"1960's MOTOWN - MONO Versus STEREO"

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 10-31-2014, 01:37 AM

Stereo buffs in general seem to prefer ANY recorded material in Stereo format ONLY, regardless of the genre, the artist, the song, or the mix. Me? I like whichever mix sounds best. I’ve always preferred Mono when it comes to Phil Spector and the early-to-mid-1960's Girl-Group genre in general. The mono mixes are powerful, whereas the stereo mixes usually lost something important in the translation, leaving much to be desired. Back in the day, I usually preferred Motown in mono, as occasional stereo mixes sounded strange to my ear. Now that I’m [[much) older, however, I find myself preferring Motown’s stereo mixes over the mono mixes. As much as I love the "Cellarful Of Motown" previously-unreleased CD series, I find myself wishing that the stereo mixes were available. For the most part, Motown’s Stereo mixes are hot, especially given the excellent remastering quality that we’ve come to know thanks to Harry, Andy, George, and Keith. There are a few exceptions, however, where I insist upon the Mono mixes for my listening pleasure. Those exceptions, followed by the reasons why, are as follows:

1) MARVIN GAYE & KIM WESTON - "What Good Am I Without You". The Mono mix utilizes handclaps which, to me, are really hot. The Stereo mix, for some reason, deletes the handclaps leaving a void, at least to my ear.

2) MARY WELLS - "Honey Boy". Again, the Mono mix contains handclaps, adding magic to the Motown mix, whereas the Stereo version deletes them.

3) THE SUPREMES - "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart". The mono mix is HOT, whereas the Stereo mix contains different, unidentifiable instrumentation which I've always found somewhat annoying.

4) MARVIN GAYE - "Little Darling [[I Need You)". The Mono version contains strings, which I really love in that song. The Stereo version, however, deletes those gorgeous string passages, leaving the song sounding empty and barren.

[I have to wonder why Motown would delete some of its most identifiable trademarks [[handclaps and strings) from it’s stereo mixes. Maybe that’s a question that Ralph or Russ could answer?]

And, last but not least, the most noticeable difference between a Motown Mono mix versus a Stereo mix:

5) MARTHA & THE VANDELLAS - "Jimmy Mack". As previously discussed on the Motown Forum a couple months ago, the hit Mono 45 version is a newer recording with handclaps and a HOT, jump-out-at-you mix. The Stereo version, however, is a slower, totally different recording from a couple of years earlier. [NOTE: If any of you recall "The Motown Story" 5-disc LP boxed set, released back in 1970 or so, which contained interviews by each Motown artist as the intro of their respective song played, I’ll never forget Martha Reeves enthusiastically reminiscing about "Jimmy Mack" and how it had the "grooviest beat" of all of the Vandellas’ records. And then, instead of the hit 45 Mono version, the alternate Stereo version kicks in with it’s slower, lackluster, very un-groovy beat. Talk about anticlimactic! I’ve always felt sorry for poor Martha and wondered how she must have felt the first time she heard the playback of her interview segment for "Jimmy Mack" on "The Motown Story". She was probably just as shocked and floored as the rest of us were!

How about the rest of you Motowners? Do you have any particular preference for Motown Mono versus Stereo? Would love to hear your opinions. - Gary

**soulster** · 10-31-2014, 01:57 AM

[QUOTE=Philles/Motown Gary;256552]

3) THE SUPREMES - "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart". The mono mix is HOT, whereas the Stereo mix contains different instrumentation which I've always found somewhat annoying

Hi, Gary! Can you articulate what differences in instrumentation youhear between these two mixes? I have not noticed any. In general, I can tell you that many times the reason you don't hear things in the stereo mix that appear on the mono mix is because of the way something was recorded. Take "I've Passed This Way Before" by Jimmy Ruffin [[RIP): the stereo mix is missing the choir and orchestra. My guess is that the basic tracks were mixed down to mono another track to free up other tracks for recording those extra parts, then all mixed to mono for the single. I don't know when the track was recorded, but it could have been before the studio went to eight-track. Or, there could have been some other reason the stereo mix doesn't have those extra elements.

How about the rest of you Motowners? Do you have any particular preference for Motown Mono versus Stereo? Would love to hear your opinions. - Gary

There are numerous examples of differences between stereo and mono. "Ball Of Confusion [[That's What The World Is Today)" by The Temptations is another good example. "You Can't Hurry Love" by The Supremes is yet another. Sometimes the differences aren't about the vocals or instrumentation, but about the sonics, like reverb or tape generation.

I have always preferred the mono mixes, and I consider them the standard by which the stereo mixes should have been based. For me to like or prefer a stereo mix, it has to contain the same elements as the mono mix, right down to the fade. There are stereo mixes I can't even listen to because they weren't done well, or do not resemble the hit version. This not only goes for Motown, but Stax, Atlantic, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Simon & Garfunkel, you name it. In fact, it has been my goal, as a collector, to acquire every hit single I ever liked in it's original mono form, if it differs from the stereo mix.

