Supremes' Attitude While Recording WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO

[milven]

Considering that that the Supremes did not like the song, Diana had to sing it in a different key, sang it with an attitude and Flo and Mary refused to do an intricate background arrangement; it is a wonder that the final product was so good and became number one.

Lamont Dozier explained in the book Chicken Soup For the Soul: The Story Behind The Song: "I originally cut this track with the Marvelettes in mind. In fact, I cut it in Gladys Horton's key, the lead singer, which was much lower than Diana Ross'. ...

I told [[The Supremes) it was tailor made for them, knowing that they had nothing going on at the time and needed a song. Much to my surprise, they said no. Gladys [[Horton of the Marvelettes) told them I was looking for someone to record it. I wasn't giving up. ...

They were so annoyed that they agreed to do it that, in the studio, they had a really bad attitude. Diana [[Ross) said it was in the wrong key, that it was too low. [[Of course it was - I wrote it in Gladys' key.) Since the track was already cut, she had to sing it in that key and she'd never sung that low before. It turned out that her bad attitude and the low key were exactly what the song needed! I'd worked out intricate background vocals but the girls refused to learn them. Finally I said, 'Just sing 'Baby, baby, baby'.' It worked to their advantage and worked perfectly.

[[Mary Wilson said) "One of the things we didn't like about it was that Flo and I just had to sing, 'Baby, baby.' We were used to doing intricate harmonic patterns but on this song we didn't do anything."



The above is edited. Full article is here

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1128

I guess with the success of WDOLG, it was inevitable that all future songs would have the group sing with a lead singer and two background singers singing Baby Baby

[captainjames]

Often wonder what key "Lovelights" was in because Diana's range sounds similar to my ear.

[soulster]

[[Mary Wilson said) "One of the things we didn't like about it was that Flo and I just had to sing, 'Baby, baby.' We were used to doing intricate harmonic patterns but on this song we didn't do anything."

Man! How's that for being two-faced! Hah!

Now, this is the stuff I like to read here, including the more technical stuff, like what kind of EQ was used, how much limiting was done on the vocals, how the tracks were bounced.

They didn't necessarily agree. Diana and I were throwing obscenities back and forth and she went running to Berry [[Gordy, Jr.) and told him I said something off color about him. He came down to the studio to see what was wrong and while he was there, he asked to hear the song. He thought it was really good, but said that he didn't know if it was a hit, but that he thought it would be Top 10.

That shut her up!

[thomas96]

Supremes songs are for simpletons.

[soulster]

Supremes songs are for simpletons.

That is a baited post, man. I ain't taking it. But, I will ask you: what music isn't for simpletons?

[BigAl]

Supremes songs are for simpletons.

"Lovelight," "Where Did Our Love Go," and "Baby Love" had very, very simple background vocal arrangements [[understatement of the week), with Flo and Mary singing in unison and not employing any vocal harmonies. As has been noted countless times, on "Where Did Our Love Go," Florence is miked down so far that, basically, almost all you hear is Mary in the background. So, yes: in this regard, the songs were quite simple — but only vocally. There was so much going on instrumentally that the songs didn't suffer from the very spare background vocals. It's interesting to conjecture, however, how much more compelling these songs might have sounded with more complex vocal backgrounds. Of course, the same could be said of almost any Supremes A-sides, except for "Come See About Me" and "The Happening," where Flo and Mary were given more to do, were heard much more prominently, and weren't padded out and then muffled back down with the addition of Andantes.

[marybrewster]

I may have been dreaming, but hasn't HDH also said that "WDOLG" was NEVER intended for the Marvelettes?

I still can't believe that the "no-hit" Supremes had the veto power to say NO to any recording.

[midnightman]

^ Brian Holland said the song was never intended for them. IDK, I tend to believe him and Katherine Anderson's accounts for it. Remember, the Supremes and the Marvelettes were archrivals at one point, members of both groups [[well just Mary in the Supremes and a couple of Marvelettes, namely Gladys & Wanda) who kept adding to the drama about which song was going to go to whom...

The Supremes didn't have that power, Mary. If you don't have a hit, you can't argue about what song you want to record. Diana, Mary and Flo conceded to it though none of them really liked the song at first.

