Martha Reeves and Ashford and Simpson,I'm A Winner

[REDHOT]

Have anyone ever notice ?on Martha Reeves and The Vandellas album Black Magic album,the song I'm A Winner,it's Martha Reeves and Ashford and Simpson,no Vandellas on this track,i must say Ashford and Simpson sound great in the background,what do other people here think? Martha sounds great,

[johnny_raven]

I love this song ... however it's on Sugar 'n Spice, not Black Magic.

[REDHOT]

My bad,you're right Johnny_Raven lol,the other song was Tear It On Down,that's on the Black Magic album.i wish Ashford and Simpson had produced a album, on Martha Reeves and The Vandellas,i thought they worked good together.

[johnny_raven]

I agree, RedHot. Tear It On Down is another one of my faves.

[daviddesper]

Never noticed the production or background credits on those two songs, but both are among my favorites. I thought the piano on I'm a Winner was awesome and that it was the best cut on that album. Yes, they made a great team.

[Sharpmoves]

Have anyone ever notice ?on Martha Reeves and The Vandellas album Black Magic album,the song I'm A Winner,it's Martha Reeves and Ashford and Simpson,no Vandellas on this track,i must say Ashford and Simpson sound great in the background,what do other people here think? Martha sounds great,

Where do you get your information from on this Redhot? Listening to it again, I would have said it was the Andantes, with possibly Roz and Betty in the background too. There is nothing about whose singing on my CD version of this album. I certainly agree it's a brilliant track, but then I like at lot of Sugar 'n Spice.

[westgrandboulevard]

I too will have to listen 'I'm A Winner' again, and v-e-r-y c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y.

Redhot may well be right with that information, as Ashford & Simpson apparently did often sing background on songs they produced - for example, even if I've not seen it officially noted, they are reportedly on 'Destination Anywhere' by The Marvelettes, joined by a Marvelette or two...even if my ears keep telling me it's The Andantes....!

[reese]

To me, it sounds like Ashford and Simpson [[and maybe some others) doing the backgrounds on I'M A WINNER. In fact, Nick's voice is rather dominant on it, IMO.

[Sharpmoves]

The great thing is that we're all listening again to that track. And hopefully others...who's in the background on Loneliness is a Lonely Feeling I wonder....? Deke?

[thommg]

I would put Black Magic in my list of Desert Island Records. There isn't a bad track on that album.

That said, I really am not familiar with Sugar 'n Spice. I'll have to get a hold of that recording and play it. Really, so much Motown, so little time!

[luke]

Lol..so much Motown so little time! Love it ..and I love Tear it on down too. Is Black Magic the album intended for Diana Ross and songs in her key? She didn't like it?

[Bluebrock]

Lol..so much Motown so little time! Love it ..and I love Tear it on down too. Is Black Magic the album intended for Diana Ross and songs in her key? She didn't like it?

I have heard that myself but I think Martha nails each and every song in her own wonderful style.

[johnny_raven]

I remember reading that Black Magic was intended for Diana Ross, but was originally titled Black Lace.

[motony]

"I'm A Winner" is a great recording. Martha sounds really great on it & I always thought that should have been an A side single. I heard that Ashford & Simpson were usually in the background on their productions.

[REDHOT]

I'm 100%sure it's Ashford and Simpson singing the background,on I'm A Winner,with Martha Reeves,i first notice it,when i listen to it the track,with earphones,i agree with you motony,it should have been a single.

[daviddesper]

I agree that I'm a Winner would have been a great singles choice. They might have been able to still capitalize on the reasonably good airplay and sales that they had with Honey Chile, I Can't Dance to That Music You're Playing, and Love Bug Leave My Heart Alone. I thought that the first single "Taking My Love and Leaving Me" was actually one of the weaker songs on the album.

[reese]

Among the songs on SUGAR AND SPICE, I think SHOE LEATHER EXPRESSWAY, YOU'RE THE LOSER NOW, and IT AIN'T LIKE THAT might have made good singles.

[supremester]

I don't hear any hits on Sugar N Spice - except maybe i'm A Winner with a stronger mono mix - it's a great track and Martha nails it perfectly. I think they were smart to give up on Sugar n Spice and release Deke's I Can't Dance.

[johnny_raven]

Sugar n Spice came out more than a year after I Can't Dance ...

