Gladys & Pips Could Have Taken NEITHER ONE OF US With Them When They Left Motown

[milven]

There is a nice two part video at this link by Gladys where she talks about the singers of today and what they have to do to be popular. But the part of the interview that interested me most was her discussion on her favorite song and the back story to it.

Neither One Of Us has always been a special song for Gladys. It is still hard for her to get through that song when she does it in concert because of the way they got it, the way they recorded it. They didn't have to leave it with Motown. They could have taken it to Buddah, but it was saying to Motown what they wanted to say for the seven years that they spent there. And they would have stayed if they were structured right. I guess they felt that they deserved to be higher on the totem pole of talent.

Here is link to interview
http://theboombox.com/gladys-knight-...ex-sell-music/

[Bokiluis]

Prophetic. I guess that also explains why Jim Weatherly would compose several more hits for the group.
Motown had such a strong first string of Mount Rushmore superstars, it was tremendously difficult for every deserving act to get their turn. Gladys Knight & The Pips were placed on the SOUL imprint as we know. Most of the releases on that label had a strong R&B base with some effort to crossover. Save for "Imagination", Gladys Knight & the Pips strength was from R&B, whether they were on Buddah, Columbia or Motown's Soul.
They had 7/Top 20 Hot 100 singles during their 7 year stint at Motown. They had 5/Hot 100 singles at Buddah & Columbia over 15 years.
Was their track record at Motown really that bad?

[mowest]

Bokiluis, I think you meant to write that Gladys & The Pips had 5 Top 20/Hot 100 singles at Buddah. And they actually had 8/Top 20's on Soul. However, on Soul they scored only 2 Top 5's while on Buddah it was 4, including their only #1, Midnight Train To Georgia. In any case, the group had an incredible life span and made some fantastic music!

[Bokiluis]

Bokiluis, I think you meant to write that Gladys & The Pips had 5 Top 20/Hot 100 singles at Buddah. And they actually had 8/Top 20's on Soul. However, on Soul they scored only 2 Top 5's while on Buddah it was 4, including their only #1, Midnight Train To Georgia. In any case, the group had an incredible life span and made some fantastic music!

l

Thanks for catching that and commenting without being condescending.

But my main point is that they though felt somewhat neglected at Motown, their success at Motown in a shorter period of time was fairly consistent. [[The big exception was the tremendous crossover success including Grammys on their first Buddah effort).

[midnightman]

I always felt Gladys Knight and the Pips were a true MOTOWN act... even when they went to Buddah, it didn't feel different at all to me. This wasn't like the Isley Brothers, who weren't established at Motown at all. Gladys and the Pips more than held their own at Motown...

[jobeterob]

There is so much misinformation and totally wrong information out there about Motown.

This is the first time we are hearing from Gladys herself who is saying they were trying to stay with Motown.

Just like Michael Jackson and Billie Jean; we always heard Michael would only come to M25 if he could do Billie Jean; and now we hear Berry Gordy saying Michael told him he'd come and Berry had to convince him to allow Billie Jean in the show.

And there have been a number of other stories that turned out to be just plain wrong.

I'm pleased to hear the truth coming out.

[Bokiluis]

There is so much misinformation and totally wrong information out there about Motown.

This is the first time we are hearing from Gladys herself who is saying they were trying to stay with Motown.

Just like Michael Jackson and Billie Jean; we always heard Michael would only come to M25 if he could do Billie Jean; and now we hear Berry Gordy saying Michael told him he'd come and Berry had to convince him to allow Billie Jean in the show.

And there have been a number of other stories that turned out to be just plain wrong.

I'm pleased to hear the truth coming out.

Gladys had expressed dissatisfaction before so I don't think it was an entirely misinformed statement. Because they had hits pre-Motown, they probably didn't have the same degree of loyalty that say Smokey or Diana had. Gladys was conspicuously missing from "Motown 25".
And wasn't Michael hesitant about a Jackson 5 reunion at some point? As the saying goes, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It took a personal call from Berry to persuade Diana, Marvin & Michael to finally agree. I don't think as a personal slight to Berry, but, because they had formative careers developing at their new labels.

[jobeterob]

I think your analysis is good. It is just that prior to this, you only heard that Gladys was the real push to get them to leave Motown.

[no_place_like_motown]

Thanks for this post, Milven!

