20 Feet from Stardom

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/20_feet_from_stardom/#
If you haven't seen this movie, it's well worth it, with Stevie Wonder and Susaye Greene interviewed and Michale Jackson's backing singer Judith Hill featured. It's all about the backing singers, but alas, despite a tantalizing opening sequence, including vintage pictures of the original Vandellas, and original Supremes Mary and Flo, their stories were not told, nor were the Andantes featured. But is was engrossing, and moving. It's on Netflix now.

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Originally Posted by Sharpmoves

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/20_feet_from_stardom/#
If you haven't seen this movie, it's well worth it, with Stevie Wonder and Susaye Greene interviewed and Michale Jackson's backing singer Judith Hill featured. It's all about the backing singers, but alas, despite a tantalizing opening sequence, including vintage pictures of the original Vandellas, and original Supremes Mary and Flo, their stories were not told, nor were the Andantes featured. But is was engrossing, and moving. It's on Netflix now.

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It is a great film and I have seen it many times. But I was confused by the inclusion of the Vandellas, Supremes, and Bluebelles in the opening segment. I understand that Roz, Annette, and Mary and Flo were the background singers in their groups. But they weren't background singers in the sense that Lisa Fischer or Darlene Love were.

Lisa Fischer was a fake Marvelette for awhile in the 80's.

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Originally Posted by reese

It is a great film and I have seen it many times. But I was confused by the inclusion of the Vandellas, Supremes, and Bluebelles in the opening segment. I understand that Roz, Annette, and Mary and Flo were the background singers in their groups. But they weren't background singers in the sense that Lisa Fischer or Darlene Love were.

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Well...my question then would be...how many times must someone sing background to be considered a background singer? The people you question all sang background...and more than once.

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Originally Posted by midnight johnny

Well...my question then would be...how many times must someone sing background to be considered a background singer? The people you question all sang background...and more than once.

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Technically, Flo, Mary, Roz and Annette were members of a group, but in reality they were background singers to the lead singer of the group. As members of a group, they were not 20 feet from stardom. They were part of stardom. So they did not belong in the film.

Its interesting that no one ever called Maxine or Laverne Andrews background singers to Patti Andrews of the Andrews Sisters. Also, no one called Chris McGuire or Dottie McGuire background singers to Phyllis McGuire of the McGuire Sisters. That's because they sang harmony with the lead singer. The lead singer sang a solo spot in the song and the other two singers of the group stepped back. But the lead singer never sang in front of the other members of the group. And those two female groups from the fifties and forties had background singers on their records. Listen to and watch this song by the McGuire Sisters. In this McGuire Sisters record, you can hear the background singers along with the orchrestra in the intro of the song, thensee the group sing in harmony. and see the lead singer sing her solo part alone. To me, that is a true group. The Supremes and Vandellas were a lead singer with background singers. But I loved them. Just my opinion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSbkbXheqEU

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Originally Posted by midnight johnny

Well...my question then would be...how many times must someone sing background to be considered a background singer? The people you question all sang background...and more than once.

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In addition, both groups were background singers for other artists: The Vandellas for Marvin Gaye and the Supremes for Mary Wells.

Well the three groups at one point or another had a lead vocalist listed ahead of the act at one point [[ Martha Reeves & The Vandellas, Diana Ross & The Supremes, & Patti LaBelle & The Bluebelles). As those lineups changed due to solo careers [[Ross) or act image retooling [[Bluebelles to LaBelle) highlighting multiple lead vocalists [[Labelle again & the MSS Supremes) the background wasn't a place the rest of act was resigned to anymore. So, it was valid to say The Supremes, Vandellas, and Bluebelles were for those times background singers that their record labels didn't want you expecting lead vocals from.

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Originally Posted by mowest

In addition, both groups were background singers for other artists: The Vandellas for Marvin Gaye and the Supremes for Mary Wells.

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THAT was my point.