[supremester]

Black magic/Black Lace was never intended as a Diana Ross project. Several of the songs were cut for her and rejected, but Bless You, for example, was wriiten and produced especially for Martha who has a 5 octive range and can sing in anyone's key with no strain at all. And I agree that Martha nails every track perfectly - it's my fave of her entire career by far.

I have heard that myself but I think Martha nails each and every song in her own wonderful style.

[supremester]

You're right - I always get that date wrong. Still, I think that album is a mess and only one contender in the bunch. The next album was much better, but Motown was still sorely missing HDH and Martha suffered the worst.

Sugar n Spice came out more than a year after I Can't Dance ...

[midnightman]

Since the "Black Magic" album was mentioned.

[johnny_raven]

I think that album is a mess and only one contender in the bunch. The next album was much better, but Motown was still sorely missing HDH and Martha suffered the worst.

I completely agree on all counts!

[midnightman]

Didn't help that MR went through a nervous breakdown during this period.

[REDHOT]

I really liked The Sugar and Spice Album,i also like It Ain't Like That,Martha's voice is on point,on this track.

[Sharpmoves]

Yes, I agree. I can't really accept that S&S is "a mess" at all. Actually, although Black Magic contains some of the very best Vandellas recordings ever [[No One There, The Best Years of my Life, Tear it on Down) there is such a difference in sound quality between these tracks - rich and full and the shallower and less clear sound on eg Your Love Makes it all Worthwhile. And it was very badly handled by Motown - why include Something again? Despite the evocative album title, there was no overall concept, and no one really was there in charge of the whole production - it was another miscellaneous scrapbook of various recordings. Such a shameful way to treat these artists, who were in the charts in the UK at the time, admittedly with re-releases. S&S was also a scrapbook album, and produced when Martha was ill, so not able to tour to promote a single. But nevertheless I find it a more integrated scrapbook than Black Magic. And we haven't mentioned What Now My Love - Martha sings that as though it had been written especially for her, and despite many, many covers, I prefer Martha's to any I have heard.

[gordy_hunk]

The LP is not one of my favourites, but I have listened again to the track "i'm a winner" - and I can't determine if it is Nick and Val singing background vocals.

It's a grittier version than the Diana Ross track - which is good, in that both versions really are different.

Thanks for posting - I had forgotten that Martha had recorded this track.

[REDHOT]

Again i'm 100%sure it's Ashford and Simpson singing the background,behind Martha on I'm A Winner,Martha sings I'm A Winner like Ashford and Simpson wrote the song for her,they didn't,but that how good Martha was,she made I'm A Winner her own.

[supremester]

Berry Gordy, upon reflection, must realized he ruined Your love makes it all worthwhile by over mixing it. He had a tendency to do that - just like he pointed out to Deke about we Need You. i love Black Magic because it has a diverse group of tracks that are all, really, good to excellent. Martha is in TOP form and it was definitely a qualified success. Martha never was an album seller, the only really quasi-successful album was Watchout! with two top 10's on it. The next LP barely charted with Honey Chile - Black Magic did very well for Martha with no hits at all.
I thin
k they included Something again because it is a killer track that no one heard on the abysmal selling Natural Resources - I think it was a smart move as it made it a stronger collection and Motown was putting everything behind this one. Gordy was a huge fan of Martha's voice.

.

Yes, I agree. I can't really accept that S&S is "a mess" at all. Actually, although Black Magic contains some of the very best Vandellas recordings ever [[No One There, The Best Years of my Life, Tear it on Down) there is such a difference in sound quality between these tracks - rich and full and the shallower and less clear sound on eg Your Love Makes it all Worthwhile. And it was very badly handled by Motown - why include Something again? Despite the evocative album title, there was no overall concept, and no one really was there in charge of the whole production - it was another miscellaneous scrapbook of various recordings. Such a shameful way to treat these artists, who were in the charts in the UK at the time, admittedly with re-releases. S&S was also a scrapbook album, and produced when Martha was ill, so not able to tour to promote a single. But nevertheless I find it a more integrated scrapbook than Black Magic. And we haven't mentioned What Now My Love - Martha sings that as though it had been written especially for her, and despite many, many covers, I prefer Martha's to any I have heard.

[captainjames]

Once again
The odd man odd
"IT AIN'T LIKE THAT", was one of my favorite tracks. As far s I was concerned the Queen was at the top of her game.

