Wrong Lead Single - Ross lps

[Jimi LaLumia]

I don't mean to sound so harsh, but, as a Ross devotee since 1964 [[I was 12 years old) the RCA material sounded false, synthetic to me, there was nothing there I could really like..for those who found enjoyment in the RCA material, by all means, enjoy, more power to you..

[Ollie9]

Respect to you vgalindo. I am happy that these "barren" years were appreciated by some. She did indeed cut some good stuff at RCA but not nearly enough in my opinion. "missing you" "it's hard for me to say""cross my heart" and maybe a couple of tracks from "eaten alive" can proudly stand alongside her classic Motown work but as for some of the stuff on her earlier RCA albums.......... I despaired at the time and still do, and credit to her for later admitting to some gross errors of judgement during this period. She needed Berry or some other influence to guide her. She thought she was unstoppable. She thought wrong, but that is history and she learned some valuable lessons ,so it was not a total waste of several years.

I guess life is a learning curve for all of us Bluebrock, Diana just seemed to take her time doing just that during this period.....but she got there.
I agree with Jimi in that a lot of Diana's RCA output sounded synthetic and false to my ears, perhaps with the exception of RHRAB where her vocals at least sound warm and sincere. It kind of felt as if she was going through the motions to fulfill her obligation to the record company and to make money.. Diana seemed to have so much going on during this busy busy period that getting involved with making an album kind of slipped down the list of priorities on her business schedule.
I guess if lessons were learnt the years were not really wasted ones.

[Jimi LaLumia]

If I had to single out one of her RCA adventures, it would have to be "Swept Away', the single and the album, were my most satisfying moments of the RCA years..

[daviddh]

one good thing about the 80's was it put Diana back in the POP market and for a while Diana had a string of POP hits....consistently, which she really hadn't had since she left the Supremes.... this was a nice hit streak if you count the singles from 1980 to 85. but you are correct ,some did sound strange or was that the 80s???

[Jimi LaLumia]

I think that Upside Down, I'm Coming Out, It's My Turn and Endless Love was a pretty good string of post Supremes pop hits on Motown...
and Touch Me in The Morning, Special Part Of Me, Last Time I Saw Him, My Mistake, Do You Know Where You're Going To, and Love Hangover,all between 73 and 76, was nothing to sneeze at either..

[daviddh]

agreed Jimi, but there were also times when she was off the charts completely or went straight to the top or missed the top 40 all together. some of the misses were thru no fault of her own as a few I am surprised were not big hits. one thing I didn't like about music in usa, some artists can get instant airplay while other do not. but I do think she had a nice run for a few years there between 80-85

[Jimi LaLumia]

once she left Motown , Why Do Fools went to #7 in 1981, and in 1982 she had two more top ten hits, Mirror Mirror went to 8 and Muscles made it to 10...all downhill from there; So Close made it to #40 in 83, and also in 83 Pieces Of Ice went to #31.. in 84, a Columbia Records duet with Julio Inglesias, "All Of You" went to #19, and also 84, 'Swept away' went to 19, and then, in 1985, "Missing You" made it to #10.. a total of 4 top ten singles for the entire 1980's, none of them #1 or even Top 5.. so there ya go

[Jimi LaLumia]

having said that, the 80's was an astounding 3rd decade of a recording career, not many can make that claim.. but I don't think RCA got their 20 million worth and it probably veered other, non-Motown labels away from her after the RCA era ended

[daviddh]

you are correct Jim but many of these songs did well on various charts,Missing You went #1 R@B and Chain Reaction went #1 everywhere but the USA.overall she had a good 25 year run up to this point.

[Jimi LaLumia]

all that concerns me in the conversation is the biggest market in the world, America..

[daviddh]

U r correct again.USA is the biggest market. But will add in chain reaction did sell over a million copies in UK market. Anyway.u r right. But I was happy she had a good run

[Albator]

U r correct again.USA is the biggest market. But will add in chain reaction did sell over a million copies in UK market. Anyway.u r right. But I was happy she had a good run

When the gallup statistics were published, Chain reaction was just over 500 000 in the UK. 1 million is an astonishing figure for the uk market in the 80's.

