From The Detroit News-50 years later, Supremes' run atop pop chart goes uncelebrated

[Lulu]

AS someone mentioned last time there was a Beatles vs. Supremes comparison thread, comparing the two groups is comparing apples and oranges. But I certainly struck a nerve, especially with Ross and Supremes fans who are far too hung up on sales and charts. Sorry, but again such things are fleeting and ultimately meaningless in the larger context of lasting artistic legacy.

OTOH I think it's fair to compare Ross/Supremes lasting artistic reputation to Aretha Franklin. Franklin' is taken much more seriously, especially her Atlantic years. She's not the entertainer Ross or The Supremes are/were, but I think her artistry is on a deeper level. Her work just resonates on a deeper emotional level thanks to the songs and her vocal interpretation as well as the music.

But as we know assessments of artistry are ultimately subjective so I'm curious what Ross/Supremes fans can point to in their work as a lasting artistic legacy--but keep it limited to the work, not record sales and charts and ticket sales.

I would say [[vocal-wise):

There's A Place For Us
The Supremes Sing Rodgers & Hart
Diana Ross & The Supremes Sing & Perform Funny Girl
Lady Sings The Blues
Touch Me In The Morning & To The Baby
Baby It's Me
The Boss
Blue

Other tracks IMHO: "You're All I Need To Get By", "You Are Everything", "I Thought It Took A Little Time", "Where Did We Go Wrong", "To Love Again", "Friend To Friend", "Endless Love" [[solo), "In Your Arms", "You Do It", "Missing You", "Forever Young", "More and More", "It's Hard For Me To Say", "Blame It On The Sun", "I Never Loved A Man Before", "I Thought That We Were Still In Love", "Until We Meet Again" and the songs I mentioned below from I Love You​.

[Lulu]

I would say [[vocal-wise):

There's A Place For Us
The Supremes Sing Rodgers & Hart
Diana Ross & The Supremes Sing & Perform Funny Girl
Lady Sings The Blues
Touch Me In The Morning & To The Baby
Baby It's Me
The Boss
Blue

Other tracks IMHO: "You're All I Need To Get By", "You Are Everything", "I Thought It Took A Little Time", "Where Did We Go Wrong", "To Love Again", "Friend To Friend", "Endless Love" [[solo), "In Your Arms", "You Do It", "Missing You", "Forever Young", "More and More", "It's Hard For Me To Say", "Blame It On The Sun", "I Never Loved A Man Before", "I Thought That We Were Still In Love", "Until We Meet Again" and the songs I mentioned below from I Love You​.

And "Amazing Grace" from Christmas In Vienna AND nearly all of the slower tracks on A Very Special Season​!!!

[smark21]

Thank you brad, skooldem and lulu for your responses. Pop music deserves to be engaged as seriously as more traditional so called high art forms of music.

As for Jimi, well your repeated resorts to name calling and insults, rather than seriously engaging my questions or debating/countering my points, just reveals how emotionally immature and intellectually shallow you really are. Not that I'm shocked or surprised.

[midnightman]

Really, guys, really? This again?

Didn't we just have this discussion? Didn't I say that one big reason why this "isn't celebrated", it's because, well, maybe, the label MOTOWN itself was bigger than the groups? The artists may have made Motown what it is but Motown and all of its artists, band mates, label owner, etc., were given the anniversary.

No one's bringing up the 50th anniversary of the Temptations becoming a successful act [[nothing close to the Supremes but still) or the Four Tops. No one was talking about a 50th anniversary for Stevie Wonder's first hit or Mary Wells' "My Guy".

The Beatles were given a whole lot of more media coverage then and now than the Supremes. Why are y'all even surprised by this? Celebrate the 50th anniversary of them making hits but don't act like they parted the red seas. Jesus Christ...

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, for starters, The Supremes are the ONLY U.S. vocal group in the rock era [[1955-current day) to have an even dozen #1 pop chart hits on the BillBoard Hot 100.. If that were The Beach Boys, The Four Seasons, etc. we'd never hear the end of it, but because three black females made this happen, well, it's really no big deal, now is it.. Yes, The Supremes were and ARE bigger than MOTOWN.. ask Berry Gordy or Suzanne De Passe their opinions on this subject when you get the chance..

