Massive backlash against Indiana's Religious Freedom Bill.

[Crystaledwards]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...p_ref=politics

I am tired of people confusing the right to worship as you choose and the right to discriminate. It is horseshit wrapped up in a carefully chosen passage from the bible. I would never dream of coming into your house of worship and telling you how to worship. When you open a business you should be required to serve the public and not discriminate. So now under this new law you can refuse to serve Gay and Lesbian customers in the State of Indiana. Is the refusal to serve Blacks, Jews and Muslims also accepted under this bigoted law? I find organized religion and religious fanatics quite repugnant.

Thank goodness I am Agnostic, but If there is a Jesus, he must be weeping today at the hate his name is being cloaked in.

CE

[soulster]

This is the new Jim Crow era. Former. Arizona Gov. Janet Brewer vetoed a similar bill last year, not because she disliked it, but that it would hurt business. The Indiana gov isn't so smart.

Not only are they displaying their gross hatred of a whole class of people, but are trying hard to rally their troops for the next presidential and congressional election. They know the law is discriminatory, but there is a Supreme Court ruling on gay rights coming up this spring. Look for this to embolden more christian conservatives to do the same now.

This is why I am not religious, but, even MC Hammer, a devout christian, has spoken out against this. Miley Cyrus called the guy an asshole.

Don't forget the tea-bagger senator in Colorado who said on TV radio show that the woman who had her baby cut out of her after answering a Craigslist ad was a result of God being mad at America, or some stupid shit like that. Damn! being an agnostic or an atheist is looking pretty good right now. Every time I start to give religious people the benefit of the doubt, they go and do stupid shit like this.

[Jerry Oz]

I'm a Christian and this doesn't reflect my point of view or sensibilities. I'm always amazed at which sins people condemn when the Bible clearly states that we all see sinners. As a matter of fact, the people that Jesus ministered to were not those who figured they had God's will all figured out, but those who has no understanding of God's role. Those other folks condemned him, just like faux fundamentalists twist his words and mission by doing stuff like this.

Contrary to the governor's evasive answers, this bill was passed specifically to show gay married people that they still are to be singled out. I can't figure out whose business it is to care about someone's sexual orientation. Will they refuse service to heterosexual couples who live together? Isn't that a sin as well? Can Catholic businesses deny service to divorced people? Or [[this is my favorite) can a business run by a Muslim deny service to a non-Muslim?

[soulster]

Or [[this is my favorite) can a business run by a Muslim deny service to a non-Muslim?

With as many Muslim-owned businesses as there are, i'm waiting hoping someone will use that law to make an example of it.

[Jerry Oz]

With as many Muslim-owned businesses as there are, i'm waiting hoping someone will use that law to make an example of it.

Can you imagine if an atheist denies service to anyone not willing to deny Christ? Or a gay-owned business denying straight-folks service due to their 'religious' beliefs?

I'm in the minority in my religious beliefs but I'm cool with that. For example, one of the hot button topics for many Christians is that they 'took prayer out of school'. I'm actually cool with it because it's hard to find two churches with the same denomination that believe the same way. And there are umpteen denominations, each with his own idea of what the Scriptures say.

And if I move to a community that is 90% Muslim, will my kids have an Islamic prayer before each school day?

[soulster]

Can you imagine if an atheist denies service to anyone not willing to deny Christ? Or a gay-owned business denying straight-folks service due to their 'religious' beliefs?

I'm in the minority in my religious beliefs but I'm cool with that. For example, one of the hot button topics for many Christians is that they 'took prayer out of school'.

Separation of church and state. Funny how many christians ignore that one, while claiming that liberals are trying to desecrate the Constitution.

[Jerry Oz]

I was once told that I'd burn in hell because I had an earring by a fundamentalist. The same guy told me later that I wasn't saved because when I was baptized, it wasn't done by dunking me in the river. There is so much mythology in what is accepted in the church that I bite my lip and refuse to debate others who clearly have listened to preachers instead of read the scriptures for themselves. I have many issues with people who purport to believe stuff that I can't find in the Bible and consider myself heretical from mainstream Christianity.