[marybrewster]

The Supremes didn't have that power, Mary. If you don't have a hit, you can't argue about what song you want to record. Diana, Mary and Flo conceded to it though none of them really liked the song at first.

Thank you. I always thought it funny; here are the Supremes [[or Primettes) who come to Motown every day after school, jumping at any opportunity to add "ooohs" or handclaps to any recording.....

The Marvelettes "turning down" the song also sounds a bit suspect. Berry Gordy Jr. doesn't seem like a man that accepts "NO" for an answer.

Just more "Motown Myth".

I do think it's a bit ironic though, that later in their career, the Marvelettes would record songs like "A Breathtaking Guy" and "Someday We'll Be Together". Perhaps it's a bit of, what goes around, comes around.

[westgrandboulevard]

While I have a tendency to think "well, I suppose those who were there at the time should know...", and am quite prepared to believe the story, I do find myself in strong agreement with marybrewster and midnightman.

All the acts at Hitsville may have hoped for a release, and a successful one, but surely must have known that at least some of the songs they were given to record may not be released as a single in the short term.

If an act declined to sing this song, or that song, they could be reducing their chances of a release in the near future - or someone else would simply go into the studio and tackle it in their place...so it doesn't seem logical to be picky. I doubt that any of the acts loved every single song which was assigned to them. The ideal situation when selecting the next single would be to have more than one track in the can which might be suitable, even if it needed to have more work on it.

Diana may well have agreed with Mary and Florence, but I suspect she also took an overview and clearly understood even then of how the business at Hitsville worked, so agreed to do it. Everything else followed from there.....

[arr&bee]

As far as intricate backgound part went, the miracles had that on lockdown followed closely by the temps.

[thommg]

I just was reading the Motown Encyclopedia entry on The Supremes. I believe it said that it wasn't that the Marvelettes turned the song down but, rather, there were two songs and they preferred to record the other one. While the background is very simple, that may be what caused the record to skyrocket. Lots of songs being released around that time were very boisterous and this seems the exact opposite. Perhaps, the simple background made it stand out from the crowd. It was certainly different than their previous releases.

[arr&bee]

While we're on the subject, diana was so mad that she started to call berry and eddie said that if she did hdh would never work with them again....she put down the phone and the rest is history.

[Methuselah2]

I've also read that WHERE was offered to The Velvelettes. Any more info on this? [[Tbfxt - Where are you?!)

[midnightman]

Thank you. I always thought it funny; here are the Supremes [[or Primettes) who come to Motown every day after school, jumping at any opportunity to add "ooohs" or handclaps to any recording.....

The Marvelettes "turning down" the song also sounds a bit suspect. Berry Gordy Jr. doesn't seem like a man that accepts "NO" for an answer.

Just more "Motown Myth".

I do think it's a bit ironic though, that later in their career, the Marvelettes would record songs like "A Breathtaking Guy" and "Someday We'll Be Together". Perhaps it's a bit of, what goes around, comes around.

Yep. Definitely part of the Motown myth.

[midnightman]

I just was reading the Motown Encyclopedia entry on The Supremes. I believe it said that it wasn't that the Marvelettes turned the song down but, rather, there were two songs and they preferred to record the other one. While the background is very simple, that may be what caused the record to skyrocket. Lots of songs being released around that time were very boisterous and this seems the exact opposite. Perhaps, the simple background made it stand out from the crowd. It was certainly different than there previous releases.

Plus what this song ended up doing is give the Supremes their identity. Identity was really important to establish in Motown if you wanted a career. That's why the music of many of the established acts showcased their diversity. The Marvelettes were known for those sassy streetwise records [[which is why they did songs like "Too Many Fish in the Sea") while the Vandellas were known for their gospel productions. WDOLG established the Supremes as "uptown girls" so to speak. So that arrangement you speak of worked truly well to establish them.

