What If - alternative Supreme musical direction post-Touch

[sup_fan]

What do you think/recommend the Sups should have done post Touch?

the back half of 71 was spent recording with a variety of producers. at the time, they could have released an lp with a bunch of different stuff [[bad idea IMO) but they ended up picked the Smokey composition of Floy Joy and released it as a single in Dec 71. i'm going to guess that if it had NOT done well, the subsequent Smokey sessions in Jan and Feb 72 would not have happened.

Some people aren't huge fans of the FJ lp and set.

So what would YOU have released in Dec 71 and, assuming it was a success, the girls could have done more sessions with that producer and created a different LP

Here's what they did and with whom:

Frank Wilson
*Tears Left over
*Chained to yesterday [[also produced with Deke Richards and R Dean Taylor)

Gloria Jones & Pam Sawyer
*Oh My Poor Baby
*I'll Let Him Know I Love Him

Clay McMurray
*Never Can Say Goodbye
*Walk With Me, Talk with Me
*take a look inside
*I ain't that easy to lose

Henry Cosby
*Make It With You
*I Ain't Got the Love of the one i love
*take your dream back
*If i were your woman

Bobby Taylor
*Eleanor Rigby
*Still Water
* i thought you loved me
*it's too late

Ashford & Simpson
*can't get you out of my mind

R Dean Taylor & Mike Valvano
*I don't want to own you

I'm missing the Producer[[s) for All I Need

There are other JMC unreleased tracks from earlier but i'm guessing that might NOT have gone back and pulled tracks like Life Beats or The Day Will Come Between sunday and Monday. but they could have

thoughts?

[marv2]

I loved the Floy Joy Album and the initial single. I believe they did the right thing by going back to the tried and true Motown Sound with "Floy Joy'. I enjoyed the entire album:

Side One:

"Your Wonderful, Sweet Sweet Love" [[Smokey Robinson)
"Floy Joy" [[Robinson)
"A Heart Like Mine" [[Robinson, Ronald White)
"Over and Over" [[Robinson)
"Precious Little Things" [[Robinson, Marvin Tarplin, Pam Moffett)

Side two

"Now the Bitter, Now the Sweet" [[Robinson, Cecil Franklin)
"Automatically Sunshine" [[Robinson)
"The Wisdom of Time" [[Robinson, Moffett, Clifford Burston)
"Oh Be My Love" [[Robinson, Warren Moore)

[marybrewster]

In a game of "what-if's", I wonder if HDH had stayed with Motown, if the Jean-lead Supremes would have gotten gems like "Band of Gold" or "Want Ads"?

[marybrewster]

To answer your question though, the 70's Supremes should have stuck with Frank Wilson. Much like HDH was a match for Diana, Frank was a match for Jean. Once Frank left, that's when the hits stopped. Much like when HDH left.

I think what really hurt the Supremes were their image. This was the 70's and those wigs and sequined gowns and feather boas were dated. Look at what other girl groups were doing at the time.

What's interesting is that Ruth Pointer isn't much younger than Mary; her group was on fire in the 70's and well into the 80's. Wouldn't it have been something if The Supremes WOULD have left Motown and hooked up with Richard Perry at Planet or RCA? Maybe Trevor Lawrence would have written "I'm So Excited" for Lynda?

[marv2]

In a game of "what-if's", I wonder if HDH had stayed with Motown, if the Jean-lead Supremes would have gotten gems like "Band of Gold" or "Want Ads"?

I bet you they would have.

[marv2]

In a game of "what-if's", I wonder if HDH had stayed with Motown, if the Jean-lead Supremes would have gotten gems like "Band of Gold" or "Want Ads"?

Eddie Holland even said that he was looking for singer and a song that would give Invictus the "Supremes Sound" and he found it in Freda Payne with "Band of Gold".

[marv2]

To answer your question though, the 70's Supremes should have stuck with Frank Wilson. Much like HDH was a match for Diana, Frank was a match for Jean. Once Frank left, that's when the hits stopped. Much like when HDH left.

I think what really hurt the Supremes were their image. This was the 70's and those wigs and sequined gowns and feather boas were dated. Look at what other girl groups were doing at the time.

What's interesting is that Ruth Pointer isn't much younger than Mary; her group was on fire in the 70's and well into the 80's. Wouldn't it have been something if The Supremes WOULD have left Motown and hooked up with Richard Perry at Planet or RCA? Maybe Trevor Lawrence would have written "I'm So Excited" for Lynda?

The Three Degrees performing their only number two hit "When Will I See You Again". [[note: the sequins & wigs.........)

[marv2]

To answer your question though, the 70's Supremes should have stuck with Frank Wilson. Much like HDH was a match for Diana, Frank was a match for Jean. Once Frank left, that's when the hits stopped. Much like when HDH left.

I think what really hurt the Supremes were their image. This was the 70's and those wigs and sequined gowns and feather boas were dated. Look at what other girl groups were doing at the time.

What's interesting is that Ruth Pointer isn't much younger than Mary; her group was on fire in the 70's and well into the 80's. Wouldn't it have been something if The Supremes WOULD have left Motown and hooked up with Richard Perry at Planet or RCA? Maybe Trevor Lawrence would have written "I'm So Excited" for Lynda?

The Pointer Sisters were indeed on fire in the 70s, yet Mary and the Supremes were the most successful girl group of the 70s in terms of Top 40 hits with 8 total.

[marv2]

I think what happens with the Supremes and when people look back on their career, they forget just how powerful and successful of an act they actually were in the 70s. Their career span was longer than many groups so people tend to focus on the period of 1964-69 as the years they produced hits. Not true. The Pointer Sisters had 1 number one record in the 70s and it was on the R&B Charts "How Long [[Betcha' Got a Chick on the Side)"

[sup_fan]

Marv - you're spot on. the 70s Supremes had an excellent track by any standard except they're always, unfairly, compared to the Diana era. frankly the DMC were, in some regards, far less successful than the DMF group. JMC really excelled artistically and also had excellent chart showings too.

i think the loss of Frank was a major problem but IMO it was more than just that. their image was getting stale. they entered 1970 with a new member, a new sound and an image. but by late 71 and early 72, they needed to evolve. and they didn't. losing Cindy was a major blow. and no slight to Lynda. but they were sort of teetering on the edge of will they or will they not make it. i think cindy's departure seriously interrupted their ability to promote live and on tv their latest material and then they really started to drift.

while i do like Floy Joy and find it, artistically, interesting. i don't know that it was really right for the moment. i think something more R&B would have been a better decision. even if it didn't give them a Pop #1, something #1 R&b would have been ok

[marv2]

Marv - you're spot on. the 70s Supremes had an excellent track by any standard except they're always, unfairly, compared to the Diana era. frankly the DMC were, in some regards, far less successful than the DMF group. JMC really excelled artistically and also had excellent chart showings too.

i think the loss of Frank was a major problem but IMO it was more than just that. their image was getting stale. they entered 1970 with a new member, a new sound and an image. but by late 71 and early 72, they needed to evolve. and they didn't. losing Cindy was a major blow. and no slight to Lynda. but they were sort of teetering on the edge of will they or will they not make it. i think cindy's departure seriously interrupted their ability to promote live and on tv their latest material and then they really started to drift.

while i do like Floy Joy and find it, artistically, interesting. i don't know that it was really right for the moment. i think something more R&B would have been a better decision. even if it didn't give them a Pop #1, something #1 R&b would have been ok

Thank you. In my opinion it was the Produced by Jimmy Webb Album is what hurt them[[the sound was too rapid of a departure for what the Supremes had become known for....). Although I liked most of the songs on that album, it took me a while to do so. That album, followed by little to no promotion by Motown for the single "Bad Weather" is what hurt the Supremes most during that period.

I have pretty good ears and "Bad Weather" was a good record. "He's My Man" was a great record. The Supremes received top notched promotion from Motown in the 60s, not so much in the 70s. I know people like to argue that fact [[and I know why), but their arguments are not legit because even the ladies agree they suffered from a lack of promotion and support.

[marv2]

Marv - you're spot on. the 70s Supremes had an excellent track by any standard except they're always, unfairly, compared to the Diana era. frankly the DMC were, in some regards, far less successful than the DMF group. JMC really excelled artistically and also had excellent chart showings too.

i think the loss of Frank was a major problem but IMO it was more than just that. their image was getting stale. they entered 1970 with a new member, a new sound and an image. but by late 71 and early 72, they needed to evolve. and they didn't. losing Cindy was a major blow. and no slight to Lynda. but they were sort of teetering on the edge of will they or will they not make it. i think cindy's departure seriously interrupted their ability to promote live and on tv their latest material and then they really started to drift.

while i do like Floy Joy and find it, artistically, interesting. i don't know that it was really right for the moment. i think something more R&B would have been a better decision. even if it didn't give them a Pop #1, something #1 R&b would have been ok

"Floy Joy" was very popular at least in my part of the country at that time [[Michigan & Ohio) mainly because it followed the old HDH formula. Smokey would admit that he was trying to take them back to that simplistic groove of "Where Our Love Go?", "Baby Love" etc. Funny you say that about something more R&B. "Floy Joy" did far better on the R&B Charts than it did on the Hot 100. It reached number 16 on the Hot 100 and number 5 on the Billboard R&B Charts. I just remember that it was very popular with the kids at my Jr. High. LOL!

[mysterysinger]

Just love those Three Degrees with Sheila, Valerie and Fayette. Their first Philadelphia Int. Album was sublime. The Supremes, at that time were no competition but that's only my opinion.

[sup_fan]

i like FJ myself. i think the songs really click and the sparseness of the production is part of the magic. i loved the Frank work too but compare the production and track to Stone Love and Wisdom of time. Stoned is a huge production with an entire symphony. Perhaps some of the Frank work was even board line overproduced.

[marv2]

Just love those Three Degrees with Sheila, Valerie and Fayette. Their first Philadelphia Int. Album was sublime. The Supremes, at that time were no competition but that's only my opinion.

That's because the Supremes had no recordings released in 1974, clearing the way for a group like the Three Degrees to get a hit. Ironically their big hit "When Will I See You Again" sounded somewhat like Jean Terrell/Supremes to me. How could the Supremes compete when Mary was regrouping and Motown was not recording them?

[Bluebrock]

The JMC line up was my favourite of all the Supremes line ups. I adored the first 3 albums but I found FJ to be a very average album. Despite this it was a big success here in the UK. I am not at all convinced Cindy's departure had anything to do with the group losing their mojo. Few people aside from long term fans would have noticed Lynda's arrival. For me the material just wasn't good enough. Things got even worse with the Jimmy Webb album. I know this album has it's admirers but I couldn't and still cannot appreciate it's merits. It was such a bad move to produce such an uncommercial album when they were so desperate for a hit. Of course it is true to say that Motown had lost interest in them, and I have heard it said that the internal feuding within the group had something to do with this. Another argument going around was that the group had quite simply ran it's course but I do not agree with this. I have spoken to insiders around at the time and there are toxic stories that I feel unable to share here. Therefore I put it down to a combination of poor material, poor promotion and poor relations between the girls at this time that would not recover until the arrival of Scherrie. It was criminal the way this group were allowed to die an undignified death. Even later material such as the magnificent "high energy" could not save them. It is till vastly annoying all these years later.

[bradsupremes]

I've said this before, but the Jimmy Webb album should have been so much more. Webb is my favorite songwriter and he has done some phenomenal albums. Thelma Houston's Sunshower, Richard Harris' A Tramp Shining and The Yard Went On Forever, the Fifth Dimension's Magic Garden and Earthbound albums are among some of the best albums I've ever heard. The songwriting, the production, the arrangements, etc are all incredible on those albums. I honestly don't know what happened with the Supremes album. It's, in my opinion, their worst album. The song selections were poor with the exception of "When Can Brown Begin" and "I Keep It Hid." The rock-geared arrangements didn't fit the group's sound at all and it's not something they would have succeeded in. Keys were too high for Jean where in some spots it made her sound shrill and the additions of the Blossoms made them lose their sound. I think a Supremes/Jimmy Webb album could have worked had it been done in the late 60's and arranged in a similar style to the Thelma Houston/Fifth Dimension albums.

I'm not sure what direction the Supremes needed to go in 1972 for them to be consistently on the top of the charts. Certainly the loss of Frank Wilson had a deep impact on the group's demise. Changing times had a lot to do with it. I don't think the wigs and gowns were considered out-of-date. What they needed was a refreshed look. The 60's gowns needed to be retired. A more earthier look or possibly a more sexier style would have been better. A lack of push from Motown certainly hurt them. Yes, Motown put out ads in Billboard, but it's what goes on behind-the-scenes that matters. The ladies got a boost with addition of Scherrie, the return of Cindy and the Holland Brothers, and then Susaye. With Pedro as manager, I think prevented Motown from fully giving the ladies the boost to soar on the charts again. "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" should have gone to number one. It is a number one record. It boggles my mind why it didn't go higher. Motown ultimately prevented it from going higher when it told DJs to stop playing it and to play Diana's "Love Hangover" or "One Love In My Lifetime" instead [[can't remember which single it was).

In the end, all groups will eventually lose their charting power. Doesn't mean the quality of the material is lacking or the talent wasn't there. The Supremes never lost any of those. Ultimately, times and tastes change. It doesn't diminish their impact. They were the American biggest vocal group of the 60's and most successful girl group of both the 60's and 70's. That's quite an accomplishment.

[Bluebrock]

I've said this before, but the Jimmy Webb album should have been so much more. Webb is my favorite songwriter and he has done some phenomenal albums. Thelma Houston's Sunshower, Richard Harris' A Tramp Shining and The Yard Went On Forever, the Fifth Dimension's Magic Garden and Earthbound albums are among some of the best albums I've ever heard. The songwriting, the production, the arrangements, etc are all incredible on those albums. I honestly don't know what happened with the Supremes album. It's, in my opinion, their worst album. The song selections were poor with the exception of "When Can Brown Begin" and "I Keep It Hid." The rock-geared arrangements didn't fit the group's sound at all and it's not something they would have succeeded in. Keys were too high for Jean where in some spots it made her sound shrill and the additions of the Blossoms made them lose their sound. I think a Supremes/Jimmy Webb album could have worked had it been done in the late 60's and arranged in a similar style to the Thelma Houston/Fifth Dimension albums.

I'm not sure what direction the Supremes needed to go in 1972 for them to be consistently on the top of the charts. Certainly the loss of Frank Wilson had a deep impact on the group's demise. Changing times had a lot to do with it. I don't think the wigs and gowns were considered out-of-date. What they needed was a refreshed look. The 60's gowns needed to be retired. A more earthier look or possibly a more sexier style would have been better. A lack of push from Motown certainly hurt them. Yes, Motown put out ads in Billboard, but it's what goes on behind-the-scenes that matters. The ladies got a boost with addition of Scherrie, the return of Cindy and the Holland Brothers, and then Susaye. With Pedro as manager, I think prevented Motown from fully giving the ladies the boost to soar on the charts again. "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" should have gone to number one. It is a number one record. It boggles my mind why it didn't go higher. Motown ultimately prevented it from going higher when it told DJs to stop playing it and to play Diana's "Love Hangover" or "One Love In My Lifetime" instead [[can't remember which single it was).

In the end, all groups will eventually lose their charting power. Doesn't mean the quality of the material is lacking or the talent wasn't there. The Supremes never lost any of those. Ultimately, times and tastes change. It doesn't diminish their impact. They were the American biggest vocal group of the 60's and most successful girl group of both the 60's and 70's. That's quite an accomplishment.

I agree with much of what you say. Jimmy Webb is a very talented songwriter and producer but the Supremes album must be the worst album he was ever involved in. I agree it could and should have been great. Even the cover was dull and bland. A lost opportunity for sure.

[blueskies]

I agree with much of what you say. Jimmy Webb is a very talented songwriter and producer but the Supremes album must be the worst album he was ever involved in. I agree it could and should have been great. Even the cover was dull and bland. A lost opportunity for sure.

I still shake my head when I see the album cover. Here you have 3 beautiful women and they stick a damn, half dead weed on the cover! Maybe I'm missing some 'symbolism' here or something??

[Bluebrock]

Exactly!! What in the world was going on at Motown? Who in heavens name chose that album cover? It defies belief.

[marv2]

I still shake my head when I see the album cover. Here you have 3 beautiful women and they stick a damn, half dead weed on the cover! Maybe I'm missing some 'symbolism' here or something??

Not to mention the pictures on the back were blurry.......

[RossHolloway]

I think by 1971, with the exception of DR, MG and SW, the Motown label was somewhat rudderless and the company became like many other labels. What I've always found odd, and I rarely see mentioned when talking about the 70's Supremes is why were they recording duet albums with the Four Tops? Especially odd when you consider the Supreme's had just done four albums with the Temptations in 68-69. Why turn back around the next two years and do the same thing? There did not seem to be a lot of "thought" behind these three albums with the Tops, and there did not seem to be much marketing behind the efforts as well. I don't see where they toured together or heck even performed on tv together. What exactly was the point of it all? I also tend to think that having so many albums and singles out in such a short span of time did their sales no favors as well - just like in 68 and 69. Can someone explain Motown's strategy behind these duet albums and their timing?

[Bluebrock]

I think by 1971, with the exception of DR, MG and SW, the Motown label was somewhat rudderless and the company became like many other labels. What I've always found odd, and I rarely see mentioned when talking about the 70's Supremes is why were they recording duet albums with the Four Tops? Especially odd when you consider the Supreme's had just done four albums with the Temptations in 68-69. Why turn back around the next two years and do the same thing? There did not seem to be a lot of "thought" behind these three albums with the Tops, and there did not seem to be much marketing behind the efforts as well. I don't see where they toured together or heck even performed on tv together. What exactly was the point of it all? I also tend to think that having so many albums and singles out in such a short span of time did their sales no favors as well - just like in 68 and 69. Can someone explain Motown's strategy behind these duet albums and their timing?

I agree that too much product emerged in too short a time. The 3 albums with the Four Tops were hardly top drawer. Yes i bought them all but there were no real classics on there. They did perform "you got to have love in your heart" on Top Of The Pops footage of which is available on you tube and they did all share the same stage at a gig in London, but i think they should have toured together. Motown lost interest in the projects and did not even bother to issue a single from the final album so how on earth was that going to be successful?

[Motown Eddie]

I think by 1971, with the exception of DR, MG and SW, the Motown label was somewhat rudderless and the company became like many other labels. What I've always found odd, and I rarely see mentioned when talking about the 70's Supremes is why were they recording duet albums with the Four Tops? Especially odd when you consider the Supreme's had just done four albums with the Temptations in 68-69. Why turn back around the next two years and do the same thing? There did not seem to be a lot of "thought" behind these three albums with the Tops, and there did not seem to be much marketing behind the efforts as well. I don't see where they toured together or heck even performed on tv together. What exactly was the point of it all? I also tend to think that having so many albums and singles out in such a short span of time did their sales no favors as well - just like in 68 and 69. Can someone explain Motown's strategy behind these duet albums and their timing?

Perhaps the reason behind the three albums that paired The Supremes with The Four Tops is that the 'Sups & Tops' did have a major hit with "River Deep, Mountain High" and was hoping that lighting would strike again. One thing that Berry Gordy did concede to in his biography, "To Be Loved", is that when Motown moved to LA and got into making movies & TV specials, he was losing touch with the day-to-day workings of Motown's recording division.

[marv2]

I think by 1971, with the exception of DR, MG and SW, the Motown label was somewhat rudderless and the company became like many other labels. What I've always found odd, and I rarely see mentioned when talking about the 70's Supremes is why were they recording duet albums with the Four Tops? Especially odd when you consider the Supreme's had just done four albums with the Temptations in 68-69. Why turn back around the next two years and do the same thing? There did not seem to be a lot of "thought" behind these three albums with the Tops, and there did not seem to be much marketing behind the efforts as well. I don't see where they toured together or heck even performed on tv together. What exactly was the point of it all? I also tend to think that having so many albums and singles out in such a short span of time did their sales no favors as well - just like in 68 and 69. Can someone explain Motown's strategy behind these duet albums and their timing?

I enjoyed the albums the Supremes and Four Tops made together immensely! My two favorite groups with my two favorite lead singers together. I enjoyed these albums more than the ones the Supremes did with the Temptations:

[thommg]

I agree that too much product emerged in too short a time. The 3 albums with the Four Tops were hardly top drawer. Yes i bought them all but there were no real classics on there. They did perform "you got to have love in your heart" on Top Of The Pops footage of which is available on you tube and they did all share the same stage at a gig in London, but i think they should have toured together. Motown lost interest in the projects and did not even bother to issue a single from the final album so how on earth was that going to be successful?

They did do some dates together. I saw them [[my first Supremes show) together at the Carter baron Amphitheatre in Washington D.C. And I agree that I enjoyed the album with the Four Tops more than the albums with The Temptations. I still play the S&4T albums, not so much the DR&TS & TT. [[Now there's some lettering for ya!)
.

[sup_fan]

Motown was clearly falling short in the album art department. Last Time I Saw Him, Dynamite, Jimmy Webb. I remember reading years ago on here that the image of MJL in black turtle necks and afros was considered for the cover. would have been done in a sepia tone. Frankly I think that's a ghastly pic of the girls and hardly better than the weed!

[RossHolloway]

They did do some dates together. I saw them [[my first Supremes show) together at the Carter baron Amphitheatre in Washington D.C. And I agree that I enjoyed the album with the Four Tops more than the albums with The Temptations. I still play the S&4T albums, not so much the DR&TS & TT. [[Now there's some lettering for ya!)
.

Do you happen to remember what songs the two groups performed together? And do you remember what year you saw them together?

[marv2]

Motown was clearly falling short in the album art department. Last Time I Saw Him, Dynamite, Jimmy Webb. I remember reading years ago on here that the image of MJL in black turtle necks and afros was considered for the cover. would have been done in a sepia tone. Frankly I think that's a ghastly pic of the girls and hardly better than the weed!

That picture you are describing was a poor imitation of that classic afro pic of Jean, Mary and Cindy taken in 1970. Right after that picture appeared it seemed like everyone was trying to copy that picture.

Attachment 11374 Attachment 11375

[blueskies]

This album always comes to mind when I see the Jean, Mary and Cindy one.

[marv2]

This album always comes to mind when I see the Jean, Mary and Cindy one.

You are exactly right, same here. But there were others trying to copy that photo of Jean, Mary and Cindy

[marv2]

Here are a few more......
Gladys Knight & the Pips
Attachment 11377

The Chiffons

Attachment 11378

LaBelle

Attachment 11379

the Three Degrees

Attachment 11380

[marv2]

The Shirelles were clearly influenced by that pic here LOL!

[marybrewster]

Within a two year span, the Supremes had three different lineups. If there's not consistency in the group, how can you expect consistency with producers, and recording?

I've always thought it was so telling when the Supremes appeared on Flip Wilson; there's a skit that Mary says something along the lines of "We're looking for a Number One record". What a plea, on national television.

There's a picture I've seen from this session, where Jean, Mary, and Lynda are with their "manager". Does anyone recall his name, or know how long he was with the group?

[blueskies]

Here are a few more......
Gladys Knight & the Pips
Attachment 11377

The Chiffons

Attachment 11378

LaBelle

Attachment 11379

the Three Degrees

Attachment 11380

Wow....I never saw that pic of the Chiffons. Quite different. Thanks for posting.

[sansradio]

Within a two year span, the Supremes had three different lineups. If there's not consistency in the group, how can you expect consistency with producers, and recording?

I've always thought it was so telling when the Supremes appeared on Flip Wilson; there's a skit that Mary says something along the lines of "We're looking for a Number One record". What a plea, on national television.

There's a picture I've seen from this session, where Jean, Mary, and Lynda are with their "manager". Does anyone recall his name, or know how long he was with the group?

I believe his name was Wayne Weisbart, if memory serves, Mary.

[reese]

I believe his name was Wayne Weisbart, if memory serves, Mary.

From reading Mary's book, it doesn't seem as if Wayne stayed their manager that long. She mentioned that it was his idea for them to work with Jimmy Webb. But by June of 1972, they were back to being managed by Shelly Berger.

[blueskies]

Wayne Weisbart - Died 5-17-2006 in Palm Springs, CA, U.S. [[ Music Exec ) He was 67 years old - Worked at Motown - Managed The Supremes and Marvin Gaye and promoted The Commodores.

[marv2]

Within a two year span, the Supremes had three different lineups. If there's not consistency in the group, how can you expect consistency with producers, and recording?

I've always thought it was so telling when the Supremes appeared on Flip Wilson; there's a skit that Mary says something along the lines of "We're looking for a Number One record". What a plea, on national television.

There's a picture I've seen from this session, where Jean, Mary, and Lynda are with their "manager". Does anyone recall his name, or know how long he was with the group?

That was Wayne Wiesbart, their manager at the time.

[marv2]

From reading Mary's book, it doesn't seem as if Wayne stayed their manager that long. She mentioned that it was his idea for them to work with Jimmy Webb. But by June of 1972, they were back to being managed by Shelly Berger.

Reese and Sansradio, that's right. I posted before seeing yours. Sorry. Wayne was their manager when "the troubles" started with Lynda.

[marv2]

Wow....I never saw that pic of the Chiffons. Quite different. Thanks for posting.

You're welcome. There are more pics of different groups using a similar style of black and white, turtlenecks, etc to approximate that classic Supremes photo. I've seen them but cannot locate them at the moment.

[daviddh]

A couple of thoughts. First the Supremes should have stayed with Frank Wilson. I still don't get why he was pulled away from them.even though he did return to produce them in 2973....Love Train and a few others still in the caults. I think one othersong was Remote Control. Also Motown moved to LA and lost alot of ground and people.not everyone wanted to move to Detroit. Berry lost focus.even Diana Ross was having trouble in1971.

[daviddh]

Sorry I meant
1973

[marv2]

A couple of thoughts. First the Supremes should have stayed with Frank Wilson. I still don't get why he was pulled away from them.even though he did return to produce them in 2973....Love Train and a few others still in the caults. I think one othersong was Remote Control. Also Motown moved to LA and lost alot of ground and people.not everyone wanted to move to Detroit. Berry lost focus.even Diana Ross was having trouble in1971.

Frank Wilson went on to produce some huge hits for Eddie Kendricks after leaving the Supremes.

[Bluebrock]

Perhaps the reason behind the three albums that paired The Supremes with The Four Tops is that the 'Sups & Tops' did have a major hit with "River Deep, Mountain High" and was hoping that lighting would strike again. One thing that Berry Gordy did concede to in his biography, "To Be Loved", is that when Motown moved to LA and got into making movies & TV specials, he was losing touch with the day-to-day workings of Motown's recording division.

If that was the case then why did Motown not even bother to release any singles from "dynamite"?

[daviddh]

I don't think Motown cared. It was all about movies. Everyone started jumping ship one by one. I think that the Supremes had an offer from Dunlap records but at last minute MW backed out. So Jean and Lynda left her behind. They knew it was over.

[daviddh]

The four tops went to Dunlap. I think it would have been a good change for them. .if the Supremes went. Motown didn't care anymore.

[reese]

The four tops went to Dunlap. I think it would have been a good change for them. .if the Supremes went. Motown didn't care anymore.

Mary said the group had interest from ABC-Dunhill, but at the time, Motown owned the name "The Supremes". So, in order to leave, they would have had to negotiate to get ownership of the name, or come up with a new one. I can understand her not wanting to take a new one, and it might have been hard to get ownership in a timely fashion.

[daviddh]

But..MW would also sue Motown but settle.if she had left.perhaps she would have had better council. Maybe not.but it was over at Motown. BG offered to manage the Supremes but MW turned him down twice do he gave up on them. Also.if you want to be a pop singer then you have to sing pop songs.none of the dongs after 1973 were pop.only IGLMHDTW came close.good return to form for them