Wasn't this when the Temptations slipped Mary a note saying to "stick by Florence"?
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Wasn't this when the Temptations slipped Mary a note saying to "stick by Florence"?
According to Mary in DREAMGIRL, after the girls' Forest Hills date, she hung around NY for a few days. At her hotel, she received a telegram from the Tempts urging her to stick by Flo, as she could be next. She places this as early August of '67. [I think the Forest Hills date was July 29.]
In his book, Otis confirmed that Melvin sent Mary such a telegram.
I would have really loved to hear the two of them on a slow love song. I love the Supremes and Tempts version of "Aint Nothing Like the Real Thing" [[little known personal trivia fact: I actually prefer this version to Marvin and Tammi's). I think for Dennis- and Paul too, on the songs he sang with Diana- to have had such rough voices, they actually complimented Diana's sweet tone very well. While I believe Dennis was the perfect replacement for David, one difference in their style was that David had a soft, tender, sensual side to his voice that I think Dennis lacked. Pairing that side of David with Diana, I believe, would have resulted in something fantastic.
Because both Diana [[tied with Aretha) and Marvin Gaye sit atop my favorite solo singer lists, their duet album holds a special place in my heart. I love it and I'm so thankful that it exists. But in an alternate reality, it might have been just as nice if maybe Gordy had thought David's career needed a jolt so why not pair him with the queen of the label, and had them do the duet album. But like I said, that would be an alternate reality. In the real world we know there at least a couple reasons why this wouldn't have been on the to-do list.
If you pay close attention, she and David are really standing next to one another. He ends up moving back slightly to take his bow. She does not. Now the question is was this the way it was rehearsed? Or were they simply told to take their bows and left to use their own judgement on how that should look? I think she and David should have either held hands and bowed or put an arm around the other and bowed. I also think it's quite possible David was instructed to take that step back, leaving Diana in front. After all, it's three acts up there: the Tempts, the Supremes, and Diana Ross. The name was changed in order to command more money...or so we've been told. Gotta make it look like CBS is getting their money's worth.:cool:
Or could be Diana just took her bow where she was, not thinking Ollie would come around 100 years later to analyze it. Had she known, she might have run and hid behind everyone else to show her humbleness.:p
They are definitely not standing next to one another when David steps slightly back to take his bow. Diana moves a smidge further forward when she stretches her arms out.
To be honest, i really can’t imagine David complying if instructed to step back.
I agree it would have been nice for David & Di to at least acknowledge each other at the end of the song, being why i posted about Diana being in her own little bubble
Not the most important thing in the scheme of things, but no less so then missing beads on frocks or if Marlene sang the second oooh on “Can’t Hurry Love”.;)
Good stuff. I've been meaning to get around to this. I think Melvin joining The Supremes is one of the best moments here. It brings the two groups together. It seems spontaneous, like he just can't help himself ....but obviously every step is choreographed as is every camera shot [which also hasn't been discussed yet].
What I love is the way Melvin grips the two girls for the finale, it just feels right.... although I'm sure some corners would find it sexist.
However
it also underlines the way David and Diana DON'T come together at the end. They don't likewise in any way embrace each other or hold hands or even acknowledge one another. It makes Diana very much seem self absorbed. It could very well be that David was told to back off so that the closing was all eyes on Diana.
The camera shots favor David when they are together and they cut away when Diana is singing her parts making it hard to know how those two were interacting throughout ...their eye contact , smiles...or lack of ...
Diana's left arms does go in front of David's body so she is not side by side.
But now studying all this further, I see Eddie Kendricks is purposely close behind them at the end, to get him into the shot ....and now I think it is his voice that is held here the longest. I think his placement was planned and then all The Temptations step back including Eddie.
I don’t see things being done behind anybody’s back, I don’t see any reason to assume anything was done behind anyone’s back. I do see a photograph where David Ruffin, and diana ross are clearly having a conversation, it doesn’t appear unpleasant to me, maybe they are discussing the weather, or mink, lined, limousines, or, perhaps they are discussing, in fact, this medley.
at 4:30 for whatever reason Diana has truncated her final note, and throws up her arms to invite applause while David can still be seen singing into his microphone and Eddie's voice especially is heard long after. She takes the lead bowing and David is just a bit behind her lead with his bow which is much more modest.
They might be discussing the nerve of Eddie insisting on a singing part and Diana's saying, "Mary better not try that.":pQuote:
I don’t see things being done behind anybody’s back, I don’t see any reason to assume anything was done behind anyone’s back. I do see a photograph where David Ruffin, and diana ross are clearly having a conversation, it doesn’t appear unpleasant to me, maybe they are discussing the weather, or mink, lined, limousines, or, perhaps they are discussing, in fact, this medley.
I give this performance by all of them a solid "A". If anything is going awry, I'm not perceiving it. I do think David outsings her [and it could be argued Diana surrenders at the end] and their dueting is not warm and fuzzy, but David has no experience sharing the stage with a female. His stage styling comes from duking it out with a bunch of guys.
Having watched it again, i finally realise just how far forward Diana actually ends up.
The fact she and David offer no acknowledgement of each other, coupled with Diana’s exaggerated swooping bows makes her appear leading lady with a supporting cast lol.
lol
It does appear that that is the plan here. Diana is the driving force throughout. Perhaps she really is gloriously celebrating at the end how well they [she] pulled off this rather complex staging. And this is the new DIANA ROSS and the Supremes [with the Temptations] that is being projected here. All The Temptations step back together at the end , which tells me that Diana is to be out front in the end....with or without David, but I think it was meant to be without [which would add fuel to any claim that David was a bit disgruntled with this whole affair....if he was ]
New question: [reese?]
Ed Sullivan's show originally aired live. I believe by this time , the late sixties, it was recorded live, taped, then aired later ....anyone know how that worked? The timeline??
Lol, RanRan. I doubt we'll be analyzing this 100 years from November 1967 [and definitely not 100 years from now]!
Interesting questions, opining and imagineering here, though. I agree with you and others that Diana & David are really basically next to each other. But by November 1967, just after the group name change, I think Motown's plans were becoming clearer.
this tv appearance had to have hugely influential in the Motown negotiations with NBC regarding the tv specials. the Supremes were already a staple of tv programming and even during the end of the Flo years, their material was getting much more sophisticated and challenging - like Millie/Rose/Mame on Sullivan and the new Lady Is A Tramp/Let's Get Away medley on Tonight Show. so i imagine it a rather easy sell but the excitement and buzz after this Sullivan duets segment probably was icing on the cake.
and TCB and GIT were really all about presenting Diana Ross as a versatile entertainer. she was the hostess, the mistress of ceremonies. she lead the overall show, sang lead, performed a variety of material beyond her own hits.
and that also lead to them hosting the Hollywood Palace twice. the first was in March 69 and then again in October. Now diana was interacting with a variety of guests and stars too.
so absolutely this was a plan. Some of the motown people have described getting the Supremes ready for the copa as planning a military invasion. every detail and every situation was reviewed and prepared for. same with Diana's solo launch. the only thing not perfectly complying with the plan was the lack of a hit single - that is until Someday finally came about.
I forgot that Tony Turner was the only one who added that part of David acting a fool over the key change. Otis' recollection might've been a lot different that David and the other Tempts WERE probably upset but being professionals, they worked their way around it. Which is why it seemed so easy for them to transition when Diana began singing their song.
Whenever I hear/consider stories about Diana’s behavior [[especially during the 60’s), I just try to remember that she had Berry egging her on, too; her natural all-consuming ambition and perfectionism coupled with his undoubtedly brash encouragement to shine at all costs is a potent combo for a young person…it’s really surprising in retrospect that she didn’t have more breakdowns/episodes as a result of the “Motown machine”. She’s one tough broad!
Alright , so we're on to page three and maybe its time to get back to reviewing some of the claims made on this youtube presentation.
But first,
I've now watched this TV Supremes /Temptations performance enough that I just about know it inside and out , this after having never seen it before at the outset of this thread.
Which is something to remember . This performance was broadcast 'live'?? --- as a one-time event....the audience watched it fleetingly and moved on to spinning plates or whatever came next on the show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhoos1oY404imagine doing this live, talk about adrenaline rush!
Nowadays we can freeze frame it , back it up, replay it over and over to fully absorb it and better dissect it.
When doing so, I'm certainly able to appreciate it all the more. Diana Ross had a huge task here. She was like the ringleader of a three ring circus, she was the unifying part of eight people on stage for a long, action-packed, four-minute set. David Ruffin joins her.
Diana takes it all on from the very first note singing solo. And she is singing here three songs that are not even her own ....although you'd never know it as she pulls them off so seamlessly.
They also interject a non-song that's blended into I'M LOSIN' YOU that they should have recorded as a song/single in of its own called, "[YOU GOT TO ] FEEL IT". Excellent energy and sharing of the two groups vocally .
There is a lot going on here.. a packed stage to start with, several songs [five] to present and blend. There are multiple stages and heights with members moving off and on, with both solo and shared parts of singing and dancing.
As the ringleader, Diana Ross has every right to take a deep bow out front at the end. I sense in her not a gesture of "look at me", but more of a bow of satisfaction and pride that it all went so well....an "Alright, I did this!" bow.
I bet the control room was also taking a big bow at the end. Tight camera work with various close-ups and wide shots with a lot of activity to capture, all done flawlessly.
