Why did Philadelphia International Records seem to avoid Motown's problems in the 70s

[soulster]

Funny thing, though, Philadelphia International was the modeled pretty much in the same way as Motown, but didn't seem to have all the parental control issues. It seems to me that the artists at PIR wanted to be there, and wanted the Gamble and Huff signature. Anyone know why the PIR machine worked so much better than Motown? Were they just treated and compensated more equitably?

In the 70s, it seemed that the artists still on the roster were always battling the Motown brass over something, be it creative control or royalties. What was it?

[marv2]

Funny thing, though, Philadelphia International was the modeled pretty much in the same way as Motown, but didn't seem to have all the parental control issues. It seems to me that the artists at PIR wanted to be there, and wanted the Gamble and Huff signature. Anyone know why the PIR machine worked so much better than Motown? Were they just treated and compensated more equitably?

In the 70s, it seemed that the artists still on the roster were always battling the Motown brass over something, be it creative control or royalties. What was it?

I think it had something to do with maturity and experience that many of the PIR artists had during the 70's. Some of them came from different areas and had been in the business for while. So they were probably more equiped to negotiate their contracts.

[soulster]

I think it had something to do with maturity and experience that many of the PIR artists had during the 70's. Some of them came from different areas and had been in the business for while. So they were probably more equiped to negotiate their contracts.

Note that several artists who also had maturity and experience in the business before they signed with Motown, most notably Gladys Knight & The Pips, The Isley Brothers, and the Four Tops, all left the label after they recorded for them. The Isley Brothers barely stuck around for two years before they left and re-formed their label.

[marv2]

Note than several artists who also had maturity and experience in the business before they signed with Motown, most notably Gladys Knight & The Pips, The Isley Brothers, and the Four Tops, all left the label after they recorded for them. The Isley Brothers barely stuck around for two years before they left and re-formed their label.

That is true. I should mention that Gladys did not want to sign with Motown based on "things" she had heard. She was out voted by the Pips who wanted to go there because Motown was the S*&T at that time. The Four Tops were native Detroiters and that played a role in their decision to sign with the label and Berry really wanted them! The Isleys' I have no clue why they came to Motown. All left over financial issues.......

[soulster]

The Isleys' I have no clue why they came to Motown. All left over financial issues.......

It was more than just financial issues. It was creative. The brothers were used to having artistic control, and Motown wouldn't give them that.

But, everything is about learning. I'm sure they learned some valuable production and business tips at Motown that helped them be successful with T-Neck, and their dealings with Buddah and CBS.

[Amithesameboy]

Funny thing, though, Philadelphia International was the modeled pretty much in the same way as Motown, but didn't seem to have all the parental control issues. It seems to me that the artists at PIR wanted to be there, and wanted the Gamble and Huff signature. Anyone know why the PIR machine worked so much better than Motown? Were they just treated and compensated more equitably?

In the 70s, it seemed that the artists still on the roster were always battling the Motown brass over something, be it creative control or royalties. What was it?

I think it is very questionable to assert that the "PIR machine worked so much better than Motown". PIR was a new label in the seventies and Motown was a new label in the sixties. I think there is little doubt that artists were very happy indeed to be with Motown in the early days. Just as they were with PIR when that was the up and coming label. Clearly, many Motown artists, writers, and producers felt less positively later on. But that seems to me to be a normal business cycle. Certainly there were people who were less happy with PIR as time went on. Baker-Harris-Young didnt leave because they were delighted with life at PIR.

[motony]

it seems like PIR artists had some difficulties with the label over money ect ie: Intruders, 3 Degrees. PIR was not nearly as successful a label as Motown & PIR had CBS & later Columbia over their shoulders.

[soulster]

it seems like PIR artists had some difficulties with the label over money ect ie: Intruders, 3 Degrees. PIR was not nearly as successful a label as Motown & PIR had CBS & later Columbia over their shoulders.

Columbia was owned by CBS.

PIR had a distribution deal with CBS, and later EMI.

PIR was very successful. They just didn't release product as frequently as Motown, and, since it was the 70s, there was more emphasis on albums vs. singles.

There were certainly issues with some artists at Motown, but there was nowhere near the drama there was at Motown.

[motony]

Only Teddy Pendergrass & Harold Melvin were on the Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes records.The other singers were Bunny Sigler, Sharon Paige & Kenny Gamble.Billy Paul had trouble getting his money, Richard Barett took his Three Degrees away from the label.Gamble & Huff were very creative BUT handling the business is a total different ballgame.

[thomas96]

You think it has anything to do with Philadelphia vs. Detroit?

[tsull1]

Read "House on Fire" about PIR records. Like Motown, tons and I mean tons of talent in the studios those days. But PIR also had financial problems and the talent was jumping ship like crazy near the end where only The O'Jays were keeping things alive. I heard G & H [[as much as I love them) were tight-fisted with the $$$. PIR and Philly Soul is my favorite, but not without its internal problems. When things were going south, G & H took their ball and went home, no contingency plan to keep things going ... sort of like Berry and his L.A. dreams.

Nevertheless, I'm eternally thankful to both labels for bringing such joy to my life. Neither label was perfect, but what business is? In the end, the legacy outweighs the problems. [[Then again, I'm not owed $$$ by either.)

I'm thankful for what Berry Gordy, Smokey, G & H, Thom Bell, and others brought to the world.

[soulster]

Only Teddy Pendergrass & Harold Melvin were on the Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes records.The other singers were Bunny Sigler, Sharon Paige & Kenny Gamble.Billy Paul had trouble getting his money, Richard Barett took his Three Degrees away from the label.Gamble & Huff were very creative BUT handling the business is a total different ballgame.

Your post does not make sense. Literally.

[soulster]

Read "House on Fire" about PIR records. Like Motown, tons and I mean tons of talent in the studios those days. But PIR also had financial problems and the talent was jumping ship like crazy near the end where only The O'Jays were keeping things alive.

This much I do know. McFadden & Whitehead were cheated too. But, all in all, the chaos didn't seem as severe as it was at Motown. And, the fact that Motown was [[relatively) financially healthy made a major difference. Seems like the Black label that did the best by their artists was Stax, and they faltered because Jim Stewart wasn't legally savvy, and Al Bell wasn't savvy with the money. And they were screwed over twice by major labels.

Anyone know why Solar Records faded away?

[thomas96]

You think it has anything to do with Philadelphia vs. Detroit?

The people coming from Philly vs. Detroit.. I know Motown was out of Detroit in the 70s.

[manny]

From the time, in the late 70's, when I purchased my copy of the french book "Soul Music" by Jean Louis Lamaison [[Albin Michel / Rock & Folk, 1977) and here I read that The O'Jays refused the propositions by Motown and Invictus "[[...) because those labels don't respect the originality of their artists and give them all the same sound [[...)" I was more convinced on my predilection on the PIR artists and stuff than before. Whit some exceptions [[70's stuff by Marvin and Stevie and my all-time favorite two albums by jerry Butler on Motown...). I don't knows if The O'Jays were totally right when they said that [[this was after Neptune flopped and before the creation of PIR) but I can see that Billy Paul is not only different from Three Degrees and other PIR acts, but also enormously unique and talented and totally different from any other soul act from Motown, Atlantic, Stax, Hi,... And the same with the great PIR stars with their uniqueness,... and the same with artists who previously have been and have had hits in other labels [[Lou Rawls, Futures,...) and with PIR have brings out the best of himself. And the same with many of the outside productions, soul sisters and soul brothers who comes to Philly to receive the magic touch of the session musicians, the Sigma "sound" and the touch of the regular Philly producers - arrangers...

[RossHolloway]

While PIR was successful, it was not nearly as big as Motown or the Motown Sound. I don't think the problems that plagued the Motown artist were any different than at any other label, then or now.

[smark21]

I agree with RossHolloway. Motown produced bigger stars than PIR. As a result the conflicts between Motown and their stars receive more play and attention that PIR had with theirs.