Nothing But Heartaches..what happened?

**luke** · 01-20-2016, 12:12 PM

Of course # 11 is good but after 5# 1s a let down. It zoomed up the charts and then stalled. Supremes burnout or not a great record? I think the latter mostly. Doesn't really tell much of a story as Berry would urge and sounds like a rush job. Tempo doesn't rally match lyrics..kind of happy go lucky like the Happening. Diana sounds preoccupied. Your thoughts?

**theboyfromxtown** · 01-20-2016, 12:53 PM

Loved it. It was bouncy and great to dance to at the time.

I still love it.

**midnightman** · 01-20-2016, 12:55 PM

Motown failed to push it higher imo.

**luke** · 01-20-2016, 01:07 PM

Do you hunk Motown just thought it would automatically hit # 1 like the previous 5 and not really push it?

**midnightman** · 01-20-2016, 01:25 PM

Motown surely misguided its promotion, that's why they pushed hard for I Hear a Symphony.

**motony** · 01-20-2016, 01:55 PM

I think it was released too soon after "Back In My Arms Again" and you would have to see what the other top ten hits were at the same time.

**florence** · 01-20-2016, 02:21 PM

Sounded to me very much like Back In My Arms Again Pt II although similar sounding follow-ups were more readily accepted in the 60s.

It did make #8 on Cashbox but there was tough competition at the time including The Beatles and The Beach Boys. It was even headed by The Four Tops' It's The Same Old Song.

Not sure that Mother Dear which was the initial choice as the follow-up to Arms would have fared any better.

**jobeterob** · 01-20-2016, 02:49 PM

I think it was a great song.

They were churning out a lot of material, perhaps a bit too much. When you have "ultra" success, there comes a stage where the public just gets a little bit tired of the same thing. They got tired of Whitney Houston in the 90's as well.

I think the promotion was there as well.

Stop in the Name of Love was such a massive hit; Where Did Our Love Go and Baby Love were such massive hits. They couldn't all be massive.

#11 is a huge hit, just not for the Supremes. Any Supreme other than Diana would have gone google eyed to have a #11 Top 100 Hit.

But when you were Diana Ross or Diana Ross and the Supremes, that is not considered a big hit.

**bradsupremes** · 01-20-2016, 03:06 PM

This was discussed before and it was a matter of a few things. First, Motown got into the belief the Supremes were constantly going to score number ones. I think they fell into a "too safe" mode and perhaps didn't it the extra push it needed. Second, the formula was growing tired. HDH had to change it up and they did with "I Hear A Symphony." Third, look at the top 10 the week "Nothing But Heartaches" charted at #11. It's quite a packed top 10 with many classic hits we know today. Had the song dropped a week before or a week later, who knows. Maybe it would have cracked the top 10, but it was stiff competition.

In my opinion, "Nothing But Heartaches" is a great song. I just don't think it had the hook to make it number one like the previous hits.

**144man** · 01-20-2016, 03:09 PM

I think it was a great record with an instantly memorable tune. However, it might have fared better if the alternative version with the instrumental break had been released instead.

Last time we discussed this topic, the exceptionally high quality of the ten records stopping it from getting any higher was mentioned.

**TheMotownManiac** · 01-20-2016, 03:40 PM

It had absolutely nothing to do with promotion - HDH said as much. They did it on TV, had a natural spot on the playlists and got huge initial airplay - it just didn't respond to the buyers like the others. Promotion guarantees nothing - it can only get a song played but the public decides what it wants to buy. It was "somewhat" similar to BIMAA in pace, but only in pace. I think three things held it back.
1) The melody line of the verse is practically non existent - if it wasn't for Ross' superb vocal breathing life into it, it would have never seen #11.
2) More Hits was issued just a few days after and the LP sales surely hurt the momentum the 45 would have had if it had 4-6 weeks lead time.
3) The word "heartaches" does not resonate with the vernacular of the peasantry as it were. No race, creed, color, socio-economic background used that word.

I loved it instantly and still do, however I have several friends who always thought it was just "ok" but I don't know anyone who thinks Mother Dear would have hit harder or at all. Maybe Honey Boy or Whisper but definitely not Mother Dear - the title alone would scare off the average teenager. The last thing teens want to think about id their mothers.

