I think this should've been the follow up to "Ladder". Maybe with a bit of a remix, some added oomph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=172Qi732Olk
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I think this should've been the follow up to "Ladder". Maybe with a bit of a remix, some added oomph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=172Qi732Olk
I do prefer the box set version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8sXVHMcV9U
it's an excellent song but disagree about being a Ladder follow up. While it's great, Bill is especially a Fifth Dimension song. If the girls had released it as their own, it probably would have done ok but it wouldn't have established their new sound. something different from what other groups [[and from what DRATS) were doing.
Ladder is not only a great song but a great new sound. it was different from what other girl groups were releasing. these majestic tracks, the relevant lyrics about love and peace, with ethereal vocals, some modern synthesizer and studio effects dropped in, the subtle nod to the rock world with the heavier guitar.
so once Ladder was a smash, the next song should have built on that new sound. What we got [[Everybody) didn't fit the bill either. instead of ethereal we got muddy. instead of hints of rock we got hints of country. no majesty on this track whatsoever
I don't hear any resemblance between this and anything I've ever heard from the 5D. Their sound was completely different.
With the new Supremes was the goal was to keep the momentum of the first single. "Ladder" was great. "Everybody" just didn't cut it as a follow up. Motown was usually in the habit of attempting to follow up a big hit with a soundalike. So far as has been released, I don't think anything the ladies recorded sounded anything like "Ladder" except maybe...maybe..."Loving Country".
I can agree with passing over "Bill" in favor of something that doesn't sound like what the other groups were doing. But what song? I just don't see people running out to get "Everybody". At least with "Bill" it was relevant subject matter which resonated with the public. Maybe "Bill" wouldn't have been a number one- although with the changes I suggest, who knows- but I think it definitely would've been a top 10 cut. After that release "Stoned Love", whose impact surely wouldn't have been diminished by "Bill"'s success.
I think “Bill” as good a song as any to follow “UTLTTR”. Although ‘Right On’ is a solid album, there are not to many songs that scream hit single.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
As has been previously discussed before, a radically re-mixed “Everybody's Got The Right” is the best of few options. The song just needs more snap and oomph. Perhaps a shared lead with Mary might have lent the song a little more distinction.
Now i happen to think nearly ever track had hit single potential. It's my absolute favourite 70's Supremes album, and in my top 5 of all era's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
Personally i would have gone with an edit of Loving Country as the 2nd single, and then maybe Bill as the 3rd single assuming it had not been the B side to Ladder. It's an album that has brought me musical pleasure for several decades.
Incidentally Ms Ross really rated this album. I was amazed that she could even name a couple of the tracks, which she could not do for a few of her own albums.
Go figure.
I think RO should have had 2 singles - Ladder and an edit of Loving Country. Both would have been big hits and by that time it would have been the fall and time to move onto another project. get another album out into the fans' hands
otherwise, i think I Got Hurt or Baby Baby would have been the strongest songs for follow up singles to Ladder. Baby is a strong song but might have needed a little fine tuning of the lyrics. but the harder rock sound is appealing
Wait a min, just take a closer look, then we can try it again are all excellent album tracks but IMO as a standalone single, i don't know that they're strong enough or unique enough. definitely not as special as Ladder. i don't think they really would have done any better than Everybody, which was sort of a flop for the girls.
I really don’t have as much faith in “Loving Country” as others. . To me it sounds like the theme tune to a kitsch American soap drama. I still think”Bill” and “Everybody’s Got The Right” held the best chances of squeezing another hit out of the album. “UTLTTR” was a hard act to follow.
well here's an idea. the Right On album was solid and released in April. i entered the charts on June 6 at a VERY high #37. it peaked on the charts a few weeks later and then remained on the charts for a total of 19 weeks
Everybody was released on June 25, after RO had peaked. maybe it helped stretch the album's chart run but it also didn't push the album higher.
so maybe they should have moved onto something else altogether.
