The crazy vegan movement

[jillfoster]

I've noticed an alarming uptick in these glassy-eyed stepford activists trying to force the world into their way of eating. Not only that, they can't seem to grasp that animals die for their TOFU as well, and when you point that out, you either get hostility or stony silence. All the misinformation and BS being spread around just makes me shake my head.

[jobeterob]

Putting aside the rabid people on any issue, vegetarian and vegan do seem to be growing movements with growing numbers of people being interested.

[jillfoster]

Putting aside the rabid people on any issue, vegetarian and vegan do seem to be growing movements with growing numbers of people being interested.

Yes, and alot if it due to misinformation and people being "shamed" into it. As with any hot button issue, the truth always lies in the middle.

[antceleb12]

There are a lot of crazies out there, but just as with anything, there are also those who aren't nutty. I know plenty of vegan people who don't fit that description you just described. The vegan movement is not for me, but if it works for others, that's fine. Also, I see nothing wrong with vegans trying to spread information about what it is, so long as they don't shame me for choosing to eat meat - which there are plenty that don't.

[jillfoster]

There are a lot of crazies out there, but just as with anything, there are also those who aren't nutty. I know plenty of vegan people who don't fit that description you just described. The vegan movement is not for me, but if it works for others, that's fine. Also, I see nothing wrong with vegans trying to spread information about what it is, so long as they don't shame me for choosing to eat meat - which there are plenty that don't.

Yes, spreading biological and medical misinformation to justify themselves is my big issue. There are a huge amount of people whose health has collapsed due to vegan diets, and they don't want to accept it.

[westgrandboulevard]

I can't help but notice how many sales people in health food stores look rather pale and unwell....

[Jerry Oz]

I am far from vegan, but I choose not to eat meat [[except for fish, which I may soon cut from my menu). I do it for personal reasons and could not care less what anyone else eats. God bless you and your pickled pig's feet.

[soulster]

I've noticed an alarming uptick in these glassy-eyed stepford activists trying to force the world into their way of eating. Not only that, they can't seem to grasp that animals die for their TOFU as well, and when you point that out, you either get hostility or stony silence. All the misinformation and BS being spread around just makes me shake my head.

What's so alarming about it? I don't see anyone trying to force anyone to eat their way.

I do not believe animals were put here for us to eat, but I have nothing against eating animals if they are killed as humanely as possible.

The problems with eating animals is that they contain a lot of things that are unhealthy to humans. That's a good reason to not eat them. Lord knows the checks and balances that were once part of our food supply chain are virtually non-existent today, mostly because of the companies' constant quest to cut costs and fatten profits.

There is recent evidence that there is a natural chemical in red meat that contributes to heart disease. You under-cook it, you risk food poisoning and parasites. Over-cook it, and you risk cancer. Nitrites and nitrates, used in curing and preserving, are confirmed carcinogens. It contains animal fat and animal protein, which actually can cause cancer. For those reasons alone, I cut way back on my meat consumption. Fish is no safer. On the other hand, you risk deadly bacteria from eating contaminated fruits and veggies. There are certain vitamins and other nutrients you become deficient of by not eating meat. However, one can live a perfectly healthy life without it. One can find the dame things in grains and plants.

Everyone must make a choice of what is right for themselves. I tried being a vegetarian and a vegan and they don't work for me. But, I also do not eat a lot of meat anyway. I just feel better when I don't.

I do have one question for you, though: what do you consider BS? What information do you trust? I do not trust the established medical or scientific community, not do I trust what the meat industry says. And, I sure as hell don't trust anything the conservatives have to say.

[soulster]

Yes, spreading biological and medical misinformation to justify themselves is my big issue. There are a huge amount of people whose health has collapsed due to vegan diets, and they don't want to accept it.

Some people do not thrive under a vegan diet. Some do. It's all about the individual. That's the part that everyone seems to ignore. Everyone must do what is best for their bodies. That means to pay attention to it! We, as humans, have forgotten how to listen to what our bodies tell us.