[Sharpmoves]

Berry Gordy, upon reflection, must realized he ruined Your love makes it all worthwhile by over mixing it. He had a tendency to do that - just like he pointed out to Deke about we Need You. i love Black Magic because it has a diverse group of tracks that are all, really, good to excellent. Martha is in TOP form and it was definitely a qualified success. Martha never was an album seller, the only really quasi-successful album was Watchout! with two top 10's on it. The next LP barely charted with Honey Chile - Black Magic did very well for Martha with no hits at all.
I thin
k they included Something again because it is a killer track that no one heard on the abysmal selling Natural Resources - I think it was a smart move as it made it a stronger collection and Motown was putting everything behind this one. Gordy was a huge fan of Martha's voice.

.

Interesting. Thanks for these insights Supremester. Didn't Dance Party sell well? I thought it had. Must put in a word for Hope I Don't Get My Heart Broke - another B-side that finally found an album home on Black Magic, and surely one of the most down-home bluesy tracks ever put out on Motown [[apart from Hattie Littles' early stuff, of course!). On the other hand, Anyone Who Had A Heart I think was spoiled by trying to do something clever and different - the slow tempo and elaborate arrangement just undermine the song, and it would really have been a killer track for Martha if they had just done it "straight". Still, I've Given You The Best Years Of My Life - now there's a killer track for you...

[westgrandboulevard]

...and also recorded by P. J. [[Patti Jerome; Harry Balk's wife) at Hitsville Studio B, just 3 days before Martha's version....

[Sharpmoves]

...and also recorded by P. J. [[Patti Jerome; Harry Balk's wife) at Hitsville Studio B, just 3 days before Martha's version....

Very interesting! I've never heard that version. Do you prefer it to Martha's?
Just listened again to Black Magic - it certainly is a good album, and some brilliant performances by Martha, and [[hopefully various Vandellas?). But why only 11 tracks? How stingy can you get? Here are my star-ratings?

1. No One There *****+ a truly outstanding performance and recording, timeless & perfect.
2. Your Love Makes It All Worthwhile *** much better than I remember it, but needed a deeper richer recorded sound, and more prominent strings
3. Something ***** beautiful alternative to The Beatles version, but it fits better on Natural Resources
4. Benjamin ***** awesomely beautiful performance and arrangements - wistful and longing Martha on peak form here
5. Tear It On Down *****+ one of the best things MR&TV ever recorded, a stomping funk-fest. Boy oh boy, this is good!
6. I've Given You The Best Years Of My Life*****+ I love this - oh Martha outraged and torchy. it doesn't get better than this.
7. Bless You **** lovely and catchy, but the recorded sound isn't clear enough for my tastes. I love the extended strings re-mix on You Tube, 'though. And it should have been a bigger hit.
8. I Want You Back *** A good adult-sounding interpretation of this, but The J5 nailed it and the arrangement for this version is messy. Shame, I like what Martha and the girls do with it.
9. In and Out of My Life ***** beautiful arrangement and vocal from Martha. The track should have been a bit slower and longer, and the sound could have been a touch clearer. But lovely work
10. Anyone Who Had A Heart ** Just doesn't work like this for me. Pity, it could have been stunning. Too busy arrangement, and slowed down too much for my tastes.
11. Hope I Dont Get My Heart Broke ***** Wow, what a gutsy and mesmerising performance from Martha - beautiful bluesy arrangement. An absolute soul classic.
12. [in my dreams!] Let Me Fall In Love With You *****+ this stunning new recording produced by Stevie Wonder presents a whole new Martha Reeves, in modern funky mode. She delivers a scorching lead vocal over classic rhythmic early '70s Stevie
Wonder sound. Cool and devastating!

[westgrandboulevard]

Sharpmoves....

P.J's version is much slower, more stately, with strings prominent. It doesn't have anywhere near the attack of Martha's, but it's an arrangement which would still have suited Martha's, at times, world weary, aching voice, and given her a 'big ballad'. In some ways, I prefer it.....

P.J.'s version can be found on The Complete Motown Singles Vol. 11A- 1971, and you should find an opportunity to listen to a snatch of it.....

I agree with practically everything you say above on the 'Black Magic' album.

Random thoughts :

'Your Love Makes It All Worthwhile' has far too thin a sound [[and just trails away to nothing at the end, with vocal indistinct). I can see the intention was to go for a 'pop' sound, but both 'YLMIAW' and 'Bless You' should have had more of a 'boom' effect.

