Florence Ballard [[of The Supremes) - "O' Holy Night" [Rare/Previously Unreleased]

**marv2** · 12-06-2015, 10:04 PM

This is what Christmas is about to me........

**BigAl** · 12-08-2015, 03:45 PM

Every time I listen to this, I can hear so plainly the trepidation in her voice. There's a hesitancy there. I suspect she was nervous, as by this time she almost always was, when she had a lead or a solo to do — unlike a few years before when she wasn't so beaten down.

It's rather sad to hear how her otherwise amazing voice was tempered by what could only be a lack of self-confidence here. Even though she hit all those high notes beautifully, you can hear this apprehension if you listen.

I can see why her two Xmas tracks didn't make the final cut. Not only would it have confused listeners used to hearing only Diane out in front, but it would also probably have done Florence a disservice [[although I imagine that had no particular bearing on the decision to leave her leads off the album).

**marv2** · 12-08-2015, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by BigAl

Every time I listen to this, I can hear so plainly the trepidation in her voice. There's a hesitancy there. I suspect she was nervous, as by this time she almost always was, when she had a lead or a solo to do — unlike a few years before when she wasn't so beaten down.

It's rather sad to hear how her otherwise amazing voice was tempered by what could only be a lack of self-confidence here. Even though she hit all those high notes beautifully, you can hear this apprehension if you listen.

I can see why her two Xmas tracks didn't make the final cut. Not only would it have confused listeners used to hearing only Diane out in front, but it would also probably have done Florence a disservice [[although I imagine that had no particular bearing on the decision to leave her leads off the album).

They were crazy to leave those two songs off. Everyone at that time in 1965 knew they were a group. They may or may not have known their individual names, but they were always known as a group and as such you would expect to hear the others sing the lead from time to time. There was some serious mess going on at Motown at that time and I knew it the first time I heard Flo's "Silent Night" during Christmas 1995 some 30 years after she recorded it at Motown!

**luke** · 12-08-2015, 06:44 PM

Simply magnificent. When she hit the final night Devine I thought it was Aretha. Motown should be ashamed of themselves for not releasing this. Who produced it? I forget.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 12-08-2015, 06:48 PM

I don't think Florence had gone sour in 1965 already did she?

**antceleb12** · 12-08-2015, 07:22 PM

I love her on this, but it is waaayyyy too slow. In the time it took to get out one verse she could have gotten two in. Still, she shines!

**jillfoster** · 12-08-2015, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by antceleb12

I love her on this, but it is waaayyyy too slow. In the time it took to get out one verse she could have gotten two in. Still, she shines!

The song was originally written in 4/4 , although some make it faster and do it in 6/8.

**marv2** · 12-08-2015, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Simply magnificent. When she hit the final night Devine I thought it was Aretha. Motown should be ashamed of themselves for not releasing this. Who produced it? I forget.

Harvey Fuqua. That they left this song off the album? Unbelievable!

**jillfoster** · 12-08-2015, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by BigAl

Every time I listen to this, I can hear so plainly the trepidation in her voice. There's a hesitancy there. I suspect she was nervous, as by this time she almost always was, when she had a lead or a solo to do — unlike a few years before when she wasn't so beaten down.

It's rather sad to hear how her otherwise amazing voice was tempered by what could only be a lack of self-confidence here. Even though she hit all those high notes beautifully, you can hear this apprehension if you listen.

I can see why her two Xmas tracks didn't make the final cut. Not only would it have confused listeners used to hearing only Diane out in front, but it would also probably have done Florence a disservice [[although I imagine that had no particular bearing on the decision to leave her leads off the album).

Why would it have confused listeners who had most likely bought "We Remember Sam Cooke" just months before? That version that was posted is a "mix" of the two vocal takes. The second vocal take just released last week is more polished and confident all the way through.

**marv2** · 12-08-2015, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by jillfoster

Why would it have confused listeners who had most likely bought "We Remember Sam Cooke" just months before? That version that was posted is a "mix" of the two vocal takes. The second vocal take just released last week is more polished and confident all the way through.

I can easily picture Florence singing Opera with the right training.

**luke** · 12-08-2015, 11:27 PM

It sure makes her frustration sooo understandable.

**marv2** · 12-08-2015, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by luke

It sure makes her frustration sooo understandable.

It was totally understandable which is why people still talk about her today. Her story , her life has influenced a lot of people. I was a teenager when she died [[I'll never forget that night it came over the local Detroit news...). In school it felt like a relative had died to everyone.

**Bluebrock** · 12-09-2015, 06:12 AM

It was left out because Berry Gordy wanted Diana to lead on all the tracks. By this time his focus was purely on Diana. It could not have been left off because it wasn't strong enough to be included. Even the most deluded Diana fan would have to acknowledge that.

