labour MP Diane Abbott and Green MP Caroline Lucas saying Euroscepticism had become a “kind of proxy” for deep-seated problems with immigration, the NHS and other key issues.
Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister, said the Remain campaign had failed to show people the referendum “was not a protest vote against the Government or indeed the Establishment”.
Opinion polls in the months leading up to Thursday’s historic vote had dominantly shown a lead for Remain, although surveys in recent days showed the result on a knife-edge and around 10 per cent of the electorate still undecided – generating a huge swing.
The final result was 17,410,742 votes for Leave (51.9 per cent) compared to 16,141,241 for Remain (48.1 per cent), on a turnout of 72 per cent.
The close result has generated calls for a second referendum, as well as growing fury from pro-EU voters at the U-turn from some Brexiters.
Paul, a gamer, tweeted: "So leave voters have realised what they done and regret voting leave and would vote remain given another chance? Bit late now."
“Really NOT enjoying people saying they voted Leave and now regret it, just shush please, not helping,” another added.
The result has sparked plans for a second independence referendum in Scotland, where all electoral districts voted Remain, and a petition for London to declare independence from the rest of the UK and apply to join the EU.
Can you say: idiots? Perhaps a lot of the "leave" voters" thought it was just a protest vote. Obviously, they were grossly mis-informed. And, the rest...c'mon! Why in the hell did you vote yes when you really didn't want to leave? And, why didn't more younger people vote?
The same could happen here, too! This is the same scenario that could happen if Donald J. Trump actually gets in. All these Trump supporters are voting for him out of protest, but what happens on November after the polls close and the realize that he actually won, reality kicks in, and they realize that they really don't want to live in a Trump America, and that they were just unhappy, and seduced by his lies of unbridled posterity for all (except Muslims and Latinos), when all he wanted was the power? What would happen if the neo-nazis and the klan finally get their man in the white house?Gun control? Women's' rights? Equity for Blacks and Gays? A crazy Supreme Court Justice nominee with a crazed congress? Countries banning him left and right, and severing relations with us? Trump giving shared economic control of the U.S. to Putin? Joe Arpaio being emboldened to start harassing and deporting anyone who looks Mexican, and open season on Muslims. Parts of the country wanting to secede from the union. It makes one wonder what is in store for the U.K..
It could happen. Right now, a lot of Sanders' supporters are thinking hard about not voting or finding a third party candidate to give their vote to, thanks to Bernie's painting Hillary Clinton as being anti-progressive. The way many of them see it, if they can't have $15 as a minimum wage (something Bernie couldn't promise would happen, BTW), they'd just as soon have a madman who will cost millions their jobs instead of someone who might be able to raise it to $12. Instead of free education at state universities, they'll take someone who will abolish the Department of Education over Clinton, who shares similar views to their candidate.
I don't think most will feel this way after the debates, but many (like Cenk Uygur of "The Young Turks") are so butt hurt, they're willing to see at least four years of Donald Trump's America come into being. It seems that the US and British voters have a lot in common as far as the responsibilities and consequences of democratic action/inaction.
Two and a half million people have already signed a petition on the parliamentary website calling for a second EU referendum.
WIth 33 million votes cast, that leaves about 23 million more names to account for most of the Leaves actually wanting to vote again. Even then, who's to say that those names would be for actual voters? This was a one time deal and good or ill, the will of the electorate is always right.
Awww,poor little [eu's]what are they gonna do now? Those darn[uk's]big bullies.
The humiliation manifested itself in some very interesting ways.