**kenneth** · 10-31-2014, 02:39 AM

I think most of the Marvelettes singles sounded much better in Mono, especially the early Wanda-led tracks such as "Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead" and "You're My Remedy." Even back in the day after buying "Marvelettes Greatest Hits" [[one of my first LP purchases ever, and in Mono) and later replacing it with a Stereo copy, I was shocked to hear how different the songs sounded. I had no conception of different "mixes" until then. The mono mixes were vibrant and had much more beat in the mix; by comparison, the stereo mixes sounded thin. The "Remedy" mono mix has Wanda's voice with some echo on it which I think suits the song well. And the "Danger" mono mix has much more piano up front, courtesy of Ivy Jo Hunter, and it gives it more immediacy, a much more sinister sound suiting the lyrics much better than the tepid stereo mix.

**Sotosound** · 10-31-2014, 06:48 AM

An example of a virtually unlistenable stereo mix [[IMHO) is "Reach Out I'll Be There" by Four Tops.

The drums are buried deep in the RH channel and the tambourines are drowned in reverb in the LH channel.

How an engineer could create such a poor mix is beyond me.

Conversely, I love the stereo mix of "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted" by Jimmy Ruffin. There''s a weight and majesty to the production, and Jimmy's soulful vocals are shown in all of their glory.

As a general rule, but with some exceptions, my ears tell me that 60s Motown ballads tend to sound better in stereo, and uptempo 60s Motown tends to sound better in mono.

It might be that with uptempo tracks - where the rhythm is driving the track - we need to hear the rhythm section right upfront whereas with ballads - where the vocalist is driving the track - we need to hear the vocals right upfront.

Has anyone else found this to be the case?

**thanxal** · 10-31-2014, 08:03 AM

3) THE SUPREMES - "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart". The mono mix is HOT, whereas the Stereo mix contains different instrumentation which I've always found somewhat annoying

There are at least three common mixes of LILAIIMH. The first is the mono. The second is the stereo mix for the Greatest Hits LP and most CD reissues. Then there is the third, which is a stereo mix for the stereo version of A Go Go with what sounds to be a kazoo and some extra percussion. I have always liked the third version the best as it adds some necessary flair. I've always felt the song to be under-orchestrated and can imagine it with far more percussive punch. The mono version is just too flat for my preference. I sincerely hope to hear more versions once we get the expanded edition of A Go Go.

**longtimefan** · 10-31-2014, 09:35 AM

Thanxal,
Could you tell me which CDs these three mixes appear on? I'd appreciate it!

**Sotosound** · 10-31-2014, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by thanxal

There are at least three common mixes of LILAIIMH. The first is the mono. The second is the stereo mix for the Greatest Hits LP and most CD reissues. Then there is the third, which is a stereo mix for the stereo version of A Go Go with what sounds to be a kazoo and some extra percussion. I have always liked the third version the best as it adds some necessary flair. I've always felt the song to be under-orchestrated and can imagine it with far more percussive punch. The mono version is just too flat for my preference. I sincerely hope to hear more versions once we get the expanded edition of A Go Go.

My current go-to version is the instrumental mix on CD2 of the Deluxe Edition of "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown".

That mix just kicks for me.

**thanxal** · 10-31-2014, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

Thanxal,
Could you tell me which CDs these three mixes appear on? I'd appreciate it!

1. Mono = 50th Anniversary Singles Box Set
2. Stereo Mix 1 = Supremes Gold
3. Stereo Mix 2 = A Go Go [[but that's been out of print a while) and 25th Anniversary Set [[also long out of print); not sure of a newer CD with it, but you can get it on iTunes if you search for it. It links to the Japan reissue.

and...

My current go-to version is the instrumental mix on CD2 of the Deluxe Edition of "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown".

Could not agree more. I love that version.

**kenneth** · 10-31-2014, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Sotosound

It might be that with uptempo tracks - where the rhythm is driving the track - we need to hear the rhythm section right upfront whereas with ballads - where the vocalist is driving the track - we need to hear the vocals right upfront.

Has anyone else found this to be the case?

I think that's a very reasonable theory!

**rovereab** · 10-31-2014, 02:40 PM

My thoughts on tracks that spring to mind:

As mentioned above the stereo mix of the Four Tops Reach Out is very poor given the classic nature of the song, BG should have forced a remix! For example, just listen to how the tambourines are louder at 0:44 for the duration of the section then at at 1:32 they are louder for only half of the section and then at 2:36 they are not louder at all for the section. The mono mix is much more even sounding overall.

I hate the stereo mix of There's A Ghost In My House from the very start with the overbearing backing singers and weak drum presence in the mix. The mono version is so much more "driven".

I also hate the stereo mix of Walk Away Renee with the intrusive piano that doesn't gel with the song. Like 'Ghost. the mono version presents the song much more effectively.

The stereo version of Going Down For The Third Time is almost unlistenable to me in comparison with the superb mono version. However, Diana's voice should have been more upfront in the mono mix for it to be ideal but it's fantastic overall - should have been an A-side.

