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  1. #1
    Lulu Guest

    Gay iconography: Diana ross is a supreme icon

    This site is very Madonna/Cher-heavy so it's nice to see one of Motown's own grace its pages! There are snippets of interviews with Ross, Mary Wilson, and Nile Rodgers:

    http://www.towleroad.com/2014/08/gay...reme-icon.html

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    Some of the comments below the article were more entertaining than the article.

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    You got that right, Milven. The comments made for good reading, and some were dead on about the lack of proofreading and fact-checking.

    Well, since this is probably going to be the main topic of the discussion...

    As a straight guy, I don't know anything about why many gays like her, or how she likes gays, but it does seem like the blog writer has a bit of an agenda. Ross' quote:
    It seems like girls, guys, whatever, should be able to live together without a legal contract."
    means that she may believe the whole institution of marriage is silly, the way it is set up in our Judeo-christian tradition. If two people...any people, want to live together, why do they need a legal document? Many of we straights don't believe in having to have a legal document, either. The point is that if people need a legal tie to keep them together, and not stay together by their own free will, maybe they shouldn't be together at all. Without the legal document, you can leave without legal hassle. Marriage means you have to pay to get a divorce and all the nasty stuff that comes with it.

    Having stated that, I believe gays should be allowed to be as miserable as straight married people.
    Last edited by soulster; 08-31-2014 at 01:13 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    I believe gays should be allowed to be as miserable as straight married people.
    ROTFLMAO This made me laugh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    .... Without the legal document, you can leave without legal hassle. Marriage means you have to pay to get a divorce and all the nasty stuff that comes with it....
    Tell that to Lee Marvin. He wasn't legally married to Michelle Triola, but they lived together and when they broke up , she wanted to share in his assets. That's when palimony was invented

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    Quote Originally Posted by nabob View Post
    ROTFLMAO This made me laugh!
    Met too.

    What is a gay icon? What is it supposed to do? I've never understood what the purpose of calling something a gay icon - and I don't / can't relate to such things either [[such as Bette Midler, Judy Garland etc).

    Being a 'gay icon' are gay men supposed to try to be like that person? Why?

    Yes, I like Diana [[1962-1980) but I also like Rare Earth, Temptations and so on. Does that make those people gay icons?

    Does someone such as DIana relate more to gay people than straight? I doubt it. Why should she?

    For me, calling someone a 'gay icon' is totally pointless.

  7. #7
    Lulu Guest
    If you're not gay, I don't see how you can assess gay iconography and/or call it "pointless". We've discussed this AD NAUSEUM in this group. I'm not black but I can easily see how/why certain artists are icons in the black community however, I'm not qualified to make broad, sweeping, dismissive statements about the black experience. Please don't do they old "it's not the same" thing as it will only stir the pot and cause comments that will force Ralph to shut the thread down. As I've addressed numerous times, racism is a taboo issue online and especially here at SDF yet misogyny and homophobia sneak by and don't get the same slaps on the wrist.

    In any event, I've shared this before but the site below is a good place to start if you care or want to know more about the relationship of music, culture and gay iconography. It was put together by those who are alive to tell about the Stonewall Riot in 1969. As you'll see Diana Ross [[& The Supremes) are at the pinnacle. I'm out after this as, again, I've addressed this issue many times before and it only goes south.

    http://www.stonewallvets.org/mainpage.htm
    Last edited by Lulu; 08-31-2014 at 02:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Tell that to Lee Marvin. He wasn't legally married to Michelle Triola, but they lived together and when they broke up , she wanted to share in his assets. That's when palimony was invented
    Common-law marriage. It's the way our laws force people into some kind of legal bind whether they want it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordy_hunk View Post
    Met too.

    What is a gay icon? What is it supposed to do? I've never understood what the purpose of calling something a gay icon - and I don't / can't relate to such things either [[such as Bette Midler, Judy Garland etc).

    Being a 'gay icon' are gay men supposed to try to be like that person? Why?

    Yes, I like Diana [[1962-1980) but I also like Rare Earth, Temptations and so on. Does that make those people gay icons?