I've always been a huge GK&TP fan and I've enjoyed many of their songs throughout their long career, but IMO the group's best recordings were done at Motown.

Regarding their contract renewal w/ Motown, group members Edward and William said they were offered $40,000 to renew but they felt the offer was way below what they were worth. Buddah offered them a much better deal and they jumped ship. If Motown had offered the group an amount in the range of what Buddah proposed [[which was $1 million or close to that figure) they probably would have stayed.

Despite Gladys' concerns about signing w/ Motown, once they were at Motown they enjoyed the family atmosphere. William Guest stated "I like belonging to smething, and the people at Motown were like one big family when the studios were on the boulevard. It was a pleasure to get up and go to work. Many people would come down even if they weren't scheduled that day and just hang out." [[from "Recollections, The Detroit Years: The Motown Sound by the People who Made It" by Jack Ryan).

I remember there was a thread where a former Motown employee, I'm thinking Al Abrams but I'm not 100% certain, the poster said that no one was more into Motown than Gladys Knight...

[jobeterob]

It seems like when it came to money, Motown never offered any of its artists all that much and most of them left with some reluctance and sadness.

[midnightman]

Quick question: wasn't some of the Funk Brothers on the recording of "Midnight Train to Georgia"?

[midnightman]

It seems like when it came to money, Motown never offered any of its artists all that much and most of them left with some reluctance and sadness.

I took that too. Like they were happy to be there but once money got in, they decided to leave because Motown wasn't offering much to keep them. Both Diana Ross and Teena Marie mentioned how saddened they were to leave Motown because they had enjoyed time there.

[rrussi]

We saw Gladys & the Pips right as they were getting ready to leave Motown. They didn't feel they were getting the push that a lot of other groups were getting. One example is that when we saw Diana & the Supremes in April 1969, the unadvertised opening act: Gladys Knight & the Pips. Although a crowd of 8,000 was drawn to the Orlando Sports Stadium to see the Supremes, we believed a lot more people would have gone if they had known about the opening act. Willie Tyler & Lester were also there and were also with Gladys & the Pips when we saw them in the early 70s. Also, the advertised opening act: Jimmy Castor & his group.

[rrussi]

And I mean on the above that Jimmy Castor was the opening act for Gladys & the Pips in the early 70s right before they left Motown. I think this show was either in '71 or '72. I know not long after their first Buddah single was issued, Where Peaceful Waters Flow, and it seems Neither One Of Us was already heading up the charts. Amazing that this happened as I at the time thought back to when Mary Wells left and how the company could have still issued her recordings and had hits, but then that would've have helped her.

[Hotspurman]

If you recall, Motown did keep issuing Gladys Knight & The Pips material long after they'd left the company. So much so that Gladys & The Pips launched legal action to get the releases halted AND get proper accounting on those that appeared!

[jobeterob]

A record company can release whatever it wants for as long as it wants of recordings you made for them ~ as long as your contract doesn't say that you have final approval over what is released; and you have to be a big big artist to have that kind of say. And most artists WANT their product released. Recall Motown released Blue on Diana Ross 30 years after it was recorded and she didn't even know.

The record company has to pay royalties but that is it.

[RossHolloway]

I think GK&TP created some great music while they were with Motown. I also think they fell to the same fate as many other acts did in the very late 60's-early 70's. I think Motown really changed when Berry Gordy started to split his time between Detroit and Los Angeles, and turned the day to day operation of Motown over to other people. I once read a story about how right after GK& TP had left Motown Berry Gordy showed up backstage at one of their concerts and had no idea that the group had just left his label. By like 1971, if an artist had not taken control of their career [[Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye) or had Berry Gordy's hand guiding their career [[Diana Ross and the Jackson 5), then those groups/artists seemed to suffer from neglect - The Spinners, Martha & The Vandellas, the Marvelettes, the Four Tops, Jimmy Ruffin - and either disbanded or left for other labels. Groups that were once the cornerstone of Motown during the mid-late 60's left for other labels - The Miracles, The Spinners, The Temptations, The Isley Brothers, and the Four Tops. How does a group that was once led by Smokey Robinson and a cornerstone of the Motown sounds just a few years earlier, leave the label without a fight?

