Music Makes Us Who We Are...

A beautifully written article by a very wise young lady….


Antara Afrin
16-year-old high school student

Music Makes Us Who We Are
Posted: 01/28/2012 12:10 am

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Music -- can words really describe that feeling we get when we listen to it? Not really, but what exactly makes "good music?" Is it the type or the singer or something other element? Whatever it is, we all know it has a great effect on us. However, is a certain type of music better than another? That is exactly where the debate comes in. Some claim country music is better than R&B, while others claim the exact opposite. However, there is one type of music that is criticized a bit too much, especially by people who do not take the time to listen to it. That type is rap music.

Many folks in our society often connect rap music with violence and other criminal acts. However, it is like every other type of music -- it can be used to express different feelings and moods. Despite saying this, people will still associate rap music with crime when the truth is that most rap music portrays the rapper's life.

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Read More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/antara...b_1237622.html

People don't always dislike a particular type of music because of what it's associated with, but because that they feel they can't relate to it.

Music is subjective and I’m sure not even Antara Afrin would dispute that. Her essay is a defense of rap music and her notion that it’s often unfairly criticized. She makes a valid point and I agree that,

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Everyone should be allowed to seek their story through their music, be it rap or country -- it is still a way of expressing ourselves.

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That last sentence is the point of the essay, no more, no less and I think her defense of a genre of music she happens to enjoy was expressed quite eloquently.

The young lady makes a good point,i think the two truest forms of expression are paintings and music.

Amen Jai, amen!

The kid writes well and I understand her perspective. That said here's where I disagree with her:
I think rap deserves most of the critism leveled against it in it's current state. I HAVE listened to it since
it's birth and though I still have quite a bit of it, I won't be getting anymore. I think it has turned into
my least favorite genre of all musics of the entire planet. I think it is fair to associate it with violence and
crime since so much of it glorifies the two and promotes ignorance, racial stereotyping and sexist behavior. I don't think most rappers are just talking about their lives, I think most are trying to potray an
image of being hard and of the ones I think do indeed , if that's your life, I want no part of it. These fools
will tell you to "represent" you should go out and stick up people, shoot up block parties, sell drugs and guns in the hood while as soon as they get paid they move into high priced hotels and gated communities. I think the young lady is in denial like many of the real connections between the current state of hip hop and many of it's followers. It's moved a long way from Sequence, The Fat Boys or The
Sugarhill Gang...Just my two cents...

Splanky, I'm not a fan of rap music [[with a few exceptions) but I have a difficult time disagreeing with the young lady's point of view.

All day everyday I hear people talk about freedom of speech and I'll be the first to admit there are things I hear I don't like or words and phrases that I am offended by but people really should be able to express themselves, whether I like it, dislike it, agree disagree or even if I am offended by it since I also have the right to express how I feel about what they have to say.

The industry and it's greed turned the genre into what it has become today but there are still exceptions and I think it's unfair to lump all forms of rap into some negative perception. Comes off too much like Fox and their criticism of Common [[oh no a rapper) performing at the WH.

We seem to be turning into a culture where we go out of our way to look for the bad and not the good.....the young lady pointed out examples of what she felt was good and although I'm not familiar with the works of the artists she names, based on what she wrote, I understand why she would feel drawn to their sentiment......same reason I was and still am drawn to the words of the Last Poets [[and not everything they did was radio friendly)

Be it music or anything else sometimes people deliberately try to be provocative to stir up controversy and divisiveness...in the society we are turning into these things sale and capture attention. Since quite a few people buy into it, we can't blame it all on music the artist or even the industry. We have to take our share of responsibility as well.

Things change and that includes music and the times we live in. It seems to me a lot of the music of today represents those times....the good, bad, ugly and sometimes violent times.

If we want young artist to express themselves differently...maybe it's time to look within and change our ways so they will have better examples to pull from.

I don't remember the name of the song but a few years ago Ice Cube did a rather profanity ridden song that actually made me take notice....he showed footage of all the things my generation [[baby boomers) had done and many of those things were crass, profane and as violent as they come....the bottom line to his song....."I learned it from you guys." [[again, there are exceptions and not all baby boomers are A-holes:))

I don't like rap for many reasons, one is that the majority of it indeed does demean women, promote violence and hatred. I'm not sure how any woman on this planet could support let alone promote rap. Yes, some of it might be OK, but the majority of it is very mysogynistic, extremely so.

My second biggest beef is it doesn't take talent. A kindergartner's crayon drawing is good for her parent's refridgerator; I don't want to see it in an art museum.

Anyone can talk. Good singing takes practice and work. Anyone can scratch a record. Good instrument playing takes a lot of practice. That's not saying some of the singers today are good, many are not. I'm talking about good and great singers and musicians. There's not one rapper I would consider talented. Why? Because they don't sing. They talk or yell. Any Joe off the street could be handed a sheet of the lyrics and told to rap or yell and most could pull it off. Hand them a sheet of music and tell them to sing it? That's a different story. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule and that's just what they are: exceptions.

I know the guy at my local YMCA isn't as good a baller as Derrick Rose. He may think he is, I know he's not. That's part of being human and having a brain [[hopefully) and that's the ability to tell the difference between sh-t and shinola. With rap vs. real music, I think it's an easy choice.

I posted this article to illustrate what I felt was a positive response to a genre many of us have often criticize. [[and yes much of that criticism is warranted)

I was trying to bring to the table an understanding of a different point of view, understanding doesn't automatically mean validation......I simply wanted folks to look at something through a different lens.

....sorry but I'm really burned out by negativity and it's not my desire to control the thoughts of others, so take the conversation where ever you want to take it. I'm out, have a great evening everyone.:)

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Originally Posted by splanky

I don't think most rappers are just talking about their lives, I think most are trying to potray an
image of being hard and of the ones I think do indeed , if that's your life, I want no part of it. These fools
will tell you to "represent" you should go out and stick up people, shoot up block parties, sell drugs and guns in the hood while as soon as they get paid they move into high priced hotels and gated communities. I think the young lady is in denial like many of the real connections between the current state of hip hop and many of it's followers. It's moved a long way from Sequence, The Fat Boys or The
Sugarhill Gang...Just my two cents...

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I don't think the gangsta rappers are telling anyone to do anything. There is something called "free will", meaning that we have the will to do whatever we wish. It is a choice to follow the path of what some of these rappers are portraying in their music. Don't forget that these record companies encourage rappers to be violent in their music. Not all rappers come from the crime element.

I started listening to rap in 1979 when "Rapper's Delight" became a mainstream hit, but I haven't listened to much rap since the mid-90s after Ice Cube peaked in popularity. Since then, it's just been Outkast, one-hit wonders, some crunk, here and there, and whatever shows up in the current pop music scene today. The gangsta stuff isn't half as bad as it was in the late 80s and early 90s. Anyone who tells you that really doesn't listen to what's been coming out these days. Except for Eminem, it's pretty much back to the party rap, which is more sexual in nature that it was back in the early days.

I think the rap audience is intelligent enough to realize that when Eminem, for example, raps about he and his woman's constant domestic abuse, it does reflect the dysfunctional lives of a lot of people out there that relate to it. If he raps about getting molested by his father as a child, you can figure that's probably fantasy, but it's probably something a lot of people can relate to. So, he's not telling people to go out and beat up your wife. It's just taking a sensitive subject matter and taking it to an outrageous level. That's what artists do. It's not like Curtis Mayfield singing about Freddie being dead, it's in the first person, which leads people like you to believe that he's really talking about himself and promoting what he raps about. A good artist is able to turn a small reality into something grandiose, over the top, and still make it believable and entertaining. Of course, something being entertaining is always subjective. A singer or rapper doesn't have to identify with anything they perform, but if they've convinced the audience that it's real, they've done their job, and quite well! Give these rappers credit for doing that!

