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  1. #1
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    The most commanding female voice of 1960s Motown?

    Which Motown female performer of the 1960s had the most formidable vocal instrument? In terms of power, range and versatility?

    I suppose most would consider it a showdown between Gladys Knight and Mary Wells. But I am not as familiar with the breadth of talent at the label in the 60s. Was Flo Ballard really on par with Aretha [[as Mary Wilson has suggested)? What about Kim Weston, Brenda Holloway or Barbara Randolph? Is Blinky just a run-of-the-mill R&B shouter? Certainly, Barbara McNair was a vocal firecracker but does she really rate with homegrown Motown talent? Tammi Terrell? Very interested to hear what true Motown connoisseurs have to say.

    For the very brave among you, please feel free to rank your choices in numerical order

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    In order [[from strongest to okay):

    Gladys Maria Knight
    Martha Rose Reeves
    Blinky [[in terms of vocals)
    Mary Wells
    Tammi Terrell
    Brenda Holloway
    Kim Weston
    Florence Ballard
    Barbara McNair

    Mary Wells was close. So was Blinky but I think her range was quite limiting and she sounded more home doing gospel than secular music.

    Tammi, IMHO, wasn't allowed to demonstrate how talented she truly was. So was Kim Weston.

    Flo was more on par with Etta James than Aretha when it came to R&B music, but I can see her doing opera, pop and jazz very well with the high soprano voice she had but honestly it's hard to tell if Motown underused her talent considering I felt like Kim and Tammi, she really wasn't allowed the freedom to explore. Mary Wilson is right in that she was the strongest vocalist of the original Supremes and I think she said Flo was like Aretha compared to them, not necessarily in general. Flo was a great vocal but I felt they never let her find her voice, either on Motown or ABC.

    Therefore, Gladys probably had more freedom to explore more than the others since her voice was able to attack anything, from gospel-emulated soul shouters to country-influenced pop ballads to stone rockers to those quiet storm type love songs.

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    I guess in terms of power. range and versatility.......Liz Lands and Hattie LIttles must be up there with the best.

    However, taste in music is very much something personal and the ladies that have really hit the spot for me would be

    Cal Street of the Velvelettes
    Scherrie Payne
    Brenda Holloway
    Kim Weston
    Diana Ross
    Gladys Knight

    If I could, I would also include Edna Wright.

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    Thelma mostly in 70s so I say Gladys for 60s with Brenda as runnerup

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    60's? Not sure. Diana's is probably the most recognizable.

    The 70's? Two words: Susaye Greene.

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    Much too difficult for me to pinpoint who is best. But to any such list, I'd always want to find the beautiful sound and accomplished vocal range of CAROLYN CRAWFORD--a voice that, time after time, really draws me into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    60's? Not sure. Diana's is probably the most recognizable.

    The 70's? Two words: Susaye Greene.
    I think they mean "powerful voices"? Diana was the voice of Motown in the '60s but... I don't know, the OP's gotta explain what he meant. Don't want to ruffle feathers.

    Forgot about Carolyn Crawford. Loved her voice in "Let's Start the Dance".

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    It really is hard to say given the framework in which the question is asked. To me, Motown was not producing records in the sixties that allowed female artists much freedom to expose and explore their talents fully. They were making in some cases catchy Pop & Soul tunes that were heavily produced.
    Methuselah2 mentions Carolyn Crawford and she does have an amazing powerful voice. I heard her sing in person several times, but Carolyn was not given much to record back in the sixties. Gladys Knight, Kim Weston and perhaps Gladys Horton come to mind when I think of the records I remember hearing in those days. Florence Ballard would have been very near the top of the list as well because she, at times dominated from the background. Her voice would cut through everything on certain records.

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    When I first read that question, I took it to mean "who had the voice that most clearly demonstrated the style, intensity, and power of the Motown sound?" If that really was the intention, then for me it would come down to a virtual tie between Gladys [[Knight not Horton), Cal, and Martha. Those ladies gave us arguably the best Motown stompers, which to me is the epitome of the Motown sound. Therefore if we were having the same discussion about the male singers, it would come down to Levi and David for the same reasons.