I once got a dirty look from a Rick Santorum supporter who insisted that President Obama was a Muslim, in spite of his claims to the contrary and his years of documented attendance at a Christian church. 'He just says that', is what the guy insisted. I asked about Santorum and was told that he was a devout Catholic. The guy was unhappy with me when I told him that if you can't take the president's word for it, then he had to also conclude that Santorum wasn't Catholic. 'He just says that', is what I told him and he had no answer for it.

[Crystaledwards]

No business should be allowed to discriminate against the LGBT community because of their religious beliefs. You are not born a Christian, your parents [[I presume) get you christened, but as an adult you have a choice to remain a Christian or not. There is no choice to be LGBT, one is born that way but if you are a Christian business owner who discriminates against certain customers, you become a spurious Christian and hiding your prejudiced beliefs behind religion is cowardly and shameful. The right to deny food, clothing, shelter, birth control services and medicine based on "personal beliefs" is abhorrent and rather similar to how Nazis denied economic access to Jews. This is America, a capitalist country, and it is imperative that every American have equal access, otherwise we are simply a fascist state of Orwellian contradiction. If Evangelical far-right Christians can't handle that, then they should move to a country where religious prejudice is enshrined in their culture.

Republicans rant, rave and bitch about excessive lawsuits and then pass laws that invite them.

CE

[soulster]

I was once told that I'd burn in hell because I had an earring by a fundamentalist. The same guy told me later that I wasn't saved because when I was baptized, it wasn't done by dunking me in the river. There is so much mythology in what is accepted in the church that I bite my lip and refuse to debate others who clearly have listened to preachers instead of read the scriptures for themselves. I have many issues with people who purport to believe stuff that I can't find in the Bible and consider myself heretical from mainstream Christianity.

I once got a dirty look from a Rick Santorum supporter who insisted that President Obama was a Muslim, in spite of his claims to the contrary and his years of documented attendance at a Christian church. 'He just says that', is what the guy insisted. I asked about Santorum and was told that he was a devout Catholic. The guy was unhappy with me when I told him that if you can't take the president's word for it, then he had to also conclude that Santorum wasn't Catholic. 'He just says that', is what I told him and he had no answer for it.

Dude, these mental cases are never going to wake up and realize how stupid they have been. They just dig in their heels. I'll bet they're getting all gooey inside dreaming up conspiracy theories about Obama's planned trip to Kenya.

About 20 years ago, I went to a Cavalry Chapel because I was told it was a great place. A couple of my friends went. Well, they stopped going, but never told me why. But, one night, I was at a bible study session one evening, and the pastor started making fun of men wearing earrings, and he had an obsession with King David. When he started making fun of men and earrings, at that exact moment, I knew the guy had issues. Later on that evening, I had a discussion with a couple of bikers and former drug users who said nothing but great stuff about the church, and being born-again because it helped them kick their drug habits. The next Sunday just happened to be easter service, and I noticed that the congregation was very rude and unfriendly. I realized that christians were full of it, and never went back. I've had similar experiences in other non-denominal christian churches, too. I think I got better treatment in a Mormon church than I did in a Catholic church, and in that Mormon church, I got called the n-word by some teenager who was mad that I danced [[tried to dance...man, I don't dance) with a white girl. I once went to a non-denominational Black church, and there was a lot of that pentecostal singing and "holy-rolling", but not much else.

One woman invited me to her Catholic bible study. I told her about how in the last several years, every religious person I have met gets political, and expresses hatred toward Obama and animosity toward Black people, and are extreme right-wingers. Some of them are even pastors. She told me that a few of the women tend to mouth off about Obama during bible study, but said they'd keep quiet about if I went. Needless to say, I did not go. Recently, she told me how she stopped going because they all went "new-age", and away from the scripture. Sounds like a bunch of nut jobs to me!

I went to a particular Southern Baptist church growing up, and they were hard core. I can only imagine how they are today, with Obama in office. I haven't been there since the late 70s!

I'm always being invited to one church or another, usually by white women, for some reason, but I just smile, say thank you, and move on. And, there's some kindly old men who keep giving me Jehovah's Witness pamphlets and DVDs. I can't be mean to these men, as they are so nice. But, I will never go to their church.

I have been thinking about trying out the Universalist Unitarian church, because they accept everyone, and I am friendly with a few liberal atheists. I've been invited.

[Jerry Oz]

Well, I am proof that all Christians don't have an allegedly religious political agenda that involves controlling the world. When churches start talking about politics and/or money, I have no need to attend them. I'll read the book at home if my only options are the ones that you've run into.

I'm also a big supporter of President Obama, so we're not all in the groups that you've encountered. My cousin once visited my church and my sister asked him if he noticed that everybody was smiling and courteous to each other [[even the visitors). He told her that he did notice it and she advised him that it's like that every Sunday. I hadn't thought about it until then, but that's probably why I attend it.

Those folks who spend time at church functions talking about the president are the ones who seek reasons to not like him. They'll be careful [[normally) to avoid talking about his race, but if you peel the layers of the onion back, you'll find that's their biggest problem. What's sad is that the Dems can lay claim to a lot of good things that have happened in the past seven years that the other party absolutely cannot be tied into. But they're cutting and running because the media reports that the president is 'unpopular'.

Absolutely amazing.

[Jerry Oz]

No business should be allowed to discriminate against the LGBT community because of their religious beliefs. You are not born a Christian, your parents [[I presume) get you christened, but as an adult you have a choice to remain a Christian or not. There is no choice to be LGBT, one is born that way but if you are a Christian business owner who discriminates against certain customers, you become a spurious Christian and hiding your prejudiced beliefs behind religion is cowardly and shameful. The right to deny food, clothing, shelter, birth control services and medicine based on "personal beliefs" is abhorrent and rather similar to how Nazis denied economic access to Jews. This is America, a capitalist country, and it is imperative that every American have equal access, otherwise we are simply a fascist state of Orwellian contradiction. If Evangelical far-right Christians can't handle that, then they should move to a country where religious prejudice is enshrined in their culture.

Republicans rant, rave and bitch about excessive lawsuits and then pass laws that invite them.

CE

I agree with everything you've posted here. The only caveat that I would toss into it is that the people responsible for 90% of the social headaches in this country are being elected in record numbers because the people who benefit from progressive policies are either too lazy to vote or dumb enough to vote against anybody who will help the president. The last election would have been funny had it not been true. How is it possible that six out of ten registered voters simply didn't take 20 minutes out of their day to vote?

That's where nonsense like the Indiana law come from. The legislature can correctly assert that they are doing the will of the people who put them in office. And they're not final in that assertion because they're right. They are right in that assertion because they are final. People who don't vote and people who vote based on nonsense they hear on the radio without checking it for themselves deserve everything that comes to them.

[Crystaledwards]

I agree with everything you've posted here. The only caveat that I would toss into it is that the people responsible for 90% of the social headaches in this country are being elected in record numbers because the people who benefit from progressive policies are either too lazy to vote or dumb enough to vote against anybody who will help the president. The last election would have been funny had it not been true. How is it possible that six out of ten registered voters simply didn't take 20 minutes out of their day to vote?

That's where nonsense like the Indiana law come from. The legislature can correctly assert that they are doing the will of the people who put them in office. And they're not final in that assertion because they're right. They are right in that assertion because they are final. People who don't vote and people who vote based on nonsense they hear on the radio without checking it for themselves deserve everything that comes to them.

Ah yes, I also believe far too much of the electorate is dumb, easily swayed by sound bites, catch phrases and conned by media savvy carnies posing as political pundits and far right politicians who use "Family Values" and "Race Baiting" to keep their dwindling white base invested in the Republican dog and pony show.

Voter suppression and absurd and illegal identification laws tend to keep a portion of the Democrat base at home and one can't really blame voters from taking a "why bother" approach after repeatedly being harassed and blocked from doing what is every American Citizen's right.

How is a law that allows discrimination even legal? Using GOP logic on this one, if a Muslim-owned business didn't want to serve Christians because they are infidels, it would be OK? Right? It's funny how the phrase "freedom of religion" has become a shorthand for "freedom to behave like a bigot and discriminate against a minority I don't approve of".

The GOP crazy train left the station for good the day Barack Obama was elected President. The only way to stop them is to vote them out of office.

CE

[soulster]

The religious freaks should start their own country. They can have the deep south, but we keep Florida.

[Jerry Oz]

Or at least we keep the women from Florida. But I digress. When I asked why it was okay to put suppression on the right to vote, but not to legislate safety measures or accountability into gun ownership I was told that the voter ID laws were to 'keep the illegals from voting'. I didn't let it go with that BS answer, though and asked him why the focus was voting with fewer than 100 documented convictions of voter fraud this century and tens of thousands of murders via misuse of guns.

He reiterated his first answer, as if the great threat to our nation's long-term existence is a handful of 'illegals' voting. He never told me who these people are or who he thought they were voting for. In my personal opinion, you're probably more likely to have hardheaded Cubans attempting to vote in Florida than Mexicans trying to vote in Texas and Cuban nationals are much more likely to vote GOP. So we know from that alone that his answer may be what Glenn Beck said, but it's utter BS.

[Crystaledwards]

Governor Pence hasn't attempted to explain why the state legislators felt the need to enact a state law that essentially is redundant to the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights. Pence was asked repeatedly by George Stephanopolous at the weekend whether the bill enabled business owners to discriminate, and he refused every single opportunity to give a yes or no answer.

Pence seems to be completely confused about the legislation he signed. He seems not to understand why it was enacted, and for whom the strengthened protections apply. He comes across as either flat out stupid or completely robotic, unwilling or unable to step outside very narrow talking points handed to him by his advisers. The man is a puppet for the GOP and now he’s backpedaling on the Religious Freedom Restoration bill that he just signed. I can’t wait for the Tea Party and Evangelical far right Republicans to eat him up and spit him out. Then again, he could be the next a Republican VP Candidate in the 2016 election. He is as dense as Sarah Palin which would make him the ideal running mate.

CE

[Crystaledwards]

The religious freaks should start their own country. They can have the deep south, but we keep Florida.

I wouldn't thank you for Florida. A gun-toting, stand your ground state that is steeped in bigotry and discrimination.

CE

[RobertZ]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...p_ref=politics

I am tired of people confusing the right to worship as you choose and the right to discriminate. It is horseshit wrapped up in a carefully chosen passage from the bible. I would never dream of coming into your house of worship and telling you how to worship. When you open a business you should be required to serve the public and not discriminate. So now under this new law you can refuse to serve Gay and Lesbian customers in the State of Indiana. Is the refusal to serve Blacks, Jews and Muslims also accepted under this bigoted law? I find organized religion and religious fanatics quite repugnant.

Thank goodness I am Agnostic, but If there is a Jesus, he must be weeping today at the hate his name is being cloaked in.

CE

You nailed it; thanks!

[antceleb12]

A good friend of mine is gay but works at a church and is attending seminary school next fall to become a pastor.

Another friend of mine dyes her swear, swears like a sailor, and is a profound activist for human rights - and is studying to become a rabbi.

Another friend of mine belongs to a church where the pastor is a lesbian.

I passed a church in MAINE once where they flew a rainbow flag outside their door.

While there are a lot of people out there with antiquated and misguided ideas of who can be a devout religious follower or what one has to do to be considered a child of God, followers of these faiths are increasingly varied in their practices and beliefs. Thankfully, more and more theists are rejecting the bigoted judgmental practices practiced by many - but not all - Bible-thumpers.

[soulster]

But, they are small in number in comparison to the usual, familiar christians.

[Jerry Oz]

The question people are not asking is why pass this bill 20 years after the federal bill became law? An Indianapolis baker closed shop recently after drawing fire for refusing to service a gay couple. Contrary to the governor's insistence to the contrary, this [[combined with court decisions allowing far people to marry) is why they want to "preserve religious freedom in Indiana".

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/03...t-of-business/

[soulster]

The question people are not asking is why pass this bill 20 years after the federal bill became law?

They are asking it. The reason republicans are doubling down now is more of a protest against what they see is a tide of legalizing gay marriage, and their objection to gays, in general. It's their way of fighting that change they hate. No one knows how the SCOTUS will rule in two months, but it has them scared.

