Motown mysteries

[captainjames]

Not sure why anyone has not written a book yet regarding the mysteries of Motown. I am sure it would sell big time. Just for fun I will start with two mysteries that has always blew my mind.

1. What ever happen to Betty McGlown ?

2. Who is really singing on the "Easy' album ? Tammi and Marvin ? Marvin and Valerie ?

[smark21]

Mark Bego wrote a quickie mystery novel a couple of years ago called Murder at Motor City [[or something like that about a murder at a Motown like record company. I bet the character based on Miss Ross was the killer.

[marv2]

Not sure why anyone has not written a book yet regarding the mysteries of Motown. I am sure it would sell big time. Just for fun I will start with two mysteries that has always blew my mind.

1. What ever happen to Betty McGlown ?

2. Who is really singing on the "Easy' album ? Tammi and Marvin ? Marvin and Valerie ?

1. What ever happen to Betty McGlown ?

She lived, got sick and died.

2. Who is really singing on the "Easy' album ? Tammi and Marvin ? Marvin and Valerie

All three of them.

I think a book of this type would be a huge loser because the niche market for this type of book is extremely small. I think the book on Dr. Thomas "Beans" Bowles is a better type book in that it answers a lot of questions that were never publicized in any other books that were Motown related.

[Ngroove]

I remember; as seeing on Eddie Kendricks' "Unsung" episode, concerning on their 1982 "Reunion" tour, the episode described Eddie's and perhaps David's second departure from the group as if Otis Williams and the rest's conspiring as if It was only a "one tour" deal, that they would be "fired" or dropped again or something once it's over. What really happened? Eddie Kendrick's "Unsung" no-future deal, or "Temptations Movie" David being David again, perhaps Eddie being Eddie again kinda thing?

[marv2]

I remember; as seeing on Eddie Kendricks' "Unsung" episode, concerning on their 1982 "Reunion" tour, the episode described Eddie's and perhaps David's second departure from the group as if Otis Williams and the rest's conspiring as if It was only a "one tour" deal, that they would be "fired" or dropped again or something once it's over. What really happened? Eddie Kendrick's "Unsung" no-future deal, or "Temptations Movie" David being David again, perhaps Eddie being Eddie again kinda thing?

From the beginning, I understood that it was suppose to be a one shot reunion tour and album and that Eddie and David were not rejoining the group permanently. I think that after a few shows and the hit single "Standing On the Top" that maybe David, and even Eddie toyed with thoughts of regrouping with the Tempts on a more permanent basis. I never believed Otis Williams would go for that arrangement.

[robb_k]

1. Who sang "I've Got A Right To Cry"? Was it Gloria Williamson with The Vandellas? Or was it The Velvelettes? Or a previously unknown singer?

2. Did The Five Quails record for Motown? Did Steve Mancha [[AKA Clyde Wilson)? Did Wilbur Jackson? Who else besides them, Harvey Fuqua, Johnny Bristol, Shorty Long, Junior Walker & The All Stars, The Spinners and Ann Bogan came into Motown when Harvey/Tri-Fi/HPC.Message Records [[Hardye Producing Corp.) was folded into Motown in spring 1963? Did Jackie Beavers come? Eddie Burns? Lorrie Rudolph? Ann Bogan's other Challengers III members? Did Harvey and Gwen keep the rights to all the Harvey/Tri-Phi recordings, or were the masters folded into Motown? I'm pretty sure that at least several of the songs became the property of Jobete Music. Which artist contracts other than those listed above, were folded in?

3. Which of Anna Records' artists, producers, songwriters were signed by Motown when Anna was folded into Motown in 1961- and which went with Billy Davis to Check-Mate [[Chess) at the split-up?

4. Which artists, writers/producers went to Motown along with David Ruffin, Lamont Dozier, The Del-Fi's [[Del-Phi's/Vells/Vandellas), The Voice Masters [[other than Ty Hunter)[[The future Originals [[other than Freddie Gorman)), and Alan Story in early 1962, when Billy Davis closed up Detroit's Check-Mate office and moved to Chicago to become Chief of A & R for Chess, taking Tony Clarke, and Ty Hunter [[and Jackey Beavers?) with him? Did Joey "King Fish", Willie Kendrick and Ruben Fort come to Motown, too?