[Albator]

All her Motown Lps are not masterpieces .
As followers , "Working Overtime" is not better than any of her RCA albums and FBTP is pretty much in the same vein than "RHRB". The main difference is that she stopped producing tracks.

[Ollie9]

Tom Dowd produced the RHRAB album, so she had stopped producing while still with RCA. I guess it all boils down to personal musical taste, but i think "Workin' Overtime" is far better then four of her RCA albums....In the minority i may be.
RHRAB is a nice album with the wrong lead single. Had it been as well promoted as FBTP was in Europe i think it would have done well.
'Tis true not all Diana's motown albums are masterpieces, but for me even the weaker ones are musically more satisfying then her first three efforts for RCA......

[Albator]

Well, to me "missing you" alone is worth the whole Working overtime lp. This was a major disappointment
I don't blame Diana, since she gave great performances , but the artistic direction of Nile Rogers .

[Jimi LaLumia]

none of the 'return to Motown' albums did anything for me, they were all over the place, sad to say..and when I saw the cover art of Working Overtime I just shook my head..'what is WRONG with this girl?"...I still love her and supported all the releases as a music magazine writer and as a Billboard/Soundscan reporter at the record store I owned, but I recognized a lost cause when I saw one..

[Bluebrock]

none of the 'return to Motown' albums did anything for me, they were all over the place, sad to say..and when I saw the cover art of Working Overtime I just shook my head..'what is WRONG with this girl?"...I still love her and supported all the releases as a music magazine writer and as a Billboard/Soundscan reporter at the record store I owned, but I recognized a lost cause when I saw one..

I agree Jimi. "wo" was a total embarrassment in every respect. That cover was shocking, though it was not her idea but someone at Motown. Nile Rogers was partially to blame. i think he deliberately produced a stinker of an album to gain revenge for Diana's behaviour during the Chic album sessions!

[Bluebrock]

Tom Dowd produced the RHRAB album, so she had stopped producing while still with RCA. I guess it all boils down to personal musical taste, but i think "Workin' Overtime" is far better then four of her RCA albums....In the minority i may be.
RHRAB is a nice album with the wrong lead single. Had it been as well promoted as FBTP was in Europe i think it would have done well.
'Tis true not all Diana's motown albums are masterpieces, but for me even the weaker ones are musically more satisfying then her first three efforts for RCA......

You are quite right Olllie. Not all her Motown albums were masterpieces - "everything is everything" and "last time i saw him" anyone, but i also agree that they were better than the first three RCA efforts, but for me she hit an all time low with "wo". I cannot say here what Diana thought of that album but it would make your Spinster Aunt blush for a month!

[sup_fan]

while i do enjoy her 80s and 90s material [[although not as much as her 60s and 70s) i think the problem with all of it is it's not cutting edge. she wasn't leading musical trends any more but occasionally following them. in the 60s the Sups obviously broken ground and as a solo artist, she did so multiple times. her debut lp and the Surrender follow up, Lady project, Touch me project, Love Hangover project, Boss, then diana 1980 all were new sounds and new artistic statements.

in the 80s, other artists like Madonna, Michael Jackson, the british invasion, etc were the industry leaders. Then in the late 80s and 90s you had hip hop, jack, heavy r&b, grunge, then the return of pop and Latin in late 90s, etc.

frankly, she might have been better served to have released that standards lp on RCA. or continued with something new in the jazz arena. i like all of her Lady work but there's MUCH more to jazz than simply Billie Holiday. diana did such a wonderful job with the Lady songbook it's a shame she never continued in this genre to include other material.

or she could have easily beaten Rod Stewart to the punch by doing an american song book.

[Jimi LaLumia]

as I recall, Clive Davis wanted her to go the American Song Book route, and she said no..

[florence]

Well at least I'm not alone in appreciating the RCA years although it would appear to be a tiny minority.

I think her RCA material has been harshly and unfairly judged.

I love the Silk Electric, Swept Away and Eaten Alive albums.

At the time of release Swept Away was my favourite Diana album to date.

There is a sublime section on Eaten Aalive - I Love Being in Love [[With You), Crime Of Passion and Don't Give Up On Each Other which I play over and over - pure heaven!

[florence]

When the gallup statistics were published, Chain reaction was just over 500 000 in the UK. 1 million is an astonishing figure for the uk market in the 80's.