    Diana of course sang lead on plenty of stompers herself, but in those cases it was the record and not necessarily the vocal. For example, be fair now, is it really her voice that grabs you in the first ten seconds of Itching or Third Time? I don't think so. So I would put her more in the category of the sweeter side of the Motown sound.

    Another singer that I think belongs in this discussion that none of you have mentioned so far is Saundra Edwards. But that is mainly because HMHSY is one of the top five all time quintessential Motown songs...one that I could listen to all day.

    One final point to make is that just because I clarified Knight over Horton above does not mean that I find any kind of fault at all with Gladys H and certainly not with her co-lead, the wonderful Wanda Rogers. I loved me some Marvelettes back in the day, but their two lead singers just don't come to mind the way I interpreted this particular question.

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    Voice: Hattie littles

    The crowds and the culture: Diana

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    Quote Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown View Post
    I guess in terms of power. range and versatility.......Liz Lands and Hattie LIttles must be up there with the best.

    However, taste in music is very much something personal and the ladies that have really hit the spot for me would be

    Cal Street of the Velvelettes
    Scherrie Payne
    Brenda Holloway
    Kim Weston
    Diana Ross
    Gladys Knight

    If I could, I would also include Edna Wright.
    Name:  av-5.jpg
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    I believe you should be able to do so, as I believe that Edna sang backgrounds and demos at Los Angeles' Jobete Music sessions in 1963 and 1964.

    And, I agree that Liz Lands and Hattie Littles should be near the top, and also Mary Wilson, Brenda Holloway, Kim Weston, Gladys Knight and Blinky Williams, Martha Reeds, and Gloria Williamson [[Vells).

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    Add my vote for Saundra Edwards too!

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    Mary Wells [[Pete Moore & Booby Rogers think so too.)

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    Also Liz Lands

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    In terms of vocal power and versatility, I have to add Mary Wilson and Martha Reeves. These were vocalists. They sang without a lot of gimmicks.
    Last edited by marv2; 01-26-2016 at 03:15 PM.

  16. #16
    If we are talking soul then I guess Gladys Knight, Brenda Holloway and Kim Weston are high up there. But for me Diana Ross gets the title of "Most Commanding Voice". Right from "Breathtaking Guy" you knew she was something special. The crystal clear phrasing was a sign of things to come. And boy did they come...

    Wayne

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    Commanding: Gladys Knight, Liz Lands, Diana Ross, Hattie Littles, Tammi Terrell - to me, those voices make you stand up and take notice.

    Power: Mable John, Gladys Knight, Hattie Littles, Liz Lands, Martha Reeves, Kim Weston.

    Distinctive: Diana Ross, Gladys Knight, Kim Weston, Mary Wells, Mary Wilson.

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    I think it's Gladys hands down. Mary Wells was not versatile and had little range. Martha has a 5 octave range. Flo Ballard had a loud trilling vibrato but her vocalizing was generally wretched as you can see by her solo CD. It was not the best material, but her weak, awful vocals on most songs made them worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpbtLV3SDuc
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    Which Motown female performer of the 1960s had the most formidable vocal instrument? In terms of power, range and versatility?

    I suppose most would consider it a showdown between Gladys Knight and Mary Wells. But I am not as familiar with the breadth of talent at the label in the 60s. Was Flo Ballard really on par with Aretha [[as Mary Wilson has suggested)? What about Kim Weston, Brenda Holloway or Barbara Randolph? Is Blinky just a run-of-the-mill R&B shouter? Certainly, Barbara McNair was a vocal firecracker but does she really rate with homegrown Motown talent? Tammi Terrell? Very interested to hear what true Motown connoisseurs have to say.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGtNQmpG8xY

