http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...nap-story.html
I wasn't there, but the movie did portray Heller in a negative light.
Oh he created a problem that we are all still living with today! He was instrumental in encouraging and promoting "Gangsta Rap".Quote:
Originally Posted by soulster
Gangsta rap isn't a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
Oh yes it is, at least to a generation of young men attempting to live that life in Ohio. The gangs have gotten completely out of control there. All they ever listen to the Gangsta rap form of Hip-Hop. They shoot each other on the streets on sight. Shoot through well established neighborhoods with children present, then set up all of these obnoxious street "memorials". I've had my car broken into 3 times in the last 2 years by them. I have never had my car vandalized in New York.Quote:
Originally Posted by soulster
Does art imitate life or does life imitate art? As little as I appreciate gangsta rap, I'm pretty certain we'd have the same problems if the disaffected youth was blaring Count Basie and Duke Ellington through their stereos as we have with them playing NWA and 2 Short. [[Sorry, I'm too lazy to look up today's representatives of that sad genre.)
The problems with the communities are 100% the result of systemic economic disparities that prevents people from opportunities to advance. Thirsty people need water, hungry people need food, and hopeless people need hope. That's why life is so cheap and respect is not something they care to offer: they've been disrespected and their lives are cheap in the eyes of the government and a huge portion of society.
To wit: Ice-T broke the whole gangsta rap thing open with Colors, in which he described his life as a fictionalized gang banger in Los Angeles. Gangs and affiliated colors had been established in LA for decades before his record. His song reflected that reality, it didn't create it. As much as I hate gangsta rap, I wouldn't blame it for society's woes. Society's woes are to blame for it.
I believe it helped to spread that lifestyle to other parts of the country. There were no Crips or Bloods in other parts of the country up until the last 20 years or so. People do imitate "Art".Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Oz
Remember the story of "Doo-Wop"? It started on the streets of New York in the 50s and spread throughout the country. Doo Rags, rolled up jeans and hipster talk became the norm for many young people then.
You know that I live in Columbus, which has typically been a safe city. I clearly recall my cousin telling me that the Gangster Disciples [[when they were still the Vice Lords) were in a project near his house in the '70s. There was also a notorious unaffiliated gang a few blocks away from my school when I was in junior high in the mid-70s.
Granted, gangs did seem to rapidly grow in numbers after being sensationalized in song. But I wouldn't suggest that the music caused the problem. I think it's the other way around although with the songs, there was suddenly a reason for knuckleheads to do the stupid things that they do. The same can be said of Mexican narco ballads. But if words were the cause of crime, then Lloyd Price should be criticized for recording "Stagger Lee".
We discussed this issue several years back. We talked about the difference between violenceQuote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Oz
referenced in music in the earlier years compared to recent days and while none of completely agreed the issue still persists. I'll say again as I have here and in the real world
most listeners then knew the song was about the behavior of fictional characters most of the
time, while later folks took it as advisory rules for real life. I have enjoyed as I've said before
some of the Gangsta rappers, NWA, Geto Boyz, etc but I know what's fiction. Many young
minds do not. BTW, Crips, originally a Cali problem, became a problem in the 2000's in my
aunt's little home of Winnsboro, South Carolina...We can jump up and scream and shout about every cop's killing of unarmed black youth but what we do to ourselves and each
other for me is still as big a problem. In NY, it seems we can't even have parade celebrations
without someone, this year 2 young people 22 and 17, getting shot to death...oh, RIP Jerry...
whatever your motives...
I recall my folks taking my sister, my brother, and me to see Blaxploitation movies at the drive-in in the 70s. We saw some of the most reprehensible behavior imaginable by the "heroes" of those awful films. When I was in junior high, my brother and I slipped into the local cinema to watch more if them when he was ~15 and I was ~13 years old. Neither of us grew up to be criminally minded. We don't carry guns, do drugs, or commit crimes.
While I will say that the music affects the culture, it is not the problem. The problem is the general degradation of societal values. And to suggest that "we" need to get it together is to ignore the fact that most of us already have it together. It's much bigger than suggesting that "we" embrace respect for our communities. I do, as I'm sure most here do. The solution is a long-term systemic paradigm shift that ensures that every child has a reasonable chance to succeed in life. It's too late for this generation.