I eat meat. I like an occasional cheese burger with bacon. I like prime rib. But, I seek out meat that comes from animals that have not been fed any antibiotics. I discovered, for myself, that meat that has antibiotics and other additives has negative affects on my health. So, I avoid it. I also avoid vitamins, alcohol, and most meds. My body reacts negatively to them all. You may be different. Again, we all have to choose what is best, and ignore the extremists.

[jillfoster]

Some people do not thrive under a vegan diet. Some do. It's all about the individual. That's the part that everyone seems to ignore. Everyone must do what is best for their bodies. That means to pay attention to it! We, as humans, have forgotten how to listen to what our bodies tell us.

I eat meat. I like an occasional cheese burger with bacon. I like prime rib. But, I seek out meat that comes from animals that have not been fed any antibiotics. I discovered, for myself, that meat that has antibiotics and other additives has negative affects on my health. So, I avoid it. I also avoid vitamins, alcohol, and most meds. My body reacts negatively to them all. You may be different. Again, we all have to choose what is best, and ignore the extremists.

My problem is that many vegans try to put forth this notion that the human body was not designed to eat meat... which is totally untrue. I don't have a problem with people living how they want, just spreading medical and biological misinformation is my main beef, and acting as if they are somewhow morally superior for living that way. The human body was obviously not designed to be vegan, or else, life could be supported on a vegan diet with ZERO supplementation, fortification, or food that has been artifically manipulated. And YES... hormones are a big problem. The american indians before the white man came didn't have all these health issues, but then again, their meat was grass fed, organic, and cooked over open fire. Not shot full of hormones, corn fed, rolled in flour and deep fat fried. I don't feel the meat itself is the problem, the type and style of preparation is the problem.

[soulster]

[QUOTE=jillfoster;218829]

My problem is that many vegans try to put forth this notion that the human body was not designed to eat meat...

It wasn't. But, it can handle moderate amounts with a proper diet and exercise. Some people eat that stuff every stinking day with every stinkin' meal, with tons of starch and dairy! I know millions grew up like that, but did they have health issues? Yes.

I don't have a problem with people living how they want, just spreading medical and biological misinformation is my main beef, and acting as if they are somewhow morally superior for living that way.

You still have not told me why you say it is misinformation.

The human body was obviously not designed to be vegan,

Cite evidence, please.

or else, life could be supported on a vegan diet with ZERO supplementation, fortification, or food that has been artifically manipulated.

No, you do not need any of that!

And YES... hormones are a big problem. The american indians before the white man came didn't have all these health issues, but then again, their meat was grass fed, organic, and cooked over open fire. Not shot full of hormones, corn fed, rolled in flour and deep fat fried. I don't feel the meat itself is the problem, the type and style of preparation is the problem.

Not just hormones, antibiotics are used because the animals are kept in such close quarters and forced to wallow in their own feces. They eat feed made from animals that had to be layed down, with more drugs, plus pesticides and other nasties. Then, they slaughter them in unsanitary conditions by untrained illegals who do whatever to the meat. Or, the meat comes from third-world countries where we can't be sure of the conditions of the animals, the workers, or facilities.

[arr&bee]

Say when we finish this conversation,let's go get a nice juicy steak...meat forever.

[jillfoster]

[QUOTE=soulster;218842]

Cite evidence, please.




.

The fact that such a high percentage of vegan women lose their menstrual cycle should be proof enough. What makes you think we weren't designed to eat meat? We do not have the bacteria in our digestive tract to metabolize plant proteins like ruminant animals do. Don't confuse the issue, please, I'm talking about the eating of meat in it's pure, unadulterated form... not meat that is shot full of hormones and processed badly. Like when I go out and shoot a squirrel and eat it. And you simply cannot support life on a vegan diet without supplementation [[that is the misinformation that I am referrring to). Modern technology and artificial manipulation of food allows veganism to exist. You would die if you had tried it in the 1800's. You cannot get vitamin B12 and several of the essential fatty acids from plants.


http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/11/re...or-vegans.html

[soulster]

[QUOTE=jillfoster;218849]

The fact that such a high percentage of vegan women lose their menstrual cycle should be proof enough.

Well, no, it's not. It's called amenorrea, when girls who are underweight either start menses later or lose it. Of course, most vegans are probably underweight anyway, and many of them are athletes. It has nothing to do with not eating meat. On the other hand, overweight girls start menses earlier because of extra body fat.

[splanky]

The real "uptick" to me today is that there are so many more people who believe they can tell everyone else what to believe, how to think and how to live. Oppinion gets confused
with fact and most forget that human beings we all have the right to be wrong. Whatever you perceive wrong to be. I'm not offended or bullied by vegans or vegetarians at all. I
love vegetables but I also love meat. People do a lot of things I don't, wouldn't, think silly
myself but I can't stop them and don't even try. Wouldn't work, so what's the point?....

[roger]

My theory is that we all end up dying whatever we eat so we might as well eat whatever we feel comfortable with and make the best of it ...

Having said that, one of my favourite tipples .. Samuel Smith's Pure Brewed Organic Lager .. is vegan .. as indeed is virtually the entire Samuel Smith's range of beverages ...

http://www.samuelsmithsbrewery.co.uk/



Roger

[jillfoster]

The real "uptick" to me today is that there are so many more people who believe they can tell everyone else what to believe, how to think and how to live. Oppinion gets confused
with fact and most forget that human beings we all have the right to be wrong. Whatever you perceive wrong to be. I'm not offended or bullied by vegans or vegetarians at all. I
love vegetables but I also love meat. People do a lot of things I don't, wouldn't, think silly
myself but I can't stop them and don't even try. Wouldn't work, so what's the point?....

I'd say your'e right about that. I see it in the political arena, too. I don't feel bullied by them, but I see other around me affected, friends and such, and that's what make me mad.

[soulster]

How are they being bullied?

[Jerry Oz]

IMO, anyone who explains their point of view and gets upset when someone doesn't jump on board needs to STFU instead of getting upset and resorting to bullying. I never felt bullied away from eating meat. However, I do have a problem with the fact that the American diet is so attrocious that uneducated [[typically poor) people - and especially kids - eat in such a manner that they become overweight and start to have problems associated with that condition.

Diabetes, high blood pressure, asthma, and a whole range of other conditions send them to the emergency room and because they aren't covered by medical insurance, the cost of my medical care and insurance goes up. WTF?!

Now, I have to face a hard choice when I get sick because I have to rearrange my budget around my $2,200 annual deductible when I go to the doctor. Paying $150 for the visit and another $100 for prescriptions is impactful.

And a lot of those out of shape moochers seem to be at the front of the "you can't force me to get health care" line. I guess it's well and good for you when I have to pay for your health care at the expense of my own health. So, as far as I'm concerned it's quite okay for public policy to insist that public dollars be allocated toward subsidized meals that are not unhealthy, if not truly healthy.

Americans don't want to know what is happening at the meat factory. And it's much harder to find and afford meat without hormones and [[especially) antibiotics. It's hard to afford to eat food that's good for you. Eat all of the meat you want. Just don't claim to be ignorant of all of the detrimental side effects therefrom when you start to experience them.

[soulster]

Americans don't want to know what is happening at the meat factory. And it's much harder to find and afford meat without hormones and [[especially) antibiotics. It's hard to afford to eat food that's good for you. Eat all of the meat you want. Just don't claim to be ignorant of all of the detrimental side effects therefrom when you start to experience them.

That's all i'm sayin'!

You can't totally avoid the bad stuff unless you raise your own animals and slaughter them yourself, but if you make better choices about what you eat, and how much, you will probably come out better than those tea-baggers who yell "You socialists can't tell me what to do", who drink, smoke, use oxygen, are one step away from a triple-bypass and a stroke, and take three types of insulin injections.