**BigAl** · 12-09-2015, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

I don't think Florence had gone sour in 1965 already did she?

By all accounts, she was starting to have difficulty even then. The 1965 "People" issue seemed to be the beginning. Much has been written about this. Some accounts say that she was not feeling well and felt her voice wouldn't hold up for the lead; others say that she was flat-out scared that she'd mess up and thus declined to do it for that reason. Still other accounts maintain that the lead was simply taken from her for the run of the gig. [[When I saw them in '66, she was again doing the lead on two verses and the coda at the end.) In any event, something happened and apparently served to chip away at her self-confidence as early as 1965.

**marv2** · 12-09-2015, 09:43 AM

The company destroyed her self-confidence, "they"destroyed it on purpose and you know what I mean! They were doing it to Mary too by telling her she couldn't sing! This is not a mystery. What was happening to Florence? It was done on purpose to keep her in line, in the background and her in place!

**Bluebrock** · 12-09-2015, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

The company destroyed her self-confidence, "they"destroyed it on purpose and you know what I mean! They were doing it to Mary too by telling her she couldn't sing! This is not a mystery. What was happening to Florence? It was done on purpose to keep her in line, in the background and her in place!

Marv - We have been known to have the odd disagreement in the past but I am with you all the way on this one. It doesn't matter how we try to sweeten this bitter pill that's the way it was. I am not saying that Florence was totally blameless but greater powers were at work to ensure she stayed in the background and that is a fact.

honest man · 12-09-2015, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

This is what Christmas is about to me........

https://youtu.be/OUcReuw-mwA NAAAAAAAAAAAAA This is what xmas about, the Florence effort would have some people grab the noose give me Bobby Vinton's version anytime,Merry Christmas folks.

**marv2** · 12-09-2015, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Marv - We have been known to have the odd disagreement in the past but I am with you all the way on this one. It doesn't matter how we try to sweeten this bitter pill that's the way it was. I am not saying that Florence was totally blameless but greater powers were at work to ensure she stayed in the background and that is a fact.

It is just the truth!

**luke** · 12-09-2015, 05:13 PM

Exactly. They just could have been kinder and given Flo and Mary occasional leads. Would have meant the world to them. So unfortunate.

**marv2** · 12-09-2015, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Exactly. They just could have been kinder and given Flo and Mary occasional leads. Would have meant the world to them. So unfortunate.

Which is one of the reasons I cannot sit through a complete Supremes album these days. I can't listen to the same voice over and over on songs that does not suit her at all.

honest man · 12-09-2015, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Which is one of the reasons I cannot sit through a complete Supremes album these days. I can't listen to the same voice over and over on songs that does not suit her at all.

Really, not many complete Supremes albums to listen to these days now that it has been disclosed mainly Diana Ross and the Andantes recordings ,cheers love this xmas song from the grouping take a listen https://youtu.be/Kbn2xYP1OIQ

**skooldem1** · 12-09-2015, 07:04 PM

It is possible that these songs were not originally on the album, because they didn't sound like "The Motown Sound". When you heard a Christmas song by Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder, etc. it sounded like a Motown record. Although Florence sounded lovely, there was nothing about the arrangement of the song, or her vocals that sounded the "Sound of young America".

**marv2** · 12-09-2015, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by honest man

Really, not many complete Supremes albums to listen to these days now that it has been disclosed mainly Diana Ross and the Andantes recordings ,cheers love this xmas song from the grouping take a listen https://youtu.be/Kbn2xYP1OIQ

I can't listen to that stuff either. How's that?

**luke** · 12-09-2015, 08:11 PM

I find the Diana and andantes stuff much less listenable. Sounds like a thousand other songs...no distinctiveness Flo and Mary were 2/3 of the Supremes with their very distinctive voices and harmonies. Didn't Berry say groups are the sum of its parts?

**marv2** · 12-09-2015, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by luke

I find the Diana and andantes stuff much less listenable. Sounds like a thousand other songs...no distinctiveness Flo and Mary were 2/3 of the Supremes with their very distinctive voices and harmonies. Didn't Berry say groups are the sum of its parts?

He said that.........

**luke** · 12-10-2015, 02:26 PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8b9UqZlZxxs Silent Night. What an amaIngly pure voice she had.

**marv2** · 12-10-2015, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by luke

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8b9UqZlZxxs Silent Night. What an amaIngly pure voice she had.

I love that version so much.

**marv2** · 12-10-2015, 05:59 PM

Just in case you want to listen to this gem right here:

**Jimi LaLumia** · 12-10-2015, 07:08 PM

I'm not even getting into any of this... not again..
but Ross , obviously with the girls blessings, did the leads on the no hits Meet the Supremes album , and the leads on the Where Did Our love Go album, before anyone knew how big that album would become , and I don't remember stories of in fighting..only after the Ross hits kept coming did the other stuff start apparently, and either way, what's done is done and IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON!