[johnjeb]

From the article:

Lamont Dozier explained in the book Chicken Soup For the Soul: The Story Behind The Song: "I originally cut this track with the Marvelettes in mind. In fact, I cut it in Gladys Horton's key, the lead singer, which was much lower than Diana Ross'. At that time, at Motown, the policy was that the songwriters had to pay for the tracks we cut if it didn't get recorded by one of their artists. It never entered my mind that the Marvelettes wouldn't like the song. I had the chorus and went to the office to talk with Gladys and played it for her. She said, 'Oh, honey, we don't do stuff like that. And it's the worst thing I ever heard.' She was adamant about it. I was shocked.

I knew I was in deep trouble if I didn't hurry and get someone to do the song because I wasn't about to pay for the track. I went through the Motown artist roster and went all the way to the bottom of the list and there were the Supremes, better known in those days as the 'no hit Supremes.' I told them it was tailor made for them, knowing that they had nothing going on at the time and needed a song. Much to my surprise, they said no. Gladys [[Horton of the Marvelettes) told them I was looking for someone to record it. I wasn't giving up. Brian [[Holland), Eddie [[Holland) and I finally persuaded them to do it, convincing them that it was their saving grace and they couldn't refuse it. We had already had Top 40 hits with Martha & the Vandellas but they hadn't had recordings of any significance yet.

So it sounds like Lamont was desperate for someone to record this song so he wouldn't have to pay for the session himself...checking the Motown artist roster he makes it all the way to the "bottom of the list and there were The Supremes". He had to check a list to see who else could record the song???!!!

And The Supremes had heard from Gladys Horton that Lamont was looking for someone to record the song that she said was the worst thing she had ever heard!!!

Well, no wonder these young teenage girls had bad attitudes in the studio.

It was a small company and they probably realized everyone knew they were recording a song that no one else wanted to record. And they knew the producer didn't want to get stuck paying for the session - so they realized they were being used. That certainly must have been another blow to the group's self-esteem. Add into that the stress of knowing that your parents wanted you to go to college instead of singing.

[arr&bee]

At this early stage i don't think they knew any better,being so young they would've sung[old mcdonald]just to have thier name on a record.

[thommg]

According to the Motown Encyclopedia, it was Too Many Fish In The Sea that the Marvelettes chose to record rather than Where Did Our Love Go.

[BigAl]

I think the gals were just very weary of struggling and felt that "Where Did Our Love Go" was going to be just another wasted effort. They had made a tepid Billboard pop chart showing with "Lovelight" [[#23, but #2 briefly on the Cash Box R&B chart) but then bombed with "Run Run Run." To their sensibilities, "Where Did Our Love Go" was nothing special so they went into it half-heartedly. Even after it struck gold, when they were subsequently presented with "Baby Love," they felt that it, too, was just more of the same. Most of us have heard the first take of that one, and it's completely without energy. [[I can only imagine what the first takes of "Where Did Our Love Go" must have sounded like.) By the time they were handed "Come See About Me," I think they knew their place on the charts was more assured and you can hear the difference in the energy there. The background harmonies are more like those in "A Breathtaking Guy," which was recorded at a time when they were more hopeful, before they had become so discouraged.

[theboyfromxtown]

http://www.windycitylive.com/episode...olland/9545787

I've posted this link on another thread but I would recommend checking out this link at about 5:00 minutes to hear Eddie Holland tell you about the attitude of the Supremes when they recorded Where Did Our Love Go

[roger]

I think the gals were just very weary of struggling and felt that "Where Did Our Love Go" was going to be just another wasted effort. They had made a tepid Billboard pop chart showing with "Lovelight" [[#23, but #2 briefly on the Cash Box R&B chart) but then bombed with "Run Run Run." To their sensibilities, "Where Did Our Love Go" was nothing special so they went into it half-heartedly. Even after it struck gold, when they were subsequently presented with "Baby Love," they felt that it, too, was just more of the same. Most of us have heard the first take of that one, and it's completely without energy. [[I can only imagine what the first takes of "Where Did Our Love Go" must have sounded like.) By the time they were handed "Come See About Me," I think they knew their place on the charts was more assured and you can hear the difference in the energy there. The background harmonies are more like those in "A Breathtaking Guy," which was recorded at a time when they were more hopeful, before they had become so discouraged.

Interesting theory there with "Baby Love" and "Come See About Me" BigAl, except that according to the booklet notes in TCMS4/Don't Forget The Motor City etc. "Come See About Me" was finished on 13th July 1964 [[the same week as "Where Did Our Love Go" debuted on the Billboard "Pop" Hot-100) and "Baby Love" wasn't first recorded until two weeks later, with the "final" version that was released as a single being completed on 13th August 1964 [[one week before "Where Did Our Love Go" topped Billboard's Hot-100.



Roger

[BigAl]

"Come See About Me" was finished on 13th July 1964 [[the same week as "Where Did Our Love Go" debuted on the Billboard "Pop" Hot-100) and "Baby Love" wasn't first recorded until two weeks later

Oops...mea culpa, Roger. You're absolutely correct. I had totally forgotten about the reversed studio and release chronologies until your post reminded me. Still, "Baby Love" is more than a little derivative of "Where Did Our Love Go," while "Come See About Me" is altogether different. [[Mary described WDOLG and BL as "kiddie-bop.") Maybe, after grumblingly doing WDOLG and then doing CSAM they might have felt that doing BL was kind of a step backward or something. I do understand Motown's wanting to release BL first, since similar-sounding follow-ups to big hits usually charted well back then and I guess they wanted to ride that momentum before going in a different direction.

[supremester]

I was told this same story from a different source - all three Supremes hated it and were all being bratty about it. You have to realize that part of their unhappiness was due to the fact that by the time they got WDOLG, it was obvious their follow up to Lovelight was D.O.A. - so rather than building and growing on their breakthrough hit, The Supremes had their second worst chart showing ever. Meanwhile in the last 9 months, Martha had 2 top tens with another possibility climbing, The Tempts bubbled out of oblivion with a big hit and Mary Well's My Guy was a smash out of the gate and soaring up the charts - all as The Supremes' fortunes sagged. Enter WDOLG and it's Marvelettes eschewed simplicity, Flo making fun of the hand-me-down, all three dissing it in front of HDH and you can imagine the tension in the studio when Diana decides to up the ante by calling Berry. Wisely, Eddie threw out the threat and wisely Diana took it seriously and gave the song a shot. To her credit, she finally tried her best to give the producer what was requested.

While we're on the subject, diana was so mad that she started to call berry and eddie said that if she did hdh would never work with them again....she put down the phone and the rest is history.

[johnny_raven]

CSAM was rush released as a single when BG heard that Nella Dodds' version was to be released.

[RossHolloway]

Something just doesn't add up with all these stories around WDOLG. In early 1964 around the recording of this song HDH was the hottest writers/producers at Motown, probably only followed by Smokey Robinson. And in early 1964 neither the Marvelettes nor the Supremes were "hot" at that time - 1963 was not a great year [[hit wise for the Marvelettes) and the Supreme's biggest hit to date was done with HDH. Were either group in a position to turn down WDOLG? And aside from the single put out under the name The Darnells [[Too Hurt to Cry, Too Much In Love to Say Goodbye/Come On Home) released in November 1963, I didn't think HDH worked much with the Marvelettes. I think there may have been one or possibly two other songs that they cut on the group. Whereas we now know that there were quite a few songs to date that HDH did with the Supreme's, with many going unreleased at the time. Why would the Supreme's argue against recording WDOLG, but have no issues with recording say a song like Penny Pincher - a direct derivative of Lovelight or Send Me No Flowers or tracks for their Country, Western & Pop album? I didn't think that most artists [[at that time) had the power or authority to turn down songs that the producers wanted them to record.

[supremester]

Artists didn't have to record just anything that any producer suggested. If BG ORDERED it, that would be different, but even he couldn't MAKE an act record something if they refused - however at some point the act would realize not to buck heads with BG and give in. artists were all trying to have hits and make money - if they recorded stuff they thought was no good, not only might it flop, but they'd still have to pay for the session. So if The M's think WDOLG was a stinker, with no hits in a while, why would they take a chance on it? The Supremes did the CW&P because it was a trend, they were desperate and, frankly, someone wanted to work with them. There wasn't exactly a line to get to them. If BG wasn't into them, they'd have not recorded as much but producers knew they'd get a great shot if they came up with something. They prolly did Penny pincher 'cos it was more peppy than their usual flop-olas. Bottom line: everyone was trying to make hits AND make money. I doubt that The Supremes had ever seen a royalty check at the time and didn't want to fund another stiff.

[motony]

the artists were usually presented with a group of songs to pick from.A new record from the Marvelettes would get far more attention then a new one from the Supremes at that time and I'm talking about R&B radio where the Marvelettes had steady airplay.

[luke]

And Too Many Fish..sounded like a smash, I imagine.

[RossHolloway]

Where Did Our Love Go was completed April 8, 1964 and released June 17, 1964

Too Many Fish In The Sea was completed September 22, 1964 and released October 14, 1964

According to DFTMC

[144man]

However, it was "You're My Remedy" which was released in the same month as "Where Did Our Love Go".

[RossHolloway]

You're My Remedy was completed March 25, 1964 and released June 8, 1964. Written and Produced by Smokey Robinson.

So it looks like it wasn't TMFITS, but You're My Remedy that the Marvelettes opted to record instead of Where Did Our Love Go. Interesting..

[midnightman]

Something just doesn't add up with all these stories around WDOLG. In early 1964 around the recording of this song HDH was the hottest writers/producers at Motown, probably only followed by Smokey Robinson. And in early 1964 neither the Marvelettes nor the Supremes were "hot" at that time - 1963 was not a great year [[hit wise for the Marvelettes) and the Supreme's biggest hit to date was done with HDH. Were either group in a position to turn down WDOLG? And aside from the single put out under the name The Darnells [[Too Hurt to Cry, Too Much In Love to Say Goodbye/Come On Home) released in November 1963, I didn't think HDH worked much with the Marvelettes. I think there may have been one or possibly two other songs that they cut on the group. Whereas we now know that there were quite a few songs to date that HDH did with the Supreme's, with many going unreleased at the time. Why would the Supreme's argue against recording WDOLG, but have no issues with recording say a song like Penny Pincher - a direct derivative of Lovelight or Send Me No Flowers or tracks for their Country, Western & Pop album? I didn't think that most artists [[at that time) had the power or authority to turn down songs that the producers wanted them to record.

Very interesting. I forget HDH didn't really work with the Marvelettes that much. MR&TV's were pretty much their girls prior to the Supremes.

[midnightman]

You're My Remedy was completed March 25, 1964 and released June 8, 1964. Written and Produced by Smokey Robinson.

So it looks like it wasn't TMFITS, but You're My Remedy that the Marvelettes opted to record instead of Where Did Our Love Go. Interesting..

That is if HDH ever did offer the song if Lamont Dozier is to be believed...

[mowsville]

Im very surprised no one has even mentioned that Lamont has said in other interviews that the song was written with Mary singing lead in mind..and those Motown myths just keep on coming.........

[BigAl]

It's my guess that the song was probably written pretty much on spec with little forethought as to who might ultimately record it. One of the the writers [[I can't remember whether it was H, D, or H) has said that it was written in a key which would have been in Gladys Horton's range. That range, however, could apply to any number of Hitsville's female vocalists, but definitely not Diane, who at the time was singing in a higher and more nasal register. When it was decided to give it to The Supremes, Eddie has said on many occasions that it was solely his idea to give Mary the lead because the key was lower than Diane or Florence were used to singing and he felt the song required a voice more "mature and sultry" than the youthful chirp which Diane was using at the time. He adds that this idea was immediately overruled by Brian and Lamont. To that point Mary had done only a couple of leads, while Diane had done the leads on the bulk of the previous sides and was quickly becoming identified, for better or for worse, as front-woman for the group. While Mary's voice would have been very well suited to that song, putting her out front for an A-side out of the blue would almost certainly have created a good deal of confusion to the casual listener not familiar with the group's personnel. It's fun to play the "What If" game and conjecture how things might have played out had Mary been given that lead and the song had gone gold as it did, but that didn't happen. Even if Diane's reedy voice wasn't as strong as Flo's or as interesting as Mary's, it can't be argued that she possessed the only real Top-40 voice of the three and was the group's best hope for crossover success. It's fortunate she finally agreed, albeit grumblingly, to sing in the lower key in which the song had been written. Had HDH pitched it higher for her it's unlikely it would have sounded very good. They did her a huge favor whether she knew it at the time or not.