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Originally Posted by Glenpwood

Well the three groups at one point or another had a lead vocalist listed ahead of the act at one point [[ Martha Reeves & The Vandellas, Diana Ross & The Supremes, & Patti LaBelle & The Bluebelles). As those lineups changed due to solo careers [[Ross) or act image retooling [[Bluebelles to LaBelle) highlighting multiple lead vocalists [[Labelle again & the MSS Supremes) the background wasn't a place the rest of act was resigned to anymore. So, it was valid to say The Supremes, Vandellas, and Bluebelles were for those times background singers that their record labels didn't want you expecting lead vocals from.

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............Exactly!

Well, I agree that The Supremes & The Vandellas might not belong in a movie celebrating background singers. But, there should have been an Andante interviewed as they were the ultimate background singers, in my opinion. Still, the movie seemed to focus on background singers that wanted more/had more but still embraced their background status. Perhaps the Andantes didn't fit into that scenario.

I just saw this movie yesterday and thought the same thing. Why no Andantes??

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Originally Posted by mowest

In addition, both groups were background singers for other artists: The Vandellas for Marvin Gaye and the Supremes for Mary Wells.

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Then Cher should be considered too. She was a background singer. But if she was 20 feet from stardom , she sure as hell reached it and surpassed it. Even though Flo and Mary were used as background singers on their records [[and sometimes not used at all) they were Supremes and performed as stars with Diana and were paid equally. They were not twenty feet from stardom. They could not continue that stardom after leaving The Supremes, but Mary has done a good job of having a career by using the stardom of The Supremes

I would not consider the Supremes as a background group like lets say the Blossoms, but they did do their share of back up work in the early days for Mable John, Marvin Gaye and Mary Wells to name a few. The Vandellas did for Marvin as well. After watching the movie a few times I would say that the focus was more on the various session singers who aspired for more. Many people sang in the background but a lot of the ladies here were major session singers.

I think the Supremes [[e.g. Mary, Flo, and Cindy) became more and more background singers as time progressed. Their vocals, in comparison with Diana's, grew smaller and smaller and, on record, softer and softer. Eventually, they were all out replaced by the Andantes. In the sense that their parts could be replaced/mixed with other singers, they did become background singers. Let's also not forget that although Florence, Mary, and Cindy were part of the stardom, whose name does the public remember today? Diana's. I think that's the struggle the film attempts to highlight - the hard work leading up to, in the long run, a relatively small amount of recognition.

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Originally Posted by thommg

Well, I agree that The Supremes & The Vandellas might not belong in a movie celebrating background singers. But, there should have been an Andante interviewed as they were the ultimate background singers, in my opinion. Still, the movie seemed to focus on background singers that wanted more/had more but still embraced their background status. Perhaps the Andantes didn't fit into that scenario.

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Why wouldn't they? If the Andantes weren't in it, then it didn't really make any sense to include footage of actual girl groups who were stars [[Supremes, Vandellas, Bluebelles/Labelle, etc.).

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Originally Posted by antceleb12

I think the Supremes [[e.g. Mary, Flo, and Cindy) became more and more background singers as time progressed. Their vocals, in comparison with Diana's, grew smaller and smaller and, on record, softer and softer. Eventually, they were all out replaced by the Andantes. In the sense that their parts could be replaced/mixed with other singers, they did become background singers. Let's also not forget that although Florence, Mary, and Cindy were part of the stardom, whose name does the public remember today? Diana's. I think that's the struggle the film attempts to highlight - the hard work leading up to, in the long run, a relatively small amount of recognition.

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There's a difference between background singers and session singers. A group has to have background singers and many groups were okay with it [[not too many groups didn't have a designated lead singer so the Supremes were unique in that sense...or maybe their thing was just too raw and Berry had to hone it in somehow?). The Supremes had background singers but the Andantes fit the description of singers featured on 20 Feet from Stardom.