5. Did Motown's Versatones [[1963) have the same lineup as that group had at Magic City Records in 1966 and 1967?

6. What were the particulars behind Don Juan Mancha, Don Davis, Tony Hester, Bob Hamilton [[AKA Rob Reeco), Ed Cobb, Joe Hunter, Mike Terry, Mickey Stevenson, Jack Ashford leaving Motown?

7. Which '60s Detroit producers NEVER even hung out at Motown [[other than Mike Hanks[[who ironically, had a production released on Soul) and Johnnie Mae Matthews [[who had a friendly relationship with Berry Gordy despite refusing to come work for him)?

8. Who produced Edward Earling's sessions? Why did he never get a release? Why did Wyatt "Big Boy" Shepherd never get a Motown release? What happened to "Need Your Love" Parts 1, 2 and 3 ???

9. Who kept Cornell Blakely's masters, Berry Gordy or Harry Balk? Why did Motown form their OWN Rich Records, when John Richbourg's Rich Records went bust, and could no longer distribute Blakely's records? Why didn't Berrt and Harry Balk just make a deal to release Blakely's future records on an existing Motown label, or form a new one NOT called Rich Records?

10. Who were the members of Andre Williams' Creations? Was one of them his cousin, as rumoured? Were they really from Detroiit [[as is the current thinking), or from Chicago, as I surmise?

11. Who were The Equadors? What is their history? Why didn't they have more releases?

12. Why didn't Gwen Owens and Emmanuel Laskey get releases at Motown? They didn't sound like Marvin Gaye [[or any other Motown artist)!

13. Why did Motown sign Patrice Holloway, Little Lisa, The Vows, and The Versatiles, in addition to Hal Davis, Frank Wilson, Marc Gordon, Gary and Chester Pipkin, Ed Cobb, Brenda Holloway and Oma Heard from their L,A. office in 1963, and NOT H.B. Barnum, James Carmichael, Gene and Billy Page, Gloria Jones, Edna Wright [[AKA Sandy Wynns), Mary Love, Pat Hunt, Barbara Wilson, and Jeanne King?

14. Is that really William Weatherspoon, singing the first demo of "Baby Hit and Run"?

I could go on and on............

[midnight johnny]

2. Who is really singing on the "Easy' album ? Tammi and Marvin ? Marvin and Valerie ?

No mystery there....

[marv2]

Robb, this would make a better board game [[better than "Motown-O-Poly"), than a book! LOL!

[Roger Polhill]

Oh damn! these were all the questions I had for you Robb!

[daviddesper]

Why did Motown sign Irene Ryan and what in the world was on that album? I don't recall ever seeing it on shelves back during the Motown heyday so I wondered if it really existed? Did it sell 14 copies or only 13?

[robb_k]

Robb, this would make a better board game [[better than "Motown-O-Poly"), than a book! LOL!

ONLY IF we could also supply the real answers to those questions [[sort of a "Motown Trivial Pursuit"),

[robb_k]

Why did Motown sign Irene Ryan and what in the world was on that album? I don't recall ever seeing it on shelves back during the Motown heyday so I wondered if it really existed? Did it sell 14 copies or only 13?

I don't know what was on her album. I never saw it. I did find and play her Motown 45. It wasn't very good. But, it wasn't as bad as I had expected. She didn't sing it in "granny's voice", but in her own, younger voice. Still, she didn't do all that impressive a performance on those 2 single cuts. I guess I don't like MOR music very much.

I think Berry signed Irene for publicity, just the same as signing Tony Martin, Bobby Breen and Sammy Davis, Jr. To get some connection with The Hollywood/New York show business crowd.

[robb_k]

Oh damn! these were all the questions I had for you Robb!