The other part of this is that [[mostly white) christians feel like they are being persecuted. It's like they are tail wagging the dog. In the bible, it says christians will be persecuted in the final days, and most of them think these are the final days, so they fight. More to the point, they have always been used to being the kings of the western world, and all of a sudden, with a president "of color", Mexican immigration, Muslims being recognized for their religious differences, gays being allowed to legally marry, police authority being challenged, are seen by them as their diminishing power and dominance. All of it makes it easier for them to fight if they see those groups they are fighting as inferior to them.

[Jerry Oz]

Realizing that their majority will end in the next 30 years has many afraid. They're also afraid of cultural and racial blending. They see their kids listening to Jay-Z and Beyonce and their grandchildren are being increasingly born with darker skin and this worries them. There are only two other barriers that cause them fear: religion and sexual orientation. They're circling the wagons on their false version of Christianity by lashing out against non-Christians [[who they perceive to be anti-Christian). And they're doubling down in defense of heterosexuality, even though the Bible condemns a lot more behavior than that.

They should be more worried about intolerance, cheating spouses, and folks who lie on their taxes since the Bible is against them as well. Oh, wait...

[soulster]

Realizing that their majority will end in the next 30 years has many afraid.

Bingo! You said in one sentence that took me a paragraph to say.

And they're doubling down in defense of heterosexuality, even though the Bible condemns a lot more behavior than that.

Are you sure you don't want to rephrase that for clarity?

[Jerry Oz]

My next paragraph attempted to do that. The Ten Commandments lists the laws laid out by God. They don't prioritize one as a greater offense than any other. Later, in the Bible we learn that 'we all sin and fall short of the glory of God' and that it's a mistake to find fault in others when we have greater faults within ourselves.

Consequently, the role of the believer is to evolve from within to avoid becoming a slave to sin. By attacking others, we take high ground on morality that we cannot lay claim to. If you cheat on your taxes, you are a sinner. Should you be denied your rights in secular society because of it? How about if you cheated on your husband or wife? Did you lie about somebody [[maybe said something about the president that you knew was untrue in order to make someone not like him)? When that bum asked you for a dollar, did you tell him you didn't have it when you had a pocket full of change that you neither counted nor needed?

All I'm saying is why go halfway in your 'religious' expression? Condemn all sin and refuse service to all sinners if that's truly your conviction. Just don't be pissed off when some like-minded brother decides that you aren't worthy either.

[soulster]

Seems to me most of these so-called christians are fueled by hate. I guess they learned nothing from Jesus.

[Jerry Oz]

Have you never wondered why there are so many denominations? Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopalians? All to interpret [[twist) the Word to their own ends? Or why Jesus is commonly represented with blonde hair and blue eyes? Mankind is so messed up, the truth is not sufficient. In order to comfort themselves, they twisted the Word and convinced themselves that God shares the image of man instead of the other way around.

How do you suppose they justified keeping my people in chains? They are clearly closer to God since his son was one of them. I accept no representation of God. It is presumptive and contrary to what the book contains.

These people who are 'protecting' religious freedom are not Christians. They are a bunch of hypocrites and they are below contempt for the lies they tell.

[soulster]

It's no wonder that i'm close to declaring myself a non-christian. I don't think you have to be a christian to accept Jesus, as christians only came to be after his death.

[Jerry Oz]

Religion should be personal thing. When it becomes organized, you have people who are willing to use it to the same ends as power-hungry people in every other institution. The problem is that there are many who are sincere and lead from conviction. The only way to be sure is to gauge their words against the Bible itself. If you question them and they don't pass muster, then you should move along. I love my pastor, but that doesn't mean that I'll agree 100% with what he tells me.

There are plenty of snakes out there and they know that the easiest way to steal is to do it in the name of God. In addition to that, there are many politicians that realize the same thing. The first thing that turns me against a pol is when he/she starts quoting the Bible. I might feel differently if I sat down and talked to them for an hour or so, but I refuse to be manipulated by someone pandering that way.

And when they talk about saving the unborn, it irks me. I live in Ohio and we have the dichotomy of being one of the most well-educated states while also having one of the highest infant mortality rates in the country[[?). Save the ones that are already here before you save the ones that nobody wants. It's not about religion, though. It's about stirring up emotions to get people to vote for someone who really has no platform worth supporting beyond social bullying.