'Benjamin' is one of Martha's best ballads.....

'I've Given You The Best Years Of My Life' is a very strong song. The vocals and the brass is great, but I have reservations about the drum [[too tippy tappy). I'm not too keen on fuzz guitar, but it works here, but the other guitar sound is too clunky for me. Overall, the sound is a tad 'murky' to my ears. I'd have have preferred a cleaner, clearer sound.

If you've not already found it, there's a good clip of 'IGYTBYOML' on You Tube, posted by Steven Michael Bogarat; an extended version, at times featuring just the instruments and background vocals....

[westgrandboulevard]

Sharpmoves....

Grapevine has, today, very kindly added P.J.'s version of 'I've Given You The Best Years Of My Life' to his Soulful Detroit Jukebox thread.

It's included among the selection in post # 4797.

[grapevine]

'I've Given You The Best Years Of My Life' ...by PJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCGQ1dFpYTY

'I've Given You The Best Years Of My Life' ...by Martha Reeves & The Vandellas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8u_zX8eTFo

[westgrandboulevard]

Thanks Grape!

A slice of 'Soulful Detroit Jukebox Jury' for us, so we can take our choice....

[REDHOT]

Has there ever been a remix of Martha Reeves and The Vandellas I'm A Winner ?

[westgrandboulevard]

Redhot, you could always try asking Midnight Johnny [[mogosotam, on You Tube)

He's already created an extended version of 'It Ain't Like That'...but it looks as if MJ has yet to use his talent on 'I'm A Winner'......

[Sharpmoves]

Redhot, you could always try asking Midnight Johnny [[mogosotam, on You Tube)

He's already created an extended version of 'It Ain't Like That'...but it looks as if MJ has yet to use his talent on 'I'm A Winner'......

And, of course, he has extended Loneliness is a Lonely Feeling, and Shoe Leather Expressway too, brilliantly. If he thinks these tracks are worth all the hard work to extend and enhance them then perhaps Sugar 'n Spice isn't such a "mess" after all? Just saying....

[westgrandboulevard]

I love Shoe Leather Expressway, and that b-i-i-i-g sound and echo, which is the ideal setting for Martha's voice.

Every time I hear a text come in on the mobile phone, it reminds me of that intro......

[Laserdk]

I've often wondered if Blinky's version of "Shoe Leather Expressway" uses the same backing track as Martha Revees & the Vandellas' version.

Ivor

[REDHOT]

Has Martha Reeves and The Vandellas ever sing I'm A Winner or Tear It On Down in they're live shows ?

[marv2]

Has Martha Reeves and The Vandellas ever sing I'm A Winner or Tear It On Down in they're live shows ?

That's a question for Martha or Lois. I will try Martha first.

[theboyfromxtown]

I've often wondered if Blinky's version of "Shoe Leather Expressway" uses the same backing track as Martha Revees & the Vandellas' version.

Ivor

Ivor

Where did you get the information that Blinky recorded that track?

[Laserdk]

Can't recall for sure John but I've just checked if the track was on my old paper list of Blinky unreleased tracks and it is so I must have come across it one of the many old fanzine newsletters/mail-outs even as far as back as that old Supremes International Fan Club newsletter where lots of unreleased recordings used to get listed or, perhaps, the old Motown & Motorcity Fan Club mail-outs from the 1990s but, in both cases, we have come to learn that some of those listed tracks don't actually exist so who knows for sure with this one [[although I'd like to think it does exist).

Ivor

[theboyfromxtown]

I'd hate to disappoint you...so I'll say nothing!

[Laserdk]

Well I assume from that response John you know the track doesn't actually exist.

Ivor

[theboyfromxtown]

Well I assume from that response John you know the track doesn't actually exist.

Ivor

Aww Ivor - I didn't mean to be such a meanie! Consider me told off.

No, you mustn't assume that I KNOW it doesn't exist because I don't. If I'm honest, I have not seen anything that would suggest that it does but over the years, things have turned up which are not supported by paperwork. Like the time when a former Motown employee stored a load of the old temporary recording reel tapes that she had in her garage for 30/40 years. Similarly, when I bought Johnny Bristol's reel to reel tapes, there were odd things on those that were unusual. So although I would say it's unlikely, I wouldn't go as far as saying it doesn't exist.