Many thanks to Tim Lampley for this very direct and interesting question posed to Mary and for making it available on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmy55v8xQBM
Many thanks to Tim Lampley for this very direct and interesting question posed to Mary and for making it available on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmy55v8xQBM
Excellent interview, excellent questions, and Mary Wilson did a superb job this time of answering them.
This is such a non-issue and ridiculous ponder. Oprah has always said "Diana Ross AND The Supremes" when referring to their influence. If anyone COULD get the ladies together, it would be Oprah and I'm sure there is more that we don't know about that possible conversation.
Also, why on earth would Oprah pick Mary Wilson to be part of her "Legends" ball? There were 25 women honored. If you think that Mary Wilson has the same notoriety as Maya Angelou, Coretta Scott King and Katherine Dunham you're living in a fantasy world. We all love Mary and bless her heart, she kept the group going and has been the keeper of the flame but her impact after 1970 ain't exactly record breaking.
And yes, this is going to turn into yet another Diana Ross/Mary Wilson mud slinging thread because people continue to post things just to get others worked up. I'm not sure this video has anything to do with THE MUSIC of Motown which is why we're all here. It's more catty gossip inciting nonsense that should have been dead and buried with the coffin securely shut forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu
llQuote:
Originally Posted by Methuselah2
mary did answer the questions to the best of her ability.
These are my opinions, and my opinions only:
Oprah has been very candid about her feelings regarding The Supremes. So far as to say that, "She did not really accept Cindy".
In another lifetime, I believe that Oprah would have invited Mary and Cindy as guests, not honorees to the Legends Ball. Just as Streisand, then Sen. & Mrs. Obama and Barbara Walters for instance.
However, Oprah expressed a sentiment about the impact their legacy has made on her life. When Mary chose to write those books, one within her perfect right, she also risked offending a lot of people by betraying a beautiful dream that was The a Supremes. Who knows if she has never invited Mary on her show because of her loyalty to Diana, whom she even affectionately had herself made up to imitate Diana. She also wrote Diana a very personal letter that was very influential in Diana's decision to do "Return to Love". I suspect when Diana chose to open the show with Dr. king's statement, "an idea whose time has come". It was in the spirit of the impact of their legacy.
Its a known fact that Diana has been on Oprah directly or indirectly at least 6 times.
Like Mary candidly stated, The Supremes cultivated different camps. Oprah is clearly in Diana's camp, as I am. I personally surrendered the possibility of a Supremes reunion when the tragic news of Flo's departure happening, ironically as Diana was enjoying another peak with " An Evening with,..." And "Love Hangover".
To most of us identified as part of Diana's camp, it is of little surprise that she never invited Mary on. Like it or not, a lot of fans and professional people saw Mary's decision to write those books as the ultimate insult to a tremendous dream. [[Remember when Jermaine/Arista leaked the original version of " Word to the Badd" dissing Michael, as legitimate as it may have been to Jermaine at the moment, the public did not receive it well. And his excellent LaFace debut is now out of print).
Camps are not unique to a The Supremes. Beatles fans were equally offended by both the arrival of Yoko and Linda Evans.
Mary took a risk and there were consequences. Not being invited on Oprah was one of them and being embarrassed on Phil Donahue was another.
Time has mellowed most of us, me included. Mary responded as clear as she could. The fact that she had used The Supremes name for years, yet accused Diana of using "false Supremes" was another.
I had envision that Mary and Cindy would be in attendance at the Legends Ball. Oprah saw it differently for her own reasons. The Motown musical photo opt was nice, but, I read nothing more than what it was, in it. Whatever is to be from here on, is what it is. I have no expectations of a reunion because I absolutely loved the "Return to Love" show. Even as I purchased tix to Detroit, I still couldn't imagine Diana and Mary sharing a stage. Its time has come and gone. Oprah accepted Lynda and Scherrie and so did I.
I hope both ladies are at peace. But you can forgive, but, you should never forget.
Once again, these are my opinions and my opinions only. I consulted Ralph before writing because it is not my intention to offend anyone. I am and have always been a Diana Ross fan, I take the good with the bad, "and I couldn't change my heart if I wanted to".
Lulu - The only nonsense I see in this thread so far is the angry approach with which you've responded. The thread title, I believe, makes it apparent what the thread is going to be about. If such a topic has no interest for you or seems worthless to you, certainly the sensible thing for you to have done would have been to ignore it. Obviously, that wasn't possible for you to do, and taking multiple issues with the thread itself was too good an opportunity to pass up. There's the nonsense. And all this from you who's concerned about the thread turning into an argument between Diana/Mary factions. That's quite a concern for you to take in all this. All you've done is make projections about things, and in a manner and tone that merely sheds light on your own nature. I didn't find anything else to take away from your posts here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu
When I ran across the video clip, I was surprised by the directness and specificity of Tim Lampley's questions to Mary, questions only about how she felt about some occurrences that had happened in her career. He was eliciting very personal responses about her feelings, and Mary responded with poise and openness, and was just as forthright. I thought it was a fascinating 2 minutes of video that others on the Forum might be interested in seeing, as well. Nothing more.
To me, whatever you think was my motivation for doing so or why you think such a posting has no validity is your criticism, your perspective, your right to express.
But it's also nonsense. And pointedly misses the point.
I was told at one time,right after The Return To Love,Oprah tryed to put together a interview with Mary and Diana,and Diana said no,at that time,Diana was pisssed off at Mary,and Mary was pisssed off with Diana,it was no way Diana was gonna do an interview with Mary,we all like,who we like,i'm 100% TEAM MARY WILSON,i just LOVE The Supremes from the 70s
When "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" was released in the Fall of 1986, Phil Donohue was the king of daytime talk shows. Mary and Jay Schwartz goal were to sell as many books as possible, so Jay had her booked on Phil's show.
The Fall of 1986 was also the time that the Oprah Winfrey Show went into National syndication. Oprah, at the time desperately wanted Mary Wilson on her show, but as far as we knew, no one really knew Oprah Winfrey other than she was some fat chick out of Baltimore with a new talk show. So Oprah lost out to Phil Donohue when it came to Mary Wilson and she has never gotten over it! I think Mary and her team made the right choice for that time. Oprah? Get over it!!!
As someone who knew Oprah when she worked in Baltimore, I wouldn't exactly call her "some fat chick out of Baltimore". We were all pleased to see her grow and knew what the future had in store for her. If she had entertained Mary as a guest, Marv, we all know you'd be massaging her and Gayle's feet in a warm tub of lavender scented epsom salt soak but why should I state the obvious?Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
Anywhoo...
In looking back on the interview some hours later and reading your comments, I've realized that I guess I felt that Tim Lampley, as direct as he was, was egging Mary on or as the old saying goes, pouring salt in the wound. I didn't feel this line of questions was particularly necessary just like I felt Graham Norton was crossing a line when he pushed Diana Ross on questions about Michael Jackson. I'm not sure what Oprah inviting Mary to her show or her "Legends" ball has to do with the price of tea in China. I just think it was a stupid series of questions and irrelevant to Mary and her/The Supremes legacy.
Why was Mary Wilson embarrassed on the Phil Donahue Show?
Mary Wilson was on the Phil Donahue Show,for one whole hour,back in the day,it was one of Mary's best interview's ever,i still have it today,
I supposed you don't recall when Phil asked her why she would write such a book if Diana was her friend. And do you think she has read it? She then mutters "I've gotta go to the toilet. It was my interpretation that she was unprepared for the fact that Phil and Marlo Thomas, his wife was friends with Diana.Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeterob
I suppose if you were on Mary's side during the interview, you would have interpreted it differently. To me, she looked quite uncomfortable. Around that same time, Tony Turner had written his tome, and said the classic line, "marywilson should kiss my feet". Again, I repeat it was my impression that she was Ill-prepared for some level of backlash. I still have a two hour video tape of what I and my friends who were Diana Ross fans thought that she did not come across well. Clearly, if you thought that marywilson was great, you would see it differently.
let alone, in the yearly wrap up of books annually, USA Today deemed her 2nd book: "The worst book of the year, lifeless and whiny".
As I said quite clearly, I was on the side of people who felt that she had betrayed her legacy and appeared to go on "an apology tour" rather than truly standing by what she wrote.
of course, publishers/editors encouraged her to be as dishy as possible. I certainly feel she had every right to tell her side of the story. But when you accuse someone of using "false Supremes" after you spent years bringing different configurations of girls and calling them Supremes, it certainly brings to my mind your integrity. Karen Ragland ended up suing her for rights to the name. And though she would claim to be the bearer of the torch for the name, it certainly didn't seem that you handled it with pride and care.
Whereas Diana wouldn't allow herself to be seduced into writing a book justifying her years with The Supremes, and relegated the entire subject to less than 2 pages....risking the perception that the book "wasn't what some wanted to hear", in my perception Diana handled it quite differently. Mary's press junket against "Return to Love" once again failed to acknowledge the many years she used the name with ladies that never were contractually signed to Motown, nor had ever sung on any of their records. She expected Diana and her to negotiate "Return to Love" together when the tour was not about the group getting back together, therefore, promoters negotiated with each person individually. Diana's name, inarguably had a higher marquee value, therefore, isn't only natural that her involvement was worth more? Never mind the fact that Diana was paid and equal 3rd throughout the majority of her years as a Supreme.
For these reasons, supporters of Diana, which includes Oprah, was not in the least surprise that Oprah never extended Mary an invitation to appear on her show. Even though, it probably would have been a quick ratings shot.
in the famous Diana Ross & The Supremes b-side, "Keep An Eye" [[which ironically Diana chose to record twice....possibly reading too much into that one, but the irony was hard to miss), lyrically that song portrayed a kind of friend that would undermine you, be passive/aggressive and untrustworthy. I don't think I can express my point of view any better than that.
That said, as the year's have gone by and I have mellowed, I ran into Mary at an industry event, NARM, where she was assisting promoting the release of the "Standing in the Shadows of Motown", I had an epiphany and felt that Mary certainly has the right to work. And most of all, I would never wish that any of the former members of The Supremes meet with the same fate that happened to Flo. It breaks my heart to know that Cindy had to resort to selling Supremes memorabilia on eBay to survive.
The legacy of The Supremes means so much to me, as it probably does to most of us. I have been a fan since August 1964. Have been blessed to meet everyone of them, save for Florence...including having Cindy and Scherrie in my own living room [[how surreal was that). I accepted a long time ago that part of my love for The Supremes includes fantasy. And I have little desire to get too close to that fantasy because sometimes you see things that you don't necessarily want to see.
that is my point of view, and I don't think I could say it any better than that. For those who are in Mary's camp, I have no intent on offending. But this seemed like the ideal time to express how I see why Mary was never invited on Oprah nor to participate in her Legends Ball. Peace, over and out. Out of respect for Ralph and the forum, I don't wish to belabor the point nor dissolve into personal attacks.
lol Atcha Bokiluis, you don't think that what you said, would offend some of us?but again, you are like some other fans here,will try to say it,like you're nice,but you're really bein' nasty,most of what you say here is not true,as far as Mary's interview on The Phil Donahue Show,again Mary was on her A game,told it like it was,and told it like it is,[[at that time)you put Mary down on your post,in every way,but 85%what you said was not true,sure you have your opinion,but PLEASE tell the truth,Mary's book stayed on the best seller's list,you said Mary was unprepared for Phil,you said Mary looked uncomfortable,REALLY?LOL,What Phil Donahue Show did you see,because Mary was at her BEST,i don't know if you posted this to get a negative reaction,so someone will put Diana Ross down,Marv and other,don't fall for it,don't put Diana down,let not have another WAR,if you are Team Diana,cool Bokiluis,but you should always tell the truth,oh by the way,Mary's book was the biggest selling book of that kind,you can love Diana,just tell the truth,i just love The Supremes from the 70s lol
Mary was perfect on the Donohue Show. [[I taped it and still have the video.). She was poised, she was beautiful and she looked super hot as usual! LOL! I don't remember anything embarrassing happening other than her lapel mic came loose and a stage person had to fix it off camera. She knocked two great songs out of the park that day. She sang "I Will Survive" and "How Lucky Can You Get. The audience gave her standing ovations for each!
Phil Donohue was a great host and gentleman to Mary. He defended her book to an angery Diana Ross fan that called in by saying "This book is going to help keep this from happening again,.......It's going make sure that the next supremes go negotiating [[their contracts) with a gun"!
Afterwards Phil hosted a luncheon for Mary and posed for about a dozen pictures with her.
When you are the Beyoncé or Diana Ross of a group, there will be some backlash; when you are a really hot property, you are a target; it goes with the territory and they are used to it. In return, the get a lot of money and call a lot of shots.
It would have been tough for any human being to be Mary, Cindy, or Florence and watch your friend become a superstar and walk away for a $20 million advance when you wonder where your Motown money went. I wouldn't begrudge any of them some envy and jealousy.
I don't know Mary's Donahaue interview; the worst one I recall was with some guy from ABC or NBC where she clearly was annoyed and he set her up to say $4 million dollars wasn't enough and looked at her very askance.
Life went on.
I think this interview posted here is good. Mary is far above the screwball fan.
Wow - beautifully written.
I didn't see Phil Donohue as you did. I thought Mary came across exactly as she intended - however, I don't think she was as prepared to deal with the Ross situation as much as was presented.
This is going to be an interesting thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokiluis
Oprah desperately wanted Mary on her show? She told you this? Is this the same Mary Wilson who, for three and a half decades would appear on any TV show with VHF antenna?
So Mary chose to do a local talk show phone in show with an audience of 9 thousand in Portland over the millions who would watch her on Oprah that first season? Interesting.
I don't think Oprah wanted Mary on her show and didn't want to publicize the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
How do you reconcile your fondness for the truth and the content of Mary's books? They contain many verifiable untruths and many other distortion of facts that lead to incorrect conclusions. Let me know if you would like an extemporaneous list of examples.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REDHOT
Regardless what you say here and now, what I wrote is true and I am done with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremester
Then this thread ended on a real positive note. Bless you.Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
Fondly,
Roberta
Toot toot! Beep Beep! Next!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta75
Good job Marv.
You did well on that one.
It appears to me, in light of recent threads, that Mary Wilson's current career, such as it is, exists on this message board and no where else..poor dear thing.. truth or consequences!!! she went for 'consequences', and, oops, slippery slope, poor dear!
That wasnt called for jimilalumia. Not nice and not classy and not fair and not true imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia
Roberta
I do hope Ralph DELETE this whole thread also,Ralph please read the last thing i posted here,and they[[Diana or Mary fans) just didn't get it,don't wanna get it,or just wanna keep up mess,no matter what,yes i'm TEAM Mary Wilson,but i didn't have to put Diana Ross down,to make a point,again i do hope Ralph delete this thread,as well,Thanks Marv,you didn't go there,that's what they was waiting on,that why they were puttin' Mary down,they wanted to have another SUPREME WAR,The End
This reminds me of when Diana, on Love is Like an Itching in my Heart says "These head phones is gone".Quote:
Originally Posted by REDHOT
There is no war and only 1 negative comment - and not exactly a horrendous slam. The thread is still valid, IMHO. There is no "they" .......
I admire Mary for many things. She has maximized her celebrity in a classy way and maintained a strong presence in her milleau. I mean, she's not known outside of old people who dug The Supremes but there are people now who never heard of Diana Ross OR The Supremes. It's of no consequence. Mary has a career that has given her a nice lifestyle and there is not, to my knowledge, a bg singer who has done more. I do not think she is the keeper of the flame or has promoted The Supremes legacy because of her books and television appearances. Many Supremes fans feel this way and I can see no reason why Mary would expect to be on Oprah at all - unless it was Ross related. Mary is correct about those camps - she should be - she created them - as was her right to do so. For her to bat her eyes at the camera and pretend she has no idea why Miss Ross avoids her is absurd and insulting. Jim is right: she chose consequences and these are them. And it's OK. It's no diss. I can't think of anyone - famous or not - who has had the amount of negs tossed at them publicly like Ross has endured from Mary for nearly 30 years that has decided to look the other way.
These are just the choices each has made and I understand both sides. I wonder if Mary does. I wish them all well.
My guess is as Mary ages, the regrets mount.
That's standard - those that feel responsible for bad feelings, a bad incident ~ if they ever cared at all, they want to make amends.
And she did care and she does.
Will she be given an opportunity? I suspect not.
For Bokiluis, he wrote about as even handed a post as he can about Mary Wilson as he holds a deep seated grudge against her. He at least capitalize M and W, which he normally doesn't do, in a childish attempt to get back at her for her books. Don't be fooled by his New Agey-ness. I do like his comment that for him The Supremes were about fantasy. That might be why there are still so many Supremes fans [[whatever faction they may) who are traumatized and embittered by the reality of the group and its fate. They would rather revert to childhood and permanently live in Supremes Fantasy Land.
As for Oprah's Legend's Ball--I thought she was just using the women to promote her brand and burnish her image as a giving, generous person. However genuine generous people don't feel the need to scream about their good works from the rooftops like Oprah is prone to doing over the years. Frankly Mary Wilson or everyone else who was not invited were better off not being roped into such a PR stunt.
Like I've said before... if I can rake in 10 grand a night with a career that exists only on a message board... who do I have to fuck to get on THAT train!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia
That is a pretty brilliant post. Also, different celebs have different influences. Is it any surprise to us that Oprah would idolize the "Shrewd and successful one" in the Supremes? And then you have other celebrities, such as Whoopi Goldberg who idolized and wanted to be Mary. Again, Whoopi being a bit of an ugly duckling, it makes sense that she would want to be "The pretty one". It is what it is. At the heart of Mary's resentment is the fact the three of them had a beautiful dream, it came true... and she feels like Diana just walked away with it, and left her alone. But that being said, her book was not all that bad. It paints Diana as a selfish person, but Mary ALWAYS made it very clear time and time again, that Diana's actions never came from malice. She never did anything just to be MEAN. So we have a performer [[Diana) who is self centered and an attention whore. BIG SURPRISE. Most every performer is thristy as hell for attention, it's just the personality type. Soemtimes, it depends on your individual psyche, and what kind of person you want to be. Would you rather be the one who "Made it", or the one that's "Hot, sexy, and everybody likes". Personally, I'd rather be the latter, but some of you might rather be the former. But it's also lonely at the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by smark21
Smark & Jill share a wry sense of humour and enjoy fairly biting sarcasm. And probably neither ever totally buy into major star BS because they feel no one should be idolized like Oprah, Bieber, Jackson, Ross etc. have been at times. And I kind of buy into that too which is why I don't see myself as a real Ross fanatic. I just stand up to bullies.
So I believe there is some real bullets of accuracy in these posts, particularly about Oprah. Most everyone got tired of use of her money, use of her power, her effusiveness, her " I'm so in love with so many things ~ and doesn't Oprah love Tina, Diana, Beyoncé, Barbra and everyone else that sometimes held some of an Oprah style power?
Also, Jill's line about, "At the heart of Mary's resentment is the fact the three of them had a beautiful dream, it came true... and she feels like Diana just walked away with it, and left her alone. But that being said, her book was not all that bad." I completely agree with that. You would have to be inhuman to be a Mary or Cindy and not feel envious and jealous. What has made that much worse is that for most of Diana's post 1970 career, she is aloof, makes no comment about anything Supreme, doesn't appear and is either like a brick wall or a sponge about it ~ which makes the envious even envier.
I personally feel that Mary is not so much envious, but instead, RESENTFUL. And if she was envious it would only be on a certain level, because you all KNOW Mary is certainly not envious of Diana's looks, it's the other way around. She's not envious of Diana's personality, maybe her ability to get stuff done, but not the fact that people consider her a "Bitch" or a "Pill". So I'd say by and large, I see Mary's feelings as those of resentful abandonment.Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeterob
Okay, I have been lurking on this forum for a long time, was a member of the original Motown Forum [[remember?), after closing that down, became a member here. Learned a lot and shared some information as well.
Yes, the constant bickering is tiresome and I promised my self not to get involved. In some other threads years ago I tried to explain that we weren't there, as outsiders we can never understand the relationship these women have and the things we see or hear [[as in the above interview) is always based on our own perception and we project our own feelings towards it, thus drawing conclusions.
There is no need for different camps. Both women gave us joy and years of entertainment and continue to do so. Let's be thankful for that and respect them for that. The passing of Gil Askey is a reminder that life is too short for bickering.
Mary has described in her books that they have different personalities. Different personalities bring different lives. Both women described struggles and lessons learned in their books.
Mary is happy with her life and she can be very proud of what she has achieved. Diana is happy with her life and she too can be very proud of what she has achieved.
Let's hope they both [[and all other performing Motown artists) will continue to bring us many more years of entertainment and pleasure.
But I'm also realistic enough to realize the discussion will probably never end. If we agree we respect every person who takes the time and makes the effort to explain their opinion that is a start for a better world.
And remember, this is Ralph and Lowell's "house", they make the rules and we are the guests. Let's behave as good visitors.
'I see Mary's feelings as those of resentful abandonment'
But at 70 years old Mary really needs to get over it. Diane left the Supremes 44 years ago and Diane needs to get over any issues shes got with mary and all the fans and I mean both dianes and Marys fans need to stop ll the petty fighting nasty remarks. These are old women now in the twlighlight of they time on earth so lets have peace for the last 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years Diane and Mary have left on this here earth. Enough already with all the fighting and Diane said this and Mary wrote that nonsense. Whatever is true or not true or rumor or made up tales its all old history now imo.
Roberta
Roberta
Amen 1388hitsville. Amen and thank you for your very accurate posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1382hitsville
Fondly,
Roberta
I agree as well. I'm fairly new here and popped on because I had grown weary of what I'd seen elsewhere. I've "taken the bait" a few times myself and have just accepted the fact that this is indeed an endless debate. That being said, I've decided to stick to the music going forward. Snarky digs made just to prove a point aren't doing me any favors. I apologize if I've offended anyone and hope we can have productive discussions going forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta75
Lulu G
no more snark, eh?.......'resentful abandonment', while implying that Mary is more beautiful and a better person than Ross?... Shirley [[can I call you Shirley?), you jest..In regard to mary wilson's ill will toward Diana Ross, to quote Bette Midler's character in "Bitc..", oops, "Beaches"....."you're so jealous you can barely breathe!"..especially in light of MOTOWN: THE MUSICAL and this year's amazing Ross Tour... abandonment happens to a spouse or a child, not to some broad that you sang in a group with for a few years..can you image Flo's resentful abandonment when wilson turned HER back?
Jimi I totally agree. I am so tired of hearing people say Mary is more beautiful than Diana. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because I see Diana being more beautiful. I do agree Mary is a very beautiful woman too. This is only my opinion Mary was probably more prettier in the 60s but in the 80s and 90s nobody could touch Diana's beauty. And they have both aged very well for going on 70.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia
Interestingly, 2 weeks ago, someone using the name "miss birdsong" posted on this you tube interview, as follows:
miss birdsong
2 weeks ago
I agree that Mary's work and presence has helped to ensure the legacy of the Supremes YET that legacy is somewhat tarnished through her self serving book and interviews over the years. Presently, she is a sweeter, honest, version of Mary as it relates to the sisterhood of the Supremes.