Truth In Music-Referencing The Delfonics, The Intruders, The Stylistics, & 3 Degrees

[AshleyScott]

Hey everyone. Please check out my recent blog about the Truth In Music Bill and as it relates to The Delfonics, The Stylistics, The Intruders, and The Three Degrees. http://www.IAmAshleyScott.com/TruthInMusic Please share the link on your social meda. Also let's talk about it here and on the site. This is an important topic.

[marv2]

This is a very important and interesting topic. I'm ready............

[jaybs]

Ashley is a great genuine young guy that I have known for many years, I fully support this bill, too many artists use a well established group name, and have no true connection, in fact a lot of general music fans attend events and will only find out the truth then, or may not even know then, which is wrong.

[ceasar]

Well done Ashley.
I hope this opens up a lot of eyes.
It is a shame how a lot of the original groups are not getting there due.
You have our support, 100%
Ceasar
THE
Original
Tymes

[Soul Sister]

Hey Ashley,
It's been a while. I am 100% with you on this, it's so important.
Another example would be "The Manhattans"; we have The Manhattans featuring lead sing Gerald Alston and original founding member Blue Lovett, the real deal. Then there was founding member Sonny Bivins group with no other Manhattans but instead The Cymbals group with Lee Williams imitating Gerald. For me this was so wrong when you had Gerald still living, performing, trying to earn the living that is rightfully his. My thoughts are other than Sonny [[who hasn't performed since 2006) is that this group is a fake group that is deceiving the public who is spending their money thinking they are going to see the real deal! It ain't right!
I wish you a lot of success with this bill, Ashley. I admire you for doing this for the original members who are out there still trying to make a living. Wishing you all the blessings.

S.S.
***

[marv2]

This is something that Mary Wilson, Jon Bowzer from Sha na na, Pat Benti, Charlie Thomas and others have been fighting for years for! I relate it all to being similar to "identity theft"!

[Soul Sister]

Yes they have Marv2, and I agree totally.

S.S.
***

[jillfoster]

I'm glad that the language seems to have been changed to "One recording member who has the legal right to use the group's name".. that whole "Original member" phrase that Mary always uses was just plain incorrect and problematic, especially considering that the Three Degrees hasn't had an original member in it since 1976 when Fayette left the group. The language that Ashley uses seems to be much better fit for all the groups invovled, considering the complicated history of some.

[AshleyScott]

Thanks everyone for your support. Feel free to post the link to your social media sites to get more awareness and discussion.

Also Jill....The Three Degrees have Helen Scott in the group who started with Fayette and came back to replace her. Don't want to debate on that too much but for the most part she is an original and Valerie is the longest running member.

[marv2]

Thanks everyone for your support. Feel free to post the link to your social media sites to get more awareness and discussion.

Also Jill....The Three Degrees have Helen Scott in the group who started with Fayette and came back to replace her. Don't want to debate on that too much but for the most part she is an original and Valerie is the longest running member.

Ashley, I always knew Helen was an original from back in the early sixties. I always wished I could have seen her perform alongside Fayette [[RIP).

I saw the Dramatics last summer and for some reason this issue popped up in my mind. L.J. Reynolds was there and did most of the lead singing ,but I also know that Willie Ford has his own group of Dramatics that consist of himself and four new singers that were never in the original group.

[smark21]

Aren't most of these laws written such that it either applies to an original or who holds the rights to the group's name. The latter could certainly act as a loophole. And what to do with a group in which none of the original members hit with the name and the group didn't achieve success or popularity until there was a completely overhauled line up? That's certainly the case for 80s girl group Expose. They were put together by producer/dj Lewis Martinee in the mid 80s and recorded a 12 inch dance single, Point of No Return, that did decently on the regional club charts. Arista signed Expose, but Clive Davis said the original girls had to be fired and replaced with singers with more star quality. That's what happened. The new line up re-recorded Point of No Return and made the debut album and they hit big. Expose reunited back in 2007 and for a few years were in court with Martinee over the name of the group, but they won so the members of Expose now own their name.

[AshleyScott]

Marv I wish there was footage of that era of The Three Degrees but we don't have any. The Swan recordings are great though cause you here Helen, Fayette, Janet Harmon, and Sheila Ferguson adding in a note.

Smark Each case and group is definitely different . But this law is important and needs to be enforced more. The problem is with re-elections every 4 years you have educate the new people who come into offices.

[Ngroove]

OK; question; with the Four Tops, long may Duke Fakir, the last original founding member, for all I know, only Levi / Lawrence / Duke / Obie was the Four Tops lineup who recorded Four Tops albums, live, perform, but I know as the years go by, especially considering today they were formed about sixty years ago, he cannot be around forever. Will the Four Tops, post Duke, be still called "Four Tops", or have to tag themselves with "Revue" or "Formely Known as" or something to continue? Oh wait, Lawrence Payton's son is with them, but still...