[marv2]

I think GK&TP created some great music while they were with Motown. I also think they fell to the same fate as many other acts did in the very late 60's-early 70's. I think Motown really changed when Berry Gordy started to split his time between Detroit and Los Angeles, and turned the day to day operation of Motown over to other people. I once read a story about how right after GK& TP had left Motown Berry Gordy showed up backstage at one of their concerts and had no idea that the group had just left his label. By like 1971, if an artist had not taken control of their career [[Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye) or had Berry Gordy's hand guiding their career [[Diana Ross and the Jackson 5), then those groups/artists seemed to suffer from neglect - The Spinners, Martha & The Vandellas, the Marvelettes, the Four Tops, Jimmy Ruffin - and either disbanded or left for other labels. Groups that were once the cornerstone of Motown during the mid-late 60's left for other labels - The Miracles, The Spinners, The Temptations, The Isley Brothers, and the Four Tops. How does a group that was once led by Smokey Robinson and a cornerstone of the Motown sounds just a few years earlier, leave the label without a fight?

Not to mention what happened to the Supremes! They couldn't leave.......not with their name!

[supremester]

Group fade and people change - that's why so many go solo like Ross, Gladys, Smokey, Lionel, Patti, MJ, Beyonce, Eddie, Kenny Rodgers etc. I don't buy Gladys' "we're ignored" act, and never have. They were a chitlin' circuit act when they came to Motown. In a year, they had a mega hit with Grapevine, that, some might argue, should have gone to Martha or The Marvelettes - both of whom would have hit with it, IMHO. In the 15 years prior to joining Motown, GK&TP had 2 top 20 hits and no Grammy nods. In the 7 years with motown, they had 7 Top 20 hits, 4 Grammy nods and 1 win. In the 15 years after leaving Motown, they had 6 Top 20 hits, 5 Grammy nods and 2 wins. Gordy had to arm twist her into recording one of her best records ever - If I Were Your Woman. She left Motown with a huge hit single and biggest selling album to date. Motown took her from The Royal to The Copa and on every TV show known to man with my bestie Gil doing charts. They became household names. I think the suffering they did at Motown is slightly exagggggggggerated. They may have had a better $$$ deal at Buddah, but those first songs they were ready to record when they left - so Midnight Train would have been on Motown. Some think her decision was based partly on Lady Sings The Blues' success. Motown had a lot of big acts and a dearth of material.

I think GK&TP created some great music while they were with Motown. I also think they fell to the same fate as many other acts did in the very late 60's-early 70's. I think Motown really changed when Berry Gordy started to split his time between Detroit and Los Angeles, and turned the day to day operation of Motown over to other people. I once read a story about how right after GK& TP had left Motown Berry Gordy showed up backstage at one of their concerts and had no idea that the group had just left his label. By like 1971, if an artist had not taken control of their career [[Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye) or had Berry Gordy's hand guiding their career [[Diana Ross and the Jackson 5), then those groups/artists seemed to suffer from neglect - The Spinners, Martha & The Vandellas, the Marvelettes, the Four Tops, Jimmy Ruffin - and either disbanded or left for other labels. Groups that were once the cornerstone of Motown during the mid-late 60's left for other labels - The Miracles, The Spinners, The Temptations, The Isley Brothers, and the Four Tops. How does a group that was once led by Smokey Robinson and a cornerstone of the Motown sounds just a few years earlier, leave the label without a fight?

[supremester]

They didn't own the name, so they couldn't take it. A Motown salaried person came up with it - Mary was nuts to fight that. If she really wanted to leave, and really felt Motown wanted them to die, she could have tried to buy, license or rent the name. Gordy likes cash. JML could have gone on to great glory elsewhere and show Gordy up. Or they could have used a name derivative of Supremes like Supreme 3... or could have stayed and taken more control in their recordings like Lynda did with Bad Weather and Gladys was doing. Or, she could fight Motown for the name for 18 months leaving Motown incapable of releasing product on a group with no contract.

Not to mention what happened to the Supremes! They couldn't leave.......not with their name!

[no_place_like_motown]

Supremester said:

She left Motown with a huge hit single and biggest selling album to date. Motown took her from The Royal to The Copa and on every TV show known to man with my bestie Gil doing charts. They became household names.

GK&TP are grateful for the doors that Motown opened for the group. As the group put it: "We wouldn't trade our years at Motown for anything" [[from "Recollections: The Motown Sound by the People Who Made It" by Jack Ryan).