It's just too bad that our country is more than happy to spend more on prisons and less on education to address the symptoms instead of the cause of this BS.
You are blaming the symptom. You should blame the cause which is the lack of jobs, bad education, the lure of easy money by selling drugs and guns, the failure of parents to do their jobs of instilling good values, and institutional discrimination.Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
Well, there aren't any today. Further proof that the music is immaterial to the problem. If one wants to cite influences, try the NRA who promotes guns everywhere, and a culture that advocates violence. Blame the drug trade. Not just the illicit drugs, but the "legit" trade that pills over real treatment, and medicate the parents who produce kids with behavioral problems. Blame the parents, and our elected leaders who don't teach their children respect for others. More than music, blame Hollywood live action and superhero movies that promote violence as a way to solve problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Oz
Street gangs have been around a lot longer than rap music.
Nope, can't do that. You know why? These kids I am telling you about in Ohio, do not want to work. They do not apply for jobs of any kind. They had the FREE opportunity to get an education in the same public school system I attended which happens to be a pretty system. They preferred to skip school and "hang out". I agree the parents did not do their jobs because many were too busy going out to the "club" or worse. Still I will not give them a wholesale pass because I have seen and heard how they think and it is mostly negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by soulster
Let me add, I have lost all patience and any empathy I may have had for them since just a month ago they shot and killed one of the Crips just two doors down from my 91 year old aunt. Terrorizing her to the point where she will no longer sit out on her porch. They do not have all the excuses we use to give them. I want them to be locked up so they cannot hurt innocent people.
I agree with you, Marv. Yesterday, two of them shot and robbed a 73 year old man in Chicago who was doing nothing but watering his yard. They're way out of control. It's way too late for most of them; they are who they appear to be: feral and inhuman. But if the system that produces them is not changed, then we'd better get used to it.
They don't want to work because of the allure of making a fast buck by selling dope and stealing. That's not rap music's fault, that's everything I, and Jerry mentioned above.Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
I have little sympathy for killers. They should pay the price. Still, you started off by blaming gangsta rap music. My main point is that gangsta rap is the symptom, not the cause. If you were able to suddenly vanquish the existence of rap from the planet, we would still have the violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
Guys, don't let your emotional reaction control your rational thinking. We all see the killing, but we know what the real underlying causes are. You get nowhere attacking the lazy targets.
Nobody I know is saying Rap, gangsta or otherwise created the problems of violence inQuote:
Originally Posted by soulster
any community. We all know crime and violence are all old as humankind. But a lot of
hip hop sure the hell has abetted it for over 20 years now. Even when it's not "gangta" per se
a lot of hip hop just plain corrupts and co-opts any public atmosphere. Funny thing is over the past few years I've started to understand why some straight out racist think, act out and
come to the conclusions that they do. Not agree, but understand...With so many young folks
walking around rapping about what a thug they are, how many b*tches they f*ck, and
what they're N*ggas be doing...okay, maybe I don't want to hire this young man, rent to
him, give him a loan, accept him into this school...maybe he IS armed...And at cook-outs,
block parties, parades and festivals with 10,12,14 year old kids running around this music
is blasted....Anybody that doesn't have even just a little bit of a problem with that...well,
carry on...
And with genres like death metal and punk, would you understand people who didn't want to employ White kids, thinking that they were all devil worshipers and anarchists? Or would you understand if I ran away screaming from the nearly all White crowd that just left hockey game, having seen photos of White mobs standing, smiling around the bodies of Black men who are hanging from a tree?
There is never a reason to hold an opinion about one based on your experience with another. Generalizations based on race are ALWAYS wrong. If somebody presents himself to be a thug, then make whatever presumption you want. But if a kid cleans up and interviews better than the next guy, give him the job or the apartment. Otherwise, you are a racist.
What a lot of people forget or overlook is that in America you have the right to be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Oz
Whatever the perceived wrong is. You don't have the right to practice racism in your professional business or create a danger to the public or other individuals because of your
beliefs, no, but you have the right to think whatever you want, even if it's considered racist.