    Does someone such as DIana relate more to gay people than straight? I doubt it. Why should she?

    For me, calling someone a 'gay icon' is totally pointless.
    And, what's a straight icon supposed to be? See how silly it all is?

    I've been asking people on this forum why gay guys here love Ross so much, even with all of her negatives. No one can give me a "straight" answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulu View Post
    I'm not black but I can easily see how/why certain artists are icons in the black community however, I'm not qualified to make broad, sweeping, dismissive statements about the black experience.
    It is still pointless. Black people do not think monolithically. There may be Black artists who are important to the Black experience/culture, but none are icons. No one person can be representative or an example of a people as a whole. Same with gays, straights, women, or any group. I know that Ross sure as hell doesn't represent all gays. If she did, they would all be in trouble! And, I think I recall gordy_hunk stating that he is gay once. I could be wrong.

    Please don't do they old "it's not the same" thing as it will only stir the pot and cause comments that will force Ralph to shut the thread down. As I've addressed numerous times, racism is a taboo issue online and especially here at SDF yet misogyny and homophobia sneak by and don't get the same slaps on the wrist.
    It's not a taboo topic from the tons of sites i've seen and been on! Thankfully, Ralph allows us all the latitude to discuss sensitive topics here as long as we don't dive into insults. So, religion, race, sex, and LBGT are allowed here as long as we are polite to each other. We won't all agree on the same things. You know there are those who are against interracial fating or marriage, gay marriage, or gays/lesbians period. We probably have some cross-dressers here. And, there's probably a couple of misogynists and man-haters around here, somewhere. We have republicans, democrats, tea-partiers, and independants. We have religious conservatives and open-minded liberals. We have people who hate rap and disco, and rock. It's all good. Just don't insult. If we can all discuss these things civilly, I think Ralph will continue to allow it. After all, all of those issues, and more, are in the music we like. We all have our likes and dislikes, and opinions. I'm sure we all have it in us to express them and not take it too personally if someone disagrees with what you believe.

    You know, we should have a general introduction thread to tell everyone a bit about ourselves, or put in our profiles so we can be forewarned.

    In any event, I've shared this before but the site below is a good place to start if you care or want to know more about the relationship of music, culture and gay iconography. It was put together by those who are alive to tell about the Stonewall Riot in 1969. As you'll see Diana Ross [[& The Supremes) are at the pinnacle. I'm out after this as, again, I've addressed this issue many times before and it only goes south.
    I had never heard of a Stonewall riot until someone posted about it on this forum. It's good to know because it's part of U.S. history. Generally, America is not cross-cultural unless it's about food. Most people borrow a little from each culture, but mostly stick to their own and what they know. The people that do mingle or live other cultures are actually the small minority. That is what we have so much division. We don't want to know about different cultures or lifestyles, or other people. They make us uncomfortable. Some are taught that anyone different from yourself and your peers are not to be trusted, or to be feared, that they are out to take things away from you, or destroy you.

  11. #11
    supremester Guest
    What are Ross' negatives? Are they gay related?

    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    And, what's a straight icon supposed to be? See how silly it all is?

    I've been asking people on this forum why gay guys here love Ross so much, even with all of her negatives. No one can give me a "straight" answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    What are Ross' negatives? Are they gay related?
    No. It's about the well-documented accounts of how she treats people. She is not the only artist out there with lots of negatives. Prince is another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    ]...I had never heard of a Stonewall riot until someone posted about it on this forum. It's good to know because it's part of U.S. history. ...
    You are right. It is part of U.S. History, and as such, everyone should be aware of it. Just as people should be aware women suffrage, and American citizens of Japanese descent were put in concentration camps during WWII , and black people had to sit in back of the bus and drink from separate fountains. This is all part of American History that everyone should be aware of.