I think it's just one of those mysteries - like Wild One tanking after Dancing In the Street. Sure it's not AS good, but not even top 30?

RossHolloway · 01-20-2016, 04:23 PM

Well its one of my favorite songs by the group and Ross gives another of her classic performances. But 50 years later who really cares how it charted, the very fact that we're discussing this 50 YEAR OLD SONG says something about it. Plus didn't someone also mention the fact that the group did not sing the song on Ed Sullivan but instead in the run up to their Copa engagement they performed standards instead.

**sup_fan** · 01-20-2016, 04:24 PM

also apparently when the girls appeared for the 2nd time on Ed Sullivan they were to perform Nothing But Heartaches and You're Nobody Till Somebody Loves You. when time constraints limited the group to only doing 1 song, Gordy opted to cut Nothing But Heartaches. this definitely meant a significant reduction in national exposure. But he was so focused on making the girls appear as all-around entertainers.

it's certainly debatable that even with the exposure it might not have gone #1. I agree with the above in that the song wasn't really anything new or exciting. WDOLG was something totally new and different. Baby Love and Come See were similar enough but helped further develop the WDOLG sound. Stop was similar but HDH helped expand the sound with a fuller production. Back in My Arms is pure on classic Motown. But by Nothing, it wasn't as fresh or as new. Symphony was Motown but with heavy strings and symphonic production, key changes and all.

I don't think Mother Dear would have done much differently. IMO I like the last, faster version the best.

**luke** · 01-20-2016, 04:25 PM

I agree with a lot of what you said Maniac though to me it's not one of Ross' best performances but also perhaps cause I think it just "ok". Sounds generic to me tho I did like it right away it didn't stay with me like their first 5 numbers ones and then Symphony etc. Same for Wild One. Like it at first then it faded.

**BayouMotownMan** · 01-20-2016, 05:35 PM

This remains one of my most played recordings by any artist. I was heartsick when it crashed.

I think the problem was the mixing. The original mono mix is quite muddy sounding. Perhaps as someone said, the teen heartbreak theme was getting old and the girls were now 21 and 22 yrs old. The background vocals were some of the best with Flo and Mary leading Diana into the chorus [[He brings...) rather than following her. Had the group not had five NO. 1's this would not have been considered a failure. Also consider the More Hits lp was issued at the same time as the single. Some, like myself, just bought the whole album to get the song.

It was only on Billboard that the song didn't crack the top ten. Other charts had it firmly into the bottom reaches of the Top 10. It was a hit.

**luke** · 01-20-2016, 05:54 PM

Good post sup_fan. I'm sure an Ed Sullivan performance would've increased sales

**Methuselah2** · 01-20-2016, 06:25 PM

I've often heard mention of the similarity between NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES and BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN--but it's one I've never heard myself. To my ear, it sounded like a complete departure from the previous five singles of The Supremes. And it sounded like that to my feet, too! Very danceable--something that I thought was never quite there in the prior five recordings [[and returned only once more--for me, that is--with LOVE IS LIKE AN ITCHING IN MY HEART). NOTHING also had a hard-driving beat and a certain vitality to its orchestration that added power and punch to Supremes' music that I hadn't heard since WHEN THE LOVELIGHT STARTS SHINING THROUGH HIS EYES. Perhaps it wasn't something that some expected at this point--nor, perhaps, wanted. But I certainly wanted it, and how!

How much any of this actually affected sales is impossible for me to say. But I think the visual aspect of The Supremes is one that can't be ignored, and I've always felt their performance of NOTHING on Hullabaloo was a bit lackluster--except for the nice back-drop blow-up of the MORE HITS album cover, the routine--as much as I still like it--was a bit ho-hum. Especially coming just a few months after doing the beautifully stylized BACK...ARMS with Diana leading its opening soulful soft-shoe step and Florence and Mary's surprising fluttering of their hands as they shimmied their bodies downward. That great routine added a lot of snap--but there was nothing memorable like that in the NOTHING routine. What was most memorable about that one was that it had Florence and Mary repeating the hands-clasped-together-with-a-switch-from-side-to-side move that they had done earlier that year--and also on Hullabaloo--in COME SEE ABOUT ME. [[And I don't mean memorable in a good way.) As much as I still enjoy their NOTHING routine, I don't think there was anything about it to push anyone who may have been 'on the fence' about the recording into the record store.