I said I understood the views of some of those who are racist , not agreed, and I have lived
among racists at different times in my life, even practicing ones. You say generalizations based on race are always wrong but the reality is people of all races do it every single day.
It's how this country came to be...
Marv sounds like he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by splanky
I'm saying that it had an influence, along with those "Hood" and "Gangsta" films of the late 80s and early 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by soulster
That is pretty much what I am saying. I talked to my nephew this week about this subject. He is in that age range where what's going on in the streets is of utmost importance to some. He agreed that this music has had an effect on his peer group and not in a productive way.Quote:
Originally Posted by splanky
Can anyone say that songs like "Ooh Child" or " I Think I Can Fly" would not have some effect on youth?
Here is brief sampling of gang members in Toledo, OH I referred to above. It looks like a music videos, but let me tell you, these guys are real and will shoot you without blinking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym1V0Dx1FxU
I think the real problem here is Pro Tools [[and it's cheaper incarnations) , and cellphone videos...In the good old days, these kids wouldn't have the know how or cash to go to a real recording studio or film production company to record this crap...only a few feature highly produced films to reflect parts of society...not knockout videos shoved in our faces every day through social media.....Just a glamorization of highly negative behavior...Life imitates art, art imitates life...In the final analysis...both factors influence each other...Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
As an employer who has hired and interviewed literally hundreds of people...I can say that ANY employer who does not hire the BEST and MOST QUALIFIED candidate for any job, regardless of factors such as race, religion, sex, etc etc etc, will likely lose out to the competition that does and will lead the hit parade of businesses that fail...I have always hired the person whom I felt would have the best chance of success...Anything else would be foolish, including hiring people I wouldn't be caught dead with outside the workplace, but if I don't hire them...the competition likely will...In this day and age in our highly competitive environment, hiring less than qualified over well qualified is a big mistake which can only lead to failure...
I agree Stu. I have been around long enough to witness the changes in society, which includes this current overly violent culture we experience here in America.Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBass1
That in a word is my problem with the current state of hip hop. I am not making a blanket
critique of the entire history and existence of the whole genre. Also, I have no problem
with an illustration of the negative aspects of the lives of many, hell, The Temptations did
that with Cloud Nine, The Spinner's with Ghetto Child and even Stevie Wonder with
Living For The City...It's the friggin' glamorization and boasting of these aspects that irks me.
Is it no surprise that several of these dumbass's that do such experience so drama in their
real life. Jail time is like a rite of passage for a lot rappers in the last 10 years or so, whether
it was Shyne, Ja Rule, Lyfe, C- Murder or the lastest fool Bobby Smurda. I am a 60 year old
black man who can barely relate to most black men 35 and under and I can remember growing up with kids and adults who all could enjoy most of the same music...What the funk
happened?...
I agree Marv and Splanky...The songs you mentioned [[Cloud Nine, Runaway Child, Ghetto Child, etc) compelled us to LOOK at each other...The stuff on records and video's today compel us to HIDE from each other...
I remember hearing NWA's song "Dope Man" in a disco 30 years ago. It sounded cool with a sample of "Funky Worm" driving the music. I bought the cassette the next day and, as was my way back then, unwrapped it and threw into my car stereo immediately. Now, I don't always listen to song lyrics, but seeing the track listing compelled me to pay attention.
Good Lord. I listened to it once and popped it out before hearing all of it again. It was like aural poison. My cousin Tony got in the car and saw the case on the console. He couldn't believe that I had it already and asked to borrow. "Take it," I said. "Keep it. I won't be playing it again."
Classic win-win.
You are really hitting it today Splanky! I remember enjoying the same music my father, mother, uncles etc enjoyed. They liked the Temptations, O'Jays, Marvin etc........so did I. I have had a problem understanding younger people that have appeared to have given up on life or improving their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by splanky
I know what you mean Jerry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Oz
That is pretty profound Stu. Music today compels us to hide from each other, whew! I think a lot of it is tied to Ageism! For some reason in this country [[U.S.), we value and gear most everything to youth. Adults spend money on music, yet they promote only music to roughly the 15 -25 year old crowd. I don't watch those music awards shows anymore because I do not recognize 70% of the artists. They don't do love songs or positive message songs much anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBass1