Has anyone ever seen Mary’s speech? Or the black dress?
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Has anyone ever seen Mary’s speech? Or the black dress?
Yes, she wore the black dress that she wore on The Black Stage when she performed "You Danced My Heart Around The Stars." Cindy wore a simple black dress too. I always thought the white dress she wore in the finale, which she borrowed from Freda Payne, made her look big. The black dress she wore in the speech moment was more form fitting.
As for the speech, she and Cindy stuck to the script. For a brief moment, I want to say for no more than a minute, Mary broke away to mention the Motown family who had died citing Florence, Paul Williams, and Pops Gordy and wanted to make sure they were remembered. It was brief, but very heartfelt. She didn't go on a tangent like some have made it out to be. If the producers got that upset over her straying off script to honor some of the Motown folks who had died but okay with Diana walking out onstage in the middle of someone else's performance then they are hypocrites. Nearly every awards show people stray from script. It should be mentioned there was no moment in the show that honored the Motown folks who had died so honestly I can't blame Mary for wanting to right their wrong.
Has anyone ever confirmed where this supposed dress code came from? I've heard it mentioned several times, but no one has ever said who came up with it. Was this something one of the producers said? Or was it something a fan created to sew more contention about the night?
Yes and how especially right for Mary to be the one to remember Florence. [and least of all, Diana [or Berry] who couldn't have cared less who'd been a Supreme or not].
Of all the stories about Motown is this , this phony baloney reunion the most absurd one ....the entire hurried reunion ....but especially the handling of the Supremes part of it ....and then using it as the teaser as the special's highlight.
Diana's bright red tongue was the actual highlight. Could watch that over and over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JQagDAJf7s
from-the-heart, warm and fuzzies.... scripted
it certainly couldn't have been for the entire cast for the finale since others were in various outfits. i think most just stayed in the outfits they performed in. so the Jacksons were in all their various colors. wasn't martha in gold?
maybe it was just for the sup segment. most of the male groups that performed were in tuxes, so they matched. of course Debarge and High Inergy weren't in matching outfits since that wasn't their style. so perhaps the idea was to give some degree of a complimentary look to the sups.
I've always chalked this up as another Motown Myth. Diana didn't even want to participate, now you're going to tell her what to wear? I could MAYBE see a discussion about filming; what colors look best under the lights? But you literally have a rainbow of ever color under the sun represented on the show. So, no.
I can also see maybe a phone call between Mary and Diana; "hey girl, what are you wearing? Let's coordinate!" But we know that DIDN'T happen. Diana, Mary, and Cindy weren't always even in matching gowns in 1969.
Then you've got Cindy, who had to borrow a dress from Claudette. What if Claudette only had blue or purple? How was that going to work into the white, black, silver theme?
I think Diana, Mary, and Cindy all looked fantastic that night, regardless of the color of their dresses. And don't believe Mary went off-script with her red hot number.
Aha, Mary's famous RED HOT number!!
Do you really think they look fantastic? They look at odds with each other to me.
That Cindy's dress was borrowed at least explains why it has an untailored look in the way it fits. What's the story here? It doesn't occur to Cindy that she'll need a dress to wear??
The three look like they were pulled out of the audience that night to perform arbitrarily together. Far from conveying the Supremes.
added:
just noticing how timidly Diana introduces them and in unison [as Mary and Cindy] ...BUT Mary holds back and makes an entrance on her own.
How much nicer had Diana said, "Ladies and Gentlemen Miss Cindy Birdsong [full name] " and then Cindy enters to her applause
and then Diana says something to the effect, "and, of course, a Supreme from day one, Miss Mary Wilson." ... who enters to her applause
Very interesting. I think the competition element wasn't a bad idea, as competition breeds excellence. I'm betting the way Berry pitted some folks against each other, the way he played favorites, etc, certainly was the driving force of any resentment and bitterness.
