Questions About Recording Mixes And Sound Levels

[mr_june]

Motown and especially to me Philly songs have very nice arrangements that are very well done. Thom Bell once said that he arranges music with little sounds and phrases going on in the background. He referred to this as "the inner ear". When I read that quote in some long forgotten black publication, I knew right away what he was talking about.

As a teen listening to stereo records [[on a Sears Roebuck record player with stand alone stereo speakers) in the basement of my parent's house I got a kick out of hearing those "inner ear" sounds of Bell and others. The only problem is I've always wondered why you can sometimes barely hear those parts. I could get much better enjoyment out of the experience if they were not mixed so low.

These days, I've become skeptical about buying CDs as I've noticed mixes that have changed from when I first heard a particular song. The levels of certain instruments and background singers are all over the map on the same CD title by the same artist.

So, why are the mixes for a CD varying from one CD to another? Is anyone messing with the mix? When a record is mixed, who is in charge? Who decides to make this loud and this low? To me, a lot of Philly material has background stuff mixed to low. Is it a Ralph Terrana or Joe Tarsia who decides on sound levels or does the producer inform the engineer how they want a piece of music to sound?

[soulster]

I'm guessing that the reason you are hearing things a bit differently is because you're hearing the actual tape and a better transfer of that tape to the digital medium. First, when you played those records, the tonal balances were off a bit. And, when you played them on that Sears record player, things were played back more inaccurately. With CD, you are hearing it like they mixed it.

Now, there is a separate issue, and that's the remix. The modern-day remixes done by people like Tom Moulton. He goes back to the original multitracks and literally remixes it to sound deliberately different. I personally do not care for these, as I always prefer the originals.

I know what you mean by the small things. If you're talking about the mix quality, it is described as "microdynamics". If you're talking about little bits here and there, Quincy Jones calls that "ear candy". But, whatever it's called, those tiny things make the music special, gives the listener little things to listen to.

These topics are why I love sound production, and wish it were discussed more on this forum. It's not necessarily about being an audiophile, but, if you notice these things and care, that makes you an audiophile, and it's nice to have some on this forum. I'd much rather have these kinds of threads that gossip. I swear gossip threads are one of the main things that take the quality of this forum down a few notches.

[ralpht]

Mr. June,
If things are done according to proper production methods, it is the producer who decides where everything goes with the over all sound of the mix. The engineer is there to do the producer's bidding. In some cases, as with my brother, the producer, or Creative Department, will just hand the mixing task over to him. Also, at Motown, the mixes went to Billie Jean Brown in Quality Control. If she wanted changes, she would forward the request to Creative. Once all agreed that the mix was as good as possible, the record was released. I've never been a fan of remixing unless the original mix was so poor it needed correcting.

[mr_june]

Thanks for the replies Soulster and Ralph. I knew that I would get good information at SDF. I never thought of myself as an audiophile. I thought that was someone with expensive equipment and a very large collection of music but I do care about sound quality and other things that can make music sound better. Ear candy is another good term Soulster and thanks for mentioning that.

A good example of ear candy and of a mix being changed is from the original is in The Intruders, "Cowboys To Girls" when Little Sonny is singing after a break something that sounds like "And it's me that you're kissing, ain't if fun reminiscing" there is an organ playing in the left channel. On the HDtracks, high resolution album download release it's barely audible but is audible on the original LP and 45RPM released in 1968.

Ralph, after reading your story I was doubly pleased that you replied and gave a glimpse into the workings of a studio's personnel. I had never read anything about that anywhere else before and it made me even more curious about recording studios and the people who work with the music at that point.

[soulster]

A good example of ear candy and of a mix being changed is from the original is in The Intruders, "Cowboys To Girls" when Little Sonny is singing after a break something that sounds like "And it's me that you're kissing, ain't if fun reminiscing" there is an organ playing in the left channel. On the HDtracks, high resolution album download release it's barely audible but is audible on the original LP and 45RPM released in 1968.

I'm guessing that you're a headphone listener, no? I am not. I never noticed the organ, but i'll look out for it. I just have the song on CD in both mono and stereo.

