Finding the funk

**timmyfunk** · 02-04-2014, 01:25 PM

Tonight on VH1 at 10:00pm.

**soulster** · 02-05-2014, 01:07 PM

I watched it last night, and thought Nelson George spent just a bit too much time talking about P-Funk. And, he ignored The Isley Brothers completely!

What I didn't know until last night was that Sly Stone recorded the entire "There's A Riot Going On" by himself.

**timmyfunk** · 02-05-2014, 02:42 PM

I thought they didn't talk about P-Funk enough. That's the consciousness of the Funk movement.

I was surprised that they didn't mention Rick James. Overall, I'm not sure that Nelson George was the right person to do a Funk documentary.

**tamla617** · 02-05-2014, 06:56 PM

I didn't see it, I cant get VH1, I wonder if the BBC will buy it. I'm not keen on Mr George from other tv programmes he's been on, mainly just talking head type comments. I found him annoying. You cant get too much P anything! Its [[Funk) such a subject it could fill a programme every week for years to do it properly IMO. Sly, JB's family, Ohio, Kool, P funk movement, EWF, Brass Construction the list goes on and on doesn't it?

**soulster** · 02-05-2014, 11:24 PM

My only gripe with Nelson George is that in his book "The Death of Rhythm & Blues", he is, IMO, a bit too critical of early 80s R&B.

He does embrace hip-hop to a fault.

**soulster** · 02-05-2014, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

I was surprised that they didn't mention Rick James. Overall, I'm not sure that Nelson George was the right person to do a Funk documentary.

That's right! No mention of Rick James, Curtis Mayfield, or The Isley Brothers. Notice, though, he even managed to mention...Kool & The Gang???

**timmyfunk** · 02-06-2014, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

My only gripe with Nelson George is that in his book "The Death of Rhythm & Blues", he is, IMO, a bit too critical of early 80s R&B.

He does embrace hip-hop to a fault.

This is true. I can embrace 1980's R&B up until 1983. After that, I cannot hang.

**soulster** · 02-06-2014, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

This is true. I can embrace 1980's R&B up until 1983. After that, I cannot hang.

I agree. Up to about 1983, R&B was still fresh. By the end of 80s, or in 84, the merge with hip-started in the attempt to stay relevant to the younger generation.

This is not to say that there wasn't some damn good R&B after that point, but it seems that, after that time, almost every R&B song had computerized or electronic drums, synthesized bass, tons of keyboards, and a rap in the middle of every song.

I love hip-hop/rap, but, as it and R&B became fused, the more traditional R&B became the sound of the older generation, probably the sound of a lot of the forum members.

**timmyfunk** · 02-06-2014, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

I agree. Up to about 1983, R&B was still fresh. By the end of 80s, or in 84, the merge with hip-started in the attempt to stay relevant to the younger generation.

This is not to say that there wasn't some damn good R&B after that point, but it seems that, after that time, almost every R&B song had computerized or electronic drums, synthesized bass, tons of keyboards, and a rap in the middle of every song.

I love hip-hop/rap, but, as it and R&B became fused, the more traditional R&B became the sound of the older generation, probably the sound of a lot of the forum members.

Gratuitously loud drums and keyboards played by people who may know how to play an instrument, but don't know how to manipulate an instrument [[i.e. Bernie Worrell). However, I was digging the New Jack Swing era for a minute.

**Jerry Oz** · 02-06-2014, 07:04 PM

Jam & Lewis and LA & Babyface kept R&B relevant for me in the '80s, even if nobody else did. And I remember when Nelson George wrote for Billboard. He always wrote from a condescending viewpoint that was off-putting. Everytime I see him on something, he's that guy who passes himself off as THE authority on music instead of letting others reach that conclusion on their own.

**soulster** · 02-07-2014, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

Gratuitously loud drums

Wait a minute...Tony Thompson had a reputation of playing VERY loud and hard. He actually blew out microphones when he recorded with Chic. They would set them clear across the room and he would still burn them out.

**soulster** · 02-07-2014, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Oz

Jam & Lewis and LA & Babyface kept R&B relevant for me in the '80s, even if nobody else did. And I remember when Nelson George wrote for Billboard. He always wrote from a condescending viewpoint that was off-putting. Everytime I see him on something, he's that guy who passes himself off as THE authority on music instead of letting others reach that conclusion on their own.

But, that's what music critics do. They must be good at it, though, because they get people like us riled up.

One critic I do find myself agreeing with is Brian Chin [[I think that's what his name is...I don't feel like checking), who also wrote for Billboard.

Jam & Lewis? all programming, but I loved their sound. During the 80s, they could do no wrong! I'm glad Prince fired them.

**Jerry Oz** · 02-07-2014, 11:09 AM

They are too. Just like the SOS Band, Janet Jackson, Human League, Cherrelle, and Alexander O'Neal are.

**timmyfunk** · 02-07-2014, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

Wait a minute...Tony Thompson had a reputation of playing VERY loud and hard. He actually blew out microphones when he recorded with Chic. They would set them clear across the room and he would still burn them out.

But they were real drums as opposed to drum machines which sound irritating from the start. Once they're turned up, it's even more unbearable. Jerome Brailey of P-Funk also had a loud drum sound, but he was also playing with an electrified rhythm section. That's the difference.

**timmyfunk** · 02-07-2014, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

But, that's what music critics do. They must be good at it, though, because they get people like us riled up.

One critic I do find myself agreeing with is Brian Chin [[I think that's what his name is...I don't feel like checking), who also wrote for Billboard.

Jam & Lewis? all programming, but I loved their sound. During the 80s, they could do no wrong! I'm glad Prince fired them.

I think there is a difference between music critics and music writers. Nelson George is a music writer. Robert Christgau is a music critic.

**soulster** · 02-07-2014, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

But they were real drums as opposed to drum machines which sound irritating from the start. Once they're turned up, it's even more unbearable. Jerome Brailey of P-Funk also had a loud drum sound, but he was also playing with an electrified rhythm section. That's the difference.

So, I guess you don't like Keith Sweat. Can't win 'em all.

**soulster** · 02-07-2014, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

I think there is a difference between music critics and music writers. Nelson George is a music writer. Robert Christgau is a music critic.

I would say that Nelson George is also a critic. The only difference is that Robert Christgau hasn't, to my knowlwdge, written any books or done any documentaries.

**timmyfunk** · 02-08-2014, 06:13 PM

Christgau has written plenty of books, but he also had record review section in the Village Voice and Creem magazine. Nelson George never had that kind of platform in any major music magazine.

**timmyfunk** · 02-08-2014, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by soulster

So, I guess you don't like Keith Sweat. Can't win 'em all.

He's cool. I don't have any of his records though.

**Jerry Oz** · 02-08-2014, 06:32 PM

Keith Sweat's greatest hits were all on his debut album. People forget how incredible Teddy Riley was. Nobody that he produced seemed to do as well with another producer/composer.

**Ngroove** · 02-08-2014, 10:03 PM

They could just have covered a few importants for all I care - James Brown, Sly & the Family Stone, George Clinton - but was pretty disappointed in the absence, even for a name mention, of Rick James, who is apparently THE KING OF FUNK - how could they do a funk documentary, without the King? Nooooo, just go on ahead to Prince and his protégés, but what about Rick James and Teena Marie, Mary Jane Girls, and Process and the Doo Rags?

**Jerry Oz** · 02-08-2014, 11:19 PM

You seriously did not toss Process and the Doo Rags into the conversation... And the Mary Jane Girls would be a stretch in a discussion about notable funk acts.

**soulster** · 02-09-2014, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Oz

Keith Sweat's greatest hits were all on his debut album. People forget how incredible Teddy Riley was. Nobody that he produced seemed to do as well with another producer/composer.

I cannot agree in the least! You probably forgot "Nobody" and "Make You Sweat", two of his best hits.

**soulster** · 02-09-2014, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ngroove

They could just have covered a few importants for all I care - James Brown, Sly & the Family Stone, George Clinton - but was pretty disappointed in the absence, even for a name mention, of Rick James, who is apparently THE KING OF FUNK - how could they do a funk documentary, without the King? Nooooo, just go on ahead to Prince and his protégés, but what about Rick James and Teena Marie, Mary Jane Girls, and Process and the Doo Rags?

Maybe Nelson George just doesn't like Rick James?

It's been a couple of decades since I read his book "The Death Of Rhythm & Blues", but I might remember that he didn't have a lot of things to say about Motown in general.

**splanky** · 02-09-2014, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Ngroove

They could just have covered a few importants for all I care - James Brown, Sly & the Family Stone, George Clinton - but was pretty disappointed in the absence, even for a name mention, of Rick James, who is apparently THE KING OF FUNK - how could they do a funk documentary, without the King? Nooooo, just go on ahead to Prince and his protégés, but what about Rick James and Teena Marie, Mary Jane Girls, and Process and the Doo Rags?

As much as I loved the bulk of Rick James music I can't say I ever remember thinking of him
or even hearing him refer to himself as the "King of Funk". Punk Funk maybe, still I always think there's never been enough consideration of his ballads for me. Lots of folks mention
Fire and Desire, his duet with Teena but I always thought Spacey Love, his paen to Patti Labelle, When Love Is Gone and Jefferson Ball were some of the most beautiful works he's
ever produced...
Anyway, I couldn't see the VH1 thing either, maybe it'll show up on youtube later or dvd.
As far as 80's R&B a number of things from Cameo, Loose Ends, Isley Jasper Isley, Roger and
the upstarts Ready For The World, Lisa Lisa and The Force MDs got me along just fine. Besides, by the end of that decade a sleeping giant known as Jazz had awakened...

**cozmic** · 02-09-2014, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by timmyfunk

Nelson George never had that kind of platform in any major music magazine.

He did though for Billboard magazine?

**soulster** · 02-09-2014, 11:03 AM

Yes, he did!

**Jerry Oz** · 02-09-2014, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by splanky

As much as I loved the bulk of Rick James music I can't say I ever remember thinking of him
or even hearing him refer to himself as the "King of Funk". Punk Funk maybe, still I always think there's never been enough consideration of his ballads for me. Lots of folks mention
Fire and Desire, his duet with Teena but I always thought Spacey Love, his paen to Patti Labelle, When Love Is Gone and Jefferson Ball were some of the most beautiful works he's ever produced...

Don't forget "Ebony Eyes" with Smokey and "Mary Jane" which was a love song any way that you want to listen to it...