Lots of interesting comments throughout this thread. Glad that Theboyfromxtown brought up dancing to NBH and also The MotownManiac's referencing how the MORE HITS album release may have impacted NBH's sales.

**marv2** · 01-20-2016, 06:45 PM

It was a good song. Sounded almost like a march. I did not care for the intro though.

**antceleb12** · 01-20-2016, 06:56 PM

I've always hated it. One of my least favorite Supremes songs. I don't think it was real melodic, nor does it have a hook that's instantly attention-grabbing. On first listen I think its very forgettable, and if it doesn't catch you the first listen its hard to catch on.

**bradsupremes** · 01-20-2016, 07:26 PM

I might add the live version of "Nothing But Heartaches" was lackluster. Diana seemed like she couldn't stay on top of the song. Maybe it was the arrangement itself. Never cared for the trumpet intro on it as compared to the studio version intro with guitars.

Here's the top 10 songs during the week of September 4, 1965:
01.) Help! - The Beatles
02.) Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan
03.) California Girls - The Beach Boys
04.) Unchained Melody - The Righteous Brothers
05.) It's The Same Old Song - The Four Tops
06.) I Got You Babe - Sonny & Cher
07.) You Were On My Mind - We Five
08.) Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown
09.) Eve Of Destruction - Barry McGuire
10.) Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me - Mel Carter
AND
11.) Nothing But Heartaches - The Supremes

Looking at that top 5, "Nothing But Heartaches" would have had a very hard time to break through those. Those are solid hits. Had the song been released a few weeks prior, I think it could have broke into the top 10.

**BayouMotownMan** · 01-20-2016, 07:55 PM

Did anybody do a cover of NBH? I never heard one. Tons of their material has been covered or sampled, even No Matter What Sign You Are

**TheMotownManiac** · 01-20-2016, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

It was a good song. Sounded almost like a march. I did not care for the intro though.

I agree about the intro - it sounds like they couldn't think of anything and it was going out the door that minute. It was the first Supremes hit to not have a fab intro

**captainjames** · 01-21-2016, 10:25 AM

I loved it and it is still one of my favorite Supreme songs - Flo looked so happy here in this performance. Mary was pretty as ever and Diana was just awesome.

**luke** · 01-21-2016, 11:41 AM

Yes flo should did look happy and relaxed..maybe cause she could really be heard..as loud or louder than Diana whose vocals seemed mixed back. Was this all lysincing to record? It didn't make me appreciate song any more though.

**Glenpwood** · 01-21-2016, 12:04 PM

Here's a thread from a few years back that puts Nothing But heartaches into context with the records it was competing with during its chart run...

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread...ht=destruction

I really like the song but I think HDH went back to the same well too many times. They shifted gears for I Hear A Symphony and things returned to normal chartwise. An #11 peaking single is still a major accomplishment and was still a hit in those days. Its a shame Billboard never saved their raw data for compiling their charts as a #11 one week could mean top five the next. Its kind of like how the "At The Copa" album peaked at #11 during the 1965 Holiday season yet would have easily been a top ten album if it had come out in January 1966 instead. It certainly sold better and charted longer than a couple of the albums that initially surpassed it to the top ten in those days....

**Bluebrock** · 01-21-2016, 12:09 PM

I far preferred "nbh" to certain other Supremes tunes such "love is like an itching in my heart" and "back in my arms again". Just my opinion.

**marybrewster** · 01-21-2016, 12:19 PM

Unlike many of the other Supremes hits, it doesn't seem like this packed the punch in the first few bars like many of the others. "Baby Love", "WDOLG" or "Stop!" instantly sucks you in.

**Bluebrock** · 01-21-2016, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by marybrewster

Unlike many of the other Supremes hits, it doesn't seem like this packed the punch in the first few bars like many of the others. "Baby Love", "WDOLG" or "Stop!" instantly sucks you in.

You must be correct because it did nowhere near as well as the previous 5 but I still love it. Always have and always will.