Unfortunately, the best argument those seeking to remain in the EU advanced was essentially..."We know this organization sucks...but leaving will be such a hassle in reorganizing the economic and political matters it's just easier to remain"...Keep in mind that the United States was formed by colonies seeking liberty from a far away ruling entity...those colonies having no major beef with each other deciding to form a union for the mutual defense, interstate economy, and laws limiting the authority of the Federal government while recognizing the inalienable rights of the individual...versus the EU made of numerous sovereign nations who had been at war with each other for centuries, now expected to get along and arrive at rules and laws which equally apply to all for the common good...Good luck with all that...Now just imagine how the voters in the United States would feel if 60-70% of the rules impacting our lives were made in Canada...and judicial decisions made in Mexico???...I feel that this so called Brexit is just the beginning...The disparity in the economies of the various EU entities will sooner or later convince the more economically stable nations that they are tired of economically propping up the Greece's and other irresponsible populations of their hastily thrown together organization...How long will the industrious people of Germany who like many Americans work long hours to provide a good living to themselves and their families continue to pay the bills of Greece who expects it's citizens to work no more than like 30 hours per week with two months vacation each year???...That's why the EU members want to make this a very fast "divorce"...hoping that the British mood doesn't spread to other members as the EU continues to shrink as a function of the worlds GDP and ensuing influence...
Last edited by StuBass1; 06-26-2016 at 10:50 PM.
There have already been moves by some EU countries to follow suit if the UK chose to leave. It's being referred to as the "domino effect"
Can I add that President Obama has always enjoyed a favourable reputation with Brits until he chose to speak against the LEAVE campaign during a recent visit. That was not a good idea and just a little too personal for some of those in the 52% camp.
I am sure Americans would not approve of our Prime Minister telling America how they should run their country. If he did, I would expect a far greater backlash than us Brits gave to President Obama!
Thank you...And in addition, If I were the Brits, I'd be not too concerned about idle Scottish threats of trying to leave the UK once again. When they tried it last time, oil, the most significant revenue producer in the Scottish economy (Johnny Walker Blue and classic Northern Soul recordings notwithstanding lol), was at record high prices...Oil today, at around $50 a barrel would devastate the Scottish economy if they had to fund all the social programs currently provided to them by the British controlled UK...
It would be pretty funny though if Scotland left the UK and joined the EU, and when they went belly up...went hat in hand to the EU like Greece, begging Germany to bail them out to pay for the social entitlement programs that the UK had previously footed the bill for...LOL
Last edited by StuBass1; 06-26-2016 at 10:52 PM.
The reason we're watching so closely is because this is affecting our markets, too, and we have another politician who is promising voters pie in the sky: Donald Trump. What's happened in the U.K. is a big warning to us. If he wins, I can see it all now: "You're Mexican! Go back to your own country!" And, we have hundreds of little racist militia groups running around with their legal assault rifles, and certain country sheriffs and states who will try to enforce it. Hell, we already have a politician who is running on "Make America White Again". You have a famous rock artist...Eric Clapton...a supporter of Enoch Powell, who had been saying to make England White again, too!
Last edited by soulster; 06-27-2016 at 10:36 AM.
And yet ultimately the question was "who do we want to be governed by"? Did we want to run ourselves or did we want to increasingly be governed by an unelected elite in Brussels?
Over the past few hundred years blood has been spilt when people have revolted over this apparently trivial issue, and sometimes the "oppressors" have been less oppressive than The EU has been to its client states (a little spat in and around 1776 comes to mind here), this hasn't stopped future generations from stating how proud they are to have gained their independence all those years ago, or heartily singing anthems to that effect.
The "remain" camp, of course, tried to gloss over all of this and attempted to present the referendum as a test with the question being "if these are the facts will you be be better off if The UK leaves or remains in The EU?" Anyone who came up with the "wrong" answer would find themselves being reviled as being insular/backward etc. etc. "The Facts" of course, were wildly exaggerated.
Furthermore, although The EU likes to portray itself as a centre of culture and prosperity their continuing drive to further integration (in particular the imposition of The Euro currency over half of the continent) is causing immense economic hardship for those outside of the core areas located in and around Germany, as can be seen by their own website's page on unemployment rates throughout the different regions of Europe ....
Back in the early 1980s British Pop/Reggae act UB40 famously had a hit song called "The One In Ten" that protested about the high rates of unemployment that were endemic in The UK at that time, a modern day UB40 from countries that use The Euro such as France, Finland or Italy could similarly record the same song today, if they were in Spain or Greece they could sing about "The One In Four" or even "The One In Three". And yet, although we didn't help to create this mess we are expected to help pay for it as "Good Europeans".
And, in spite of the fact that we do elect members to a "European Parliament" this organisation doesn't propose any legislation, it is little more than a forum for rubber-stamping proposals made by an organisation called "The European Commission" (effectively "The European Parliament" has a purpose very similar to The House of Lords in the UK Parliament in London). The European Commission itself is not elected, it is appointed by a President who himself is appointed behind doors by the leaders of the National Governments, as is eloquently explained by The EUs own website ...
Not exactly government of the people, for the people and by the people is it??!!
Anyway, in spite of all the whining from those who think we got the question "wrong" it does look at the moment that Brexit will occur, however The EU has a long and shameful history of ignoring similar votes concerning "ever closer union" over the last two decades in countries such as Ireland, France and The Netherlands so I would suggest you all still hold your breath for the next two months.
Anyway, I'm about to invoke my own Article 50 as shortly I shall be heading out to The Pub to watch the England football team play against The Mighty Iceland (that is the Non-EU island nation in the North Atlantic and not The Supermarket)
Sorry to say the EU was initially set up largely as a mechanism to redistribute wealth and to redistribute people. Countries like Germany needed cheap labor as it's population aged and took advantage of cheaper labor by literally importing people who then spread to other countries, bringing wages down for the established working class and worse yet...setting up multi-cultural enclaves instead of integrating and assimilating into those societies creating many of the problems we face today...IKEA is literally running out of mattresses in Sweden to provide them for the growing number of migrants there to take advantage of the generous social programs which will eventually bring down THAT economy...Productive countries like Germany and the UK were then placed in the position of bailing out non-productive countries like Greece and soon Spain...While the EU has taken it upon itself to dictate to it's members how to govern their economy's, politics, and judiciaries...it has no significant military component to enforce it's domain when call for...The genocide in the Balkans is a prime example of that...While millions of people were being displaced, threatened and killed right under the nose of the EU...the EU sat on it's hands...It took NATO to come in and bring peace to that region...The UK, without the EU will still be a formidable economic force on the European and World stage as uncertain markets will settle and rise again, and they are definitely not leaving NATO...the one organization they actually need to belong to...If regaining their sovereignty means a little longer wait when they travel through Europe...so be it...It's just not in the British psyche to conform and march to the beat that others require of it...
Last edited by StuBass1; 06-27-2016 at 04:56 PM.
Don't agree there with your analysis of why The EU (originally The European Economic Community) was first set up StuBass. Its roots were in an agreement in the early/mid 1950s to set up a trading area for Iron/Steel/Coal with the very noble ideal that this would prevent squabbling which might lead to another war. Also I don't agree that places such as Greece and Spain are "un-productive" .. it is just that they are "different" to places such as Germany as they have huge cultural differences and because of the imposition of The Euro Currency they have become un-competitive. In the good old days they would have been able to de-value their currencies (thus making themselves competitive again) and they would have remained happy and fully employed, although they would not have been so materially prosperous as Germany etc. As they now use The Euro they cannot do this.
As to the whole "immigration" thing ... as Europe recovered from WW2 there were shortages of labour, so the more prosperous countries started to recruit workers from abroad .. in The UK it was from Commonwealth countries such as India, Pakistan and Jamaica, in Holland it was from former Dutch Colonies such as Indonesia .. in Germany it was mainly from Turkey.
Unfortunately The EU is trying to make everyone in Europe "the same" by imposing common standards and regulations .. thus ignoring hundreds of years of cultural differences. Basically it doesn't work.
Totally agree with you about NATO .. although the "Eurofanatics" would have us believe that it is only the European Union "Project" that has kept the peace. Really you would need to live here to hear the nonsense that is spoken about this.
Anyway ... about to cook supper
The Common Market was the term I first remember.
Why immigration was way oversold as the reason for the brexit from the EU...Just one of many reasons...If you really want to know WHY the UK left the EU...the 14 minute video at the end of this article will answer all your questions...