As for rap demeaning women, there are female rappers out there that do the same to men. And, most of the audience knows it's just for show. Do you really believe Luther Campbell goes home and treats his wife and daughter like how he talks about women on 2 Live Crew records? Of course he doesn't! Do you think Jimmie Walker ever walked around calling himself "Kid...DYNOMITE!!!!"? Do you think Carroll O'Connor really though like his character Archie Bunker did? No way! It's all an act, man!

soulster said:

Do you really believe Luther Campbell goes home and treats his wife and daughter like how he talks about women on 2 Live Crew records? Of course he doesn't! Do you think Jimmie Walker ever walked around calling himself "Kid...DYNOMITE!!!!"? Do you think Carroll O'Connor really though like his character Archie Bunker did? No way! It's all an act, man!

No, I never believed any of that, my friend. I understood as most did that they were portraying characters just as Ella Fitzgerald did when she sang about hitting a man in the head with a skillet or Neil Young shooting his lady down by the
river. The problem is I'm not sure most of the rap audience is as intelligent as you seem to think. Notice, I said most.
And I am someone who once was a big fan of a number of hip hop acts. Too Live Crew, Public Enemy, Ultramagnetic MCs,
De La Soul, The Jungle Brothers, A Tribe Called Quest, MC Lyte, Ice T, even the often violent lyrics of the Geto Boyz...
But I knew what was show business and what was not and I've known in real life people who've based their thinking and
behavior on song lyrics. Whether it was as an appraisal of people or an adopted philosopy. I am not one who would agree
as tsull said that no rapper can be talented. I read a lot of poetry when I was young and I understand "flow" which even
some of the most ignorant rappers like Method Man from the Wu Tang Clan possess in abundance. If it's true that music makes us what we are then is what's so volatile because for the undisciplined mind it can negatively influence us. That's
not restricted to hip hop either. George Clinton once said that taking too seriously to heart the lyrics of love songs such
as "I can't live without you" "I'd die if you ever leave me" can be a problem for some unstable people.
Hip Hop is the elephant in the kitchen of American [[and now global) culture that nobody has the nerve to tell
Hey you! Get your ass off the toaster!...

Splanky, maybe you were just exposed to the more ig'nant fans, because all the rap fans I ever talked to, save one, looked at it all as comedy. They looked forward to the next albums just to hear what these guys would say next. The stuff on most of these rap albums were too over the top to be taken so seriously.

You mentioned Public Enemy, though, and they were not gangsta rappers. they were political rappers. They had a different purpose. But, I would say that their condemnation of everything White was often misplaced or based on wrongful information.

Back to gangsta rap: Ice Cube's "Givin' Up The Nappy Dugout" or "Look Who's Burnin" were just humorous parodies of truths that people don't ,like to talk about, or are a problem. NWA's "Fuck Tha Police" was a warning about the rage that is a result from constant mis-treatment from the police.

Ah, soulster...you're trying to put words in my mouth again...when did I ever say Public Enemy was a gangta rap group?
Huh?...Please, I know exactly who they were! I have all of their earlier material in some format or another right up to
Flavor Flav's getting hooked on crack cocaine in real life and addressing it in a song...

"Boya, Boya, Boya, Boya! The Monkey ain't no joke!" he rap sang...

And PE didn't attack everything white just white racism and white exploitation of black people historically in this country.
Chuck D like many people believe the myth about Elvis Presley and admitted he was wrong when he said Elvis "was a
straight out racist simple and plain ". PE also recorded and filmed a video with white rock band Anthrax and their
largest fan base was white college kids despite their pro-black stance.
Oh, and BTW, didn't you say you live in a mostly white suburb? You have no idea what life is like in a major city ghetto,
do you?...

[QUOTE=splanky;89469]

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Ah, soulster...you're trying to put words in my mouth again...when did I ever say Public Enemy was a gangta rap group?
Huh?..

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It appeared that you were lumping them into the same category as the gangsta rappers.

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Oh, and BTW, didn't you say you live in a mostly white suburb? You have no idea what life is like in a major city ghetto,
do you?..

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I haven't been to a major city ghetto in decades. I am Black, though.

Even if it's just an act, saying all women are 'ho's and b-tches and should be hit doesn't mean it's a good act, just like violent, mysogynistic movies aren't healthy, even if they're acts.