Together We Can Make Such Sweet Music was completed on May 16. so it certainly could have been released in June as a single and then been the lead single off of the new album, New Ways. Stoned Love would have been the follow up single.
thoughts?
as great as the tracks are on RO, would Together have just been a stronger single?
Don't know these songs , so this is just initial reaction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjM8BPxwsRc
Maybe LOVING COUNTRY needs a "country" tinge in its sound ? Otherwise it needs a new working title.
Hearing BILL for the first time , it's kind of exhausting trying to keep up with what is going on ....very wordy, waiting for a letter, she's at the train station , its the wrong guy , now she's kissing somebody by the coke machine ......Bill's mother has good news??
It's just a bit too long of a story line for a one note sentiment: missing "Bill" .
[[Is that what makes you think of the 5th dimension Sup , using "Bill" as the name? [[& what's with messin' with that name ?))
Maybe the record needs to change out , or it needs a pay off by song's end .....she goes to the train station one more time ....and lo and behold, there's her Bill, like the postman promised.
Something like TIE A YELLOW RIBBON ....with its final payofff .... there's a hundred yellow ribbons round the old oak tree ...
Also: There's something not "Supremes" about this ....we are losing our other two members with this anonymous, non-distinct background support. Buncha "oooos". It's just Jean, and A LOT of her , and some singalong singers that have no lines of their own. One other observation....I love Jean Terrell's voice but in this song I feel like she's perched on her high end for perpetuity.... does she ever come down , does she have a lower register?? [[ Actually I think its on THE LOVING COUNTRY that I started to sense my fatigue on her sound)
The arrangement is busy and terrific..... I'd like an instrumental "B" side please....
Boogie those are some good points about Bill. there is a TON of story to get through. and you're right, there isn't a payoff at the end of him arriving home.
I do think jean is strong on it and i prefer the lead vocal on the 45 to the album version. it's a bit more alive from Jean IMO. As an inclusion on the RO album, i think it's a good one. a bigger, bombastic affair with a bit more r&B flavor after we've had a some good standard pop songs, a couple gorgeous ballads, the rock inspired baby baby.
I never thought Bill would have been a good single. However, a couple of years back, I was drinking in a bar with some friends and it was played as part of the music track. I admit, it sounded fantastic. There was an energy and excitement to it that I don't think I heard when I bought the album. Now I think it might have been a great single for The Supremes.
I certainly think “Such Sweet Music” had more commercial potential then any of the other songs left on RO, nice as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I’ve always felt “Bill” was wasted as a B-side and should have been the follow-up to “Ladder”. The story line fit the times. There didn’t need to be closure at the end of the song because many families were facing similar uncertainty about their loved ones. The energy of the song made it radio friendly. It’s a long song at 4:00 minutes, I think it could have been edited to 3:00 minutes. I would remove the “coke machine” verse, 1:26 to 2:28, which doesn’t alter the story line at all.
“Everybody” seemed a bit lame as a single, especially as a follow-up to Ladder. “Together...Sweet Music” had a similar theme but a fresher sound. It also was a perfect introduction to a new sound and a forthcoming album.
Good point , this was a common circumstance then , concerned people at home each day hoping for the quick return of their soldiered loved one[[s). Perhaps a happy ending would seem to trivialize it??Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjeb
I have to say this song's storyline is not so hard to follow after a couple more listens , but it does jump around , the suggested editing could resolve that.
When the point of the song is something as heavy as the angst being caused by the Vietnam war, I tend to think the tone is too upbeat. The upbeatness could perhaps be heard as disrespectful of this experience going on for a lot of people at the time . [[?) And maybe the heavy element behind the storyline was part of Motown's concern for not releasing it for ongoing radio play.
On an entirely different thought , does 'BILL' sound a bit like a sped of version of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaNGtgYwSsU
Like elephants to prunes Boogie. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogiedown
This -and every other song on Right On including Loving Country - is pure album track. The first album desperately needed another pop follow up to UTLTTR. EGTRTL [[lol) is ok but no hit.