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    I think the "gay iconography" thing is this: people like Judy, Diana, Barbara or whoever clearly did not start out to be gay icons, and gay people certainly don't flock to these artists because it's the "gay thing to do." The term refers to a mutual appreciation for these artists amongst the gay community. Why is there this association with people like Diana and Judy with many [[not all) gay people? From what I have read, observed and experience, I believe it has to do with the fact that many gay people feel that these artists' "flamboyancy" - meaning a dramatic, expressive persona - reflect a kind of feeling a lot of gay people might normally not be able to express in their everyday lives. With Judy, for example, she reflects both a sort of pain and a sense of triumph in her music - emotions that run rampant in many a gay person's life as they are coming to terms with their sexuality, and how they confront themselves with an often judgmental society.

    I think that is a small part of this concept of "gay iconography." I can tell you I know a lot of gay men and women who are fans of some of these icons, but are resentful of the fact that they are called "gay icons" because they feel that insinuates that that kind of music is "gay." On the other hand, I know other gay men and women who hold fast to the notion of these artists being gay icons because they feel they are excellent representatives for a community trying to find it's voice in society. I do not have a problem with the term "gay icon," per se. If it's used in the context of someone referring to that artist as being held in high regard by many in the gay community, or called a gay icon because they advocate for gay rights, that's great. If it's used in a negative way, such as "I could tell he was gay because he listens to Diana," that's where the problem lies. When you start labeling people's sexuality based off of the singers they listen to - and it's not just Diana or Judy; any time a male favors a female musician, he is presumed to be gay - then problems arise.

  15. #15
    supremester Guest
    I'm about as gay as anyone can be, but I'll only speak for myself. For me, Miss Ross' negs are negligible. Desperate, money needin' "author/humanitarians" scribing one-sided accounts with lies or exagggggerations on every page [[like Dreamgirl & Extreme Faith) don't weigh in with me because of the many proven falsehoods that lead me to think there are many others yet to be revealed. Dionne Warwick referred to Miss Ross' "well documented ______ behavior" but followed it with the fact that she had never witnessed it personally the many times they've been together. Now I can imagine that Miss Ross has probably run roughshod over many over the years. I've seen her angry & frustrated at sound check [[but not mean or disrespectful) however, I'm sure the lighting guy at Caesars went home and bitched a blue streak about her. The funny thing is that when the supervisor arrived, he showed the tech where HE was wrong. I can see lots of situations like that which would lead to crabbing about Miss Ross. I'm sure she has left angry people in her wake, but those negs don't counter the many, many positives she provides as an iconic performer for over 5 decades. So even if she shoved XX, totally unprovoked, into a meat grinder, but then delivered a spine-tingling Don't Explain like at The Pantages, so be it. After learning the full account of most of her negs, I'm not so much frightened of her than I am the smirking Judasi that scribe the untruths.
    I'm also a fan of Judy, Jhud, Janis, John Lennon, Robert Johnson, Spencer Tracy, Aretha, Nat King Cole, Gladys, Martha, Cab Calloway, [[early) Sinatra, Marvin, Dennis/David/Paul/Eddie, Ethel Merman, Memphis Slim, - not sure how gay that is or not. Judy is, of course - even with her many negs. I'm not into Babs, Madge, Gaga or Cher [[but will go see Babs' next USA show) and they have much bigger gay followings. In fact, there is rarely more than 10% gay men in Ross' audience that I can tell. The biggest percentage is white women in their 40's. It all varies by location, but unless you are looking for more than 10-15% membership - I don't think Miss Ross' audience is very gay. It would be fun, though ; )p
    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    No. It's about the well-documented accounts of how she treats people. She is not the only artist out there with lots of negatives. Prince is another.
    Last edited by supremester; 09-01-2014 at 04:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antceleb12 View Post
    I think that is a small part of this concept of "gay iconography." I can tell you I know a lot of gay men and women who are fans of some of these icons, but are resentful of the fact that they are called "gay icons" because they feel that insinuates that that kind of music is "gay."
    And, there it is! Not only are these women not gay in any sense of the word, but their music is simply from a different era. Many straight guys like their music [[i'm a big fan of Barbra Streisand's music and political views), but don't really want to be associated with the stereotypical fan because people assume that if you like their music, you must be gay because gays love them.