[Bokiluis]

well, for starters, The Supremes are the ONLY U.S. vocal group in the rock era [[1955-current day) to have an even dozen #1 pop chart hits on the BillBoard Hot 100.. If that were The Beach Boys, The Four Seasons, etc. we'd never hear the end of it, but because three black females made this happen, well, it's really no big deal, now is it.. Yes, The Supremes were and ARE bigger than MOTOWN.. ask Berry Gordy or Suzanne De Passe their opinions on this subject when you get the chance..

One only has to compare the differences in the chart rankings between The Supremes with The Beach Boys to see that The Supremes were indeed the most successful American group of the 60s. It took over 2 decades for another female group to have 3/#1 Top 200 albums and the first female group ever to have a #1 album. En Vogue, Wilson Phillips, The Dixie Chicks, TLC, The Spice Girls and Destiny's Child all had their quick, flashy run BUT not the endurance of The Supremes. To my recollection, none of these groups had their own television specials. The Spice Girls had their movie, but, The Supremes were featured in the smash teen concert film, "The T.A.M.I. Show" less than 6 mos. after their first #1. The Ed Sullivan Show, the 60s arguably most important variety show featured The Supremes 16-17 times. No other female group can claim the equivalent from their era. For what its worth, they were the first female group inducted into the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame. The Supremes dominated not only the pop & R&B charts, but, also the Adult Contemporary. Beyond their contemporary hits, they had 2 near platinum concept albums in "A Bit of Liverpool" and "Sing Rodgers & Hart".

[midnightman]

Well to be fair, the Shirelles should've been the first to be inducted to the Hall before the Supremes. But I guess we can't be fair, can we? I say the same for pre-Beatles groups [[the Shadows haven't gotten in yet but they didn't quite set the U.S. on fire so there you have it).

As a group, they were terrific but it seems when people here argue about their place in history, chart figures and sales are the first thing they go on. Reminds me of MJ fans and fans of some pop divas [[Mariah, Christina, Whitney, etc.).

[Bokiluis]

Well to be fair, the Shirelles should've been the first to be inducted to the Hall before the Supremes. But I guess we can't be fair, can we? I say the same for pre-Beatles groups [[the Shadows haven't gotten in yet but they didn't quite set the U.S. on fire so there you have it).

As a group, they were terrific but it seems when people here argue about their place in history, chart figures and sales are the first thing they go on. Reminds me of MJ fans and fans of some pop divas [[Mariah, Christina, Whitney, etc.).

Sorry, I stand corrected. Oh, wait a minute. You are saying that The Shirelles SHOULD have been inducted first, NOT that they were. So do you recall which female group was indeed the first to be inducted? It's never clear what is the criteria for being inducted. It probably is indeed based on record sales [[easy to define), cultural impact [[less clear and more subjective. eg. Abba???), etc. ironically, the first record that impacted me was "Dedicated to the One I Love". But it was via radio play only. The Supremes records I actually purchased or given as part of my allowance.

[Bokiluis]

The Shirelles have 6 Top 10 singles, of which, 2 hit the summit 2 years apart. But virtually no impact on album sales though in the early 60s, their heyday, album sales were nowhere as significant as singles sales. However, as we know, by 1964, The Supremes had both...besting The Marvelettes and Martha Reeves & The Vandellas though they had hit singles prior to The Supremes. Within a year, The Supremes, of course had 5/6 #1 singles and 3-4 gold/platinum level albums [[uncertified because of Motown's reluctance to join the RIAA).

[midnightman]

The Shirelles have 6 Top 10 singles, of which, 2 hit the summit. But virtually no impact on album sales though in the early 60s, their heyday, album sales were nowhere as significant as singles sales. However, as we know, by 1964, The Supremes had both...besting The Marvelettes and Martha Reeves & The Vandellas though they had hit singles prior to The Supremes. Within a year, The Supremes, of course had 5/6 #1 singles and 3-4 gold/platinum level albums [[uncertified because of Motown's reluctance to join the RIAA).