A+ does not seem too high a mark to give this performance... by all :cool:.....is there even one thing that misses the mark here ....
it should also be remembered that she was only 25 when she LEFT the supremes. if each of us thinks backs to when we were in school or when we were young and in first jobs, there are probably scores of examples of dumb things we did. how we handled a situation, how we responded to someone, etc. and probably none of us were in situations as tumultuous or as stressful as what DMF and C were facing.
even mary had sort of revised her POV on things in Sup Faith. she said that upon reflection, a lot of the problems of the original group grew out of their age and trying to deal with things. and that many of the troubles weren't really Diana but motown. I wish she had maybe brought that perspective out in the Dreamgirl book a bit more.
Boy you and I have come a long way to arrive at this line of thinking Ollie!!...or should I say I certainly have anyway.
I was noticing if anything counters the breakneck rhythm of this performance, its the audience. The songs come and go so quickly, they seem unsure when to clap or if they should clap at all, making their responses come across as less than enthusiastic. .
I get a kick out of [half of] Ed Sullivan seen coming in and clapping[?] in the final shot, he's about just out of camera view from the performance ...I guess he's entering to chat with them right after [?]. Diana looks to him and without missing a beat, blows him a kiss.
Ed didn't speak with the Supremes after this performance. Later in the show, they did GREENSLEEVES / THOU SWELL and Ed called them over for a VERY quick chat. I think he mentioned someone else who also sang that song, Diana said "Good, you like it?," laughed, and they walked offstage.
Good summation, Boogie. :) I loved seeing this performance again. I definitely give it an A, but an A+ doesn't seem too high. Neither the performance nor your summary misses any mark. I appreciate YouTube, if not always the YouTube posters, for what it brings to us, [and I definitely skip the comments sections].
How nice of you lucky!:) Thanks!Quote:
LUCKY:
Good summation, Boogie. :) I loved seeing this performance again. I definitely give it an A, but an A+ doesn't seem too high. Neither the performance nor your summary misses any mark. I appreciate YouTube, if not always the YouTube posters, for what it brings to us, [and I definitely skip the comments sections].
A solid "A" for sure.
IF
I'm seeking out any flaws , even the smallest, is it my imagination or does Diana slip just a bit at 2:03 when singing MY GUY ....sounds like an extra word is in there???
Cute moment @ 4:27 when Otis makes sure he's in the camera shot !
One error in the performance - starting at 3:56 until 4:12 Diana is not on camera even though she is the real star and she is singing. I am not sure who made that decision, but Ruffin is not Ross in beauty nor star power. I was screaming to myself “show Diana.”
Likewise, when The Doors were on TV singing Touch Me, the camera focused on a horn player no one cared about rather than showing the great Jim Morrison grooving to the instrumental break. Stupid mistake by some bone-head. It was a missed opportunity for the world to have more of Morrison on film.
Likewise again, during interviews with big stars, why the hell is the camera on the interviewer at all? The audience only wants to see the star and their facial expressions when the questions are being asked. Barbara Walters and Oprah were the biggest egotists insisting they get equal camera time. Most interviewers today are also camera hogs.
i'm not 100% sure it's true but i have a hunch it would likely have been. in the movie Dreamgirls during the Heavy tv performance scene, the "berry gordy" figure is in the control room with the staff and helping direct the cameras and which shot to use. this wouldn't surprise me at all. hell - Randy tells a story of famed photographer Harry Langdon actually letting Berry use his camera!! that's a major breech of etiquette so if that could happen, i don't see any doubt in the idea that Berry would have been helping direct the action in the booth. and so having more camera time for diana, minimizing individual shots of others or just doing group shots when not on diana.
Yes some of the camera shots maybe missed certain elements ....like how Diana and David were relating to each other as they co-sang , and yes at times she is singing off camera , but then there is a lot going on on stage and only one thing can be shown at a time. Overall the flow is very good I think and the important elements captured.Quote:
circa: One error in the performance - starting at 3:56 until 4:12 Diana is not on camera even though she is the real star and she is singing. I am not sure who made that decision, but Ruffin is not Ross in beauty nor star power. I was screaming to myself “show Diana.”
There are a couple of shots where Diana's dress seems awfully short. :o
whoa ! They did a second performance ???
As if this routine wasn't enough !!
Maybe David played it cool and held back until then and that's when he got his 'revenge'!!
okay !! so we've got more to add to this saga !:eek:
Temptations sing:
HELLO YOUNG LOVERS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQhc038vF0U
DON'T LOOK BACK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avRU_iFwDiM
GREENSLEEVES/THOU SWELL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YvS4ZHpIAg
IN AND OUT OF LOVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1whMWS96waw