Sometimes, when they master things for CD, they won't remix, but they will rebalance the left and right channels by various techniques. One popular method for tweaking the sound is with mid-side processing that can only be done in the digital realm.

Ralph, after reading your story I was doubly pleased that you replied and gave a glimpse into the workings of a studio's personnel. I had never read anything about that anywhere else before and it made me even more curious about recording studios and the people who work with the music at that point.

This was done at Motown, and maybe Hot Wax/Invictus, but it is not the way the recording business works from the 70s forward.

[detmotownguy]

Mr. June,
If things are done according to proper production methods, it is the producer who decides where everything goes with the over all sound of the mix. The engineer is there to do the producer's bidding. In some cases, as with my brother, the producer, or Creative Department, will just hand the mixing task over to him. Also, at Motown, the mixes went to Billie Jean Brown in Quality Control. If she wanted changes, she would forward the request to Creative. Once all agreed that the mix was as good as possible, the record was released. I've never been a fan of remixing unless the original mix was so poor it needed correcting.

Hello Ralph:
Do you know of any book that expounds on Billie Jean Brown's contributions/roles @ Motown? I imagine that she possessed a fair amt of power and influence.
Thanks

[robb_k]

Hello Ralph:
Do you know of any book that expounds on Billie Jean Brown's contributions/roles @ Motown? I imagine that she possessed a fair amt of power and influence.
Thanks

Ron Waller's book, "The Motown Story" had a chapter about her, as I recall. She was their lawyer, and also was very important in the committee that made decisions in the Quality Control Department", deciding upon which productions would be released, when, and in what form.

[ralpht]

Motownguy,
Billie Jean had a lot of power in the Creative Division. She and Harry Balk would knock heads from time to time when she would judge mixes coming from the Rare Earth side of the company. As good as she was, Billie wasn't adept at critiquing Rock and Roll. Harry would eventually take that task from her and lay much of it on me.

Robb,
Billie Jean did not become a lawyer until after her days at Motown.

[detmotownguy]

Motownguy,
Billie Jean had a lot of power in the Creative Division. She and Harry Balk would knock heads from time to time when she would judge mixes coming from the Rare Earth side of the company. As good as she was, Billie wasn't adept at critiquing Rock and Roll. Harry would eventually take that task from her and lay much of it on me.

Robb,
Billie Jean did not become a lawyer until after her days at Motown.

Thanks Ralph and Robb!

[robb_k]

Motownguy,
Billie Jean had a lot of power in the Creative Division. She and Harry Balk would knock heads from time to time when she would judge mixes coming from the Rare Earth side of the company. As good as she was, Billie wasn't adept at critiquing Rock and Roll. Harry would eventually take that task from her and lay much of it on me.

Robb,
Billie Jean did not become a lawyer until after her days at Motown.

Thanks for clearing that up, Ralph. I read Waller again, and he stated that Billie Jean quit Motown to attend law school. I don't know where I read it, but I remember reading somewhere that "she had a very clear and logical mind, and would advise Berry when he needed to have his lawyer look into a matter. I took that to mean that she gave the in-house advice on legal matters, But, clearly, I was being presumptuous in that regard.

[funkcity]

The dynamics of mixing for a vinyl record and a CD are quite different. And there is less headroom the closer you get to the center of the vinyl record. A CD can be very accurate but as always people tend to mix pop cds for maximum level. And they will absolutely mask those
"microdynamics" nuances you speak of. The compression and limiting will remove dynamics and high frequency.....but it will be louder.

[soulster]

The dynamics of mixing for a vinyl record and a CD are quite different. And there is less headroom the closer you get to the center of the vinyl record. A CD can be very accurate but as always people tend to mix pop cds for maximum level. And they will absolutely mask those
"microdynamics" nuances you speak of. The compression and limiting will remove dynamics and high frequency.....but it will be louder.

Not really. The only thing that is done differently in vinyl mastering is that either a limiter or EQ is applied near the inner tracks, and with a computer handling the signal fed to the lathe, even that's not necessary. And, if you play that record with a line-contact stylus, the inner-groove distortion ceases to exist.