[reese]

Very interesting. I forget HDH didn't really work with the Marvelettes that much. MR&TV's were pretty much their girls prior to the Supremes.

Although HDH as a team only had one release on the Marvelettes, LOCKING UP MY HEART [[plus the release by the Darnells), at least one of the guys co-wrote on many of their A-sides and B-sides up through 1965.

In the booklet for the Marvelettes' DELIVER collection, Gladys said they brought WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO and TOO MANY FISH IN THE SEA to the group at the same time. She said she chose TOO MANY FISH because it had more melody and the driving beat of the bongos appealed to her, as she was from the islands. She thought WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO was sort of plain. In Marc Taylor's book on the group, she says basically the same, although she emphasizes that the whole group made the choice, not only her.

[144man]

Although HDH as a team only had one release on the Marvelettes, LOCKING UP MY HEART, at least one of the guys co-wrote on many of their A-sides and B-sides up through 1965.

In the booklet for the Marvelettes' DELIVER collection, Gladys said they brought WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO and TOO MANY FISH IN THE SEA to the group at the same time. She said she chose TOO MANY FISH because it had more melody and the driving beat of the bongos appealed to her, as she was from the islands. She thought WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO was sort of plain. In Marc Taylor's book on the group, she says basically the same, although she emphasizes that the whole group made the choice, not only her.

Yet it was the unreleased-at-the-time "Finders Keepers Losers Weepers" that HDH completed on the Marvelettes the week after WDOLG.

[luke]

Exactly! And the Supremes having had a "hit" with Lovelight wanted more of the same from HDH and another uptempo Vandella like song.

[milven]

I was watching a guy being interviewed about his Tin Pan Alley Book and he told a story that reminded me of this thread. Just like the Supremes, Rosemary Clooney sang her first hit record under protest and with attitude because she hated it , but had to do it if she wanted to keep her recording contract. Mitch Miller was one the most successful A&R men of his generation and what he said was law.

The song was written by Ross Bagdesarian , who would later achieve fame as David Seville and The Chipmunks.

Come On A My House was first performed during 1950 in an off-Broadway production of The Son, but did not become a hit until the release of Clooney's recording.

The song was a major hit for Clooney in 1951; it was the first of a number of dialect songs she did. She recorded the song with Mitch Miller and his orchestra in the early part of 1951, and the song reached #1 on the Billboard charts, staying in the top position for eight weeks.

Clooney sang the song in the 1953 film The Stars Are Singing in a scene where she ended up mocking the song and said no one would listen to it.

Although she performed "Come on-a My House" for many years, Clooney later confessed that she hated the song. She said she had been given a practice record of the song and told Miller that the song wasn't for her. Miller gave her an ultimatum: record the song or be fired. During a 1988 interview, Clooney said that whenever she listened to the recording she could hear the anger in her voice for being forced to sing it. Little did she know that the song would become one of her biggest hits
]

A few years later, she sang it in a movie, kind of mocking it.

[midnightman]

Although HDH as a team only had one release on the Marvelettes, LOCKING UP MY HEART [[plus the release by the Darnells), at least one of the guys co-wrote on many of their A-sides and B-sides up through 1965.

In the booklet for the Marvelettes' DELIVER collection, Gladys said they brought WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO and TOO MANY FISH IN THE SEA to the group at the same time. She said she chose TOO MANY FISH because it had more melody and the driving beat of the bongos appealed to her, as she was from the islands. She thought WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO was sort of plain. In Marc Taylor's book on the group, she says basically the same, although she emphasizes that the whole group made the choice, not only her.

Thanks, reese. That makes better sense.

[midnightman]

Exactly! And the Supremes having had a "hit" with Lovelight wanted more of the same from HDH and another uptempo Vandella like song.

Florence was on record saying how they wanted a song like "Please Mr. Postman"...