**daviddh** · 01-21-2016, 07:09 PM

Loved it. think the song was great and has held up well. but I think the song missed, if you want to call it that, because Motown didn't know what to release, either Mother Dear or Heartaches. I think the Supremes only performed it once or twice.... and they performed Mother Dear twice. I think this created confusion among fans and possibly programmers. I still feel if those other two performances were actually 'Heartaches ' it would have given the song the push it needed, but to be fair I also feel Motown was busy promoting Copa performances as I think a lot was happening with the Supremes at the time .....between the copa shows, the release of More Hits...and Heartaches among other events

**daviddh** · 01-21-2016, 07:14 PM

last thought, this song was the first to not have Baby Baby Ohh Ohh.....Baby....it was more soulful , but I do think it had a good dance feel.....the Funk Bros was working this!!!!

have you listened to the alt version from the More Hits deluxe version

**daviddh** · 01-21-2016, 07:23 PM

the song sold like 700,000 copies , so to me that's a hit

**Jimi LaLumia** · 01-21-2016, 08:03 PM

the hook for the title wasn't as strong as the title hooks for Stop, Where, Come, Baby and Back..it just wasn't.. the hook for the title was back to full strength with Symphony.. I liked Heartaches cos i was a dyed in the wool Supremester but this was too frantic/ hectic for the average Top 40 crowd to bring it all the way

**jobeterob** · 01-21-2016, 08:43 PM

There are two Supremes that aged well, that weren't monster hits, that are favorites for some fans, that are better than some of the Monster Hits ~ Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart and Nothing But Heartaches.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 01-21-2016, 08:47 PM

Itching is and always was my all time favorite [["Go, Mary!", which may have been the pre birth of "Go Girl! a decade or so later..)

**luke** · 01-21-2016, 08:49 PM

I so agree with Itching. But I find Nothing but..lackluster

**midnightman** · 01-22-2016, 04:20 AM

I'm shocked "Itching" wasn't a bigger hit either. That song is smokin' to this day!

**lockhartgary** · 01-22-2016, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by midnightman

I'm shocked "Itching" wasn't a bigger hit either. That song is smokin' to this day!

So much so that I could listen to just the backing track and STILL enjoy it very much!

**midnightman** · 01-22-2016, 12:07 PM

^ Right. The Funk Brothers amp up the FUNK in that song for real! Don't let anyone tell you the "posh" original Supremes didn't get down! LOL

**luke** · 01-22-2016, 12:17 PM

they sure did and also in Going Down for the third time. I think the public was thrown by their gettin down!!

**midnightman** · 01-22-2016, 12:23 PM

^ Yeah. Even now, people are like "I didn't know the Supremes could get down like that!" Lol

**Methuselah2** · 01-22-2016, 02:49 PM

Motown Junkies' interesting analysis of NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES:

http://motownjunkies.co.uk/2013/04/27/611/

RossHolloway · 01-22-2016, 03:22 PM

I think way too many folks have gotten caught up on the chart position of the song, instead of the stand alone merits of the song. But also look at the chart position of many "Classic Motown" songs that did not make the Top 10 but are still know the world over. Ain't No Mountain HIgh Enough by Marvin and Tammi peaked barely inside the Top 20, but I doubt anyone would say that it was a flop or a bad song. Same goes for Baby, I Need Your Loving, Get Ready, or The Tracks of My Tears. I mean how bad or terrible of a song could it have been if we're still talking about it nearly 51 years AFTER it was released. #MuchToDoAboutNothingButHeartaches

**jobeterob** · 01-22-2016, 07:30 PM

Some of the biggest sales hits didn't have the highest chart positions.

As has been pointed out, Billboard mixed sales and airplay; the other magazines didn't and it seems that several Motown songs fared better at sales than airplay.

There were separate airplay and sales charts in Billboard for a while and right down to Missing You, Ross sales were significantly better than airplay.

**antceleb12** · 01-22-2016, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by luke

they sure did and also in Going Down for the third time. I think the public was thrown by their gettin down!!

That is a song that definitely should have gotten A-side treatment! Still one of my all-time favorite Supremes songs.