[mr_june]

This is good stuff. It seems that folks down the line [[years later) should take care to not loose any sound elements when setting new levels and doing new mixes. It makes me wonder what people who heard the music in a studio think about some of these decades later releases with different sound levels. I know it leaves me scratching my head. I guess that is another reason to own your masters and publishing. Then you could say "I Pity The Fool Who Tries To Change My Music."

[soulster]

This is good stuff. It seems that folks down the line [[years later) should take care to not loose any sound elements when setting new levels and doing new mixes. It makes me wonder what people who heard the music in a studio think about some of these decades later releases with different sound levels. I know it leaves me scratching my head. I guess that is another reason to own your masters and publishing. Then you could say "I Pity The Fool Who Tries To Change My Music."

You kidding? It's the artists that are the ones who are never happy and want to change stuff.

[ralpht]

You nailed it Soulster. I doubt that there is a producer or artist that doesn't get the "I wish I would haves" a given time after the final mix and release. Goes with the territory I suppose. I heard Paul McCartney talk about that in an interview.

[mr_june]

I was kidding but did not know about the regrets the artist had. What kind of regrets? Also if the producer was the one in control why would he say "I wish I would have?" Is the producer second guessing him/her self at that point?

[ralpht]

Absolutely, Mr. June. Things like...Did I have enough compression on the bass. Could I have fattened it up a bit more. Is the lead buried a little in the third verse....Stuff like that. It happens.

[thommg]

I imagine speed was a mitigating factory back in the 1960's - 1970's. It seems that so much product was being released, Motown groups were releasing an album every 6 months or so! No wonder the producers had some regrets. What they really needed was more time. I'm wondering, once product slowed to once every 2-2.5 years, did the producers feel better about the product or were they still feeling like they could have done it better?

[soulster]

Absolutely, Mr. June. Things like...Did I have enough compression on the bass. Could I have fattened it up a bit more. Is the lead buried a little in the third verse....Stuff like that. It happens.

Exactly. And, things don't come out as desired when dealing with deadlines. But I would say that the worst one to 'fix" things is the artist. A lot of them want to go in and redo parts, even re-record things. I guess, in a way, we should be happy they think like that because that's what they do, create. But, as far as leaving something alone? Nope. They can't help themselves if given the opportunity. Look at these modern day remixers. They always change something! They can't help themselves. They have to put their own stamp on things.

I have to admit, though, even I get the itch. I was listening to Michael Jackson's "Will You Be There". Great song! But his voice on the ad-lib sounded thin and weak, almost like a cartoon. I would have fattened his vocal a bit.

[soulster]

I imagine speed was a mitigating factory back in the 1960's - 1970's. It seems that so much product was being released, Motown groups were releasing an album every 6 months or so! No wonder the producers had some regrets. What they really needed was more time. I'm wondering, once product slowed to once every 2-2.5 years, did the producers feel better about the product or were they still feeling like they could have done it better?

The danger in taking too long is that you can overthink things. Sometimes your best instincts are your first ones. Some of those hits wouldn't have been if they had taken too much time on them. Taking your time can cause you to lose that energy, that urgency of the sound.

[ralpht]

Here is an older video of my brother Russ and me discussing mixing. Soulster, the last couple of minutes of the video illustrate exactly the last line of your previous post.

https://youtu.be/lCMaUvoecqQ

[soulster]

Here is an older video of my brother Russ and me discussing mixing. Soulster, the last couple of minutes of the video illustrate exactly the last line of your previous post.

https://youtu.be/lCMaUvoecqQ

Great stories, and exactly what i'm talking about. You do mix after mix after mix, and then you lose focus.

[thommg]

Thanks for posting that link, Ralph. It reminded me that I have a lot of video watching to do. The chats with you and Russ are fascinating. I love hearing stories of how the music got put together and came to be. I so appreciate you guys taking the time to put that out there for us.

[ralpht]

Thanks Thommg. Now that I'm living in Michigan again, and Russ is still in California, we no longer can get together for videos. I'm happy for the ones we have though and most of them contain interesting information.