**marv2** · 12-10-2015, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

I'm not even getting into any of this... not again..
but Ross , obviously with the girls blessings, did the leads on the no hits Meet the Supremes album , and the leads on the Where Did Our love Go album, before anyone knew how big that album would become , and I don't remember stories of in fighting..only after the Ross hits kept coming did the other stuff start apparently, and either way, what's done is done and IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON!

That's not even half the story. It was not only about who was singing lead. There was a lot of other nasty s$%t that was going on that is not talked about in general. But yes, "It's Time to Move On"! God will sort it.

**luke** · 12-10-2015, 08:29 PM

Thank Giod we have a few recordings that showcase Florence. Never heard a backup singer sing like this!!

**mysterysinger** · 12-11-2015, 09:55 AM

Wow - that is one of the best Motown Christmas versions ever. Magnificent from Florence.

**marv2** · 12-11-2015, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by mysterysinger

Wow - that is one of the best Motown Christmas versions ever. Magnificent from Florence.

Yet it took them 30 years to release it? [[recorded in 1965, first released in 1995!).

**luke** · 12-11-2015, 04:13 PM

It sure would have elevated the XMAS album.

**marv2** · 12-11-2015, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by luke

It sure would have elevated the XMAS album.

It sure would have because I have not seriously listen to the Merry Christmas album since i was a kid. Just a few cuts like "My Favorite Things". I also still believe I heard Mary and Flo on some of those songs like the Children's Christmas song.

**luke** · 12-11-2015, 11:58 PM

Me neither. I wonder what Motown would have done if she opted to stay with Motown ala David Ruffin. Hard to believe they would have done anything.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 12-12-2015, 09:32 AM

if she had stayed, chances are they wouldn't have needed Jean Terrell... the hard reality is that the successful image of The Supremes was not 'soulful', but very 'show bizzy' which apparently many folks [[including me) LIKED! I don't know that FLo had that element in her
enough to carry an entire show, and we now know that Jean was not about that at all.. Mary does have that component, God Bless her, but was not in the right space yet to step up.

**jillfoster** · 12-13-2015, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by skooldem1

It is possible that these songs were not originally on the album, because they didn't sound like "The Motown Sound". When you heard a Christmas song by Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder, etc. it sounded like a Motown record. Although Florence sounded lovely, there was nothing about the arrangement of the song, or her vocals that sounded the "Sound of young America".

Oh please. Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer sounds like vegas stripper music. It was left off because Diane didn't want the fans and public to hear Flo or Mary sing, because she was afraid people would ask for MORE of them. It's all out of insecurity.

**captainjames** · 12-13-2015, 03:51 AM

It is truly wild about this LP because no matter what store I go in these days it seems to be playing. Silver Bells as strange as it may seems seems to be the favorite.

**vgalindo** · 12-13-2015, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by skooldem1

It is possible that these songs were not originally on the album, because they didn't sound like "The Motown Sound". When you heard a Christmas song by Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder, etc. it sounded like a Motown record. Although Florence sounded lovely, there was nothing about the arrangement of the song, or her vocals that sounded the "Sound of young America".

I agree. These songs by Florence are nice but they would have not fit on this album.

**marv2** · 12-13-2015, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by vgalindo

I agree. These songs by Florence are nice but they would have not fit on this album.

Why not? Florence was singing Christmas songs and it was a Christmas album! Why in the Hell did they record her on them in the first place? It is what Jill said as the reason they were left off of "Merry Christmas The Supremes" .

**luke** · 12-13-2015, 10:27 AM

Of course that's why. Florence sounds like an operatic Aretha Franklin.

**Bluebrock** · 12-13-2015, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

Why not? Florence was singing Christmas songs and it was a Christmas album! Why in the Hell did they record her on them in the first place? It is what Jill said as the reason they were left off of "Merry Christmas The Supremes" .

It would have been Berry's decision to leave the songs off the album NOT Diana's. Berry was the boss. It is no secret he favoured Diana but at the end of the day it was his Company, his money, his decision. He did it for financial reasons. He wanted Diana to be the face and voice of the Supremes and one cannot argue with success.

**captainjames** · 12-13-2015, 12:11 PM

"The album is remarkable; it isn’t just good, it’s great. This is one of the all-time classic holiday albums, a collection of beautifully-produced songs capturing all the joy and magic of Christmas. It’s also one of Diana’s shining moments as a vocalist; her warm performances are absolutely glorious, and a few of the tracks rank among her very best work. Knowing that Mary and Florence didn’t record the album with her may be disappointing, but it doesn’t detract from the quality of the songs; Diana Ross delivers such sterling vocal work that she easily carries Merry Christmas herself [[although she is ably supported by great background singers and session players). This is simply a perfect album, one that’s deservedly become a classic and an essential part of the holiday season. "

Now that being said does anyone know the month that Florence actually laid her tracks down for this album ? I love her on these two cuts but she is no Aretha Franklin in my opinion. At least the Aretha that use to sing "Respect" and "Think" and "This is the House that Jack Built."