It's possible to talk about the social ills of the day while making great music. "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" is a pretty powerful song with great music and vocals. Much of Curtis Mayfield's music has a great message about the ills of society without having to demean women or a certain segment of society. And yes, I believe "Freddy's Dead" is more powerful than anything a rapper has written, as well as much of The Temptations' psychedelic soul music. The problem is for today's society is that music wasn't dumbed down and why it wouldn't fly today. " Papa Was a Rolling Stone" came on the radio last night while I was driving. I had to be an active listener. I got involved in the long intro, the trumpets, the orchestration ... heck, the MUSIC without the lyrics was already painting a picture of an impoverished family and society before any lyric was sung. That's called genius ... it's also called hard work, something rap isn't.

Then the lyrics came on, and again, I had to be an active listener. Sure, I may be a music snob, so be it. Screw rap and lazy society, lazy lyrics, lazy music and production, and aiming for the lowest common denomenator in society. I want to shoot higher and hope for better music, better writers, better production.

The reason that teen likes rap is because she's been weened on it. She doesn't know better. Then if she's handed popular R & B that doesn't grab her much either because that's not that great either.

Why is Michael Jordan [[not my favorite player, but I'll admit his greatness) still considered the best player of all time by most even though he's been retired for awhile? Because he was, that's why. Just because something new and flashy comes along doesn't mean it's better, it just means it's new and flashy. There are a number of great NBA players today, it's awesome. For some reason Jordan is still held as the gold standard. Why? Because he was. There's not a person on this earth that can tell me rap is better than real soul or even in it's league, not a teenage, not a music producer, nobody. Why? Because it's not.

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Originally Posted by tsull1

Even if it's just an act, saying all women are 'ho's and b-tches and should be hit doesn't mean it's a good act, just like violent, mysogynistic movies aren't healthy, even if they're acts.

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While I am not defending this stuff, I will say that these rappers are not calling all women "bitches" and "ho"s.

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It's possible to talk about the social ills of the day while making great music. "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" is a pretty powerful song with great music and vocals.

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Sure it is, but those songs just don't make much of an impact in a society that is used to a brasher style, meaner, and harder to reach. "papa Was A Rolling Stone"? yeah, that's nice, I like it too, but rapping about how how your drugged-up, abusive father beat your mother into her grave, molested your sister, and shoved a loaded gun in your mouth every morning, kind of tells it like it is for many angry youth, especially authorities, who are supposed to protect kids, don't do anything but blame you for being disrespectful. Stories about how some meth whore will give it up for anybody for another hit...in detail, gets noticed more than Donna Summer's "Bad Girls".

I really think a lot of this is about generation.

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Much of Curtis Mayfield's music has a great message about the ills of society without having to demean women or a certain segment of society. And yes, I believe "Freddy's Dead" is more powerful than anything a rapper has written, as well as much of The Temptations' psychedelic soul music.

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Yeah, it was powerful for the older generation, but it doesn't do diddly-squat for the youth of today.

I am a baby-boomer, but I keep my ears and eyes open. I interact with today's youth and know what their reality is, so I know they won't listen to polite and safe messages. They need to be hit over the head. Remember that most of our WWII generation parents weren't crack addicts or bi-polar hot messes like the parents that raised our youth.

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The problem is for today's society is that music wasn't dumbed down and why it wouldn't fly today.

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Yeah it was dumbed down. It was as safe as milk and cookies.

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" Papa Was a Rolling Stone" came on the radio last night while I was driving. I had to be an active listener. I got involved in the long intro, the trumpets, the orchestration ... heck, the MUSIC without the lyrics was already painting a picture of an impoverished family and society before any lyric was sung. That's called genius ... it's also called hard work, something rap isn't.

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If you think rap is so easy, YOU write and perform a rap tune...nd it better be good! :)

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Then the lyrics came on, and again, I had to be an active listener. Sure, I may be a music snob, so be it.

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And snobs are so blinded by their biases that they can't have an open mind.

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Screw rap and lazy society, lazy lyrics, lazy music and production, and aiming for the lowest common denomenator in society.

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Again, if you think rap is so easy, YOU do it! And do it well!

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I want to shoot higher and hope for better music, better writers, better production.

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I repeat: can you do it better?

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The reason that teen likes rap is because she's been weened on it. She doesn't know better.

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The reason you like old music is because you've been weaned on it. At some point you closed your mind.

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Then if she's handed popular R & B that doesn't grab her much either because that's not that great either.

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So, are you the gatekeeper of what "good" music is and what isn't? I'd like to know who appointed you.

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Why is Michael Jordan [[not my favorite player, but I'll admit his greatness) still considered the best player of all time by most even though he's been retired for awhile? Because he was, that's why.

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OMG!!!! Now you're being intellectually lazy! "Because he was, that's why" doesn't tell me why he is considered the greatest player. You're going to have to come up with an actual argument if you are going to use Michael Jordan as an example. What if you are trying to convince a non sports fan...like me...of Jordan's greatness? Your little "Because that's why." isn't going to cut it!

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Just because something new and flashy comes along doesn't mean it's better, it just means it's new and flashy. There are a number of great NBA players today, it's awesome. For some reason Jordan is still held as the gold standard. Why? Because he was. There's not a person on this earth that can tell me rap is better than real soul or even in it's league, not a teenage, not a music producer, nobody. Why? Because it's not.

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Here's the problem, sir: you are judging today's music from a different era by that of another era with its own aesthetic.

Because he [Michael Jordan] was.

You still haven't told me how he was, or is, the gold standard.

If Curtis Mayfield's music and the music of other classic soul and funk acts don't do diddly squat for the youth of today,
then tell me soulster:
Why do they reference and sample it so got dang much?!?

Though I differ in my taste a lot from tsull [[if I remember correctly he doesn't like but I love the blues) I wouldn't say he
has a closed mind only that he has adopted standards and sticks to them. No music is beyond criticism but when we talk
about rap we're often talking about more than just music and I think a lot of what's being exhibited offends the sensibilities of many people. Even some of the youth of today. If you go to youtube and read the comments posted on
many classic soul and funk songs you will often find young people saying things like : Now this is music, not like that crap
we have today...or: I wish I was around when this came out...I see it all the time...

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Originally Posted by splanky

If Curtis Mayfield's music and the music of other classic soul and funk acts don't do diddly squat for the youth of today,
then tell me soulster:
Why do they reference and sample it so got dang much?!?

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They only care about the music part, not the lyrics.

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Though I differ in my taste a lot from tsull [[if I remember correctly he doesn't like but I love the blues) I wouldn't say he
has a closed mind only that he has adopted standards and sticks to them.

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We all have standards. Some draw the line at lyrics. Some draw the line at instrumentation, or type of music, and some stop at lyrical content. What I am saying is that It is not "better" to use the older music as a standard. That young lady who wrote the article cannot help it hip-hop is part of the world she was born into. It's what she knows. Why should she have to adopt yours, or my standard just to make us happy? Musical taste is ALL subjective. The older music is NOT objectively superior over today's music. If you want to extend that, the European classical music is NOT superior over R&B, and remember those who used to say that R&B was the music of African jungle-bunnies. Oh wait, those people are still around! In a way, you guys are playing into the same mindset.

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No music is beyond criticism but when we talk about rap we're often talking about more than just music and I think a lot of what's being exhibited offends the sensibilities of many people.

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Now we are getting somewhere! Offending sensebilities is actually what is at the heart of the criticism. It's really not about having "standards" or about the quality of the music, it's about cultural differences.

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Even some of the youth of today. If you go to youtube and read the comments posted on
many classic soul and funk songs you will often find young people saying things like : Now this is music, not like that crap
we have today...or: I wish I was around when this came out...I see it all the time...

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Sure, and there are just as many youth who have no use for the older music we hold dear. The minority is always more vocal about their displeasure with something.

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Originally Posted by soulster

While I am not defending this stuff, I will say that these rappers are not calling all women "bitches" and "ho"s.