[milven]

OK; question; with the Four Tops, long may Duke Fakir, the last original founding member, for all I know, only Levi / Lawrence / Duke / Obie was the Four Tops lineup who recorded Four Tops albums, live, perform, but I know as the years go by, especially considering today they were formed about sixty years ago, he cannot be around forever. Will the Four Tops, post Duke, be still called "Four Tops", or have to tag themselves with "Revue" or "Formely Known as" or something to continue? Oh wait, Lawrence Payton's son is with them, but still...

This actually happened already with a group called The Mills Brothers, a popular thirties group whose final hit was in the 1960s. They were four brothers. When one brother, John Jr., died, the father John Sr. stepped in to allow the group to continue. I actually remember that group performing on Ed Sullivan. When the father retired, the group became a trio. Eventually, another Mills Brother died, and they performed as a duo. Then one more died, and the soul surviving original member brought in his son as a Mills Brother. When the last original Mills Brother died, the son continued the group.

From Wikopedia:
The Mills Brothers' fiftieth anniversary in show business was celebrated in 1976 with a tribute at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion in Los Angeles, hosted by Bing Crosby. At the time, Harry was now almost blind because of diabetes.

As a trio, Herbert, Harry and Donald continued performing on the oldies circuit until Harry's death in 1982. Herbert and Donald continued until Herbert's death in 1989. Then, Donald began performing with the third generation of the family – his son, John III. In 1998 the Recording Academy recognized the Mills family's contributions to popular music when it presented Donald, as the sole surviving member, with a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement.

After Donald's death of pneumonia on November 13, 1999, John III began touring under the name "The Mills Brothers" with Elmer Hopper, who had previously sung lead with Paul Robi's Platters.

[REDHOT]

The thing is, when they are tribute group's like The Sound Of The Supremes,it's nothing they can do,NOTHING.

[milven]

The thing is, when they are tribute group's like The Sound Of The Supremes,it's nothing they can do,NOTHING.

The law allows you to bill yourself as a tribute group, so there is something that you can do about it.

The law makes it mandatory for a live performance to include at least one recording member of the group who still has the right to use the group name. Otherwise, the act must be billed as a“ tribute” or a “salute to [[group’s name)” so that the public knows what it’s paying for

I think anyone who leaves a group should also give up the right to use the name of the group. Otherwise, you can have three or four groups with one original member touring the country. Mary gave herself a bunch of trouble when she left the group, but then toured as Mary Wilson and The Supremes. She should have stayed with the group if she intended to continue calling herself a Supreme. I'm not singling her out. It happens in other groups too. It gets confusing when you see different groups of Stylistics, Delfonics, Chi-lites, Supremes, Shirelles, Temptations and many of them have an original member in them. Its a difficult situation to solve, but I am glad to see that they are working on it.

Can you imagine how people must feel when they buy an album like this and then go home to listen to something that is definitely not the Supremes?

[smark21]

At a certain don't the gigs dry up for these acts the further away they get away from their hit making primes? And what gigs are "Mills Brothers" scoring these days?

[milven]

At a certain don't the gigs dry up for these acts the further away they get away from their hit making primes? And what gigs are "Mills Brothers" scoring these days?

They're scoring some of the same gigs that some the other oldies acts discussed here are scoring. Cruises, Florida [[which I call God's Waiting Room ) and the oldies circuit. The original group has been around since the 1920's. I think groups like the Temps or 4 Tops can do this too. They are both groups that never disbanded, just transformed and evolved.

The Mills Brothers were performing in Florida as recently as a few months ago

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-mil...ts-10457279003

[jillfoster]

Thanks everyone for your support. Feel free to post the link to your social media sites to get more awareness and discussion.

Also Jill....The Three Degrees have Helen Scott in the group who started with Fayette and came back to replace her. Don't want to debate on that too much but for the most part she is an original and Valerie is the longest running member.

I was always under the impression that Helen was not an original member... but close to it. I thought the original members were Shirley Porter, Fayette, and Linda Turner? But my point was mainly that legislation has to be very carefullly crafted, because there are so many different situations to take into account, like was mentioned with Expose'. Sometimes an original lineup has no hits, sometimes they DO, and a completely different lineup has hits as well, I've always used this an example, because it's such a good one to illustrate the point, both had major hit records, 4 completely different people, but the "second" lineup has remained unchanged and intact for exactly 40 years now, and if any legislation relegates a group to an "original member" that hitmaking group of 40 years would have no stand to perform [[though the original group is much better, IMO)

[jillfoster]

[jillfoster]

My biggest beef has ALWAYS been this. I don't feel that a producer, record company, etc should legally be ABLE to own the name of a group. I think legally it should restricted to performing members of said group.

[Ngroove]

They're scoring some of the same gigs that some the other oldies acts discussed here are scoring. Cruises, Florida [[which I call God's Waiting Room ) and the oldies circuit. The original group has been around since the 1920's. I think groups like the Temps or 4 Tops can do this too. They are both groups that never disbanded, just transformed and evolved.

The Mills Brothers were performing in Florida as recently as a few months ago

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-mil...ts-10457279003

No, even if / after Otis Williams' departure, one way or another, according to rule, "recording members", so it still takes Ron Tyson [["Treat Her Like A Lady" - "Stay" - on, 1983 + ) and Terry Weeks [["Stay", Phoenix Rising - on, 1998 + ) out before the Temptations lose their notable, hit-making members, so the people won't recognize them as "The" Temptations.

[smark21]

My biggest beef has ALWAYS been this. I don't feel that a producer, record company, etc should legally be ABLE to own the name of a group. I think legally it should restricted to performing members of said group.

But what if the group was put together via audition by a production company or a record company? That certainly complicates matters. Expose won their case in part because their former producers try to claim they had the right to use the name on whomever they choose to hire, but the court pointed out that the company hadn't used the name after the group disbanded in 1996 so they abdicated the use of the name.

[AshleyScott]

But what if the group was put together via audition by a production company or a record company? That certainly complicates matters. Expose won their case in part because their former producers try to claim they had the right to use the name on whomever they choose to hire, but the court pointed out that the company hadn't used the name after the group disbanded in 1996 so they abdicated the use of the name.

I agree that companies and managers should not own the names but sometimes it is there creation. It is a sticky subject but everyone does have a different case.

[milven]

Artists should have a lawyer when signing contracts. Berry changed the Primettes name because he didn't like names ending in "ettes". But he had no problem with the Marvellettes. He changed the name of the Otis' group to Temptations because there was already a group called the Elgins. But a few years later, he had no problem changing another groups name to Elgins and then recording them for Motown. Berry's real intent was to own the talents name. They could not leave the label with their name. Mary lost Jean and Lynda because she did not want to lose her group's name. The Temptations lost future royalties because they wanted to take their name to Atlantic.

This could be avoided if the talent wasn't young and dewy eyed when the contracts were placed under their noses to sign. They should have had a lawyer with them to point out things that may have seemed insignificant to them at the time.3

[smark21]

Artists should have a lawyer when signing contracts. Berry changed the Primettes name because he didn't like names ending in "ettes". But he had no problem with the Marvellettes. He changed the name of the Otis' group to Temptations because there was already a group called the Elgins. But a few years later, he had no problem changing another groups name to Elgins and then recording them for Motown. Berry's real intent was to own the talents name. They could not leave the label with their name. Mary lost Jean and Lynda because she did not want to lose her group's name. The Temptations lost future royalties because they wanted to take their name to Atlantic.

This could be avoided if the talent wasn't young and dewy eyed when the contracts were placed under their noses to sign. They should have had a lawyer with them to point out things that may have seemed insignificant to them at the time.3

Good point. But how many lawyers in Detroit were experts in the finer points of entertainment industry contracts? I remember reading Peter Benjamonson's book on Flo and he pointed out when she was ousted from The Supremes, she turned to a lawyer in Detroit who wasn't an entertainment attorney. And she didn't get as good a deal if she had gone with someone from NYC or LA. So while these young kids might have benefited from legal representation, we can only speculate to what extent their rights would have been protected without a entertainment contracts specialist giving counsel.

[jobeterob]

Good point. But how many lawyers in Detroit were experts in the finer points of entertainment industry contracts? I remember reading Peter Benjamonson's book on Flo and he pointed out when she was ousted from The Supremes, she turned to a lawyer in Detroit who wasn't an entertainment attorney. And she didn't get as good a deal if she had gone with someone from NYC or LA. So while these young kids might have benefited from legal representation, we can only speculate to what extent their rights would have been protected without a entertainment contracts specialist giving counsel.

The Temptations signed away their Motown royalties when they went to Atlantic???

Surely not??? They would have had to be nuts or absolutely desperate for money, ala a few Jacksons and Supremes.

[marv2]

The Temptations signed away their Motown royalties when they went to Atlantic???

Surely not??? They would have had to be nuts or absolutely desperate for money, ala a few Jacksons and Supremes.

-and why would they be desperate for money after having multi- million sellers for Motown? hmmmmmm................

Let's all go see the fabulous "Motown Musical"! Doo Dah.........hehehehehehehehe!

[reese]

The Temptations signed away their Motown royalties when they went to Atlantic???

Surely not??? They would have had to be nuts or absolutely desperate for money, ala a few Jacksons and Supremes.

Otis has said that Smokey helped the group leave Motown with their name. He never mentioned having to give up royalties. Considering they were only gone for two years, I hope they were reinstated when they came back, if they were indeed ever signed away.