    For the very brave among you, please feel free to rank your choices in numerical order
    Flo had a great instrument for harmonizing but little talent as a soloist. This is why no one at Motown used her at the label or after. Mary created this Aretha-esque myth to formulate martyrdom for both Flo and herself. It worked in that it put her name on the map after a decade of solo struggle, but still couldn't generate interest in a record deal or any kind of viable, continuing employment away from The Supremes. What Mary didn't say about Flo is that her big chance, her solo spotlight, her giant splash fresh from The Supremes was a disaster, she was dropped for lack of interest and ability and no one picked her up. I included the worst of her CD here, in order to be as objective as Mary was in her book, but no soloist worth her salt would cut crap like this on the biggest break of her career. I loved Flo in the group, and loved People when she did it because it was my dear Flo singing her solo - not because it was going to make Streisand slit her wrists. Play her tracks - you be the judge. Great thread!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6E8...DYpKqO&index=5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHD...DYpKqO&index=8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8GI...DYpKqO&index=9

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHIC...YpKqO&index=10

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I think it's Gladys hands down. Mary Wells was not versatile and had little range. Martha has a 5 octave range. Flo Ballard had a loud trilling vibrato but her vocalizing was generally wretched as you can see by her solo CD. It was not the best material, but her weak, awful vocals on most songs made them worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpbtLV3SDuc

    Flo had a great instrument for harmonizing but little talent as a soloist. This is why no one at Motown used her at the label or after. Mary created this Aretha-esque myth to formulate martyrdom for both Flo and herself. It worked in that it put her name on the map after a decade of solo struggle, but still couldn't generate interest in a record deal or any kind of viable, continuing employment away from The Supremes. What Mary didn't say about Flo is that her big chance, her solo spotlight, her giant splash fresh from The Supremes was a disaster, she was dropped for lack of interest and ability and no one picked her up. I included the worst of her CD here, in order to be as objective as Mary was in her book, but no soloist worth her salt would cut crap like this on the biggest break of her career. I loved Flo in the group, and loved People when she did it because it was my dear Flo singing her solo - not because it was going to make Streisand slit her wrists. Play her tracks - you be the judge. Great thread!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6E8...DYpKqO&index=5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHD...DYpKqO&index=8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8GI...DYpKqO&index=9

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHIC...YpKqO&index=10
    Many others have said the Florence Ballard had the best voice in the Supremes and one of the best around at that time. This includes Otis Williams, Marvin Gaye, Obie Benson, members of the Marvelettes, etc.,etc. Even Aretha held her in high esteem.


    Last edited by marv2; 01-26-2016 at 03:37 PM.

  20. #20
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    Geez how did Aretha manage to crossover??

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    YOU'RE ALL WRONG,THE STRONGEST FEMALE VOICE AT MOTOWN IN THE SIXTIES WAS MOTHER GORDY...[berry if I have to call you one more time to take this trash out,but ma I'm in the studio...don't let me come down there...aww ma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arr&bee View Post
    YOU'RE ALL WRONG,THE STRONGEST FEMALE VOICE AT MOTOWN IN THE SIXTIES WAS MOTHER GORDY...[berry if I have to call you one more time to take this trash out,but ma I'm in the studio...don't let me come down there...aww ma.
    hehehehehehehehehehehe......LOL!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Geez how did Aretha manage to crossover??
    She is super talented, super great! She did it on her own terms without some manager's directing everything she sang and did!

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Geez how did Aretha manage to crossover??
    If you go into how Columbia promoted her and Atlantic, there is a BIG difference. Columbia tried to make her a crossover star [[which was also Ree's intention). Atlantic had people cross over to Aretha. Plus that gritty soul sound pioneered by Otis Redding and Sam & Dave were in and Aretha had all the ranges in the world to make any song her own after Atlantic allowed her freedom to arrange and co-produce her sessions whereas most of the female artists at Motown were just simply not allowed to.

    Like I said, I think Gladys Knight was the only female artist in Motown allowed to have some sort of control of her own considering the Pips wouldn't allow Motown to dictate what they should do to be successful.