Well, I have my theories for about half of those questions. But, I'd like to know from an official source. As to the others, I probably should have asked all those questions to people inside Motown while I worked there. But, I didn't have the nerve. I also worked in the suite adjacent to Mickey Stevenson for a few years after leaving Motown and while working at Airwave Records. And we hobnobbed with him fairly often, and ate lunch together many times. But, again, I didn't want to act like a fanzine reporter.

Bunky Sheppard had the office suite on the other side of us, and I'm just as big a fan of "The Chicago Sound" as I am of Motown, And yet, I acted the same with him, other than being a little more "chummy", as I had lived in Chicago from 1959-70 [[in South Chicago) and had worked on The South Side, during the "classic" portion of his career, so we had a lot more in common. We talked about "Old times" in Chicago, but I didn't ask too many detailed questions about his career and record companies. Now, I'm sort of regretting that I wasn't more "nervy" or confident, or whatever it would have taken to ask those questions. I just felt that they wanted to associate with peers, not to have a bunch of "drooling record-collector fanboys" bothering them.

They probably wouldn't have remembered the answer to most of those questions about the 1950s and 1960s by the late 1970s and early 1980s, in any case. So, I'd have been grilling them for little possible gain, and possibly irritating them. So, I'm not sure I didn't make the right decision.

As to people I worked with at Motown, I knew more about Motown records and history than Tom DePierro and some of the people dealing with Natural Resources and album production. And our boss, Iris Gordy couldn't have answered most of those detailed questions. I asked a few questions to Robert Gordy, but, already, he didn't remember the answers to them, even in the mid 1970s [[sort of like Robert Bateman not remembering the answers to a lot of our questions in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s). I didn't have the nerve to try to talk to The Hollands, or anyone important. I did work with Freddy Gorman. But, just like with Mickey, I wanted to be a peer, not a fanboy reporter. So, I didn't ask him anything out of the context of what we discussed in the natural flow of conversation.

But, just like Robert Bateman, Robert Gordy, Mickey Stevenson, Cornell Blakely, Joe Hunter, and others we've talked to years later, I have forgotten where and when I've learned given information, so, I'd guess that a decent amount of what I DO know, came from talking with those people, and seeing official documents while working at Motown.

[arr&bee]

from the beginning, i understood that it was suppose to be a one shot reunion tour and album and that eddie and david were not rejoining the group permanently. I think that after a few shows and the hit single "standing on the top" that maybe david, and even eddie toyed with thoughts of regrouping with the tempts on a more permanent basis. I never believed otis williams would go for that arrangement.

hey marv,i don't think that shelly berger was going for it either,legend has it that if eddie came back to the temps shelly was gonna walk,not because he didn't like eddie but because his voice was gone.

[Methuselah2]

Why did Motown sign Irene Ryan and what in the world was on that album? I don't recall ever seeing it on shelves back during the Motown heyday so I wondered if it really existed? Did it sell 14 copies or only 13?

David - I believe Irene Ryan's Motown connection started with the 1972 Broadway, Bob Fosse-directed show PIPPIN that featured Irene in a Tony-nominated performance. Motown was one of the show's financial backers.

[captainjames]

That would make for some good reading.

I remember; as seeing on Eddie Kendricks' "Unsung" episode, concerning on their 1982 "Reunion" tour, the episode described Eddie's and perhaps David's second departure from the group as if Otis Williams and the rest's conspiring as if It was only a "one tour" deal, that they would be "fired" or dropped again or something once it's over. What really happened? Eddie Kendrick's "Unsung" no-future deal, or "Temptations Movie" David being David again, perhaps Eddie being Eddie again kinda thing?

[woodward]

I highly doubt that a book will ever be published answering all these well thought out questions, but I have a suggestion. A lot of these items would be great to discuss on the Motown Forum in one way or another. We have to discuss other aspects of Motown besides the Supremes. These other individuals were an integral part of the company too.

[marybrewster]

How about this question:

Did Irene Ryan open the door for Teena Marie at Motown?

[captainjames]

wow GOOD FIND Mary !!!

[robb_k]

I highly doubt that a book will ever be published answering all these well thought out questions, but I have a suggestion. A lot of these items would be great to discuss on the Motown Forum in one way or another. We have to discuss other aspects of Motown besides the Supremes. These other individuals were an integral part of the company too.

Attachment 8071
I'd like nothing more than to get new input on those questions, nearly all of which have been discussed here before. But, sadly, most of the people who were around inside Motown, who could have answered those questions have passed on, or have already been asked and couldn't remember small details of things that weren't very important to them, back then, many years ago. We must remember that they were just doing their jobs, not taking notes on trivia as record collectors.

[marv2]

ONLY IF we could also supply the real answers to those questions [[sort of a "Motown Trivial Pursuit"),

That was exactly what I was thinking Robb, a form of "Motown Trivial Pursuit" game. Now that would stand a chance of working if marketed right.

[mysterysinger]

What, if any, was Randy Crawford's relationship with Motown? She recorded at least one demo on Jobete [[Reach In Me i.e. Come To Me) plus, of course, was chummy with The Crusaders. Was there more to it?

[kenneth]

Who were the two girls who posed with Wanda on the cover of "The Return of the Marvelettes?"

[RossHolloway]

Who were the two girls who posed with Wanda on the cover of "The Return of the Marvelettes?"

I thought I read that the two ladies were from the group the Undisputed Truth.

[kenneth]

I thought I read that the two ladies were from the group the Undisputed Truth.

I read that too, but not sure if it's true. In the liner notes - I think to the 90s "Deliver" set Smokey Robinson said he didn't know who the girls were. Seems like he would have known if it was Billie and [[forget the other girl's name) from the UD.

[RossHolloway]

I read that too, but not sure if it's true. In the liner notes - I think to the 90s "Deliver" set Smokey Robinson said he didn't know who the girls were. Seems like he would have known if it was Billie and [[forget the other girl's name) from the UD.

I think I may have read it also in the biography book about the Marvelettes, but I could be mistaken.

[kenneth]

I think I may have read it also in the biography book about the Marvelettes, but I could be mistaken.

Ahh...I would trust Marc Taylor's book. I'll have to check that out again. Taylor seemed to be pretty accurate on most things. You never know, Smokey being the ultimate company man, he may have just said he didn't know thinking it was the better position to take.

[jobeterob]

Love the Teena Marie clip.

[marybrewster]

How much $$$ was Shantel Baker paid to replace Freda Payne in the Supremes?

[marybrewster]

[marv2]

How much $$$ was Shantel Baker paid to replace Freda Payne in the Supremes?

$12 and some change.

[mowsville]

give me strength...hijacked again.

[RossHolloway]

give me strength...hijacked again.

My thoughts exactly. There should be a way for a thread starter to delete/erase offending post instead of allowing some folks to hijack a thread.

[Methuselah2]

How about this question:

Did Irene Ryan open the door for Teena Marie at Motown?

What a terrific clip! Many thanks MB.

[smark21]

give me strength...hijacked again.

I guess that would be another Motown Mystery.

[Lulu]

I am officially blind and deaf after watching that video. My cat is typing this message.


Lulu

[arr&bee]

i am officially blind and deaf after watching that video. My cat is typing this message.


Lulu

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa,hey lulu,i bet your cat could get together with two other cats and sound better than those chicks.

[Roger Polhill]

Looks like a couple of old boilers!

[mowsville]

RossHolloway...time after time I skip threads involving discussions about who was a real Supreme etc etc because it bores me to death...I know who was a Supreme and who wasn't I wouldn't be in this forum if I didn't know...I am a real big Supremes fan but I also have a very big interest in all things Motown and I love coning to the forum to gain more knowledge and facts [[the more I know the better) but its getting beyond a joke when a great thread like this ends up having to include something stupid and irrelevant to the main topic..it was a great read up till then...l left the forum a few years back because my brain just couldn't take any more trivial Supremes thread titles every time I signed in...im seriously thinking of leaving again...why cant folks leave the crap for the crap threads and leave a great thread like this alone.

[RossHolloway]

RossHolloway...time after time I skip threads involving discussions about who was a real Supreme etc etc because it bores me to death...I know who was a Supreme and who wasn't I wouldn't be in this forum if I didn't know...I am a real big Supremes fan but I also have a very big interest in all things Motown and I love coning to the forum to gain more knowledge and facts [[the more I know the better) but its getting beyond a joke when a great thread like this ends up having to include something stupid and irrelevant to the main topic..it was a great read up till then...l left the forum a few years back because my brain just couldn't take any more trivial Supremes thread titles every time I signed in...im seriously thinking of leaving again...why cant folks leave the crap for the crap threads and leave a great thread like this alone.

Mowsville- I could not agree with you more. I love the Supreme's and Diana Ross, but I also love many other Motown artists and groups. I appreciate the posters who bring new information and pictures to the forum but I have no patience with the school yard bickering and post that only serve to stir up a hornets nest and tend to avoid those threads and those folks. They're like the annoying classmate, neighbor, co-worker...I try to avoid them like the plague. I wonder if Ralph T. might still go for my idea?...

[luke]

Did Motown promote the Lollipops at all?

[robb_k]

Did Motown promote the Lollipops at all?

Not that I know of. Motown didn't promote many of their OWN acts, They certainly wouldn't promote an act only HALF-owned by their company [[the other half was owned by Harry Balk, who had brought some of his Impact/Inferno artists into Motown along with his deal as a producer for them. Berry Gordy Just brought Balk in to get rid of more Detroit competition, as he did by buying out Ed Wingate's Golden World and Ric Tic, stealing several of Thelma's producers and writers, stealing several of the same from Don Davis and Lebaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions,etc.

[mowsville]

RossHolloway...exactly...well I really think he should..yes its easy to ignore the "useless Supremes information" threads but when they then impose on a thread that was doing fine without their input its real annoying...lets hope Ralph gives this some serious consideration...im behind you all the way.

[Ngroove]

Berry Gordy intentionally making an effort of pressuring radio stations NOT to promote Mary Wells' career, post-Motown, even though she left amicably, signed away with a contract NOT to use, mention, or profit from her past and "actual" hits. How was she expected to get bread, post mid-1964?

[motony]

I would not say Mary Wells left Motown amicably.

[marybrewster]

I would not say Mary Wells left Motown amicably.

I'd also add that Mary Wells biggest mistake was to leave Motown. It's true she might have been worth more money elsewhere, but in the end, did money help her?

[marybrewster]

wow GOOD FIND Mary !!!

Thank you. Not bad for the girl that "hijacked" this thread.

[RossHolloway]

Thank you. Not bad for the girl that "hijacked" this thread.

Do better.

[robb_k]

I'd also add that Mary Wells biggest mistake was to leave Motown. It's true she might have been worth more money elsewhere, but in the end, did money help her?

Yes. She should have stayed at least one more 4-year contract, to solidify her career, and ensure that she'd be too big for her public to forget her after her leaving Motown. Imagine Mary having had full promotion on her "Honey Boy", "When I'm Gone" and her other 1964 Motown-recorded recordings, as well as her having sung additional Smokey Robinson, Holland-Dozier Holland, Fuqua-Bristol, Stevenson-Hunter, Dean-Weatherspoon songs backed by The Funk Brothers from 1964 through 1968!!! She'd have been a MUCH, MUCH bigger star, she''d have been a wiser 25 years old when leaving [[although she might have re-signed AGAIN, staying until 1972. And, then, she'd also NOT have listened to her ex-husband, Herman Griffin when she got older and a little wiser,

[motownjohnny]

Does anyone know the whereabouts of the Golden World/Ric-Tic/Wingate masters?
When the company was bought by Motown I assumed they were all transferred into the main Motown tape library. It therefore surprises me that as far as I'm aware up until now there has been nothing of any unreleased Golden World material made available leading me to think that all unreleased recordings were retained by Ed Wingate and not handed over to Motown. Does anyone know what happened to these recordings and where the unreleased masters are now?