[Jerry Oz]

The ones who think they already had "free" healthcare because the hospitals can't get blood from a rock. So they get my blood instead. What is more socialist than making those who can afford and are willing to pay for something also pay for the deadbeats who choose not to?

Back on point, I've known several people who had diabetes who chose to ignore their diets until they had feet or legs amputated. Only one of them did not regret that stance in hindsight. People fail to realize that through our tax dollars, we are subsidizing big dairy producers as well as corn and soy producers. The dairy industry passes hormonally-tainted milk to the consumer whereas corn and soy merchants are making a killing by putting their genetically modified crops into literally every food product on the shelves of mainstream groceries.

jillfoster is 100% correct to assert that many so-called vegans make themselves sick by avoiding meat and dairy, but consuming other, equally dangerous "natural" foods.

[soulster]

The ones who think they already had "free" healthcare because the hospitals can't get blood from a rock. So they get my blood instead. What is more socialist than making those who can afford and are willing to pay for something also pay for the deadbeats who choose not to?

What you are missing about the beauty of Obamacare is that if you don't get registered, you will still pay a tax penalty. So, you are, in effect still paying for it. And, if you get catastrophically ill, you will appreciate the plan without going bankrupt. and being refused care.

If you are a smoker, or don't take care of yourself, it is in your best interest to do so. Call it social engineering if you must, but it's our responsibility to create a better world. I'd like to see state-funded education that can realistically be paid back.

Back on point, I've known several people who had diabetes who chose to ignore their diets until they had feet or legs amputated. Only one of them did not regret that stance in hindsight. People fail to realize that through our tax dollars, we are subsidizing big dairy producers as well as corn and soy producers. The dairy industry passes hormonally-tainted milk to the consumer whereas corn and soy merchants are making a killing by putting their genetically modified crops into literally every food product on the shelves of mainstream groceries.

'

So, instead of whining about Obamacare, why not complain about our tax dollars going to the selling of unhealthy food, especially to those who are at most risk?

jillfoster is 100% correct to assert that many so-called vegans make themselves sick by avoiding meat and dairy, but consuming other, equally dangerous "natural" foods.

She's not. I don't eat much meat dairy beyond the occasional burger and I get sick way less then most people I know that do. In fact, I rarely ever get sick. I came through with flying colors at my last mandatory check-up. I don't even take vitamins. They make me ill.

[Jerry Oz]

She's not. I don't eat much meat dairy beyond the occasional burger and I get sick way less then most people I know that do. In fact, I rarely ever get sick. I came through with flying colors at my last mandatory check-up. I don't even take vitamins. They make me ill.

I was referring to people who want to consider themselves vegan but don't eat sustainably grown and organic food. I'm finding it very difficult to avoid GMO produce and foods that I didn't know had meat in them. I just had to learn what "animal rennet" was in my cheese and switch over to cheese made with vegetable rennet. They are also coming up with new names for corn and soy by-products so people don't know their food contains them. Agri-business is also petitioning the FDA to consider GMO produce to legally be "natural" so that labeling can confuse otherwise informed consumers. It's no wonder that so many of us get sick and don't know why.

Now that you mention it [[and now I'm going to jinx myself...), I haven't been sick since I broke away from meat last July. I cannot lay a claim to it being because of my dietary change yet, although I do feel much better now than I did then.

[jillfoster]

I was referring to people who want to consider themselves vegan but don't eat sustainably grown and organic food. I'm finding it very difficult to avoid GMO produce and foods that I didn't know had meat in them. I just had to learn what "animal rennet" was in my cheese and switch over to cheese made with vegetable rennet. They are also coming up with new names for corn and soy by-products so people don't know their food contains them. Agri-business is also petitioning the FDA to consider GMO produce to legally be "natural" so that labeling can confuse otherwise informed consumers. It's no wonder that so many of us get sick and don't know why.

Now that you mention it [[and now I'm going to jinx myself...), I haven't been sick since I broke away from meat last July. I cannot lay a claim to it being because of my dietary change yet, although I do feel much better now than I did then.

I don't get sick because I never touch doorknobs! LOL But really, I've rarely seen this kind of zealotry within the vegetarian community, it's vegans that always seem to go down this road. Your vegetarian diet is not something that will do you harm at all, vegan take the attitude if "a little bit is good, a WHOLE LOT must be better". Soulster asked how the bullying goes on. Primarily on the net and in the workplace, pretty much the exact same way conservatives in the workplace get their agendas across.... it's done in the exact same way, just from the other end of the spectrum. Soulster, you are getting along great because you are not completely vegan. Truthfully, we don't need all that much meat... just some occasionally to get certain nutrients, and those can be stored by our bodies so they don't have to be taken in every day, or even every week. Another big fallacy that the vegan movement puts forth is this BS claim that 99 percent of the meat consumed in the United States comes from factory farms. That's utter shit. Factory farms are HORRIBLE, almost every single person agrees on that. But of the 2.2 million farms in the United States, 4% are factory farms. And they are regulated, there is no way that 96% of the farms only produce 1% of the meat products. You mentioned not being able to get hormone free animal products. I do at my grocery store all the TIME. They are available around here in every suburban and rural grocery store.. the only place you don't find them is in the ghetto, and that's a whole nother topic, with food deserts, etc... But Hiland Dairy, one of our biggest suppliers here with it's plant in Springfield, Mo and Kansas City, Kansas, sell all milk that is certified free of growth hormones. This started in 2008, due to consumer demand. And as far as beef, thiws brand of beef is for sale at every single grocery store in my area, in fact, over 80 percent of the grocery stores in Missouri carry it. And I buy it.

http://www.naturewellbeef.com/AboutUs/About-Naturewell

[Jerry Oz]

The only places that sell hormone free dairy and meat where I live [[Central Ohio) are Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, and similar outlets. If you go to Kroger, WalMart, Giant Eagle and other chain grocers, they sell almost exclusively meat from giant slaughterhouses. That's why we have the occasional recall for hundreds of tons of hamburger that was sold a year ago over an entire region of the country. A year ago?! Seriously?

The FDA handles its regulatory responsibilities very loosely because the agribusiness lobbyists are very effective. You'll find more inspectors harassing those small farms that you described than you will the few meat producers responsible for the majority of the meat that we consume. If you check your facts, you'll find that the small farms are not the main producers, BTW. The FDA sends its agents to them to make sure they keep our food supply safe, yet they permit the factories to police themselves.

There are even laws in most states that make it illegal or very difficult to buy raw milk from a small farmer and it is against federal law to carry it over state lines. Curiously, you have almost no record of the family farms putting dangerous product on the store shelves and a decades old history of factory farms killing people with tainted meat. I support small farmers 100% and wish that the elected officials would do more to support them instead of factory farming.

And to your point, jillfoster, there are zealots in every movement and mindset. You're better off to let them chirp and leave them alone. Those people you're talking about are the same ones that are against animal testing of drugs, even when it will save human lives and bring life saving pharmaceuticals to market much sooner. I find life to be a precious commodity, but those people can go blow themselves.

[soulster]

The only places that sell hormone free dairy and meat where I live [[Central Ohio) are Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, and similar outlets. If you go to Kroger, WalMart, Giant Eagle and other chain grocers, they sell almost exclusively meat from giant slaughterhouses.

Kroger has a house brand that features organic meat called "Simple Truth.

[Jerry Oz]

I don't eat meat, but Kroger does have tons of organic and otherwise healthy things. My wife remains carnivorous but our Kroger stores don't sell organic or hormone free meat. I'm a fan of a lot of Simple Truth products. They are the reason I shop at Kroger instead of WalMart, which has lower prices.

[jillfoster]

I can tell you this, I NEVER EVER buy meat at Walmart. That's just a given.

[soulster]

I can tell you this, I NEVER EVER buy meat at Walmart. That's just a given.

I know walmart lovers who won't buy their meat.