According to the Record Mirror year end survey based on Gallup figures Chain Reaction was the 5th biggest seller of the year in the UK in 1986 shifting 651,000 copies.

From 1987-89 it sold a further 30k without charting and a further 40k in a five week chart run in 1993.

From 2004 it has been a consistent seller on Download in the UK entering the iTunes top 1500 many times and going as high as the top 200. It has now sold close to and probably more than 800k in total in the UK.

It was one of only 3 records certified Platinum in Australia in 1986 for sales in excess of 100k. A claim on Wikipedia that it went triple Platinum in that country looks false to me - I can find no more than a single Platinum certification in the Australian database.

In the UK and Australia alone the record has done 900k+ and could be well in excess depending on just how many it did sell in Oz.

However it was a #11 hit in the lucrative German market with a sale at least in the high five figires plus a #1 in Ireland and top twenty in France which are five figure sales.

Fans do tend to think sales are bigger than they actually and rather surprisingly I think there are only 9 of Diana's solo singles which have sold over 1 million globally but Chain Reaction is definitely one of them.

[daviddh]

yes that was my point, all sales totated, Chan Reaction did well.
I think Diana should have had Workin Overtime remixed like she did with Diana.album, and dropped the title cut

[Bluebrock]

yes that was my point, all sales totated, Chan Reaction did well.
I think Diana should have had Workin Overtime remixed like she did with Diana.album, and dropped the title cut

She wanted to do just that david but left herself with insufficient time to do so.

[Ollie9]

You are quite right Olllie. Not all her Motown albums were masterpieces - "everything is everything" and "last time i saw him" anyone, but i also agree that they were better than the first three RCA efforts, but for me she hit an all time low with "wo". I cannot say here what Diana thought of that album but it would make your Spinster Aunt blush for a month!

My god!!! did she really think it that bad. It's strange because she performed the songs with such gusto on the WO tour. I honestly think "This House" and "We Stand Together" are in a different league to songs such as "So Close" or "Any Where You Run To" of which i both hate. I think i need to start an "Appreciation Of Workin' Overtime Society".
Can't wait for the expanded edition lol.

[Bluebrock]

My god!!! did she really think it that bad. It's strange because she performed the songs with such gusto on the WO tour. I honestly think "This House" and "We Stand Together" are in a different league to songs such as "So Close" or "Any Where You Run To" of which i both hate. I think i need to start an "Appreciation Of Workin' Overtime Society".
Can't wait for the expanded edition lol.

You will be able to hold your conventions in a phone booth!! Diana was/is the ultimate professional and would always look like she loved what she performed, but the reality of the situation was...................

[Jimi LaLumia]

LOL!! good one Bluebrock

[vgalindo]

Florence. I too love these albums very much!! Love Silk Electric.

[JohnnyB]

LOL!! good one Bluebrock

It is quite a revelation to hear Diana was unhappy with the Working Overtime project. I have been a huge fan for 40 years and I, like most contributors to this post, have DR albums that I feel were solid efforts as well as others that were just okay. BUT, I never understood the WO project and couldn't believe she was proud of it. I did like the title track, but NOTHING else. I was beyond shocked and disappointed. Although a few songs have grown on me over the years, it is still my least favorite of her solo albums.

Knowing she had the task of promoting a project she wasn't proud of says a lot about the industry and the uncomfortable position she found herself in at such an important time in her career...

[Bluebrock]

It is quite a revelation to hear Diana was unhappy with the Working Overtime project. I have been a huge fan for 40 years and I, like most contributors to this post, have DR albums that I feel were solid efforts as well as others that were just okay. BUT, I never understood the WO project and couldn't believe she was proud of it. I did like the title track, but NOTHING else. I was beyond shocked and disappointed. Although a few songs have grown on me over the years, it is still my least favorite of her solo albums.

Knowing she had the task of promoting a project she wasn't proud of says a lot about the industry and the uncomfortable position she found herself in at such an important time in her career...

She soon found her mojo again Johnny. She loved "force behind the power" and "take me higher".

[Jimi LaLumia]

From what I recall hearing at the time. regarding WO, Ross wanted to be in with 'the times', meaning new jack, Jody Watley sounding stuff that was on the radio.. Ross was thinking of herself as a new comer, having to compete with the kids.. big mistake.. her 'rival' on the charts at the time, Bette Midler [[they did not get along) went to #1 with "Wind Beneath My Wings" and Top Ten with "From A Distance' on the pop chart around the same time that Ross was trying to be down with the kids.. Ross should have stuck to being Ross, how many fan discussions are currently on going for Jody Watley?

[Bluebrock]

From what I recall hearing at the time. regarding WO, Ross wanted to be in with 'the times', meaning new jack, Jody Watley sounding stuff that was on the radio.. Ross was thinking of herself as a new comer, having to compete with the kids.. big mistake.. her 'rival' on the charts at the time, Bette Midler [[they did not get along) went to #1 with "Wind Beneath My Wings" and Top Ten with "From A Distance' on the pop chart around the same time that Ross was trying to be down with the kids.. Ross should have stuck to being Ross, how many fan discussions are currently on going for Jody Watley?

She was also given Janet Jackson's amazing success as another reason to attempt to connect to a more youthful audience. I can understand the reasoning behind it all , She had the chance to work with Jam and Lewis and turned it down even before their success with Janet Jackson. She should have done a full album with Luther and dismissed the idea of new jack swing, the idea of which came from a certain someone at Motown.

[Ollie9]

You will be able to hold your conventions in a phone booth!! Diana was/is the ultimate professional and would always look like she loved what she performed, but the reality of the situation was...................

Oh, so cruel.... like an arrow through my heart. What else can i say other than I will love WO till the day i die. Having said that i do feel such a project was a huge risk for her to take at such an important juncture in her recording career.
One thing i do not understand is surely Diana must have realised she did not like what she was hearing when recording began. Why did she not pull the plug then instead of recording the whole album???

[thommg]

Glad to hear that Silk Electric & Working Overtime have their fans. I think those two LPs are the ones I play least [[especially WO) and just never seem to resonate with me.

I remember when WO was released. I went to a small gathering at a friend of a friend's apartment. The host said he had gotten the cd and then ranted about how awful he thought it was. He didn't get it. "And where's that song from the freakin' movie? Why isn't that on here?" He was referring to If We Hold On Together. That's what he wanted to hear from Diana, not the new jack swing. And I agreed with that after I heard the album..

[Bluebrock]

Oh, so cruel.... like an arrow through my heart. What else can i say other than I will love WO till the day i die. Having said that i do feel such a project was a huge risk for her to take at such an important juncture in her recording career.
One thing i do not understand is surely Diana must have realised she did not like what she was hearing when recording began. Why did she not pull the plug then instead of recording the whole album???

She wanted 3 months to remix the album in much the way she did the "Diana" album but Motown would not allow that. I wish she had been given that chance because any tinkering would surely have been an improvement. Sorry Ollie, I know you love the album but that sound was totally wrong for Diana. Even Nile Rogers didn't like the project. At one point she did threaten to abandon the whole project. I remember having to coax her into performing "this house" on the Wogan tv show. She had flatly refuse to perform the title track and at one point it looked like she would pull out of the whole show. I think this was the beginning of my friendship with her. We really bonded during those days and after that it was virtually all plain sailing after that with the odd exception.

[Bluebrock]

Glad to hear that Silk Electric & Working Overtime have their fans. I think those two LPs are the ones I play least [[especially WO) and just never seem to resonate with me.

I remember when WO was released. I went to a small gathering at a friend or a friend's apartment. The host said he had gotten the cd and then ranted about how awful he thought it was. He didn't get it. "And where's that song from the freakin' movie? Why isn't that on here?" He was referring to If We Hold On Together. That's what he wanted to hear from Diana, not the new jack swing. And I agreed with that after I heard the album..

Spot on Thom!

[Ollie9]

She wanted 3 months to remix the album in much the way she did the "Diana" album but Motown would not allow that. I wish she had been given that chance because any tinkering would surely have been an improvement. Sorry Ollie, I know you love the album but that sound was totally wrong for Diana. Even Nile Rogers didn't like the project. At one point she did threaten to abandon the whole project. I remember having to coax her into performing "this house" on the Wogan tv show. She had flatly refuse to perform the title track and at one point it looked like she would pull out of the whole show. I think this was the beginning of my friendship with her. We really bonded during those days and after that it was virtually all plain sailing after that with the odd exception.