**Methuselah2** · 01-22-2016, 08:46 PM

Berry Gordy's mandate to his staff about releasing only #1s on The Supremes has always left me scratching my head. Perhaps he forgot one thing: He didn't send it to the public, as well. It was impossible to accomplish and certainly impossible to ask of writers and producers. What happened with NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES was merely the inevitable. And a reminder of how things can actually turn out no matter what you do. You can go for '#1 with a bullet' but you sure can't always call the shots.

One more head-scratching issue regarding NOTHING: Its 45rpm sleeve. It was just a rehash of the one that had accompanied BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN. Always left me thinking: Whose idea was that? OK, yes, I admit sleeves are not a big deal. But in this case, the rehashed sleeve seemed very peculiar to have done. And then, of course, it appeared one more time--to best effect, I'd say, where it should only have appeared--as the MORE HITS album cover. But the overuse was hard to figure out at the time. Almost like an attempt at branding, maybe. Or expediency, perhaps. But I didn't really get it.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 01-23-2016, 01:51 AM

I loved "Nothing But Heartaches" from the start, but the track that really blew me away from the first listen on "More Hits By The Supremes" was "Mother Dear". The uptempo shuffle beat and the baritone sax were hot, as was the sizzling mix which really cooked and jumped out at you. The fast tempo was exciting to me, and it contrasted the girls' first five hits perfectly. [[In the context in which it was used, the word 'Mother' in the song's title didn't bother me, as Diana was singing about her untrue boyfriend, not her mother.) I can see why Motown considered it for single release. God knows, I played that album track over and over upon its release.

I personally love the mono version of "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart". Even the grooves on the 45 spiraled toward the center as the record spun. That's how HOT that track was cut! Even better is the extended version of "Itching" with the handclaps contained in The Supremes' 12" Single "Medley".

I, too, love Martha & The Vandellas' "Wild One". It deserved to be a much bigger hit than it was.

**detmotownguy** · 01-23-2016, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by luke

I so agree with Itching. But I find Nothing but..lackluster

Itching was the best, always like the rock edge of that song. Diane did a gr8 job on that song.

**detmotownguy** · 01-23-2016, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

I loved "Nothing But Heartaches" from the start, but the track that really blew me away from the first listen on "More Hits By The Supremes" was "Mother Dear". The uptempo shuffle beat and the baritone sax were hot, and so was the mix. It creally cooked, and it contrasted the girls' first five hits perfectly. In the context in which it was used, the title of the track didn't bother me. I can see why Motown considered it for single release. God knows, I played the album track over and over upon release.

I personally love the mono version of "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart". Even the grooves on the 45 spiraled toward the center as the record spun. That's how HOT that track was cut! Even better is the extended version of "Itching" with the handclaps contained in The Supremes' 12" Single "Medley".

I, too, love Martha & The Vandellas' "Wild One". It deserved to be a much bigger hit than it was.

yes yes yea on the Itching 12". U talking the Superstar Series? I have to pull that out when I have to do interior painting. The only thing that motovates me.

**detmotownguy** · 01-23-2016, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by Methuselah2

Berry Gordy's mandate to his staff about releasing only #1s on The Supremes has always left me scratching my head. Perhaps he forgot one thing: He didn't send it to the public, as well. It was impossible to accomplish and certainly impossible to ask of writers and producers. What happened with NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES was merely the inevitable. And a reminder of how things can actually turn out no matter what you do. You can go for '#1 with a bullet' but you sure can't always call the shots.

One more head-scratching issue regarding NOTHING: Its 45rpm sleeve. It was just a rehash of the one that had accompanied BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN. Always left me thinking: Who's idea was that? OK, yes, I admit sleeves are not a big deal. But in this case, the rehashed sleeve seemed very peculiar to have done. And then, of course, it appeared one more time--to best effect, I'd say, where it should only have appeared--as the MORE HITS album cover. But the overuse was hard to figure out at the time. Almost like an attempt at branding, maybe. Or expediency, perhaps. But I didn't really get it.

Was it a case of over confidence? I always skipped over it as i thought it was kind of boring. But then again someone said it sold 700k copies sonwhat do I know.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 01-23-2016, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by detmotownguy

yes yes yea on the Itching 12". U talking the Superstar Series? I have to pull that out when I have to do interior painting. The only thing that motovates me.

Yes, Sir! That's the one!