We are all aware that BG was the final decision maker on the final product of The Supremes with or without Quality Control. I am surprise that Harvey did not have a song for Mary to sing on this album or maybe he did and its still in the vault or maybe she really was away on vacation and didn't get back in time for the final product.

At any rate I bring this classic album every year and play it and it brings back so many memories.

**floyjoy678** · 12-13-2015, 02:03 PM

I love these new alternate vocal takes of Florence's songs. I think she missed her calling in Broadway/Theater. With some vocal training [[like Diana received), Flo really could have done well. She would have had more stability in her life doing musicals on stage and probably would have been much happier.

**Bluebrock** · 12-13-2015, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by captainjames

"The album is remarkable; it isn’t just good, it’s great. This is one of the all-time classic holiday albums, a collection of beautifully-produced songs capturing all the joy and magic of Christmas. It’s also one of Diana’s shining moments as a vocalist; her warm performances are absolutely glorious, and a few of the tracks rank among her very best work. Knowing that Mary and Florence didn’t record the album with her may be disappointing, but it doesn’t detract from the quality of the songs; Diana Ross delivers such sterling vocal work that she easily carries Merry Christmas herself [[although she is ably supported by great background singers and session players). This is simply a perfect album, one that’s deservedly become a classic and an essential part of the holiday season. "

Now that being said does anyone know the month that Florence actually laid her tracks down for this album ? I love her on these two cuts but she is no Aretha Franklin in my opinion. At least the Aretha that use to sing "Respect" and "Think" and "This is the House that Jack Built."

We are all aware that BG was the final decision maker on the final product of The Supremes with or without Quality Control. I am surprise that Harvey did not have a song for Mary to sing on this album or maybe he did and its still in the vault or maybe she really was away on vacation and didn't get back in time for the final product.

At any rate I bring this classic album every year and play it and it brings back so many memories.

I agree with just about everything you say here. Thank you for a balanced view which is something of a rare occurrence around here. Be prepared for the fall out..............

**Jimi LaLumia** · 12-13-2015, 02:47 PM

It's Time to Move On!... Merry Christmas!!

**vgalindo** · 12-13-2015, 06:29 PM

Yes my all time favorite Christmas album. Play it every year through the season. Everyone that I know loves this album. So many happy memories with this great album!

**antceleb12** · 12-14-2015, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by skooldem1

It is possible that these songs were not originally on the album, because they didn't sound like "The Motown Sound". When you heard a Christmas song by Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder, etc. it sounded like a Motown record. Although Florence sounded lovely, there was nothing about the arrangement of the song, or her vocals that sounded the "Sound of young America".

Not sure I understand. All of the tracks were cut at the same sessions. To be fair, none of the album sounds like a Motown album. It sounds like a Christmas album.

Florence is my favorite Supreme, but I can understand why they were left off the album. There are a couple rough spots in each track. Not saying Florence sounded bad at all, but with a little more polishing or a few more takes she possibly could have rounded out those rougher parts. Gordy wanted nothing but perfection, and I don't think Berry thought Flo's tracks were perfect [[although, to be fair, the only track on the album I think Diana sounds perfect on is "Noel" - ironically, also unreleased).

Frankly, as much as I love "Silent Night" and "O Holy Night," its clear those backing tracks weren't perfect. "Silent Night" was too high for Diana [[there's a bootleg floating around of Diana singing the first verse - I used to have it but have lost it )and was straining for Florence on parts. "Oh Holy Night" is ungodly slow.

What's interesting is that Florence and Mary recorded "none" of the backgrounds, yet Florence has two whole, complete tracks. Mary also recalls recording the album. Where were the girls during these sessions? Did Florence and Mary chose to "not record" vocal parts as is suggested? Did they put down some parts and were overridden later? Or were they completely excluded?

**Jimi LaLumia** · 12-14-2015, 08:43 PM

History indicates [[as was super obvious by the time of "Funny Girl")that Mary & Flo, and later, Mary & Cindy, went in and recorded their parts, and then, Gordy brought the Andantes in and completely re did the backups, going back to the "More Hits" album apparently.. you also hear the Andantes on Four Tops singles, going back as far as "Ask The Lonely".. Gordy was only interested in a product for the radio,and what he thought sounded radio ready.. and he ear marked Ross as the group's version of Martha, or Levi,or Gladys [[Horton or Knight, take your pick)..it's the way he did biz..only The Tempts had two main leads, but on the singles it was mostly Ruffin and then Edwards..