I do think the remixes for WO are superb and add a lot to the songs. It's tantalising to think what she might have done with this project if given the time. Recording some of the songs in a lower key would have been a good idea. Diana has recorded so many different genres of music over the years, it's not suprising that fans are divided over certain projects.
"This House" happens to be of my all time favourite ballads from our lady. I think she looks absolutely stunning in the promo video.

[honest man]

I bought all the Ross RCA etc i am a completist although rarely play them ,tried so hard to love them although there are a few brilliant songs on the albums ,i reckon Force behind the power was the best of the bunch,also SWEPT AWAY Video she is stunning won't say much more about that on here lol,anyway i would not care for anymore outakes from that era though i wouls buy them,the only song i would love to be released is a studio version of WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD ,I Would be a very happy chappy,cheers.

[Bluebrock]

I do think the remixes for WO are superb and add a lot to the songs. It's tantalising to think what she might have done with this project if given the time. Recording some of the songs in a lower key would have been a good idea. Diana has recorded so many different genres of music over the years, it's not suprising that fans are divided over certain projects.
"This House" happens to be of my all time favourite ballads from our lady. I think she looks absolutely stunning in the promo video.

She was absolutely stunning in the flesh too Ollie. I remember feeling blown away by her natural beauty. Her exercise regime was brutal but boy did she look good!

[Bluebrock]

I bought all the Ross RCA etc i am a completist although rarely play them ,tried so hard to love them although there are a few brilliant songs on the albums ,i reckon Force behind the power was the best of the bunch,also SWEPT AWAY Video she is stunning won't say much more about that on here lol,anyway i would not care for anymore outakes from that era though i wouls buy them,the only song i would love to be released is a studio version of WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD ,I Would be a very happy chappy,cheers.

I am with you on most of that honest man. I would also love to hear the studio versions of "waww" but they are under lock and key for the moment, but don't despair. I haven't totally given up on this "lost" album seeing the light of day. Ever the eternal optimist!

[daviddh]

bluebrock, if Diana was to record again. what producer or style album do you think she should go with.
I would like her to do a few more songs with Barry Gibb but maybe not an entire album.
I am not sure why she turned down Clive Davis especially if she recorded a standards album at RCA and left it in the can.i think it would have worked for her. I like the duet she did with Rod stewart but I am not a big fan of Rods and really didn't think the voices matched up well but Diana sounded great on her part. wish she had recorded a solo version of this song,again standards album.hmmm.
to bad Motown didn't let her remix WO. she did some good songs on there but it didn't sound like her kinda.i always liked Keep On Dancin and Bottom Line. Motown said no because.......they wanted it to fail? I get the par tabout appealing to a younger crowd because ,.as they say , the kids are buying the cds....but give her credit for trying something new.

[daviddh]

I have trimed my RCA playlist down to about 3 albums ,omitting so many tracks.but I am surprised how much I like the tracks from Ross 83...THATS HOW YOU START OVER, LETS GO UP, YOU DO IT. side B is lackluster but side 1 is really good.

[Bluebrock]

bluebrock, if Diana was to record again. what producer or style album do you think she should go with.
I would like her to do a few more songs with Barry Gibb but maybe not an entire album.
I am not sure why she turned down Clive Davis especially if she recorded a standards album at RCA and left it in the can.i think it would have worked for her. I like the duet she did with Rod stewart but I am not a big fan of Rods and really didn't think the voices matched up well but Diana sounded great on her part. wish she had recorded a solo version of this song,again standards album.hmmm.
to bad Motown didn't let her remix WO. she did some good songs on there but it didn't sound like her kinda.i always liked Keep On Dancin and Bottom Line. Motown said no because.......they wanted it to fail? I get the par tabout appealing to a younger crowd because ,.as they say , the kids are buying the cds....but give her credit for trying something new.