Bill is an ok album track and with its' production that's all it was ever gonna be.
I like all the songs on Right On but think some needed to be remixed if any of them were to be released as a single. Loving Country is a beautiful song but there definitely needs to be some work done to it. You can hear Jean clearly withholding her voice at some point between 1:40 and 1:45 as if someone is telling her not to outshine the background choir. It sounds odd. As for most songs I like, the intro is the most important part for me to say that this could be a single. Non, except Up the ladder, have that intro that says to me "this is a hit". I like the intro of "I got hurt" but the title for a start is too long and the rest of the song is ok but not a hit to me. Btw does anyone know who the male background singers are on "I got hurt"?
As for Life Beats. I always thought this was a missed opportunity. I love the change of direction for the girls but after the first minute it feels the song is just going on and on. Maybe they needed to work a bit more on this song.
BILL reminds me of LAST TIME I SAW HIM. Huge story line; a lot to get through in 3 minutes.
Although it wasn't included on RIGHT ON, I've always been partial to "THE DAY WILL COME BETWEEN SUNDAY AND MONDAY". A catchy title, and very background heavy. I think it was a miss not to include it on the album, and a much better single than GOT THE RIGHT TO LOVE.
hee hee. I still like that one!! come on, you don't hear the repeating of 'dunt-duh' throughout both ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
i'm gonna respond to both of your posts here in 1 reply. and love your examples and all. great points.Quote:
Originally Posted by TYK1986
i love "The Diana Ross Project" website and love reading Paul's reviews of the songs and albums. He had also included all of the 70s Sup albums so it's lots of fun to read. He writes about how many of the RO tracks are great but sound relatively the same. Jean was new to recording and he thought often approached songs in a very, very similar manner. hence a very consistent sound but one that lacks the variance, interest and excitement of a more seasoned recording artist. he notes in the Touch review of how gloriously she had evolved and grown. So the Jean albums make for a fun lesson in how this gifted singer grew
as for your comments on Loving Country, i could imagine that she WAS holding back. according to Mary's book, Frank had pulled Jean back some in the studio when she deviated too much from the melody or ad libbed riffs and runs. he allowed some but wanted to keep it in check. so as Jean was learning, she might have been trying to hold back a little and that comes through in spots like this
LC, as is, is way too long and divergent for a single. but with thoughtful editing, not only would the duration be shortened but it would streamline the piece too. a bit more emphasis on a traditional song structure. all of that could have been edited and then used as a single
Life Beats is a great song but it's a rambling song. it's wonderfully atmospheric and as an inclusion on an album like Touch would have been wonderful. But as a standalone concept that is being forced into 2:45 and used on radio, not so sure. Same thing goes for Time To Break Down. stunning on NW but if you edited it into a single and remove it from it's placement with that album, it's odd and sort of goes on and on into nothingness.
gotta love George. I remember not too long ago he shared an alt RO album lineup. I immediately made a playlist of it:Quote:
Originally Posted by marybrewster
Ladder
then we can try it again
the day will come
wait a minute
you move me
but i love you more
i got hurt
steppin on a dream
take a closer look
then i met you
life beats
loving country
My 1 change would be to replace Life Beats with Bill. and then Life Beats could have worked on Touch instead of Time and Love. T&L and Baby Baby would then go onto New Ways instead of Come Together and Na Na.
Nice enough song, but it didn't sound like a potential hit to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by marybrewster
agreed. just like in the 60s, the girls' hits really were pretty obvious in the 70s. Ladder, Stoned, Nathan. these songs just jump off their albums. I think Together could be pretty close to that. Loving Country too. River Deep is amazingly strong, especially given the weakness of Mag 7. even the other A&S tunes are frankly rather mediocre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebrock
Mag 7 is one of my fave albums of the Supremes. Anyway the alt line-up of Right On is interesting. Makes me wonder why they dropped Life Beats completely. It is definitely an interesting song but like I said goes on an on. "Bill" fits better on Right On as does You've got to pay the price. Not so keen on Steppin on a dream and feel this wasn't the finished product. I would put Life Beats on New ways as to give the album more new sounds and original songs. Side 1 is great as it is but side 2 with Na na, Is there a place and come together [[I don't mind this one) sound off on this album.
