Were the Marvelettes & the Contours Replaced by the Supremes & the Temptations?

[marv2]

All of you Motown fans that pretty much know the story and what went down at Motown. Here's a question. From the early Motortown Revues of the early 60s we know that the Marvelettes and the Contours were very popular acts and were allowed to perform several numbers each during the shows. While the Supremes were allowed one Country flavored number and the Tempts were used as back-ups to Mary Wells. Some would characterized the Marvelettes and the Contours, although very talented, as being a little rough around the edges. Within a few years company priority was given to the Supremes and the Temptations. Would you say they replaced the Marvelettes and the Contours respectively? Thoughts:

[theboyfromxtown]

This is only my opinion. I am happy for people to disagree but please, dont be rude.

I come from a finance viewpoint...so therefore my answer is...yes and the reason is because Mr Gordy did what he learnt from his previous experiences.....and that is to follow the money.

I'm sure that many of you have heard from many of the acts that in America [[but not the UK), their worth is only as good as their last hit record and when the hits stop, the ir value/worth drops. This is how Brenda Holloway and Kim Weston explain their continued adoration in the UK . In the UK, we dont work that way.

As it's only an opinion, can I go further.....I suspect the Miracles [[as a group) were replaced by the Contours who were then replaced by the Temptations........and the Marvelettes were replaced by Martha & the Vandellas.....and then the Supremes.

However......for just a short time, the Velvelettes were favour of the month in between the Vandellas and the Supremes...but sadly for me, not long enough.

[westgrandboulevard]

Interesting thread, Marv....

and I agree with you, Theboyfromxtown....

Motown was primarily in the business of selling records.

They were offering business product, in a rapidly changing market.

The Marvelettes and The Contours were unable or unwilling to adapt to changes in that market, and so 'new product' [[acts like The Supremes, The Temptations) which had more to offer, and to many more people of different ages [[different markets), did not necessarily replace The Marvelettes or The Contours, but surpassed them.

It's always regrettable when a business is involved with selling other people's talent and artistry, as there can only be a few who really make it to the top...and a lot of other people get hurt in the meantime.

[motony]

it was only after the Supremes popularity exploded after the summer of '64, that Maxine Powell & others were brought aboard to expand the appeal of the artists to the Supper Club crowd. The Marvelettes & the Contours were more rock/soul oriented. In the Contours case, I heard their lead singer was "difficult" to work with.

[marv2]

it was only after the Supremes popularity exploded after the summer of '64, that Maxine Powell & others were brought aboard to expand the appeal of the artists to the Supper Club crowd. The Marvelettes & the Contours were more rock/soul oriented. In the Contours case, I heard their lead singer was "difficult" to work with.

Motony, would you allow that the early successes of the Marvelettes and the Contours help to finance things like Artist Development?

[BigAl]

In Hitsville's infancy, acts like The Marvelettes and The Contours got a lot of attention precisely because they were hard-edged and got the people dancing. Sadly for both groups, their records at the time all sounded rather similar and I think people eventually tired of that. The Tempts and Supremes had not yet found their footings with Smokey and HDH, respectively, and thus weren't getting much attention, with good reason. At the same time, the company was maturing and broadening its scope in order to cross over. Once the aforementioned producers began guiding The Tempts and Supremes [[and let's not forget The Tops), The Marvelettes and Contours couldn't match that smoother, more sophisticated sound and image. Eventually, when Smokey moved Wanda into the lead spot and sweetened the backgrounds with more lush orchestration and Andante harmonies, the group made something of a resurgence on the charts but, sadly, their stage presence wasn't polished enough and their highly produced studio sound was impossible to recreate in live performance. By that time the Supremes has so far outdistanced all the other female acts at the label that The Marvelettes just got lost in the shuffle. The Contours were largely regarded as a one-hit act by the time The Tempts and Tops hit the big-time and they fell by the wayside pretty early on. As they say, that's showbiz, folks.

[JimBagley]

It is a shame that new music - especially what is played on the radio - caters only to the young in the United States. That was fine when the music was of a high quality. But most of what has been released in the past 20 years here has been pretty dismal.

[marv2]

It is a shame that new music - especially what is played on the radio - caters only to the young in the United States. That was fine when the music was of a high quality. But most of what has been released in the past 20 years here has been pretty dismal.

Oh it's been worse than that LOL!

[marv2]

In Hitsville's infancy, acts like The Marvelettes and The Contours got a lot of attention precisely because they were hard-edged and got the people dancing. Sadly for both groups, their records at the time all sounded rather similar and I think people eventually tired of that. The Tempts and Supremes had not yet found their footings with Smokey and HDH, respectively, and thus weren't getting much attention, with good reason. At the same time, the company was maturing and broadening its scope in order to cross over. Once the aforementioned producers began guiding The Tempts and Supremes [[and let's not forget The Tops), The Marvelettes and Contours couldn't match that smoother, more sophisticated sound and image. Eventually, when Smokey moved Wanda into the lead spot and sweetened the backgrounds with more lush orchestration and Andante harmonies, the group made something of a resurgence on the charts but, sadly, their stage presence wasn't polished enough and their highly produced studio sound was impossible to recreate in live performance. By that time the Supremes has so far outdistanced all the other female acts at the label that The Marvelettes just got lost in the shuffle. The Contours were largely regarded as a one-hit act by the time The Tempts and Tops hit the big-time and they fell by the wayside pretty early on. As they say, that's showbiz, folks.

So you're saying that Motown and the market was more into the smooth, sophisticated sound versus that rougher R&B sound?

[motony]

The Miracles, Mary Wells, The Marvelettes, and the Contours put Motown not only on the map musically but financially.Yes, their hard work funded the later Artist Development Department.

[marv2]

The Miracles, Mary Wells, The Marvelettes, and the Contours put Motown not only on the map musically but financially.Yes, their hard work funded the later Artist Development Department.

Those early hits allowed Motown to grow and expand. Ironically, by the late sixties Stax and "Soul Music" had become as popular as or more than the Motown Sound. The music was rawer, gritter and loose.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Stax artists never had the cross over appeal of the original Supremes, Tempts, Tops, Stevie, Marvin, Jackson 5 etc.. no diss to the Stax crew but how many #1 albums did they deliver on the mainstream Top 200 albums chart?).. they do not carry the decades spanning recognition across the boards at the level that Gordy's desired cross over achieved for the Motown class of 1963-1973..

[marv2]

Stax artists never had the cross over appeal of the original Supremes, Tempts, Tops, Stevie, Marvin, Jackson 5 etc.. no diss to the Stax crew but how many #1 albums did they deliver on the mainstream Top 200 albums chart?).. they do not carry the decades spanning recognition across the boards at the level that Gordy's desired cross over achieved for the Motown class of 1963-1973..

We could also put Atlantic in the mix here. What they were doing they did deliberately. They let the artists and writers be their authentic selves! They were not strategically planning to crossover. What Aretha, Wilson Pickett, Sam & Dave did was to have people crossover to them!

[marv2]

I could not imagine the Supremes [[even with Flo on the lead) doing "Locking Up My Heart" the way the Marvelettes did it at the Apollo.

[lockhartgary]

Oh what Jerry Wexler did with Aretha! Marv, you are spot on...Jerry let Aretha be Aretha. Columbia had no idea what to do with her; they seriously dropped the ball. Come to think of it, R&B/Soul was not their forte anyhow.

[marv2]

Oh what Jerry Wexler did with Aretha! Marv, you are spot on...Jerry let Aretha be Aretha. Columbia had no idea what to do with her; they seriously dropped the ball. Come to think of it, R&B/Soul was not their forte anyhow.

Thank you Lockhartgary. I can imagine if Motown had followed suit and let some of it's more soulful artists just go for it. Let Florence Ballard just SING! [[as one example).

[marv2]

Oh what Jerry Wexler did with Aretha! Marv, you are spot on...Jerry let Aretha be Aretha. Columbia had no idea what to do with her; they seriously dropped the ball. Come to think of it, R&B/Soul was not their forte anyhow.

Remember Berry Gordy turned down the great Aretha Franklin? Impossible! but true

[lockhartgary]

Remember Berry Gordy turned down the great Aretha Franklin? Impossible! but true

Yes, I read that awhile ago. Personally, I think Aretha did the right thing by signing with Atlantic. There is no way Berry would have given her the freedom Atlantic did.

[marv2]

Yes, I read that awhile ago. Personally, I think Aretha did the right thing by signing with Atlantic. There is no way Berry would have given her the freedom Atlantic did.

I know he would not have. She would have ended up singing jazzier versions of the material she given a Columbia!

[marv2]

For comparison purposes only:

[marv2]

and later you had :

[jboy88]

Remember Berry Gordy turned down the great Aretha Franklin? Impossible! but true

The story I read was that Berry Gordy wanted to sign Aretha and it was Rev. C.L. that vetoed the deal. At that time, the company was in its infancy and Mr. Franklin didn't think Motown would become the musical powerhouse it did.

[marv2]

The story I read was that Berry Gordy wanted to sign Aretha and it was Rev. C.L. that vetoed the deal. At that time, the company was in its infancy and Mr. Franklin didn't think Motown would become the musical powerhouse it did.

I heard a different version or can add to what you read. Berry and Smokey wanted to sign Erma Franklin. Smokey knew all of the Franklins being best friends with Cecil. He thought he could get hits with Erma's lighter voice. I remember Freda Payne's mom, Mrs. Farley refused to let Berry sign her for certain reasons.

[theboyfromxtown]

I heard a different version or can add to what you read. Berry and Smokey wanted to sign Erma Franklin. Smokey knew all of the Franklins being best friends with Cecil. He thought he could get hits with Erma's lighter voice. I remember Freda Payne's mom, Mrs. Farley refused to let Berry sign her for certain reasons.

Mr Gordy was sure nuff into those young beautiful women. I can well understand why Freda's mum was not keen! LOL!

BTW, Freda recorded her Motown tracks at United Studios and has told fans that she would like to see them released.

[BigAl]

Berry and Smokey wanted to sign Erma Franklin. Smokey... thought he could get hits with Erma's lighter voice.

I don't believe Erma would have fared well at Motown at all. Her voice, to me was not lighter than Aretha's, it was deeper and more mellow. Aretha was a soprano; Erma was a contralto. To me, her work at Shout with Bert Burns was her best, but she only charted two singles there: "Piece of My Heart" [[which,as we know, Janis covered and which became the definitive version) and "Open Up Your Soul." I suppose lack of promotion and being overshadowed by her younger sister might have held her back. Her subsequent move to Brunswick yielded rather forgettable tracks. Still her voice wasn't "Hitsville" by a long shot.

[marv2]

Again, for comparison purposes only:

[marv2]

and later you had:

[Jimi LaLumia]

Gordy wanted hits... BIG worldwide HITS! and he got em...

[Jimi LaLumia]

Aretha had 2 top ten singles in the UK..Otis Redding had one posthumous top ten UK single..

[Jimi LaLumia]

..and James Brown had ONE Top Ten UK single.... "Living In America"!!!..love it or hate it, Gordy knew what he was doing..The 70's Supremes had more UK Top Ten singles than Aretha, Otis and James Brown combined..

[marv2]

..and James Brown had ONE Top Ten UK single.... "Living In America"!!!..love it or hate it, Gordy knew what he was doing..The 70's Supremes had more UK Top Ten singles than Aretha, Otis and James Brown combined..

So Berry Gordy's quest for commercial hits proved highly successful. That is very important, but he had hits with the Marvelettes & Contours recordings too.

[Jimi LaLumia]

absolutely..they were the foundation, which I why I still do my yearly tirade in my Good Times column about the continued exclusion of The Marvelettes from the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame, despite the fact that they gave Motown it's first national Billboard #1 on the mainstream Hot 100 chart with "Postman', while Supremes and Vandellas have been in for more than a decade already

[marv2]

Here's an interesting article that somewhat questions the validity of the Supremes Induction....

http://www.npr.org/sections/therecor...l-hall-of-fame

[marv2]

Do you that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has a Youtube Channel? On it, they include video of just about every act that's been inducted induction except the Supremes?

[Jimi LaLumia]

that article, having just read it, would also question the validity of the induction of The Tempts, Vandellas, Tops, etc who ALSO didn't play instruments or write their own songs..it would apply to many of the vocal groups inducted into the Hall.. the name Supremes was just used as a high profile example

[marv2]

that article, having just read it, would also question the validity of the induction of The Tempts, Vandellas, Tops, etc who ALSO didn't play instruments or write their own songs..it would apply to many of the vocal groups inducted into the Hall.. the name Supremes was just used as a high profile example

True. I do not agree with their way of thinking. Rock and Roll was born from R&B.

[marv2]

that article, having just read it, would also question the validity of the induction of The Tempts, Vandellas, Tops, etc who ALSO didn't play instruments or write their own songs..it would apply to many of the vocal groups inducted into the Hall.. the name Supremes was just used as a high profile example

There is a vocal group Hall of Fame in Sharon, PA,but it is no where nearly as known as the RRHOF.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the original Supremes were black and female and had more #1 singles than any other American recording group has ever had, so I'm sure that might be a problem for people who have problems with either 'black' or 'women'...or both..

[marv2]

the original Supremes were black and female and had more #1 singles than any other American recording group has ever had, so I'm sure that might be a problem for people who have problems with either 'black' or 'women'...or both..

I have to say I believe you are right in this case. Check out the thread here with the videos from the 1988 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Inductions the year the Supremes were inducted to see who gets the majority of the spotlight.

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes are constantly underplayed in the importance arena, always have been..
compare to The Beatles,white men... historic grudges and battles between Lennon and McCartney [[sound familiar?) and not every single that said The Beatles was really The Beatles, so many hits were just Paul, or Paul and John.. double/triple standards at work?

[marv2]

The Supremes are constantly underplayed in the importance arena, always have been..
compare to The Beatles,white men... historic grudges and battles between Lennon and McCartney [[sound familiar?) and not every single that said The Beatles was really The Beatles, so many hits were just Paul, or Paul and John.. double/triple standards at work?

Double standards are clearly in play when it comes to music history and these two particular groups. Several months ago Mary made the comment to TMZ that they, the Supremes gave the Beatles a run for their money. Some people gasped like "how dare she?"!

[BigAl]

Double standards are clearly in play when it comes to music history and these two particular groups. Several months ago Mary made the comment to TMZ that they, the Supremes gave the Beatles a run for their money. Some people gasped like "how dare she?"!

If the criteria for induction were limited only to "self-contained" acts [[those which wrote their own material and played their own instruments) I could see the argument. But if that were the case, there would be VERY few acts inducted. Instead, the Hall of Fame honors those acts which influenced the genre, regardless of whether they were just performers or whether they controlled the entire musical process. Because of this, of course The Supremes gave The Beatles a run [[not necessarily for their money because there's no contest there) for three years if you take everything into consideration. I'll not argue the point when it comes to creative innovation and influence on the industry.

[marv2]

If the criteria for induction were limited only to "self-contained" acts [[those which wrote their own material and played their own instruments) I could see the argument. But if that were the case, there would be VERY few acts inducted. Instead, the Hall of Fame honors those acts which influenced the genre, regardless of whether they were just performers or whether they controlled the entire musical process. Because of this, of course The Supremes gave The Beatles a run [[not necessarily for their money because there's no contest there) for three years if you take everything into consideration. I'll not argue the point when it comes to creative innovation and influence on the industry.

NWA is very self-contained, yet you had people like Gene Simmons of KISS complaining about their induction into the Hall.

[Jimi LaLumia]

influence on the industry? The Supremes made black acceptable to teenagers in millions of white racist households in the 1960's [[ I can personally atttest to THAT!).. no other artists of color could challenge the 'pop culture' transformation that The Supremes delivered to white top 40 America.. to me, that beats 'creative innovation' , which is a matter of opinion, any day of the week..

[marv2]

influence on the industry? The Supremes made black acceptable to teenagers in millions of white racist households in the 1960's [[ I can personally atttest to THAT!).. no other artists of color could challenge the 'pop culture' transformation that The Supremes delivered to white top 40 America.. to me, that beats 'creative innovation' , which is a matter of opinion, any day of the week..

The Supremes were a part of a movement. Their act was strategically designed to appeal to blacks and whites. The goal was to crossover and bring the whole of Motown with them.

[Jimi LaLumia]

exactly..thus the show tunes, the gowns, the sophistication, the 'glam' before there was 'glam'..

[marv2]

exactly..thus the show tunes, the gowns, the sophistication, the 'glam' before there was 'glam'..

You got it Jimi! Which is why Berry employed old school help like Maurice King, Cholly Atkins and Mrs Powell. They were of a different generation than the Motown Artists,but they knew from experience what would be acceptable to the supper club crowd.