Yeah, I'm not buying the dress code either. It just doesn't make sense. There was no time for a rehearsal, but there was time to coordinate colors?
Where did the information that Cindy's dress was borrowed come from? Seems really strange that she would not have had time to find a beautiful gown- regardless of price- in time for the event. It's not like Motown 25 was a last minute, thrown together thing.
Didn't Cindy say in her interview with Goldmine that Diana helped her out with the dress? Or am I not remembering that right?
This was a time in Cindy's life where she was financially strained so buying a new dress probably wasn't in her expenses. And for a event of this magnitude she probably didn't have something that was good enough for the moment thus why she borrowed the dress from Freda.
The failed Supremes reunion will always be a huge shadow over what should have otherwise been a truly historic night. But honestly, I don't think it was the worst tragedy of the show, just one of many.
1)Eddie and David weren't invited is a huge stain. Not only were they integral members of the Tempts, one of the label's biggest acts, their lead vocals were on some of the label's most iconic hits.
2)The Marvelettes not being invited to perform was idiotic. They were responsible for giving Motown their first number one hit. How do you not honor that?
3)The Vandellas not being invited is also weird. I get that Martha was the indisputable focal point of that trio, but the entire time Martha was at Motown, she was part of the ensemble known as Martha [[and later Reeves) and the Vandellas. Annette, Roz and Betty should have been on that stage helping Martha sing the hits.
4)Martha, Mary and Junior Walker being reduced to a snippet of a song is insane. Single for single, only the Supremes and, arguably, the Shirelles had more hit singles of any female group in the 60s. Mary Wells was the priority act for the label for those first few years, and she made good on her potential. How do they not get a medley of songs each? While I dig Junior, I would be okay with him only doing one song, but it should have been the entire song, not a snippet.
5)The Funk Brothers basically ignored was disrespectful, perhaps most of all. Why is James Jamerson, integral to the adored Motown Sound, having to buy a ticket to the show? Why weren't the Funks reunited? Disrespectful as hell.
So for all the gripes we may have about our beloved Supremes reuniting and screwing it up, there were some bigger travesties that evening, which Motown never seemed to attempt to rectify with most subsequent celebrations.
and wasn't Rick James Motown's hottest property at the time?
were they embarrassed by any association??
Good question! I'm trying to remember if it was mentioned in Call Her Miss Ross, which I unfortunately no longer have. Speaking for myself though, perhaps it was an impression that I ran with from comments/recollections made online over the years and a general sense at how Mary stood out [[albeit fabulously!) in her red dress for that segment.
I looked for Randy and Mary's books to see if there was any mention of coordinating wardrobes for the show and there was absolutely nothing mentioned. I guess it did come from a fan somewhere. I apologize if I continued any misinformation. Mary mentions the black dress and it is the one from her Black Stage performance. She mentions both were designed by Tony Chase. I had read that Freda lent Cindy the dress for the night, I believe on Facebook. Mary stated it was a white silk dress. I remember Mary lent an outfit to Florence's daughter at the R&R Hall of Fame induction when her luggage didn't show up. Another example of kindness like Freda to Cindy. At Motown 25, Mary's outfit did stand out-red against white, black & silver. It was not a floor length gown but a dazzling outfit. Cindy's was more floor length and had a simple elegance. Diana had a sparkly silver top attached to a black short skirt, which didn't seem like what she was wearing performing at that time but her and Michael Jackson seemed to match in theme.
from what i've heard it was more of a financial issue. Cindy was not very well off and didn't have the resources for a high-end glamorous gown. I doubt very much in her personal life she had a reason for wearing sequins out and about. and she couldn't go onstage in her sunday dress and hat.
my guess is the producers were looking at what would be of interest to the broader group of viewers. they wanted big ratings which would hopefully lead to big record sales. and not just of their past catalog but current too. they were desperate to show that motown was still an extremely current and viable label. so quickly rotating through a few Greatest Hits of artists that were potentially less well known was i guess their thought with the Mary Wells/Martha/Jr Walker segment. and given the never-ending angst among the various Temps groupings, the Otis group at least had 5 tall black men which the average person would easily assume was The Temptations. plus they were the group touring and promoting themselves as such. I don't know that the public would recognize the idea of "a temps reunion of all members" as momentous as the reunion of Diana Ross with the Supremes. so since they had the otis group, i guess they figured good enough.
from a big fan perspective though it was a pretty terrible approach to things. to not have the Ms was terrible. and the opening dance number/song of Dancing in the streets was 200X longer than the snippet they gave Martha to sing Heatwave.
Apologies from me also. Funny how these things get repeated enough times, they just become part of the legend, as it were!
Regarding the supposed dress code, here's a quote from an interview Suzanne de Passe gave to EBONY magazine for the DVD release:
https://www.ebony.com/suzanne-de-pas...motown-25-250/Quote:
EBONY: There are a lot of stories about the night of the taping, one being that Diana Ross and Mary Wilson were fighting with each other. I’ve read that Wilson wearing a red dress, instead of black and white, made Ross upset. Is that true?
SP: No, not at all. The dress code wasn’t something we were worried about. We just wanted to get the three of them on stage at the same time. If Mary Wilson had shown up in a potato sack, I would’ve been fine with it. [laughter] I thought they both looked stunning.
I do think they look fantastic. That was really the first time I'd seen Cindy after the Supremes. She looked great, even if her gown was boxy.
Diana always looks great. Did she have a run in her nylon hose though? I thought I once read that. I don't see one.
Mary is STUNNING. That strut, paired with the glitter in her hair and the fantastic red dress is perfection.
And Mary's dress DID coordinate with Diana's tongue. So there is that.
She would've been OK with MARY showing up in a potatoe sack :eek: ... first of all, she shouldn't have been, and secondly I bet those thoughts weren't the same for Diana. And for heavens sakes coordinating costumes [and at a minimum making sure poor Cindy and everyone else has something suitable to wear] is kind of a standard practice.
Suzanne shouldn't have been navigating BILLIE HOLIDAY and as can be seen, she shouldn't have been navigating .....
[she's making a joke because to pull this off was so difficult and unlikely that even wearing potato sacks would've been ok ...whatever it takes .....but Mary never would have done that and there's nothing funny about Cindy being in such a situation that she had to borrow clothes]
mary really is stunning as she walks, no STRUTS out on the stage. and i know i've bitched about her changing things up. i do agree with the decision for each woman to enter by herself. even if that "wasn't planned"
the gown, the glitter in her wig, the slit up the dress, the 10,000,000 watt smile and when she picks up her mic and does the alto line on the chorus - perfection
I've read that Scherrie was in the audience for Motown 25. Were there any other Supremes? I can't imagine Jean was there, but perhaps Lynda or Sus?
what's the point of the strutting? she then walks up to Diana without a clue of how to interact. Mary stands in front of Diana. Not choreographed at all as Diana tries to group them with her arms and Cindy accepts while Mary ignores.
"
I think the "Mary and Cindy" is dubbed in later when Diana has her back to the audience making it appear as a very odd intro with Diana not facing the audience. The real introduction was probably something more substantial but got vetoed and was cut out.
yes definitely touched up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JQagDAJf7s
Diana can be heard still finishing her " together" when "Mary & Cindy" gets laid on top of it. then a chunk is edited out ... you can hear audience applause jump
my interpretation of her strut is that she was super proud to be a supreme. i've certainly aired my opinions on mary's behavior that evening and i think there are multiple instances where she did NOT act supremely. but i wouldn't categorize this as one. i don't think she was trying to over do the attitude or anything.
similar to how i think she made the decision herself to NOT walk out at the exact same time as Cindy. again that might not have been the exact instruction from the producers during the brief rehearsal but i don't see that as being highly egregious or diva-ish in behavior.
and as you mention, the choreography was VERY informal. when M and C were finally both by Diana's side, she warmly puts her arms around them and they're all right there. beautiful
as for the "Mary? and Cindy?" my guess is the whole 90 seconds or so that we actually got was so cobbled together, so who knows. I don't necessarily think it was recorded later. seriously doubt diana would bother coming back to a studio to re-record parts. maybe there was actually another chorus that Diana sang by herself that was cut. again, i think the final 90 seconds was such a masterclass in creative editing lol
hehehe should we really take this thread sideways and get into the RTL discussion again? :p with Scherrie's comments about how Mary's manager later regretted their approach/decision?
i do remember chats years ago about the idea of the other ladies participating in the tour. Scherrie and Lynda had the benefit, along with Mary, of being very active with touring. so the producers could have easily found very recent clips of them performing and confirmed that their pipes were all in excellent condition. but Jean and Cindy were not at all active so i don't think it's completely inappropriate that the producers might say "hmmm are they up to a big high-profile tour?"
I thought that in some discussion that someone mentioned the producers wanting the other women to sort of "audition" or something. i'm really, really trying to dust off old memories and i don't want to misquote anyone. i sort of thought Susaye was mentioning some of this on one of those old Midnight Johnnie radio shows. i don't know if she implied it or others but some of the women were like "audition?!?!? of all the nerve!!" again, i'm not trying to put words in susaye's or anyone's mouth.
I added this:
something gets cut out here.Quote:
then a chunk is edited out ... you can hear audience applause jump
and why would Diana stop singing "Together" mid-word?? so yes maybe there was another chorus or two [or more] in there that got removed ....as Diana just got worse and worse lol!
But who introduces people to the stage with their back to the audience they are being introduced to? ...don't make no sense!
You're using the word strut which works ...I'm going to say "charged" out on stage ....lazer focused on the evil Diana and totally ignoring the cheering audience no greeting or smile or nod. Her gate seems a bit fast too, if it weren't for those dam shoes she'd have jogged over there, lol!
Cindy: now Cindy strolls [not struts or charges] ...sways to the music, smiles, changes the mic into her other hand while waving with the crowd ...
She has it paced right.
hee haw Diana almost has to guide Mary to turn to the crowd ''uh hello, the audience is out there"
Scherrie makes it all sound so simple. Even Mary’s manager made it sound so simple.
At times, I think it’s the fans that complicate it and caused more of the problems - especially the ones that were really crazy and are gone from here.
It also reminds me that I got told 20 years ago that the Supremes as we know and loved them ended in 1967 for them.
What stood out to me about Scherrie's interview was her recollection of Diana basically saying all Mary had to do was show up. Diana would never have accepted a "just show up" position, why should Mary? And then Mary thinking Diana was making more money than she actually was, so what? Diana was putting money into the show and if she stood to make more from the profits, good for her. What would Mary have done if Diana said put up some money for the expenses of the show? Mary would have thought Diana was crazy. The whole episode was just so silly, again, evidence of their lack of effectively communicating. And we the fans lost out.
Did anyone hear Scherrie say Latoya Jackson was going to take Mary’s place in the Supremes?
So, according to Scherrie, Mary's manager was negotiating and when they accepted they were told the train left the station. So, Mary did accept. Maybe after the timeline the producers wanted but they were at fault, as well. Shouldn't they have said your deadline to accept is such and such time. They deserve blame. Mary wanted to be compensated and part of the planning. Diana just wanted her to show up. Just like Motown 25, lack of communication while producers pulled the strings.
When I read the comments on here, while I don’t think Mary had totally lost Diana forever by 1983 like Randy wrote, I do think the didn’t care for each other much or trust each other much by then - they just tolerated each other.
So everyone lost out in the end. To keep things from getting away on everyone, someone has to care and try and it just never happened.