Last I checked, Mary, Flo and Diana were each seen riding in yachts and going on shopping sprees in London, Paris and New York. The Andantes or Blossoms weren't.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

There's a difference between background singers and session singers. A group has to have background singers and many groups were okay with it [[not too many groups didn't have a designated lead singer so the Supremes were unique in that sense...or maybe their thing was just too raw and Berry had to hone it in somehow?). The Supremes had background singers but the Andantes fit the description of singers featured on 20 Feet from Stardom.

Last I checked, Mary, Flo and Diana were each seen riding in yachts and going on shopping sprees in London, Paris and New York. The Andantes or Blossoms weren't.

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My point is that Mary, Flo, and Diana each put in their dues and worked HARD. But who is it the public knows today? Diana. And that's what, I think, the film was trying to get at. Yachts and shopping sprees have nothing to do with it. Darlene Love and Lisa Fischer don't sing for the royal treatment. The point of the film to shine light on those whose credit is diminished in comparison to those for whom they provided backup and, today, Mary and Flo fit that bill to a T.

^ Well the public don't care about details, their only thing is the music. Not everyone is gonna be a Motown buff. If you know who Mary and Florence are, they're not that unknown. Berry Gordy had it set up that certain people will be better known than others and that was due to who he felt had star quality or the knack to make it. Diana, Marvin and Stevie became such figureheads and icons in the Motown stratosphere that you can't blame the public for not knowing everyone else. They know who Martha Reeves is for instance but they won't bother asking about the other Vandellas and don't get me started with the Marvelettes who anyone hardly knows unless you're a Motown/soul music buff.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

^ Well the public don't care about details, their only thing is the music. Not everyone is gonna be a Motown buff. If you know who Mary and Florence are, they're not that unknown. Berry Gordy had it set up that certain people will be better known than others and that was due to who he felt had star quality or the knack to make it. Diana, Marvin and Stevie became such figureheads and icons in the Motown stratosphere that you can't blame the public for not knowing everyone else. They know who Martha Reeves is for instance but they won't bother asking about the other Vandellas and don't get me started with the Marvelettes who anyone hardly knows unless you're a Motown/soul music buff.

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Again. You are missing the point. It's not about fame. Berry Gordy and Martha Reeves and Stevie Wonder have nothing to do with it. This isn't a blame game. It's about going beyond the lead singer. When people talk about being a singer, it's always about the lead singer. Whether you're a session singer or a singer in the background of a group, it's a whole different ballgame being a singer that's NOT upfront. This movie is not just about session singers, as Darlene Love was not just a session singer [[Blossoms, Blue Jeans, her own solo records...). It's about the people BEHIND the lead singer. And Mary, Flo, Betty, Roz, etc. were those behind the scenes. Frankly, I would have loved to have seen a bigger segment on background singers in groups.

By the way, if the public didn't care about the details, then this movie would have been a flop. It's ALL about details...

Although I very much enjoyed this doc, it was still a huge disappointment for me. I cannot begin to describe the huge hole of the great background singer groups who were left out, for whatever reason. The Andantes of course. The Sweethearts of the Philly Sound: Evette Benton, Carla Benson, Barbara Ingram. who are only THE best after The Andantes and I once saw in concert with The Spinners.

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Originally Posted by tdoa

Although I very much enjoyed this doc, it was still a huge disappointment for me. I cannot begin to describe the huge hole of the great background singer groups who were left out, for whatever reason. The Andantes of course. The Sweethearts of the Philly Sound: Evette Benton, Carla Benson, Barbara Ingram. who are only THE best after The Andantes and I once saw in concert with The Spinners.

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Yes, indeed, "The Sweeties" are puzzlingly absent. They sang on so many classic sides; they're every bit as defining to their milieu as The Andantes were to theirs. I've seen The Sweeties backing Patti LaBelle in person about three times; perfection.

Hi!

Carla Benson talks shortly about that doc at

http://www.soulexpress.net/deep6_2014.htm#carlabenson

Best regards
Heikki