I would go with Barry Gibb and maybe Lionel Richie. Diana did want to work with Barry again in the 90's but at that time the Bee Gees were still popular in Europe and Australia and he wasn't that keen, but after working with Streisand again he said he would be up for a reunion with Diana and even prepared some songs for the proposed project. Richie was originally meant to produce what would eventually become "force behind.." but that didn't materialise either. I also think that Gary Barlow from Take That could work well with Diana, and then of course Nile Rogers is desperate to work with her again, as is Pharrell Williams if she wanted a "younger" sound.

[honest man]

I am with you on most of that honest man. I would also love to hear the studio versions of "waww" but they are under lock and key for the moment, but don't despair. I haven't totally given up on this "lost" album seeing the light of day. Ever the eternal optimist!

keep talking mate you are inspiring,cheers.

[honest man]

I would go with Barry Gibb and maybe Lionel Richie. Diana did want to work with Barry again in the 90's but at that time the Bee Gees were still popular in Europe and Australia and he wasn't that keen, but after working with Streisand again he said he would be up for a reunion with Diana and even prepared some songs for the proposed project. Richie was originally meant to produce what would eventually become "force behind.." but that didn't materialise either. I also think that Gary Barlow from Take That could work well with Diana, and then of course Nile Rogers is desperate to work with her again, as is Pharrell Williams if she wanted a "younger" sound.

Stevie Wonder producing covers of his wonderful ballads also would go for Elton John ,don't know where that came from......

[Bluebrock]

Stevie Wonder producing covers of his wonderful ballads also would go for Elton John ,don't know where that came from......

Yeah. Two more splendid ideas. I particularly like the sound of the Elton songbook. Stevies have been done to death but Elton has a rich body of work that would lend itself well to Diana's voice. Great idea!

[daviddh]

would love her to record Ribbon in The Sky.

[Jaap]

The problem with Rod Stewart’s American Songbook albums, as well as the last Aretha Franklin album and Diana’s I Love You album, is that in the aim to create a bestselling mainstream album, the final result tends to be lackluster productions of familiar songs that border on karaoke. If Diana ever makes an album again, I sincerely hope that she will focus on a niche adult soul market instead. My personal wish would be for Diana Ross to make an album with original songs, backed by some good musicians, in collaboration with artists like Raphael Saadiq, Alicia Keys, and Emeli Sandé. I’m sure that these great artists would jump at the opportunity to work with a legend like Ross. Rather than a commercial comeback, I think Ross deserves an artistic comeback [[similar to Bettye LaVette’s I've Got My Own Hell to Raise), because beyond all the glamour and diva-ness, Ross is actually a great artist. Of course, Ross doesn’t need it – she has made enough great records to assure that her reputation is secured – but to have I Love You as final album of an extraordinary recording career is rather anti-climactic.

[Bluebrock]

The problem with Rod Stewart’s American Songbook albums, as well as the last Aretha Franklin album and Diana’s I Love You album, is that in the aim to create a bestselling mainstream album, the final result tends to be lackluster productions of familiar songs that border on karaoke. If Diana ever makes an album again, I sincerely hope that she will focus on a niche adult soul market instead. My personal wish would be for Diana Ross to make an album with original songs, backed by some good musicians, in collaboration with artists like Raphael Saadiq, Alicia Keys, and Emeli Sandé. I’m sure that these great artists would jump at the opportunity to work with a legend like Ross. Rather than a commercial comeback, I think Ross deserves an artistic comeback [[similar to Bettye LaVette’s I've Got My Own Hell to Raise), because beyond all the glamour and diva-ness, Ross is actually a great artist. Of course, Ross doesn’t need it – she has made enough great records to assure that her reputation is secured – but to have I Love You as final album of an extraordinary recording career is rather anti-climactic.

I would like that too jaap. She could surely
do this if she really wanted to, but as always she is strangely reluctant. I honestly do not think she wants to commit herself to a worldwide tour and promotional activities. She has enough going on in her life at the moment.

[MotownBill]

Tom Dowd produced the RHRAB album, so she had stopped producing while still with RCA. I guess it all boils down to personal musical taste, but i think "Workin' Overtime" is far better then four of her RCA albums....In the minority i may be.
RHRAB is a nice album with the wrong lead single. Had it been as well promoted as FBTP was in Europe i think it would have done well.
'Tis true not all Diana's motown albums are masterpieces, but for me even the weaker ones are musically more satisfying then her first three efforts for RCA......

Love WO too!