I give it to the Supremes that at least five of their albums during the classic years were top 10 or better [[#1 in the case of Supremes A 'Go-Go, first a black group/girl group reached the top if I recall?). But I think in terms of historical and musical impact, I think the Shirelles can compete somewhat with the Supremes on that. Just somewhat. Again, why is it all about the charts?

I get that the Supremes were considered [[and rightfully so) as pioneers but my issue with the moaning here is why don't we do it and stop worrying about why others won't? Why are we so invested in having other people acknowledge a historic moment? Is that all life is? I'm sure if not Mary, Diana's not complaining at all.

[Bokiluis]

just ignore the Aretha troll, all he does is spout opinions that he tries present as fact.,he should apply for a job at fox 'news'...

Okay the "faux news" comment almost caused me to choke on my dinner. 'Nuf said.

[Jimi LaLumia]

for real fans of pop culture, this sort of thing carries the same gravity as sports fans have for their version of banter over who deserves what,, based on a combination of statistics [[as compared to chart placings and sales) and personal likes and opinions..most people are here with the same, sports style passion..for those who aren't, well, why ever you ARE here, you're not going to change anything, so just go check yourself, all right?

[daviddh]

like this is a surprise that the supremes weren't celebrated????not to me. how long did it take for the box set to come out?

[midnightman]

like this is a surprise that the supremes weren't celebrated????not to me. how long did it take for the box set to come out?

Wait, the box set was supposed to be out earlier than it did or what? I'm surprised they didn't put it out on the 30th anniversary after their first hit in 1963 [[a 1993 box set).

[Lulu]

Wait, the box set was supposed to be out earlier than it did or what? I'm surprised they didn't put it out on the 30th anniversary after their first hit in 1963 [[a 1993 box set).

If memory serves me right, Diana released her Forever, Diana​ box set in 1993 to celebrate...a disc full of Supremes songs to boot!

[Bokiluis]

I give it to the Supremes that at least five of their albums during the classic years were top 10 or better [[#1 in the case of Supremes A 'Go-Go, first a black group/girl group reached the top if I recall?). But I think in terms of historical and musical impact, I think the Shirelles can compete somewhat with the Supremes on that. Just somewhat. Again, why is it all about the charts?

Charts are statistical measures including sales & airplay, otherwise, wouldn't it all be subjective? What other way would you suggest measuring the performance and/or popularity of a given act or single or album? In the 60s & 70s, you had 3 trades to compare success by. Now Billboard only exists, but, thankfully sales and airplay are now measured electronically by Soundscan/BDS. I'm sure you are probably aware of this already.

I am confused. How can The Shirelles compete with The Supremes on album sales when only their greatest hits even hit Top 50 [[#19), when Diana Ross & The Supremes had a global #1 Greatest Hits [[U.S., U.K., Australia & Japan). Respectfully, The Shirelles only had 1 single hit the U.K. Top 10 #4/"Will You Love Me Tomorrow"). The Supremes had Royal Command Performances in the U.K. and Japan. Had international television specials, etc.

[midnightman]

^ And I'm just as confused that you think I was going on their chart information. I wasn't, y'all are though. Lol

[Bokiluis]

^ And I'm just as confused that you think I was going on their chart information. I wasn't, y'all are though. Lol

Huh??? Oh well, I explained it as best as I could. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever it is that you do believe. Regards.

[smark21]

Charts and sales can never be used to evaluate artistic worth. They can only be used to evaluate sales and radio airplay, with the caveat that payola and other business practices as well as fans buying multiple copies of a single or album can rig the charts. Artistic evaluation and analysis are dependent on engaging the work. And based on the responses in this thread, some can do this while others seem incapable for whatever reason.