    But we're veering from the topic a little lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    If you go into how Columbia promoted her and Atlantic, there is a BIG difference. Columbia tried to make her a crossover star [[which was also Ree's intention). Atlantic had people cross over to Aretha. Plus that gritty soul sound pioneered by Otis Redding and Sam & Dave were in and Aretha had all the ranges in the world to make any song her own after Atlantic allowed her freedom to arrange and co-produce her sessions whereas most of the female artists at Motown were just simply not allowed to.

    Like I said, I think Gladys Knight was the only female artist in Motown allowed to have some sort of control of her own considering the Pips wouldn't allow Motown to dictate what they should do to be successful.

    But we're veering from the topic a little lol

    Gladys was no one's puppet.

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    ^ And Berry Gordy knew that as soon as negotiations were changed prior to them signing with Motown and Gladys' demand that the Andantes not be featured on any of their songs as they were fine enough doing their own background [[I think in Nitty Gritty, Gladys and Edward sang parts of the background in the bridge; same with Everybody Needs Love).

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    Veer on. I was being facetious as all that stuff per Diane having most commercial voice and soul singers like Aretha crossed over as could Florence! Anyone with talent singing HDH songs could cross over. Florence certainly could have done lead on you Keep Me hangin on and Mary on Where did Our love go and hit # 1. Didn't Gladys vote against going to Motown but pips outvoted her and then they got the heck out when they saw the writing on the wall!

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    ^ Yep. Bubba initially was with Gladys when Motown offered them a deal [[William & Edward were more anxious to join) but Bubba started thinking of how Motown could give them exposure so he changed his vote. Gladys made friends with the Motown artists after they signed but staff probably thought they were "troublemakers" due to them asking "too many questions" [[like how Brenda Holloway was treated since like Gladys, they were really outsiders though Gladys and the Pips felt more love in Detroit than Brenda, a Watts native, probably did).

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    I wonder how long after Diana had them kicked off that tour did they leave Motown?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    It really is hard to say given the framework in which the question is asked. To me, Motown was not producing records in the sixties that allowed female artists much freedom to expose and explore their talents fully. They were making in some cases catchy Pop & Soul tunes that were heavily produced.
    That is an excellent point. In very rare cases were artists permitted to "command" too much. Because these records were meant to cross over, vocal prowress almost had to be calculated in order to avoid being considered "racy."

    However, I think the artists that did display prowess did so not only in vocal strength, but phrasing, control, and in an ability to capture one's ear immediately. This would be my list, in no order:

    1) Mary Wells - One listen to "My Guy," particularly the end, and you can hear Mary's masterful control over each phrase, turning a soul number into a rather jazz-inspired performance with the little hiccups and subtle swing in her phrasing.

    2) Martha Reeves - It has been said that Martha's performance on "Dancing in the Street" was a result of frustration for having to re-do her take when the engineers forgot to record. In true gospel fashion, Martha grabs you instantaneously with a commanding herald and emphatic energy that swept a nation. Her performance is gutsy and deliciously soulful, but with a power so controlled that the power and soul in her voice managed to move even the most timid of white audiences. Undoubtedly underrated, her performance on "For Once in My Life" is statuesque and unearthly. Her hailing delivery as she marches through the final verse triumphantly brought down the house on both record and live performance.

    3) Florence Ballard - Ballard commanded listeners in a way like no other singer - through her backup vocals. What helped set the Supremes apart from other girl groups was Ballard's bell-like soprano. Her voice was a unique blend of operatic and gospel tones that gave their three-part harmony a velvety warm timbre. Even on lead, Ballard's abilities were quite varied. From the all-out gospel jubilation of "Ain't That Good News," to the poignant divinity of "Silent Night," to the subtly sensual softness of "People" [[ending in a soaring riff that could halt traffic), Ballard provided a sound unquestionably crucial in the sound of the Supremes.

    4) Gladys Knight - 'Sophisticated soul' is the best way to describe Knight's electric presence. Early on, Knight proved to be a vocal triple threat - soulful, emotive, and controlled. Even on fiery performances like "I Heard it Through the Grapevine," Knight was tasteful in how she "brought the church." In performance, her command of the song - and of the audience - is penetrating. On record, however, that energy and presence is just as palpable.

    5) Jean Terrell - Although Jean possessed a gospel-influenced ability to flourish a melody with spirited improvisation. Her greatest ability as a singer was her ability to command a song with great intimacy. Rather than belting out a song in traditional soul fashion, Jean would bring the song in, subtly shaping phrases in a hushed coo that brought audiences forward. Her ability to improvise a melody so masterfully made each Supremes performance a real treat - particularly on "Stoned Love," in which Mary and Cindy [[or Lynda) would joyfully ring out the chorus as Jean gradually built up an improvised countermelody until, in the song's finale, she matched and blended with her bandmates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I think it's Gladys hands down. Mary Wells was not versatile and had little range. Martha has a 5 octave range. Flo Ballard had a loud trilling vibrato but her vocalizing was generally wretched as you can see by her solo CD. It was not the best material, but her weak, awful vocals on most songs made them worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpbtLV3SDuc

    Flo had a great instrument for harmonizing but little talent as a soloist. This is why no one at Motown used her at the label or after. Mary created this Aretha-esque myth to formulate martyrdom for both Flo and herself. It worked in that it put her name on the map after a decade of solo struggle, but still couldn't generate interest in a record deal or any kind of viable, continuing employment away from The Supremes. What Mary didn't say about Flo is that her big chance, her solo spotlight, her giant splash fresh from The Supremes was a disaster, she was dropped for lack of interest and ability and no one picked her up. I included the worst of her CD here, in order to be as objective as Mary was in her book, but no soloist worth her salt would cut crap like this on the biggest break of her career. I loved Flo in the group, and loved People when she did it because it was my dear Flo singing her solo - not because it was going to make Streisand slit her wrists. Play her tracks - you be the judge. Great thread!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6E8...DYpKqO&index=5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHD...DYpKqO&index=8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8GI...DYpKqO&index=9

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHIC...YpKqO&index=10
    First, Florence was offered a deal to continue with Motown during her contractual negotiations in 1968. Florence turned it down and chose the deal that would screw her over.

    Secondly, I think you are being unrealistic about Florence's abilities. Whether or not you like her solo output is hardly grounds for being outright dismissive about her talents. The fact is that Florence had great potential. It is greatly demonstrated on tracks like "Ain't That Good News," "Silent Night," and "People." You must compare these efforts with her solo album. The stark comparison shows not a talentless lead singer, but a singer whose talents rusted from lack of confidence, neglect from solo opportunities, and her alcohol intake. It is not that her voice is bad on her solo efforts, rather it is the lackluster material and the awful production. Look at Diana. Her early stuff pre-WDOLG was ABYSSMAL. Chances are her voice helped prevent early success on the charts. But look how much grooming and training did for Diana. Post 1964, Florence received little to no training, her confidence dwindled, and her abilities were reduced to "oohs" and "ahhs." Her "shrill" soprano occurred occasionally, but when you compare it to the rest of her material it is simply not characteristic of her performances.

    I also must scoff at your insinuation that Mary Wells was not "versatile." Her phrasing was impeccable and her vocal presence outstanding. You also do not have to have range to be a commanding singer. Look at Billie Holiday. Or Bob Dylan. Range does not equate to prowess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I wonder how long after Diana had them kicked off that tour did they leave Motown?
    That was a real low quality move she made...............

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I think it's Gladys hands down. Mary Wells was not versatile and had little range. Martha has a 5 octave range. Flo Ballard had a loud trilling vibrato but her vocalizing was generally wretched as you can see by her solo CD. It was not the best material, but her weak, awful vocals on most songs made them worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpbtLV3SDuc

    Flo had a great instrument for harmonizing but little talent as a soloist. This is why no one at Motown used her at the label or after. Mary created this Aretha-esque myth to formulate martyrdom for both Flo and herself. It worked in that it put her name on the map after a decade of solo struggle, but still couldn't generate interest in a record deal or any kind of viable, continuing employment away from The Supremes. What Mary didn't say about Flo is that her big chance, her solo spotlight, her giant splash fresh from The Supremes was a disaster, she was dropped for lack of interest and ability and no one picked her up. I included the worst of her CD here, in order to be as objective as Mary was in her book, but no soloist worth her salt would cut crap like this on the biggest break of her career. I loved Flo in the group, and loved People when she did it because it was my dear Flo singing her solo - not because it was going to make Streisand slit her wrists. Play her tracks - you be the judge. Great thread!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6E8...DYpKqO&index=5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHD...DYpKqO&index=8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8GI...DYpKqO&index=9

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHIC...YpKqO&index=10

    You sound just like Supremester. Amazing............!

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I wonder how long after Diana had them kicked off that tour did they leave Motown?
    They were kicked off the tour in 1968, I believe. So roughly four years. I believe this was after their version of Grapevine peaked and they felt like second string acts again [[until the release of Nitty Gritty a year later).

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    They were kicked off the tour in 1968, I believe. So roughly four years. I believe this was after their version of Grapevine peaked and they felt like second string acts again [[until the release of Nitty Gritty a year later).
    We now know that "The Nitty Gritty" was even intended for Diana Ross & the Supremes. If Bubba had not spoken to Norman Whitfield, Gladys & the Pips may not have gotten the chance to record it.

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    ^ Yep. It's funny how fate plays its cards. Also DR&TS were in a downward spiral on the charts at the time after the departure of HDH. It's not surprising Berry probably tried to give Norman a stab at a Diana Ross track but Bubba Knight basically spoke up to have his group have the track and to say it paid off says a lot. Also not disputed: by 1969, Gladys Knight & The Pips and The Temptations were the consistent hit-making groups of Motown at the end of the decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    You sound just like Supremester. Amazing............!
    I Second That Emotion! Reinvention is quite an art form around these here parts buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post



    I Second That Emotion! Reinvention is quite an art form around these here parts buddy.
    I guess.....................

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    ^ Yep. It's funny how fate plays its cards. Also DR&TS were in a downward spiral on the charts at the time after the departure of HDH. It's not surprising Berry probably tried to give Norman a stab at a Diana Ross track but Bubba Knight basically spoke up to have his group have the track and to say it paid off says a lot. Also not disputed: by 1969, Gladys Knight & The Pips and The Temptations were the consistent hit-making groups of Motown at the end of the decade.
    It also adds credence to the "Motown Assembly Line" story. It shows that many of the songs could have hits on just about anyone. The producers and the musicians deserve far more credit than they ever got. Commercial voice? LOL!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    They were kicked off the tour in 1968, I believe. So roughly four years. I believe this was after their version of Grapevine peaked and they felt like second string acts again [[until the release of Nitty Gritty a year later).
    The sad part about it all is that no where else at that time would Gladys Knight and the Pips been made to feel like a second string act.

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    I understand there are many opinions and none are correct [[as they ARE opinions, after all) and I'm sure there are people who felt Flo had the best voice, but what Otis thinks means nothing to me and I do not believe Aretha said as much. In the only interview I've seen where she addresses the subject, she said, "I saw them before they hit and thought to myself that the one in the middle had something.....that she would probably get somewhere." Big deal also. Who cares what Aretha thinks? I'm not gonna put banana syrup on my chicken n waffles because she does, either. I still heartily believe Mary made the case for Flo in her book to pursue her agenda and it worked: it brought her national fame and exposure she had not seen 1% of as a solo, or in the prior fifteen years period. Mary neglected to mention that HDH, who knew Flo's voice better than almost anyone and left Motown at the same time, chose not to work with her before and after ABC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Geez how did Aretha manage to crossover??
    Geez..........maybe after 7 years of no hits but a lot of exposure, Jerry Wexler snatched her up, totally changed her focus and style and got her new A&R peeps to help create The Queen of Soul who, IS greatly talented and deserves all accolades due her. Without Jerry Wexler, we might very well be remembering Aretha as the big voice with a top 40 hit of Rockabye and debating if she had the goods to be bigger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    ^ And Berry Gordy knew that as soon as negotiations were changed prior to them signing with Motown and Gladys' demand that the Andantes not be featured on any of their songs as they were fine enough doing their own background [[I think in Nitty Gritty, Gladys and Edward sang parts of the background in the bridge; same with Everybody Needs Love).
    Fascinating. I didn't know that. Good for her and us! The Pips' bg vocals are always superb and especially on the ones you mentioned and Grapevine. Were The Andantes mentioned in the contract originally, or did Gladys address the subject herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    You sound just like Supremester. Amazing............!
    If anything, Suprenester sounds like ME!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Fascinating. I didn't know that. Good for her and us! The Pips' bg vocals are always superb and especially on the ones you mentioned and Grapevine. Were The Andantes mentioned in the contract originally, or did Gladys address the subject herself.
    It was the latter, I believe. Bubba Knight explained it in his 2014 interview with Tom Morse [[I think that's his name). He claimed after they made that demand, Motown staff thought they were "rebels" and "troublemakers".

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    If you're talking of commanding voices, it has to be Kim Weston. Just listen to "It Takes Two" and you'll hear that Kim was well in charge of Marvin Gaye on that one.

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    Thanks! So far, this discussion has been lively and informative. Given that 1960s Motown was about pop crossover I did have the sense that the ladies of Motown were not showcased in a way that would have demonstrated the full range of their vocal talent.

    "Motown The Musical" portrays Mary Wells as a roof-raising vocalist whose vocal power had to be reined in. I also know of Kim Weston's post-Motown recordings where her vocals [[but not the material) were even more impressive than in her Motown years. All these years later, these ladies are little-known in popular culture. I was curious about whether Motown was home to any truly outstanding female vocal talent [[besides Gladys) that ranked alongside Aretha, Tina, Patti, Merry Clayton or any of the other vocal legends of pop, soul or R&B.

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    On unique, pure and raw vocal talent it surely has to be Gladys Knight. Pit her against any of the great Motown ladies in a live vocal contest and she would beat them all hands down every time. Diana has the most commercial sounding voice. I have never felt that Florence was that great a singer. It is always commented that she had a loud voice. Does that mean great?? IMO Mary has and had a far more distinctive sound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I understand there are many opinions and none are correct [[as they ARE opinions, after all) and I'm sure there are people who felt Flo had the best voice, but what Otis thinks means nothing to me and I do not believe Aretha said as much. In the only interview I've seen where she addresses the subject, she said, "I saw them before they hit and thought to myself that the one in the middle had something.....that she would probably get somewhere." Big deal also. Who cares what Aretha thinks? I'm not gonna put banana syrup on my chicken n waffles because she does, either. I still heartily believe Mary made the case for Flo in her book to pursue her agenda and it worked: it brought her national fame and exposure she had not seen 1% of as a solo, or in the prior fifteen years period. Mary neglected to mention that HDH, who knew Flo's voice better than almost anyone and left Motown at the same time, chose not to work with her before and after ABC.
    Regarding Aretha Franklin, I was referring to the telegram she sent and had read at Florence Ballard's funeral at Bethel AME Church in Detroit. Her father, the Reverend C.L. Franklin officiated and read Aretha's remarks about Florence to the congregation. So it does not matter what you believe. Everyone in Detroit that was around them, the Primettes during those days said that Florence had the best voice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    On unique, pure and raw vocal talent it surely has to be Gladys Knight. Pit her against any of the great Motown ladies in a live vocal contest and she would beat them all hands down every time. Diana has the most commercial sounding voice. I have never felt that Florence was that great a singer. It is always commented that she had a loud voice. Does that mean great?? IMO Mary has and had a far more distinctive sound.

    I always wanted to know. When you say "commercial voice" what exactly do you mean or what does that mean to you? To me, commercial meant that it sold with the public. Gladys Knight and Aretha Franklin sold millions of records and they sound nothing like Diana Ross.

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