Last edited by StuBass1; 06-27-2016 at 07:42 PM.
Anytime a country like Greece where people complain if they have to work more than 30 hours per week and expect 2 month holidays...then go hat in hand to countries like Germany and the UK (where work ethics demand hard work and sacrifice for economic success) for bailouts because their economy is uncompetitive with the rest of the world is more than a small cultural difference...it's an inevitable economic catastrophe waiting to happen...
I understand about sovereignty. We Americans fought you over it centuries ago, and it was probably pretty rough.
A lot of the message we are getting here about the motivation for Brexit is about your issues with immigration, largely from Mediterranean, East Asian, and Middle Eastern countries, amid worries of terrorist attacks. From what I have been reading, this has been largely blamed for the depressed economic issues. Is the rise of racial attacks on the rise a result of embolden racists who latched onto the Leaves?
Last edited by soulster; 06-27-2016 at 08:16 PM.
Somebody posted this on FaceBook. England may as well be the US or Germany when things like this occur
June 20 at 4:10am ·
The most perfect thing I have ever seen just happened on the replacement train bus service between Newport and Cwmbran:
White man sat in front of a mother and her son. Mother was wearing a niqab. After about 5 minutes of the mother talking to her son in another language the man, for whatever reason, feels the need to tell the woman "When you're in the UK you should really be speaking English."
At which point, an old woman in front of him turns around and says, "She's in Wales. And she's speaking Welsh."
There are some very skewed misunderstandings of the issues affecting the UK at this time. I am not interested in knowing where they are coming from but I can see who is believing them.
Exactly! Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and The isle of Man
will all ask for referenda, and ALL vote for independence, and all summarily join The EU. UK never wanted to join, proving it, by never joining The Euro. They let Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium and France pay to incorporate the poorer countries into the money system. Sweden and Denmark did the same. How can you have an effective economic union with multiple money systems?
I work for Disney in The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Germany. I live and work in The Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. I get paid in Euros in The Netherlands and Germany, and arranged it so that The Danes and Swedes also pay me in Euros, because that is more convenient. But, then I must change money when living in Denmark and working there and in Sweden. I always lose money on those exchanges. We should have one single money system. I also travel in Norway and UK, and resent having to change money in those places.
The whole point of The EU was to make a large enough economic block to compete with USA, and avoid all the tariffs and high prices, and to allow people to move more freely, and have better work opportunities. Now, I'm afraid that The Scandinavian countries may follow England's lead, fearing that their countries will be swamped with refugees sneaking in from nearby EU countries.
You may be proved correct with Scotland, but in Northern Ireland the voting seemed to reflect the old Catholic/Nationalist versus Protestant/Unionist divide, with heavily Protestant areas voting "Leave" and heavily Catholic areas voting "Remain" ... I don't have exact figures but it looks to me like Catholics/Nationalists voted around 80/20 for "Remain" and Protestants/Unionists voted around 60/40 for "Leave".
Wales voted to Leave by about the same figure as The U.K. as a whole. The Isle of Man is not part of The UK and neither is it in The EU, exactly the same is the case for The Channel Islands (Jersey and Guernsey), which you omitted to mention.
Your enthusiasm for a single currency throughout The EU is something that I've not heard in The UK since 2009 (though I've not had a serious conversation with any Liberal-Democrats about the issue recently). It may all sound very noble and good-intentioned but the simple truth is that in order for it to work the currency has to be used in places with broadly similar economies and cultures, within The Eurozone this is simply not the case which has led to immense strains on The Euro. Basically Greece, Spain and Portugal are in dire-straits, Italy, France, Ireland and Cyprus are struggling and even Finland is having problems.
Also, currently The UK pays much more into The EU than it gets back, so I don't understand why you think that we have not been paying to "incorporate the poorer countries into the money system". Needless to say if/when we leave the other countries that pay more into The EU than they receive back (notably Germany and The Netherlands) will have to pick up the bill unless they too leave.