[smark21]

I would say [[vocal-wise):

There's A Place For Us
The Supremes Sing Rodgers & Hart
Diana Ross & The Supremes Sing & Perform Funny Girl
Lady Sings The Blues
Touch Me In The Morning & To The Baby
Baby It's Me
The Boss
Blue

Other tracks IMHO: "You're All I Need To Get By", "You Are Everything", "I Thought It Took A Little Time", "Where Did We Go Wrong", "To Love Again", "Friend To Friend", "Endless Love" [[solo), "In Your Arms", "You Do It", "Missing You", "Forever Young", "More and More", "It's Hard For Me To Say", "Blame It On The Sun", "I Never Loved A Man Before", "I Thought That We Were Still In Love", "Until We Meet Again" and the songs I mentioned below from I Love You​.

Lulu, of the songs you listed, can you go into a bit of detail about one of them and why you like it so much? One of my favorite Diana Ross' performances is Strange Fruit from the Stolen Moments concert--the near a capella arrangement [[with just a bit of piano from Bobby Tucker) and Ross' stark, straightforward and clear vocal telling the story and making the point and letting the words resonate is one of her all time great performances.

[Jimi LaLumia]

...yawn''''...

[Lulu]

Lulu, of the songs you listed, can you go into a bit of detail about one of them and why you like it so much? One of my favorite Diana Ross' performances is Strange Fruit from the Stolen Moments concert--the near a capella arrangement [[with just a bit of piano from Bobby Tucker) and Ross' stark, straightforward and clear vocal telling the story and making the point and letting the words resonate is one of her all time great performances.

Certainly...let me get back to you on that and YES, I left out Stolen Moments! "Strange Fruit" was a MOMENT indeed. If you go back and listen to the soundtrack version, the SM version and finally the RRHOF version from 2000, the development of her interpretative skills is impossible not to notice. If you recall the RRHOF was impromptu with NO accompaniment which I think showcases a HUGE talent and I remember watching and thinking that the folks in the audience were WOWed. We all know Holiday had a small voice as well and she is certainly revered as more "hip" and artistic [[her soap opera of a life only adds to the mystique) but as you've pointed out, if critics and fans actually pushed aside the Supremes hysteria and the larger-than-life diva stories, I think they'd actually be able to isolate Diana's skills as a singer from the over-the-top *star* we all see on stage.

[bradsupremes]

Wait, the box set was supposed to be out earlier than it did or what? I'm surprised they didn't put it out on the 30th anniversary after their first hit in 1963 [[a 1993 box set).

I believe the Supremes box set was planned as early as 1990.

[Bokiluis]

Charts and sales can never be used to evaluate artistic worth. They can only be used to evaluate sales and radio airplay, with the caveat that payola and other business practices as well as fans buying multiple copies of a single or album can rig the charts. Artistic evaluation and analysis are dependent on engaging the work. And based on the responses in this thread, some can do this while others seem incapable for whatever reason.

Which also makes it very subjective. What is great to one person is not to another. That is unless the person believes themselves superior to everyone else's opinions. And while sales/airplay doesn't always indicate "artistic" [[Milli Vanilli, Britney Spears, etc.). It can be a starting point. I would factor sales/airplay in because it did resonate with an audience.....though you very well may not have been a part of that audience.

[Jimi LaLumia]

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/art
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/artistic
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/artificial
and that which applies to Aretha, Miss Ross, and everyone else discussed her, the 'gravity' of the 'work' is simply in the mind those consuming the work, those, even MIlli Vanilli and Britney apply as 'art', pop art, high art or low, it is all 'art', thereby all 'artistic' by nature, and ultimately ALL art-ificial, like the pronouncements of self proclaimed 'art evaluators'.. so enough already with all the bogus blittering, if you don't enjoy Miss Ross, don't listen, she obviously, in that case, didn't make the records for you... I prefer the music on ALL the Ross recordings, both hits AND flips, a thousand times over Aretha's heavily hyped 'emperor's new clothes' catalog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLc2...c2kSIihYU#t=65

[Bokiluis]