Sure it is, but those songs just don't make much of an impact in a society that is used to a brasher style, meaner, and harder to reach. "papa Was A Rolling Stone"? yeah, that's nice, I like it too, but rapping about how how your drugged-up, abusive father beat your mother into her grave, molested your sister, and shoved a loaded gun in your mouth every morning, kind of tells it like it is for many angry youth, especially authorities, who are supposed to protect kids, don't do anything but blame you for being disrespectful. Stories about how some meth whore will give it up for anybody for another hit...in detail, gets noticed more than Donna Summer's "Bad Girls".

I really think a lot of this is about generation.



Yeah, it was powerful for the older generation, but it doesn't do diddly-squat for the youth of today.

I am a baby-boomer, but I keep my ears and eyes open. I interact with today's youth and know what their reality is, so I know they won't listen to polite and safe messages. They need to be hit over the head. Remember that most of our WWII generation parents weren't crack addicts or bi-polar hot messes like the parents that raised our youth.

I work with youth today, too, and worked for a year in a home for homeless youth. They're begging for leadership, not another person to scream at what their reality is.



Yeah it was dumbed down. It was as safe as milk and cookies.

In YOUR opinion.



If you think rap is so easy, YOU write and perform a rap tune...nd it better be good! :)


I could do it, I don't have a mixer. I played tenor sax for seven years, tell the rappers to do THAT? Goes both ways my friend, not just YOUR way.


And snobs are so blinded by their biases that they can't have an open mind.



Again, if you think rap is so easy, YOU do it! And do it well!

Why don't the rappers play instruments? I also played some guitar, clairinet, and piano. Tell them to do that, and do it well. I've written poetry and 100 percent sure I could write rap. How's this: Crack 'ho on my street, she gets beat, some sucka don't f--k her because now she's dead meat. ... I did that in 10 seconds off the top of my head. Give me time to work on it and yeah, I could write rap.



I repeat: can you do it better? Yes.



The reason you like old music is because you've been weaned on it. At some point you closed your mind. No, I know good from bad. If you don't know that a 5-star steakhouse is better than Bob's Greaseburger, why wake up in the morning, just kill yourself.



So, are you the gatekeeper of what "good" music is and what isn't? I'd like to know who appointed you. No, but I know rap sucks sh-t.



OMG!!!! Now you're being intellectually lazy! "Because he was, that's why" doesn't tell me why he is considered the greatest player. You're going to have to come up with an actual argument if you are going to use Michael Jordan as an example. What if you are trying to convince a non sports fan...like me...of Jordan's greatness? Your little "Because that's why." isn't going to cut it!

OK, sh-t, you haven't heard of MJ. OK, 6 NBA titles, highest playoff scoring average, multiple NBA MVP and defensive player of the year ... God, man, quit reaching just to win an argument.



Here's the problem, sir: you are judging today's music from a different era by that of another era with its own aesthetic. Uh, so by your standard, "Family Guy" is better acted than "Vertigo" ... whatever is new is best.

Because he [Michael Jordan] was.

You still haven't told me how he was, or is, the gold standard.

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See above on MJ.

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In YOUR opinion.

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It was "safe". The music had to cross over so they didn't want to get too heavy.

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I could do it, I don't have a mixer. I played tenor sax for seven years, tell the rappers to do THAT? Goes both ways my friend, not just YOUR way.

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You're gonna have to prove it to me. Most people who tell me that rap is easy can't do it. I'll bet a lot of rappers could learn to play a musical instrument like anyone else. Just because they rap doesn't mean they aren't capable of learning anything. What you've said seems to suggest that rappers are dumb, which is a very common misconception, based on stereotypes.

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Why don't the rappers play instruments?

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Why don't you rap?

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I also played some guitar, clairinet, and piano. Tell them to do that, and do it well.

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I'll bet many of them could. Don't play into the stereotype. I recall how White people said Black people couldn't play classical because they play jazz and blues. See how silly that is?