The mono mix/edit of Stoned Love is very well executed in terms of clever reuse of an segment of the song and the clarity of the handclap and drum sections of the song. With the editing being barely obvious it's a shame that the violins come in so abruptly with the final edit at 2:23. The stereo version just doesn't seem so focussed in terms of the overall mix to me.

I prefer the mono mix of Road Runner on the Ultimate Collection to the mono mix on the Hitsville box set and the 2 stereo mixes that I am familiar with. The Ultimate Collection version has so much more presence to my ears.

The mono mix of You're All I Need To Get By [[Marvin & Tammi) has a superb overall quality of voice to instrument sound levels. Whereas the drums on most mono mixes are more prominent they blend in with the other instruments and vocals in a way that totally suits the overall feeling of this song. The stereo mix is just ordinary in comparison.

The mono mix of Back In My Arms again on the Ultimate Collection has so much more presence than either the stereo or the mono mixes on the expanded More Hits.

The mono mix of Come Round Here I'm The One You Need has much more presence than the weak stereo mix.

The mono mix of Love Is Like An Itching on the Ultimate Collection has much more presence than stereo mixes of the song. Perhaps down to difference reverb levels?

The mono mix of Reflections has a "lag" at 2:30 whereas, what seems to be an edit, it is much tighter on the stereo mix. Overall, for once I prefer the stereo mix!

I'll have a think about other songs

**bradsupremes** · 10-31-2014, 04:36 PM

The mono mix of "I'll Keep Holding On" is 100 times better than the bland stereo mix. The mono has a driving power and force with the drums that is almost nonexistent in the stereo.

What I would love for Universal/Motown to do is do new stereo mixes of these awesome mono mixes especially Marvin Gaye's "Little Darling" which needs strings in the stereo.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 10-31-2014, 05:44 PM

[QUOTE=soulster;256553]

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Hi, Gary! Can you articulate what differences in instrumentation youhear between these two mixes? I have not noticed any. In general, I can tell you that many times the reason you don't hear things in the stereo mix that appear on the mono mix is because of the way something was recorded. Take "I've Passed This Way Before" by Jimmy Ruffin [[RIP): the stereo mix is missing the choir and orchestra. My guess is that the basic tracks were mixed down to mono another track to free up other tracks for recording those extra parts, then all mixed to mono for the single. I don't know when the track was recorded, but it could have been before the studio went to eight-track. Or, there could have been some other reason the stereo mix doesn't have those extra elements.

There are numerous examples of differences between stereo and mono. "Ball Of Confusion [[That's What The World Is Today)" by The Temptations is another good example. "You Can't Hurry Love" by The Supremes is yet another. Sometimes the differences aren't about the vocals or instrumentation, but about the sonics, like reverb or tape generation.

I have always preferred the mono mixes, and I consider them the standard by which the stereo mixes should have been based. For me to like or prefer a stereo mix, it has to contain the same elements as the mono mix, right down to the fade. There are stereo mixes I can't even listen to because they weren't done well, or do not resemble the hit version. This not only goes for Motown, but Stax, Atlantic, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Simon & Garfunkel, you name it. In fact, it has been my goal, as a collector, to acquire every hit single I ever liked in it's original mono form, if it differs from the stereo mix.

Hey Soulster! Long time no see! To answer your question regarding the Stereo version of The Supremes "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" which I personally find strange and annoying, it's the version on The Supremes "A Go-Go" album/CD. The mono album was like the 45 version, but the Stereo album/CD version contains the additional instrumentation which I cannot identify to save me. [[The Supremes "A Go-Go" album has been issued/reissued on CD countless times , and always in Stereo. To check it out, you can use the original two-fer CD from the 1980's, or the 1990's import two-fer from the U.K., or the more recent Japanese and French imports. They all contain that strange, unique stereo mix.

I know what you mean about The Supremes "You Can't Hurry Love". In this case, however, I much prefer the Stereo mix, as the 45 mix contains a ukulele which seems kinda hoakey now compared to the Stereo mix which sounds electrified and literally JUMPS OUT at you!

I just thought of another major difference -- the Mono album version of The Marvelettes "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" contains an entire additional verse after the instrumental break near the end, which the Mono 45 and the Stereo album versions don't have.

If we take the time to analyze Motown Mono vs. Stereo, the list could go on and on. I remember reading, years ago, that one of the Motown producers was quoted as saying they spent days and sometimes weeks at a time perfecting their Motown mono 45 mixes, whereas they completed the stereo album mixes in a matter of hours. I'll bet Ralph and Russ could verify that as well. - Gary

**soulster** · 10-31-2014, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

I know what you mean about The Supremes "You Can't Hurry Love". In this case, however, I much prefer the Stereo mix, as the 45 mix contains a ukulele which seems kinda hoakey now compared to the Stereo mix which sounds electrified and literally JUMPS OUT at you!

Oh, OK, that's called a vibraphone. I like 'em. Jazz-fusion artist Roy Ayers is famous for playing them, too.

I just thought of another major difference -- the Mono album version of The Marvelettes "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" contains an entire additional verse after the instrumental break near the end, which the Mono 45 and the Stereo album versions don't have.

I never heard the mono album version. I was aware of additional lyrics, though. I love that single.

If we take the time to analyze Motown Mono vs. Stereo, the list could go on and on. I remember reading, years ago, that one of the Motown producers was quoted as saying they spent days and sometimes weeks at a time perfecting their Motown mono 45 mixes, whereas they completed the stereo album mixes in a matter of hours. I'll bet Ralph and Russ could verify that as well. - Gary

That's absolutely correct! That is why I always give more weight to the mono mixes because those were the ones they worked hard on, and wanted the singles to sound like. Motown didn't really start caring about stereo until around late 1967, along with the rock world, but as we know, they kept doing dedicated mono mixes as late as 1972.

**BayouMotownMan** · 10-31-2014, 08:59 PM

My observations on mono vs stereo:

FOUR TOPS
Without The One You Love-mono version is superior and extended
Something About You-mono version far more explosive. Stereo version
seems uneven. Mono version is also extended. Bass drum is
vibrant in mono mix
It's All In The Game-again mono version is superior, alternate lead and
more backing vocals
In These Changing Times-Don't know why mono version did sell, it's
quite powerful. Complete new Levi lead

MARTHA & THE VANDELLAS

Quicksand-mono version is explosive, especially the into
In My Lonely Room-mono version has cleaner opening
Nowhere To Run-best version is stereo mix from Dance Party lp
You've Been In Love Too Long-mono has drum brought out
My Baby Loves Me-mono mix has more strings and drums
I'm Ready For Love-mono mix has strings, stereo only has flute
I Promise To Wait My Love-mono version has funkier Martha opening
vocal
Honey Love-mono single mix is extended and more powerful

TEMPTATIONS
My Girl-Mono mix wins with David giving an extended fade
All I Need-First version is David solo, Tempts come in later than stereo
Psychedelic Shack-more sound effects and bass on mono mix

MARVELETTES

Here I Am Baby-Cleaner mix than stereo
Gonna Hold On Long As I Can-mono mix is grittier
A Breath Taking Guy-mono mix has a couple of clever edits

JIMMY RUFFIN

Don't You Miss Me A Little Bit-mono mix has a stronger intro

I'm sure there are others I'll think of later

**soulster** · 10-31-2014, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

TEMPTATIONS
My Girl-Mono mix wins with David giving an extended fade

Or, one can say that the stereo mix was faded too early. Since the mono mix was done first, that is the case.

All I Need-First version is David solo, Tempts come in later than stereo

I like that, too.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-01-2014, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by soulster

Oh, OK, that's called a vibraphone. I like 'em. Jazz-fusion artist Roy Ayers is famous for playing them, too.I never heard the mono album version. I was aware of additional lyrics, though. I love that single.

Soulster, I know what a Vibraphone is. Vince Montana of The Salsoul Orchestra is king of the Vibes on those great Philly-Sound recordings. The intro on the 45 mono mix of "You Can’t Hurry Love" sure sounds like a ukelele to me. But that’s not the mystery instrument I was referring to on the "Supremes A Go-Go" stereo version of "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart." One of the posters described it as sounding like a kazoo. Damned if I know!

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-01-2014, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Sotosound

An example of a virtually unlistenable stereo mix [[IMHO) is "Reach Out I'll Be There" by Four Tops.

Sotosound, your humble opinion of the inferior mix on the Stereo version of "Reach Out I’ll Be There" is shared by many, including me. In fact, that atrocious mix is what temporarily turned me off to Motown Stereo back in the day. Of course, Motown’s stereo talents greatly improved soon after, but "Reach Out’s" stereo treatment was quite horrid and amateurish, to say the least -- very unlike Motown. Again, I wonder if Ralph or Russ have any idea of what happened and why.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-01-2014, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by rovereab

The stereo version of Going Down For The Third Time is almost unlistenable to me in comparison with the superb mono version. However, Diana's voice should have been more upfront in the mono mix for it to be ideal but it's fantastic overall - should have been an A-side.

Rovereab, thanks for bringing up "Going Down For The Third Time". I had meant to mention it myself but completely forgot. I don’t recall offhand which was the Mono mix and which was the Stereo mix, but on one of the mixes, the backing instrumental track is really HOT. Unfortunately, Mary and Flo’s back-up vocals are absent from certain parts of the song. The other mix has the complete back-up vocals throughout, but that, unfortunately, is the mix with the less exciting backing instrumental track. If we could put the girls’ complete back-up vocals on the mix with the hot instrumental track, we’d have the best of both worlds with a perfect mix to show for it. It sounds like a great project for Harry, Andy, George, and Keith!

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-01-2014, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

My observations on mono vs stereo:

MARTHA & THE VANDELLAS

Quicksand-mono version is explosive, especially the into

I'm Ready For Love-mono mix has strings, stereo only has flute

BayouMotownMan, I had also meant to mention Martha & The Vandellas’ "Quicksand". The most noticeable difference to me is the drum solo near the end. The drums on the Mono mix are HOT with echo and they jump out at you, whereas on the Stereo version, the drums are without echo and are pretty lackluster by comparison.

Something else I just thought of is the Stereo version of Martha’s "Heat Wave" and "I’m Ready For Love", both of which have an extended instrumental break which I’ve never gotten used to. I’ve gotta go with the Mono versions on those two tracks.

And, speaking of flutes [[of which I’m not a fan), the Mono version of Marvin & Tammi’s "Ain’t Nothing Like The Real Thing" utilizes a flute in the intro, whereas the stereo version uses strings, which I much prefer.

One more Supremes track which bugs me in Stereo is "My World Is Empty Without You". The mono version uses Strings, but the Stereo version replaces the strings with an organ. I much prefer the mono version with strings.

If you think of any more, let us know.

**soulster** · 11-01-2014, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Soulster, I know what a Vibraphone is. Vince Montana of The Salsoul Orchestra is king of the Vibes on those great Philly-Sound recordings. The intro on the 45 mono mix of "You Can’t Hurry Love" sure sounds like a ukelele to me.

To me it sounds like an electric guitar tuned to about the same key as Curtis Mayfield used.

But that’s not the mystery instrument I was referring to on the "Supremes A Go-Go" stereo version of "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart." One of the posters described it as sounding like a kazoo. Damned if I know!

Oh that sound! It sounds very much like a saxophone that was recorded with a lot of reverberation, but was mixed out. The reason we still hear it is because of leakage. I'm thinking it was adjacent to, or on the same track with the vibes. They could not mix it out, so they decided not to use the vibes on the mono single mix during the breakdown part. I'll bet my last money that's what happened, and I don't have much money now!

**soulster** · 11-01-2014, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Sotosound, your humble opinion of the inferior mix on the Stereo version of "Reach Out I’ll Be There" is shared by many, including me. In fact, that atrocious mix is what temporarily turned me off to Motown Stereo back in the day. Of course, Motown’s stereo talents greatly improved soon after, but "Reach Out’s" stereo treatment was quite horrid and amateurish, to say the least -- very unlike Motown. Again, I wonder if Ralph or Russ have any idea of what happened and why.

It sounds like the similar situation with "Love Child", why we don't get that initial snare drum slam on the intro like we do on the mono mix.

Remember, stereo wasn't really on anyone's mind back then. Pop music was thought of as something temporary that wouldn't last forever. It was about the here and now. People thought the music would be forgotten in a few months, never to be heard again. Singles were only a way to make fast money. They were focused on the mono 45s, and the AM radio sound. They did the mono mixes in the main mixing room with one large Altec speaker on the wall. Those stereo mixes were more often than not just thrown together at the last minute when they wanted to release a whole album. It's not like it was in the 70s, when the album was done first, then they lifted singles off of it.

**thanxal** · 11-01-2014, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary
One more Supremes track which bugs me in Stereo is "My World Is Empty Without You". The mono version uses Strings, but the Stereo version replaces the strings with an organ. I much prefer the mono version with strings.

I followed you up to this point. I listened to both with and without headphones and can't hear this difference [[but I often hear the Andantes in odd places, such as the grocery story, underwater, at the top of the Washington Monument, so it may just be my ears).

**mysterysinger** · 11-01-2014, 02:39 PM

Great thread guys n' gals.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-01-2014, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by mysterysinger

Great thread guys n' gals.

Thank you, mysterysinger. I thought it might be fun! - Gary

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-01-2014, 09:52 PM

Another example of my preferring Motown's Mono mix over the Stereo mix is The Marvelettes "Don't Mess With Bill". For some reason, the bass intro on the Stereo version is all fuzzy and distorted, as though the master tape was damaged and wrinkled in that spot. The bass intro in the Mono mix sounds fine, as does the rest of the Stereo mix. Because of the defective intro on the Stereo version, I've gotta go with the Mono mix. Anybody else ever notice the distorted Stereo intro?

**sansradio** · 11-01-2014, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Another example of my preferring Motown's Mono mix over the Stereo mix is The Marvelettes "Don't Mess With Bill". For some reason, the bass intro on the Stereo version is all fuzzy and distorted, as though the master tape was damaged and wrinkled in that spot. The bass intro in the Mono mix sounds fine, as does the rest of the Stereo mix. Because of the defective intro on the Stereo version, I've gotta go with the Mono mix. Anybody else ever notice the distorted Stereo intro?

Sure have, Gary. Pity it's the only mix I own. Where's the mono mix found these days, mp3 or otherwise?

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-02-2014, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by sansradio

Sure have, Gary. Pity it's the only mix I own. Where's the mono mix found these days, mp3 or otherwise?

Sansradio, the Mono version of The Marvelettes’ "Don’t Mess With Bill" can be found on the following CD’s:

1) Various Artists - The Complete Motown Singles - Vol. 5 [[1965)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-M...singles+vol.+5
　

2) The Marvelettes - Deliver: The Singles [[1961-1971)

http://www.amazon.com/Deliver-Single...3A+the+singles

3) The Marvelettes - Forever: The Complete Motown Albums [[Vol. 1) [[which also contains the Stereo version as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Forever-Comple...+albums+vol.+1

Hope this helps. - Gary

**sansradio** · 11-02-2014, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Sansradio, the Mono version of The Marvelettes’ "Don’t Mess With Bill" can be found on the following CD’s:

1) Various Artists - The Complete Motown Singles - Vol. 5 [[1965)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-M...singles+vol.+5
　

2) The Marvelettes - Deliver: The Singles [[1961-1971)

http://www.amazon.com/Deliver-Single...3A+the+singles

3) The Marvelettes - Forever: The Complete Motown Albums [[Vol. 1) [[which also contains the Stereo version as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Forever-Comple...+albums+vol.+1

Hope this helps. - Gary

Much obliged, Gary.

smark21 · 11-02-2014, 11:35 AM

Having recently purchased both of the Marvelettes box sets which includes mono and stereo versions of many of their hits/single releases [[as well as stereo and mono versions of the Pink Album and Sophisticated Soul), it's interesting to compare the two mixes. By and large I prefer the mono versions, such as You're My Remedy, Playboy, Mr. Postman, and Too Many Fish. There's just more pop/power to those mixes. Still it's fun to hear the changes from mono to stereo in these versions.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-02-2014, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by sansradio

Much obliged, Gary.

You're welcome, sansradio. Any time.

**PORTART** · 11-02-2014, 02:26 PM

Hi Gary

As I now listen 90% of the time to my music with headphones, I look always to find the stereo version of a song which is like comparing surround sound with mono. Stereo wins most of the time. In my collection I would say in the majority of cases the stereo version of the same song works much better. Unfortunately many stereo versions are lacking in the mix which is always a dissapointment. "Love is like an itching in my heart" "Bernadette" "Come round here [[I'm the one you want)" are examples of stereo versions that do not work.

**soulster** · 11-02-2014, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Another example of my preferring Motown's Mono mix over the Stereo mix is The Marvelettes "Don't Mess With Bill". For some reason, the bass intro on the Stereo version is all fuzzy and distorted, as though the master tape was damaged and wrinkled in that spot. The bass intro in the Mono mix sounds fine, as does the rest of the Stereo mix. Because of the defective intro on the Stereo version, I've gotta go with the Mono mix. Anybody else ever notice the distorted Stereo intro?

I would if I owned it.

I only have the mono single mix. Sounds like it could be tape damage.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-02-2014, 05:02 PM

Hey, Soulster! You've never heard the Stereo version? Every Stereo copy of "Don't Mess With Bill" that I've ever owned [[whether it be The Marvelettes "Greatest Hits" or any of their other many re-hash hit collections) has included this same defect in the bass intro. As I stated before, I, too, think it's a defect in the Stereo master tape. If you really want to experience it for yourself, I guess you could download that one track from The Marvelettes "Complete Motown Albums" [[Vol. 1) for a buck or so. Be careful, though -- "Don't Mess With Bill" is on there twice -- once in Stereo from The Marvelettes "Greatest Hits" segment of the CD boxed set, and then again in Mono in the singles segment of the box. The defective bass sound is annoying as all hell. It's a shame that it had to happen to such a great track as "Don't Mess With Bill" -- an absolute Smokey Robinson/Wanda Rogers/Andantes masterpiece.

**soulster** · 11-02-2014, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by PORTART

Hi Gary

As I now listen 90% of the time to my music with headphones, I look always to find the stereo version of a song which is like comparing surround sound with mono. Stereo wins most of the time. In my collection I would say in the majority of cases the stereo version of the same song works much better. Unfortunately many stereo versions are lacking in the mix which is always a dissapointment. "Love is like an itching in my heart" "Bernadette" "Come round here [[I'm the one you want)" are examples of stereo versions that do not work.

How do you deal with the fact that a lot of the stereo mixes don't resemble the mono singles?

I don't use headphones. They don't present a realistic stereo sound, and they distort the frequency response and depth because the transducer is coupled against the ear. Besides, wearing headphones is the best way to ruin your hearing because they are right against the ear...unless you are using Stax headphones, which aren't really headphones at all. The other reason I don't wear headphones is because that's not how the recordings were mixed or mastered. They used speakers.

**soulster** · 11-02-2014, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Hey, Soulster! You've never heard the Stereo version? Every Stereo copy of "Don't Mess With Bill" that I've ever owned [[whether it be The Marvelettes "Greatest Hits" or any of their other many re-hash hit collections) has included this same defect in the bass intro. As I stated before, I, too, think it's a defect in the Stereo master tape. If you really want to experience it for yourself, I guess you could download that one track from The Marvelettes "Complete Motown Albums" [[Vol. 1) for a buck or so. Be careful, though -- "Don't Mess With Bill" is on there twice -- once in Stereo from The Marvelettes "Greatest Hits" segment of the CD boxed set, and then again in Mono in the singles segment of the box. The defective bass sound is annoying as all hell. It's a shame that it had to happen to such a great track as "Don't Mess With Bill" -- an absolute Smokey Robinson/Wanda Rogers/Andantes masterpiece.

I am frankly not interested in the stereo mix. Thanks, though. Mono is how I heard it as a kid, and I have that 45. I also have the mono mix on two CDs from the 90s.

**PORTART** · 11-03-2014, 02:01 AM

Your points are valid...but! ...this is not a post to the benefits or non benefits of using headphones. Its a fact of life that for some people using headphones is a regular and necessary way to access their music - with this in mind the choice of tracks is decided. The Ghetto blaster over the shoulder is not going to make a comeback just yet. As you rightly point out the music created was not with stereo headphones in mind and the transition of tracks to stereo does not always work, especially over headphones, but when they do work it brings a new life to a song. I would go as far as to say all effort should be made to unearth these stereo treasures which at the least will bring a new generation of listeners to love motown and maybe then later seek out the intended mono version. l respect the purists who after all are staying true to the artists, I also am not a purist who thinks the intended original version should not be tampered with. If a 'slight' remix is needed; remix it. Emphasis on slight. Eventually the inevitable happens as the original collaboraters die off it will be remixed.

**soulster** · 11-03-2014, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by PORTART

Your points are valid...but! ...this is not a post to the benefits or non benefits of using headphones. Its a fact of life that for some people using headphones is a regular and necessary way to access their music - with this in mind the choice of tracks is decided. The Ghetto blaster over the shoulder is not going to make a comeback just yet. As you rightly point out the music created was not with stereo headphones in mind and the transition of tracks to stereo does not always work, especially over headphones, but when they do work it brings a new life to a song. I would go as far as to say all effort should be made to unearth these stereo treasures which at the least will bring a new generation of listeners to love motown and maybe then later seek out the intended mono version. l respect the purists who after all are staying true to the artists, I also am not a purist who thinks the intended original version should not be tampered with. If a 'slight' remix is needed; remix it. Emphasis on slight. Eventually the inevitable happens as the original collaboraters die off it will be remixed.

There is no need to remix anything in the attempt to win over new, younger listeners. Those listeners will be interested in the old music or they won't. Period. No stereo or stereo remixing is going to influence that. It's a fantasy, and an excuse that the producers use to keep working, and for the labels to make people like you spend money.

If you attempt to mix or master on headphones, you will optimize it for headphone listeners only. That cannot work since then, the aural balances will be thrown off, not to mention any soundstage or depth. So, you can forget any success on having such mixes played on the radio, or sold in stores. It would sound messed-up.

In some cases, things can't be remixed for a number of reasons, like the multitracks being lost or legally unobtainable, or simply by the way the song was put together. Now, it is true that today, with digital tools, one can create a stereo mix out of various parts, or even digitally pull apart mono mixes, but the results are often flaky, and not accepted by most reputable labels. Headphone users will just have to deal with this kind of inequality, but I hardly think most of them mind or care.

Now, one can re-balance an existing two-track stereo mix that was created that way because the capability or ability to wasn't there at the time. One can even manipulate a stereo mix with mid-side processing in mastering, and that is routinely done today.

Oh, BTW, I wasn't talking about "ghetto blasters".

**PORTART** · 11-03-2014, 10:24 AM

Wow! should I now gather up my brilliant motown 2 on 1 series stereo CD collection and throw it on the trash.Ultimately it is not so simplistic to say that a person will like the music regardless. Especially the fickle conscious young who will ignore an artist as they are no longer in vogue. Sometimes you have to tell someone a record is good in order for them to take notice. Many a great record has been ignored because it hasn't received airplay or the mix was wrong. Marketing, remixing, promoting can influence your musical taste. Many a good record will not be played or listened to as it lacks those ingredients. It is all about getting that artist back in the public eye and making them fashionable again. Will youtube have one version only of each tune?
I can remember buying a compilation album during the seventies which had a ghastly remixed version of Gloria Gaynors "I will Survive". All snare drums and high hats and extended for about ten minutes. I dont wish for that to happen, just maybe an adjustment in choice of channel for each instrument and decible level adjustments in the mix. Not adding of instruments that were not in the original. If it sounds good to me then what is the problem? You explained perfectly of what can be done with todays technology. It is not about buying blind. The choice is ours to decide if we want to buy.

Regarding headphones: my outside job meant that from morning to midnight headphones was the way I got to listen to music. I would scroll through my local record store and a deciding factor on whether or not I purchased a record was that it was stereo. The mono recording would sound flat in comparison. Personal taste perhaps. I like to differentiate that my post was based on listening through headphones and not through speakers. Dont forget a new market has developed due to the walkman generation.

**soulster** · 11-03-2014, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by PORTART

Many a great record has been ignored because it hasn't received airplay or the mix was wrong.

Well, if the mix is wrong, it's not a good record.

Marketing, remixing, promoting can influence your musical taste.

No, it can't.

Many a good record will not be played or listened to as it lacks those ingredients.

There all kinds of reasons something doesn't get played, and often it's political.

Regarding headphones: my outside job meant that from morning to midnight headphones was the way I got to listen to music. I would scroll through my local record store and a deciding factor on whether or not I purchased a record was that it was stereo. The mono recording would sound flat in comparison. Personal taste perhaps. I like to differentiate that my post was based on listening through headphones and not through speakers. Dont forget a new market has developed due to the walkman generation.

Well, let's go back to my original question before we got sidetracked with the headphones thing: how do you resign the fact the the stereo mixes usually don't resemble the mono hit mixes?

**mysterysinger** · 11-03-2014, 03:47 PM

Do Japanese SHM CDs sound better?

**soulster** · 11-03-2014, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by mysterysinger

Do Japanese SHM CDs sound better?

I think so, but not because of the SHM process.

**Philles/Motown Gary** · 11-04-2014, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by soulster

I am frankly not interested in the stereo mix. Thanks, though. Mono is how I heard it as a kid, and I have that 45. I also have the mono mix on two CDs from the 90s.

Hey Soulster, I wasn't encouraging you to convert to the Stereo mix of "Don't Mess With Bill". I just thought it would give you an opportunity to hear the distorted bass intro, which you said you had never heard before. [[Besides, the Stereo mix is way to shrill for my ears. The Mono version is smooth and, in my opinion, the only way to go for that tune.)

**PORTART** · 11-04-2014, 01:43 AM

If we take current contemporary music you often find multiple remixed versions completely unrecognizable from each other. I suppose it is about changing your mind set and accepting that its going to happen. Just pray they dont butcher your fav song. The original will always be sought after.

**soulster** · 11-04-2014, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary

Hey Soulster, I wasn't encouraging you to convert to the Stereo mix of "Don't Mess With Bill".

I know. No worries.

**soulster** · 11-04-2014, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by PORTART

If we take current contemporary music you often find multiple remixed versions completely unrecognizable from each other. I suppose it is about changing your mind set and accepting that its going to happen. Just pray they dont butcher your fav song. The original will always be sought after.

We aren't finding various mixed of contemporary mixes so much anymore. And, the originals aren't always available. Remixes often have a way of replacing the originals. Look at "Hang On Sloopy" by The McCoys. It almost happened with Sly & The Family Stone's "Hot Fun In The Summertime", but, luckily, Sony Legacy finally saw the wisdom last year to re-issue the original mono hit single mix again so everyone can get to it.

**kenneth** · 11-04-2014, 09:45 AM

I didn't check the whole thread but I think another song which differs greatly is "I'm Ready for Love" by Martha and the Vandellas. The drums especially seem to be buried in the stereo mix but are quite prominent on the mono single version.

And doesn't the stereo version of "Heat Wave" differ at the ending? I can't remember exactly but either it deletes the "Don't pass up this chance...it sounds like a true romance..." or it adds something. I'm sure one of you Martha experts will know!

**stephanie** · 11-04-2014, 10:19 AM

I like stereo but I must admit that the singles we here on the radio the monos are the once that rock the most. When it comes to Spector the ONLY way to listen to his stuff is in mono there is no way to hear the difference in the singers and instruments in stereo without sacrificing the integrity of the music and the Wall of Sound. He intended it to be that way. When it comes to the Motown 45s the mono sound has that backbeat and its the only way to go.

**reese** · 11-04-2014, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by kenneth

I didn't check the whole thread but I think another song which differs greatly is "I'm Ready for Love" by Martha and the Vandellas. The drums especially seem to be buried in the stereo mix but are quite prominent on the mono single version.

And doesn't the stereo version of "Heat Wave" differ at the ending? I can't remember exactly but either it deletes the "Don't pass up this chance...it sounds like a true romance..." or it adds something. I'm sure one of you Martha experts will know!

I think the stereo version [[or at least one of them) has a longer bridge and fades out much too early.

**rovereab** · 11-04-2014, 03:03 PM

The mono mix of Get Ready by the Temptations is very weak sounding in comparison to the stereo mix - that's a first for me liking a golden era stereo mix more lol.

**jobucats** · 11-04-2014, 09:27 PM

I recall in the 60s that I traded in my monaural version of Supremes A'Go Go for the stereo version. I was very pleased until I listened to the end of the "Baby, I Need Your Lovin'." On the mono version at around 2:20 when Diana starts singing "In the midnight hours, when I reminisce....", she is accompanied [[as I recall) by a the bass guitar and maybe some very slight percussion as opposed to the stereo version which has more instrumentation in that segment.

The mono version was AWESOME because that section was so laid back, and I've been looking for it for years.

But, mostly, I do prefer the stereo versions of my Motown music.