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/art
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/artistic
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/artificial
and that which applies to Aretha, Miss Ross, and everyone else discussed her, the 'gravity' of the 'work' is simply in the mind those consuming the work, those, even MIlli Vanilli and Britney apply as 'art', pop art, high art or low, it is all 'art', thereby all 'artistic' by nature, and ultimately ALL art-ificial, like the pronouncements of self proclaimed 'art evaluators'.. so enough already with all the bogus blittering, if you don't enjoy Miss Ross, don't listen, she obviously, in that case, didn't make the records for you... I prefer the music on ALL the Ross recordings, both hits AND flips, a thousand times over Aretha's heavily hyped 'emperor's new clothes' catalog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLc2...c2kSIihYU#t=65

Agreed. As Snoop Dog also mimicked, if you don't like it, "it simply was NOT made for you."

Berry Gordy didn't initially get "What's Going On". He then admitted, "he learned a lot". NARAS/The Grammys ignored it too.....now that album sits at the top of most All Time Best List from Rolling Stone to Q to Time Magazine. It also happened to sell 2 million copies within its first year.

[smark21]

But if What's Going On had sold 2 thousand instead of 2 million it would still be a great album.

[Jimi LaLumia]

it would still be a great album for those who derived pleasure from it..for those who thought it sucked, it would still have sucked..just like everything else that''s out there..I'll take the I Hear A Symphony album by The Supremes over What's Going On any day of the week..that is my perception of artistry.. I really couldn't care less what yours is, and ultimately, neither could anyone else..thank God that the days of the 'gate keeping' music critic is over, the internet took care of all that, Thank You Jesus!

[midnightman]

I believe the Supremes box set was planned as early as 1990.

Wow. THAT early? I guess that would've been the 30-year anniversary then because they began recording for Motown that year [[but weren't signed yet).

[midnightman]

Agreed. As Snoop Dog also mimicked, if you don't like it, "it simply was NOT made for you."

Berry Gordy didn't initially get "What's Going On". He then admitted, "he learned a lot". NARAS/The Grammys ignored it too.....now that album sits at the top of most All Time Best List from Rolling Stone to Q to Time Magazine. It also happened to sell 2 million copies within its first year.

According to sales stats, What's Going On now sits at four million copies sold. It's claimed to be the best-selling Motown album that was released during Motown's "golden era" [[1961-1972). It's also platinum in the UK with shipments of 300,000 copies there. I don't recall a Supremes studio album reaching that position [[though tons of Diana Ross material went gold and platinum there).

[midnightman]

Charts and sales can never be used to evaluate artistic worth. They can only be used to evaluate sales and radio airplay, with the caveat that payola and other business practices as well as fans buying multiple copies of a single or album can rig the charts. Artistic evaluation and analysis are dependent on engaging the work. And based on the responses in this thread, some can do this while others seem incapable for whatever reason.

People rather not talk about the payola Capitol and Motown both used to get their respective groups the number one singles.

OOPS. Did I say that out loud? I guess I don't like the Beatles or the Supremes because I said that.

[Jimi LaLumia]

sales figures!!!! what happened to the "ART"????...LMFAO.. Supremes Greatest Hits sold over 6 million copies, by the way, and all those tracks were recorded in the studio, so it's a studio album...so THERE!!

[marv2]

Has Diana Ross said anything publicly regarding the 50th Anniversary of the Supremes' "Where Did Our Love Go?"

[captainjames]

Diana mentions the Supremes 50th anniversary and Motown in concert at each performance I have been to.

[midnightman]

^ Did she? Didn't know that. That's good.

[Lulu]

"Ain't No Mountain High Enough" turned 44 today and Motown: The Musical put this out:

[tmd]

Supremes are by far the greatest female group of all-time- hands down. Great singing and of course the great James Jameson backing them up on bass is what gave them that little extra that made them so special- especially on You Can't Hurry Love , Reflection, Someday Will Be Together, Love Is Here , I'm Going to Make You love Me with the Temptations, and my favorite My World Empty without You
It did not hurt that HDH did some of their greatest work with them.
Long Live the Supremes