    If it's used in a negative way, such as "I could tell he was gay because he listens to Diana," that's where the problem lies. When you start labeling people's sexuality based off of the singers they listen to - and it's not just Diana or Judy; any time a male favors a female musician, he is presumed to be gay - then problems arise.
    That's what I was getting at above. You should see the reactions I get if I try to buy music that appeals to gays or teenage girls. I once made the mistake of mentioning to a hot woman I had been talking to that I have some music by Cher. Her opinion of me changed fast! One girl I work with is convinced that i'm gay because I admitted that I watch one soap opera. If you say you don't like sports, you are labeled gay too.

    Face it, people: we still live in a world full of bigots and ignorant types, and no teaching moments are ever going to change that.
    Last edited by soulster; 09-01-2014 at 11:31 PM.

  17. #17
    supremester Guest
    The world isn't full of bigots and other trash bags, but there are still some. Just tonight I was showing a fave Sopranos epi to a 30 year old friend. In it, Tony is very unhappy his daughter MIGHT be dating a half black/half white Jewish boy and couldn't understand why there was a problem. Racism is everywhere, in varying degrees and forms - but, in my neck of the woods, it's very normal to know of no one who verbalizes anything even close to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supremester View Post
    The world isn't full of bigots and other trash bags, but there are still some. Just tonight I was showing a fave Sopranos epi to a 30 year old friend. In it, Tony is very unhappy his daughter MIGHT be dating a half black/half white Jewish boy and couldn't understand why there was a problem. Racism is everywhere, in varying degrees and forms - but, in my neck of the woods, it's very normal to know of no one who verbalizes anything even close to it.
    You should visit my part of the country. You have people who think nothing of spewing their bigoted and racist views to anyone who can hear them. And, if they don't say it, they wear t-shirts that speak for them. Just saw one the other day that read something like "Warningsta: God-fearing, angry, white conservative, NRA loving..." something, and on the back, it reads "Thank goodness he's leaving soon" [[supposedly referring to President Obama).

    In short, there are a LOT of those intolerant types out there.
    Last edited by soulster; 09-01-2014 at 11:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    .. I once made the mistake of mentioning to a hot woman I had been talking to that I have some music by Cher. Her opinion of me changed fast! One girl I work with is convinced that i'm gay because I admitted that I watch one soap opera. If you say you don't like sports, you are labeled gay too.
    Just your taste in music or TV sends out these vibes to strangers and ex-girlfriends that you may be gay? Are any other subliminal vibes being sent out that you may unaware of or ignoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by soulster View Post
    .. Face it, people: we still live in a world full of bigots and ignorant types, and no teaching moments are ever going to change that.
    Yes, and the biggest problem that gay people have seems to be - not from straight people - but, from people in the closet who condemn gay people, say they don't understand it and then get caught in some bathroom stall with their pants down. Quite a few Politicians and Televangelists have condemned the gay life style and then got caught with a mouth full of you know what

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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Just your taste in music or TV sends out these vibes to strangers and ex-girlfriends that you may be gay? Are any other subliminal vibes being sent out that you may unaware of or ignoring?
    Hell if I know. I'm straight as an arrow. I was born heterosexual and i'm totally into women. Like Tone Loc says, "I got no plans with a man!" The way I see it, it's other peoples problem if they think someone's gay just because they fit some stereotype. I just think it's a shame that a man can't like what he likes without having to be labeled something. Do you agree?


    Yes, and the biggest problem that gay people have seems to be - not from straight people - but, from people in the closet who condemn gay people, say they don't understand it and then get caught in some bathroom stall with their pants down. Quite a few Politicians and Televangelists have condemned the gay life style and then got caught with a mouth full of you know what
    That's one way of putting it! LOL! We have more important things to be worrying about in this world than what people do behind closed doors or what country a parent came from.
    Last edited by soulster; 09-02-2014 at 12:30 PM.

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    Whaddaya know. Gay people are individuals! I have a friend who is gay and likes heavy metal!! And a gay relative who does not Liza. Whats this world coming to!

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