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I've written poetry and 100 percent sure I could write rap. How's this: Crack 'ho on my street, she gets beat, some sucka don't f--k her because now she's dead meat.

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That is so 90s! LOL! I will admit that I have not heard many rappers who can actually sing, though. Some rapping is just normal talking. Oh, wait, is that how rap got started? radio DJs talking over music? But, it has evolved into an art.Some have the talent, some don't, just as with singing or playing an instrument. Then, some just have to work at it harder than others.

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... I did that in 10 seconds off the top of my head. Give me time to work on it and yeah, I could write rap.

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But, can you rap? :D

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No, I know good from bad. If you don't know that a 5-star steakhouse is better than Bob's Greaseburger, why wake up in the morning, just kill yourself.

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Since what you have stated is subjective, it is not a fact. It's an opinion.

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No, but I know rap sucks sh-t.

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Do you generalize everything?

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OK, sh-t, you haven't heard of MJ. OK, 6 NBA titles, highest playoff scoring average, multiple NBA MVP and defensive player of the year ... God, man, quit reaching just to win an argument.

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I really haven't! I'm not a sports fan and I don't follow any sports. I just have no interest. I would be hard-pressed to name even three basketball teams! And, no, i'm not gay! LOL!

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Uh, so by your standard, "Family Guy" is better acted than "Vertigo" ... whatever is new is best.

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What's "Vertigo"? I don't watch much TV aside from the news and the occasional documentary.

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Because he [Michael Jordan] was.

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That statement tells absolutely nothing about why. If you are going to use Michael Jordan as an example to a non-sports fan, you will have to elaborate. All I know about the man is that he plays both basketball and baseball, and he's retired. That's it.

I do not mean for this exchange to become contentious. It is just a civil debate about the merits [[or lack thereof) rap music, and or the ability to rap. At least we both like the old stuff.

All the best, and peace to you!

Give the golden age of rap, which for me runs from 1985 to the deaths of Biggie and Tupac. I respect the fact that JayZ gave NYC [[the birthplace of Rap and Hip Hop) it's new anthem, but for the most part his music does absolutely nothing for me. Since 1997, I've had to cherry pick the rap hits that matter to me. Like any musical genre, it has seen it's highs [[Public Enemy, De La Soul) and lows [[Audio Two, most of the current landscape). But I will always assert that Rap and Hip Hop has done more to open the dialogue on race relations in this country far more than any other chapter in American popular music that has preceded it.

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Originally Posted by timmyfunk

Give the golden age of rap, which for me runs from 1985 to the deaths of Biggie and Tupac. I respect the fact that JayZ gave NYC [[the birthplace of Rap and Hip Hop) it's new anthem, but for the most part his music does absolutely nothing for me. Since 1997, I've had to cherry pick the rap hits that matter to me. Like any musical genre, it has seen it's highs [[Public Enemy, De La Soul) and lows [[Audio Two, most of the current landscape). But I will always assert that Rap and Hip Hop has done more to open the dialogue on race relations in this country far more than any other chapter in American popular music that has preceded it.

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Although I would extent the golden age of rap all the way back to 1981, I feel the same way. But, I also liked gangsta rap during the days of NWA and Ice-T, and 2-Live Crew.

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Originally Posted by soulster

Although I would extent the golden age of rap all the way back to 1981, I feel the same way. But, I also liked gangsta rap during the days of NWA and Ice-T, and 2-Live Crew.

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There were some interesting gems in the pre-1985 era, including Run DMC's first record, The Message, and White Lines. I see 1985 has the point where the genre just couldn't deflate itself, even if it wanted to. From King Of Rock and beyond, this is the point where Rap and Hip Hop starts it's global dominance.

1985 was the year hip-hop and rock were joined together, much to the outrage of a lot of bigoted Whites.

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Originally Posted by soulster

1985 was the year hip-hop and rock were joined together, much to the outrage of a lot of bigoted Whites.

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A concept finely tuned on the song "Walk This Way".

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Originally Posted by timmyfunk

A concept finely tuned on the song "Walk This Way".

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The very song Run D-M-C said they practiced on before they got famous.