as a fan, i crave ALL of their music. the strong and weak, the hits and the misses. And i do listen to nearly all of it a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by TYK1986
I enjoy Mag 7 and the duets. but i don't know that i "like" them, if that makes sense. Levi and Jean are two of the most powerful singers at motown. and their respective groups were both amazing. IMO there are surprising few times when all of the elements come together properly for the duets. River is absolutely one of those. You Gotta Have Love certainly has some of the most amazing Jean moments - like on the extended fade we got with her ad libs. But the other elements of the song are lacking.
interestingly motown DID sort of break the pattern from the DRATS/Temps duets and the Tops/Sups actually recorded a large amount of original material. instead of just covers. but much of that original content is subpar.
As i said, the Sups were in a precarious position and needed to be hitting home runs to fully re-establish themselves and to move forward. the duets are mostly a strike out
How can you enjoy something but not like it at the same time? Sup you gotta explain that one more thoroughly.
I'm not wowed by the Supremes and Tops duets as a whole, but I do love some of it. None of the albums have an all around sound that I think made them attractive to the buying public at the time, which makes their chart positions unsurprising. Other than the first one, the albums have a dull sound. Very little of it has an "in your face" Motown vibe. So as whole albums, I hardly ever listen to them all the way through. I find my favorites and play those a lot.
what i mean is that i listen to ALL of the sups' music because i'm a die-hard fan. I Want A Guy is ghastly but i still sometimes listen to it for fun, along with Meet The Sups. I think the Jimmy Webb project was poorly executed and Beyond Myself has some screeches on it from Jean that rival cats in heat in an alleyway lol. but i still play it for the variety and fun of it. Same with Diana's hiccups phase, Flo's odd pronunciation on her Xmas solos, the background vocals being flat on the title track to High Energy.
not every single thing the group recorded is Grammy worthy. but i adore the group, what they stood for and represented, their history. i thoroughly enjoy listening to the masterpieces like the R&H album, The Boss album, singles like YCHL and Ladder. and the obscure gems like Sweet Dream Machine and How Long has that evening train been gone. and the duds too
some people have relegated less popular albums to the back of their music collection. I play all of the albums with some frequency.
Honestly, there's very little in the Supremes catalog that I would categorize as "bad" or "ghastly", as you say. Lol There's some stuff that just doesn't move me, and a lot of the Tops duets, some of the Scherrie stuff, some of the DRATS stuff, the JW album, this is stuff that I don't always make it a point to play. I don't love "I Want a Guy", but I do like it. I like almost all of the early stuff.
Their version of "My Guy" is pretty bad. I'm just like you in that I want everything the Supremes did. [[I'm hoping George and Andy will be able to do something creative with some of the stuff in the vault that might be incomplete, like only a verse recorded, or backing vocals laid, etc.) But if there's a Supremes song I could live without hearing, it's probably that one. It's about as karaoke as the original Supremes got.
hype fans like us have a much more relaxed definition of what's "good" or "bad" with a group. we're much much more forgiving.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
there are some things that, according to proper singing technique or training, would not be viewed as "good." and like any artist, there are some things that work better than others. but that's ok. it's all part of "different strokes for different folks"
a lot of critiquing i do of the girls or of songs is from a more traditional vocal training perspective. but again, that doesn't mean i don't listen to that song or album. and i still enjoy it because i love getting into ALL of their recordings.
Like you i'd LOVE to hear rehearsal tracks, incomplete ones, mistakes, etc. It would be fascinating to hear how it fits into the overall story of the group. what they were doing at that point in time.
I agree entirely with this. Singing about important things wasn't just important in itself - it would have helped cement a new modern and progressive image for the group.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjeb